Port Perran looks a very fine layout. Congratulations. One minor point: the small D22XX diesel shunter is a Class 04; more commonly found on the SR (Exmouth Junction had three in the early 1960s) whilst Class 03s were used on the WR. Two were shedded at St. Blazey in the 1960s.
Apologies - Schoolboy error !! Many Thanks for pointing that out. I shall amend the website.
I do run locos that aren't strictly accurate for my period/area so shall put up with the SR interloper!
It's the pedant in me, I'm afraid. I grew up on the (G)WR and remember the green Class 03s well but the only Class 04 I saw was at Stratford (East London).
I'm planning a layout based on the ex-SR North Cornwall lines after the WR takeover in 1963 (so in in the same time period as you) so that I can run WR steam and diesel locos plus a Bulleid Pacific on the Atlantic Coast Express and some BR Standards. I'm assuming that the total closure of the ex-SR Withered Arm did not happen as suddenly or as completely under a far more enlightened management with local council support. (A scenario like the BR Manager who was sent to close down the Settle & Carlisle line but actually helped to save it.)
Hi Chris and first of all welcome.You obviously have some knowledge of GWR shunters,would you happen to know which shunters operated at Southall in the early sixties?.
Thank you for the welcome, Alan. Alas, in the move from the U.K. over 20 years ago, I had to leave my old model railway and nearly all my books behind. However, thanks to the Internet, a lot of information is now available if you know where to look plus I buy a lot of secondhand books from Amazon UK. To answer your specific question, you could try searching here: http://www.brdatabase.info/classes.php?type=D&subtype=Shunters (http://www.brdatabase.info/classes.php?type=D&subtype=Shunters)
I presume that Southall shunters were sub-shedded from Old Oak Common?
Alas, I cannot be more helpful.
I like the sound of your idea for a Withered Arm layout and look forward to seeing developments.
I have a longer term idea to add an extension to Port Perran which would be a very fictitious link from Newquay to Padstow allowing SR and Standard locos/stock access to Newquay and hence on to Port Perran.
This would, of course, allow me to run some SR/BR locos.
That sounds an excellent idea. My (planned) layout is based on a modified version of Padstow but with some features from Halwill Junction, Bude, and Ilfracombe so all protypical for the area. As I won't be moving for at least 10 years I have plenty of time for planning, learning, and buying stock!
The thought of having to learn all about DCC and wiring is rather daunting!
Although a (G)WR man at heart I've always loved the atmosphere of the ex-LSWR 'Withered Arm' and (G)WR locos like 45XX and 57XX panniers, not to mention the 136X small panniers all ran in the area, together with a nice selection of BR Standards. I think I can stretch beyond Class 22s (which certainly ran) to Warships (which ran to Ilfracombe) and, maybe Hymeks which weren't exactly common in the far South West. (I'm not really interested in SR T9s or Ns, hence choosing 1963-67) I wonder if Westerns had the Route Availability? Plymouth Laira certainly had an allocation. Alas Class 14s (to my knowledge) never ran in the South West. A pity as I still remember cabbing an almost grandnew D9501 after it had already been withdrawn and stored!
To the best of my knowledge, Class 03s were only based at St. Blazey and Class 04s at Exmouth Junction and I don't believe Class 08s ever ran on the 'Withered Arm'? Still, I'm going to have an 03 and maybe a 04 (both SR allocated)!
I also want a green Class 122 railcar (they certainly ran). However, I'm not sure whether the WR used Class 121s on the ex-SR lines? Green two and three-car Class 117s ran and, on specials Class 120s and, much later, even Metro-Cammells. I read that Ilfracombe had 'facilities' for railcars but they were based at Plymouth and Newton Abbot.
Not sure about the 08s.
I thought they did run at least up to Wadebridge at the very end of the Bodmin to Wadebridge line, so they may well have made it to Padstow.
I'll see if I can find any photos. However, I may be wrong !!
