Gone back to dc

[PostModN66]

Interesting. I have been 'definitely going over to DCC' for some time but put it on ice because of the cost of chipping my trains. As time goes by, I become less and less enthused to convert 

Doesn't float my boat either.  The main advantage to me of DCC is that lights stay on when the train stops, but that seems a low return for the extra effort in chipping the locos, and the operational hassle of having to select a loco before you can drive it.

Also, I like the satisfaction of designing and wiring the cab control and sections and getting it all to work!  I guess I am more a signalman than a train driver (and actually have another hobby of operating a preserved signal box).  And from the advice that seems to be given, DCC seems more hassle to wire with all those droppers, busses and modified points.

I guess one day I will be forced to go DCC when all locos come ready-chipped and DC controllers are no longer produced, but until then, I am very happy in a DC world!

Cheers  Jon 

[d-a-n]

I did consider going DCC for increased shunting play value but I like the Kato transformer with it's ultra convenient clip-on point switches, I'd have to give all that up if I went DCC (or there would be some expensive solution to keep them. DC ain't difficult!

An interesting trend (going from DCC to DC) if there are more than just a handful of people doing it. In the photography world there are just a handful of people bucking the trend and going from digital to film but they really are rarities.

There's more than a few! The rise of the 'Lomography' brand has made trendy cheap plastic cameras inspired by the soviet era ones people didn't want in the 60s/70s/80s to give them the unusual effects only plastic lenses/cheap film/light leaks gives. I myself shoot a Canon F1 for fun over my full frame Canon 6D work cameras as I want very high image quality out of the convenient 135 format, as well as using something which focuses nicely (better than my £1000+ L series lenses) and is well built.
Case study of why film can make more sense than digital:
A friend who shoots his 10mp £200 crop sensor digital SLR is disappointed with how wide he can go for his once every 2 month landscape shoots. A 18-55mm lens is equivalent to 29mm-88mm is too narrow/normal so the next port of call is the 10-22 (16mm- 35mm equivalent) but this is about £420 secondhand. I suggested a £100 film SLR setup with a 17, 19 or 24mm lens, loaded with Fujifilm Velvia which, when properly scanned, will yield an image equivalent to a 40 or 50mp camera. So in effect, a 50mp full frame digital camera for £100!!

[Malc]

Just to chuck in my half penny's worth, I use both systems. My layout is wired for DCC, with point control on a mimic panel with a probe. The layout has a 5 pin DIN socket on the edge and my 2 controllers have plugs on them. I have about 15 Chipped and about 10 unchipped locos. I convert the DC locos when I can afford to, or am able to.

[IanUK]

Personally I do not think DC is going anywhere, as we all know when you open your shiny new expensive, intelligent DCC loco the first thing the instructions say is to "Run it in using DC" so really you need to purchase a DC controller anyway to look after your loco.

As relative newbie to this hobby I have gone the DCC route, but the more I get into it the more I think I have gone the wrong route. I feel DCC locos are not as wide spread to purchase off the shelf, and any locos I have an interest in are either none existent or I will have to buy DC and get them converted.

Just recently I was looking for a class 170 in London Midland, I could get DC no problems, DCC not a sniff. I settled for a class 350 4 car unit in the same livery as a compromise, but this requires 3 decoders which will nearly cost as much as the train itself!

Now I am lucky that I have good disposable income and SWMBO doesn't really care what I do, but even I will draw the line at spending above £75 to get a couple of LED's to go from white to red. So at the moment the jury is still out on this loco as to whether I keep it or chuck it on ebay. Actually I do not know whether to chuck the whole lot on there and go DC or even go to the dark side.

I feel sometimes with this DCC hobby we are being held to ransom over the cost of these micro chips, we all know micro chips are "cheap as chips" you can go to Tesco's and buy a tablet computer for around £80-£100 bristling with micro chips that will do a bit more than make a train go backwards and forwards and turn the lights white to red.

Nuff said.

Ian.

[kevin141]

Interesting

You won't get away without track and pick up cleaning though

I know but it is much easier on dc plus being a old tv and video repair man there is still some good switch cleaner products out there so much easier to keep loco and track running
kevin

Kevin apart from what the majority of us know about, to which products are you referring?

Regards, Peter.

I had full dynamis system pro box as well it worked fine for me i got it because i liked the wireless idea tv remote idea if you like but it was all the other messing about that got to me in the end the attraction of being able to take the loco out of the box and running is the main reason for going back to dc so you can often pick up older locos and know you can just run them after a service so for me that is what i  do .
kevin141

[Les1952]

I actually have two layouts on the go at the moment, one analogue and one DCC.

Furtwangen Ost is analogue and will remain so- trams and small Continental locos- the locos could be chipped but the trams are a sight more difficult.  Added to that the layout is complete and on the exhibition circuit, so why change it?