My mistake. Yes, of course, the Class 08s ran on the Wenford Bridge line after (I presume) the Class 03s proved unsuitable, to the end. (The Class 03s having replaced the ex-GWR 136X panniers which replaced the Beattie tanks so, So, Class 08s are definitely protypical on china clay hoods, at least.
08s were tried at Wadebridge but couldn't handle the quay. The 03 could handle the quay but wasn't good on the clay. The 08s were used extensively though for the clay traffic and were the largest locomotive permitted on the line to Wenford until its closure. They 03 I believe went away when the quay was lifted.
I don't believe either the Warships or Hymeks had the RA to traverse the North Cornwall. The class 22s were RA4 and were the only 'real' diesel locomotives allowed on several lightly laid routes at the time including both Roskear and the West Crofty - the axle load of small steam locos is generally lower than diesels, so while RA4 for a real diesel loco as extraordinarily low it was only comparable with many smaller steam locos.
W55001, W55014 and W55026 are known to have worked the line, and W55026 is the only class 121 I know of photos of on the route. The AC cars railbus also got to Wadebridge - possibly for servicing ?
Branches did get upgraded though. Hard to imagine the North Cornwall getting the treatment but Wadebridge to Padstow just maybe (to cater for the secret nuclear submarine base.. at least thats why my Wadebridge has bigger locos and nuke flasks :D )
Thank you very much Etched Pixels for that very informative post. Class 03 D2129 was shedded at St. Blazey from October 1961 to March 1965 (when Wadebridge Wharf closed?) and was joined by classmate D2183 in 1962 and, again, in 1964 (when D2129 was receiving mechanical attention?).
I didn't think either the Warships or the Hymeks had a low enough RA. (I'm sure Westerns did not and, probably, couldn't handle the curves?).
I haven't been able to discover the number(s) of the AC Cars railbus used on the shuttle service. Ay information would be greatfully recieved. Also any information about modelling one in 'N'.
Presumably Wadebridge serviced the Class 03s and 08s, (including fuelling them?) so it must have had some kind of diesel service facilities which the railbus could have used. But I've not seen any details let alone photos. Again, any info. would be gratefully received. The DMUs were serviced at, at least, Ilfracombe, but, again, I have no details. Sending diesel stock to Plymouth, Newton Abbot, or St Blazey would have involved a lot of non-revenue earning travel. Exmouth Junction shed had three Class 04s 1n 1961-2 so, presumably, also had diesel servicing facilities?
For my model, I'm assuming that the Wadebridge to Padstow line survived (including passenger services) under a more enlightened management (like the Settle & Carlisle line when it was proposed for closure) supported by local councils with both SR and WR services. Did Warships and Hymeks have the same RA? If so, I will presume that the line was upgraded to cater for them on through trains from the WR and SR beyond. (I like your idea of the secret submarine base justifying the line's survival and upgrading!)
The Ilfracombe line, from the Withered Arm video, had concrete-sleepered track near Ilfracombe (even when the tracks were still double), I presume CWR?
Just out of interest, D2177 (Class 03) was used on the lifting train on the final days at Padstow in March 68. (It was based at Laira).
Thank you, Port Perran, for that info. For my planned model I'm assuming that the North Cornwall lines did not close but survived under a BR - local government partnership.
Etched Pixels, are there any photos of your Wadebridge layout that I could see, please.
Quote from: Chris in Prague on September 12, 2013, 08:07:48 AM
I didn't think either the Warships or the Hymeks had a low enough RA. (I'm sure Westerns did not and, probably, couldn't handle the curves?).
The Warships were RA7 when introduced and really intended to replace the King and Castle class locos on the mainline routes notably Paddington-Birmingham and Paddington-Penzance. The westerns likewise were RA7. The Hymeks were RA6 but rare in the south west.
Quote
I haven't been able to discover the number(s) of the AC Cars railbus used on the shuttle service. Ay information would be greatfully recieved. Also any information about modelling one in 'N'.