Hawthorn Dene was a different matter- I had got all the droppers in and the track soak tested with everything going down to three pairs of wires.  To finish the job as analogue would have involved making and wiring three panels with a total of well over 50 sections to unlink and wire to separate switches, buying three new controllers and two new transformers.  I also had the advantage of being able to sell a number of locos and stock I was supplying to a different pair of exhibition layouts- because their owner had sold the layouts on.  This money has covered the cost of chipping locos for Hawthorn Dene.

HD's points are all "digital"- in the fiddle yard worked by the operator's digits (fingers) and in the colliery by wire-in-tube (and fingers- digits- to work the levers...    With Powercabs the three pairs of wires were joined to make a single pair to the controllers- advantage is that either cab can control any loco on any of the three physically separate (but electrically linked) circuits on the layout.

HD is my second excursion into DCC- the first ended when I changed from US to UK outline quite a few years back.  As far as I'm concerned it is "horses for courses"- no two people have the same experience or circumstances.

All the very best
Les

[talisman56]

... I did a bit of research and bought an NCE Powercab at a very reasonable £135 from digitrains ...

Yes it costs an extra £20 'ish per loco, plus accessory decoders (£400 'ish), and hand sets (£250..) but I couldn't revert to DC after using this setup…

Does the £250 for handsets include the £135 for the Powercab?

In any case, £650 + £20 per loco is a pretty large amount of dosh... think how many additional locos and coaches could be bought with that money...

My layout is DC and I'm not of the inclination to change to DCC - particularly because of the old stuff I've got, and has anyone managed to get a chip in a 'Terrier' yet?

I think it's horses for courses, if you're happy with DC then go for it - and the same if you're happy with DCC...

[ParkeNd]

I did consider going DCC for increased shunting play value but I like the Kato transformer with it's ultra convenient clip-on point switches, I'd have to give all that up if I went DCC (or there would be some expensive solution to keep them. DC ain't difficult!

An interesting trend (going from DCC to DC) if there are more than just a handful of people doing it. In the photography world there are just a handful of people bucking the trend and going from digital to film but they really are rarities.

There's more than a few! The rise of the 'Lomography' brand has made trendy cheap plastic cameras inspired by the soviet era ones people didn't want in the 60s/70s/80s to give them the unusual effects only plastic lenses/cheap film/light leaks gives. I myself shoot a Canon F1 for fun over my full frame Canon 6D work cameras as I want very high image quality out of the convenient 135 format, as well as using something which focuses nicely (better than my £1000+ L series lenses) and is well built.
Case study of why film can make more sense than digital:
A friend who shoots his 10mp £200 crop sensor digital SLR is disappointed with how wide he can go for his once every 2 month landscape shoots. A 18-55mm lens is equivalent to 29mm-88mm is too narrow/normal so the next port of call is the 10-22 (16mm- 35mm equivalent) but this is about £420 secondhand. I suggested a £100 film SLR setup with a 17, 19 or 24mm lens, loaded with Fujifilm Velvia which, when properly scanned, will yield an image equivalent to a 40 or 50mp camera. So in effect, a 50mp full frame digital camera for £100!!

Out of context I know - but I use a Nikon D700 full frame with 24-70 f/2.8, and 18-35 lenses. And a Nikon F2 Photomic with the same lenses. But I agree that crop sensor digital is inferior to both.

However, back in context, I would think that the advances made with cheap high megapixel plastic bodied digital cameras in terms of price/performance ratio could be mirrored in DCC. I'm a DC user because of the cost of DCC but I would suggest that price/performance ratio could also improve there too. If that happens it could halt the swing - if it exists to any great extent.

[shandy]

... I did a bit of research and bought an NCE Powercab at a very reasonable £135 from digitrains ...

Yes it costs an extra £20 'ish per loco, plus accessory decoders (£400 'ish), and hand sets (£250..) but I couldn't revert to DC after using this setup…

Does the £250 for handsets include the £135 for the Powercab?

In any case, £650 + £20 per loco is a pretty large amount of dosh... think how many additional locos and coaches could be bought with that money...

My layout is DC and I'm not of the inclination to change to DCC - particularly because of the old stuff I've got, and has anyone managed to get a chip in a 'Terrier' yet?

I think it's horses for courses, if you're happy with DC then go for it - and the same if you're happy with DCC...

The £250 was for a PowerCab (£135) plus a later purchase of the additional PowerPro  (£110) and an extra jack-point  (£10) to hook up the second handset at the other side of the layout. The additional £400 covers the accessory decoders for signals and points, for 40+ points you'd spend quite a bit on equivalent DC control stuff.  It wasn't all forked out at once either - the layout was built in sections at a time so I could spread the cost.

I've got two Terriers, both chipped with Lenz silver mini's, which admittedly were more than £20 a punt.

I probably wouldn't have ever converted my old DC layout but when a house move forced a new layout upon me I decided to go DCC and haven't regretted it at all. Maybe I'm better at laying track and so on now but I definitely get better running than I ever did before.