I've got a photo of one on the Bodmin runs somewhere and will take a look. It's on my 3D print list but I've not had time to do it yet.
Quote
Presumably Wadebridge serviced the Class 03s and 08s, (including fuelling them?) so it must have had some kind of diesel service facilities which the railbus could have used. But I've not seen any details let alone photos. Again, any info. would be gratefully received. The DMUs were serviced at, at least, Ilfracombe, but, again, I have no details. Sending diesel stock to Plymouth, Newton Abbot, or St Blazey would have involved a lot of non-revenue earning travel. Exmouth Junction shed had three Class 04s 1n 1961-2 so, presumably, also had diesel servicing facilities?
No idea on Exmouth. Wadebridge had quite basic facilities for what it did even in steam days and much of that was quite literally falling down by the mid 1960s. A lot of minor service/repair work just needs an oil can and a big enough spanner though.
Quote
For my model, I'm assuming that the Wadebridge to Padstow line survived (including passenger services) under a more enlightened management (like the Settle & Carlisle line when it was proposed for closure) supported by local councils with both SR and WR services. Did Warships and Hymeks have the same RA? If so, I will presume that the line was upgraded to cater for them on through trains from the WR and SR beyond. (I like your idea of the secret submarine base justifying the line's survival and upgrading!)
Ditto, although my working assumption is that only the Bodmin General-Wadebridge route got improved.
Quote
The Ilfracombe line, from the Withered Arm video, had concrete-sleepered track near Ilfracombe (even when the tracks were still double), I presume CWR?
Don't know. Wadebridge itself didn't get concrete sleepered track even at the end.
Alan
Quote from: Chris in Prague on September 12, 2013, 08:47:51 AM
Etched Pixels, are there any photos of your Wadebridge layout that I could see, please.
It's looking a bit sad - it got very wet the card buildings all died and the platforms shrank. This discussion is however motivating me to finally get off my backside and consider getting on with building some new ones.
What I modelled is based on the final layout but with different sidings kept (so it fits on a 30 cm wide board) - so goods shed (but not the two lines behind it), main platform, island platform, two sidings off island plaform.
I'll take a couple of pictures when I get a bit of time.
Alan
Many thanks, Alan, for such a quick and informative response. I understand that the rebuilt West Countries / Battle of Britain's had a higher RA (being heavier than the unrebuilt examples) so were banned from many lines, e.g. Ilfracombe. So, if I want to run Hymeks, Warships, Castles (on specials) and rebuilt WCs / BBs I will have to assume that the local councils paid for a thorough upgrade of the Bodmin General-Wadebridge route to RA7, so I can use some concrete-sleepered CWR outside the station and have the station area reballasted.
I will have to find a prototype small diesel servicing area for my model based on Padstow but I still want to keep the turntable by the sea as it is such a beautiful location. (As I'm adding a small locoshed based on Bude's (for the limited steam services) I can add a diesel servicing area, too! The goods shed will be based on Wadebridge as all sidings will be on one side of the (modified) station only. (Do you have any scale plans for Wadebridge goods shed? I have a lot of pictures of it but no plans.)
I have added an island platform to my station plan for operational reasons. (I'm assuming the SR added it in the 1930s.)
I do hope that you will be able to refurbish your layout as I'm looking forward to seeing some photos of it as well as of the railbus.
Quote from: Chris in Prague on September 12, 2013, 11:13:19 AM
Many thanks, Alan, for such a quick and informative response. I understand that the rebuilt West Countries / Battle of Britain's had a higher RA (being heavier than the unrebuilt examples) so were banned from many lines
In part because they were too heavy to cross the Meldon viaduct.