Must admit to a bit of an obsession with prating about with electronics though, spent a summer a few years ago fitting Scalextric cars with working brake lights and flash-able headlights for my nephew (honest) 

[scottmitchell74]

I also think DC -v- DCC may have a little to do (but not always) with what kind of operations you do. I'm a continuous operations guy. I like to get the train rolling and just listen and watch while it makes its paces around the layout, while others like to do switching work and actually "play" more with their layouts. As a continuous operations guy I don't think I need DCC as much to achieve what I want.

[Les1952]

I also think DC -v- DCC may have a little to do (but not always) with what kind of operations you do. I'm a continuous operations guy. I like to get the train rolling and just listen and watch while it makes its paces around the layout, while others like to do switching work and actually "play" more with their layouts. As a continuous operations guy I don't think I need DCC as much to achieve what I want.

With two trains on each road of the fiddle yard on a roundy-roundy with a main line that is pointless at the front, I find it useful to put both locos on the line I'm running into the cab's memory before starting the first one off, then advance the second one as soon as the first is moving- can be done with analogue but far easier to control both locos working DCC. 

All the very best
Les

[ngauger]

Shame!
I can't help but think that the OP's original issues could have been solved easily using a PC and freely available software like Jmri?  I can honestly say that this software works!  I use a an NCE powercab, again, an extremely nicely designed bit of kit, c £120 for the controller + PSU.  I had to buy the USB interface, but it wasn't a hill of beans.
Once installed, each loco is entered into the roster, complete with a photo for easy reference!  It's then simplicity itself to open up a throttle, or throttles for all your loco's, and arrange them on your screen.  For those of you who have an ipad/iphone/ipod you can download the wii throttle app which basically turns your device into a throttle for the control of up to 4 trains.  Once your roster is set up, you'll find it very easy to program the more intricate stuff, as it's all in a graphic interface, not a micro LCD screen!  I do still use my powercab itself of course, but usually assign it to one of my more used loco's, so I can just pick it up even if the PC (Mac actually!) is off/standby.
Wiring for DCC is pretty simple, and I simply can't imagine not being able to run more than one train on each length of track, a no brainer for me.  I actually think it's pretty cool to see the loco lights change from white to red once change of direction, plus they can be dimmed when in the sidings 
I don't know if there is a way to simulate and change train momentum, or braking with DC?
Point motors can also be connected to the track bus if required (tortoise/Cobalt etc), and with an interface like the NCE Switch 8, addresses can be programed in to Jmri for route control, which is bacically a form of semi automation.
As I've said before, what's not to like?

P.S With Wii Throttle, it's really a doddle to allow a 'guest' to control one of your trains (if you could bring yourself to that is!).  All they do, is download the free version to their iphone, open it up, connect to your Wii server (easy peasy as it scans for Wii servers in the vicinity!) Then just enter the loco code and away they go.  I even manage to get my 16 year old daughter to partake, which she loved, highly out of character. 

[PostModN66]

Hi Ngauger,

A really interesting post - thanks! 

I could counter some of your points about limits of DC, but actually, what I think it comes down to is - what's not to like......all that computer/digital malarkey!  I have enough of all that thrust upon me by work and social expectations!

People have talked above about an analogy with photography - I would draw one with electric guitars.  It is possible to get guitar amplifiers that are fully digital with superb recreations of every sound you might want, programmable from your PC via USB or MIDI (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) etc.

What do I use?  A valve amplifier tracing its roots back more than 100 years.  No transistors, let alone ICs or microprocessors.  Heavy, fragile, unreliable, temperamental and even dangerous, highly limited in functionality.  Lovely!

By the way, I am completely happy for others to use DCC and have no intention to persuade them otherwise.  It sounds from your post that you have a lot of fun with DCC, and that is great!

Cheers  Jon 

[CarriageShed]

All of my locos are second-hand, and some are kits, so the thought of chipping them all for DCC puts me off straight away. I'll definitely be building a DC-only layout in the near future.

[martink]

DCC has both pros and cons, largely reflecting the history and evolution of the concept.  It was essentially developed in its current form in conjunction with the traditional big American-style layout, where a driver (sorry, engineer) takes control of a train then drives it right around the layout, shunting as he goes.  It is less effective when you have to keep selecting and de-selecting locos, and even worse if you have to hand them off to the next operator on a signal box to signal box type of layout ("what was that loco number again?" he shouts). 

In the past, the same type of large American layout often used a more complex type of DC controller, where you had additional controls to set up the starting and maximum voltages for a loco before driving the train - effectively giving the DC controller the equivalent of a DCC speed table.  You'd be surprised at how much of a difference this made.  There were even a few digital DC (yes, DC) controllers that actually let you set up speed tables with loco ids/names, then select a loco by name or class before running it.  This type could even give you a calibrated speedometer by reading the back EMF!

Alas, these DC types have all but vanished, and all the commonly available DC controllers are low-end products (in terms of control features - I am not necessarily disparaging their running characteristics).