Quote
I will have to find a prototype small diesel servicing area for my model based on Padstow but I still want to keep the turntable by the sea as it is such a beautiful location. (As I'm adding a small locoshed based on Bude's (for the limited steam services) I can add a diesel servicing area, too! The goods shed will be based on Wadebridge as all sidings will be on one side of the (modified) station only. (Do you have any scale plans for Wadebridge goods shed? I have a lot of pictures of it but no plans.)
You don't fancy converting the Padstow fish shed into a depot ;)
I do have drawings of Wadebridge goods shed and station but not of the island platform building. They were published in Modellers Backtrack Feb/March 1994 (I think) 1mm/ft of
- station building
- goods shed
- east signal box
- water tank
- hoist
- engine shed
The island platform is tricker as no drawings and few photos cover all of it. There is however an article in the 1980 MRC annual on it and some basic info/arrangement plan.
The shed is also covered in more detail with drawings in An Historical Survey of Southern Sheds
The biggest problem I had with the buildings is the brickwork. There simply isn't any stone paper that is like the pattern found at Wadebridge (and interestingly in parts of Swansea).
Quote
I do hope that you will be able to refurbish your layout as I'm looking forward to seeing some photos of it as well as of the railbus.
The Wadebridge buildings are unusual. The rest of the line follows standard LSWR pattern goods sheds, so you might want to consider an LSWR no.1 or no.2 goods shed if you are trying to keep the style of Padstow.
http://www.northcornwallrailway.co.uk/ (http://www.northcornwallrailway.co.uk/)
has sketches for both types and the North Cornwall Railway book better quality drawings.
Thanks again, Alan. With space at a premium I have had to omit both the quay branch and the (pretty big) fish shed. However, the standard LSWR No. 1 and No. 2 goods sheds are too small and, besides, I really like the look of the Wadebridge goods shed so that's what I'm going to use. The main platform and station buildings will be as accurate as possible models of Padstow including the signal box and signal. However. much else will be changed. (I have presumed that a branch from Wadebridge was built across the river from Padstow to Penmayn (Rock, as it is better known), Britain's St. Tropez! Hence the line's survival along with through trains to Paddington and Waterloo, in the summer, and the continued use of a SR green horsebox on selected trains from London for those ladies who like ride their horses on holiday!)
Alas, that particular Modellers Backtrack is out of print and Google could not find any secondhand copies for sale either. 8-(
Yes, I have been thinking of how I will represent the stonework: probably handscored on card using pencil drawn stone shapes? (Being short-sighted such closeup work is not a problem for me. I have studied the Pendon Museum methods for constructing buildings.) I think Wadebridge goods shed would be a good building to start with, maybe without the concrete sections extension?
Was Meldon Viaduct strengthened for the BR diesels hauling ballast trains from the quarry? After the Class 33s were withdrawn what was there with a low enough RA? (If not, I suppose I could state that, as part of the hypothetical BR - Local Government investment program to save the majority of the Withered Arm, Meldon Viaduct was upgraded too? Or as a diversionary route for when the ex-GWR coastal route was closed by high seas? Warships definitely got to Ilfracombe on through trains from Paddington. So, I can use modeller's licence to say that the surviving lines of the Withered Arm were upgraded to a higher RA. 8-)
I have just read this on SEmG:
"Bulleid diesels being fuelled at Waterloo.
[There was a temporary arrangement in the North Sidings from September 1951 until August 1955. Fuel was pumped from a 4000 gallon tank wagon with portable pumps...lube oil was kept in 45 gallon drums, nearby.]
As well as the Bulleids the other mainline diesels could be serviced eg 10001/2."
So, that could have been what was done at Wadebridge to fuel and service diesels? However, I think I will add some small concrete canopies like Ipswich SP has, today. Hmm, did Exmouth Jn concrete works produce anything similar? 8-)
79977/79978 were the railbusses assigned to run the Bodmin North shuttle.
I like the idea of doing Rock. I did think about 'Splat International Airport' instead of Wadebridge at one point when they were talking about a Cornwall airport but it would have meant being modern image only.
Meldon was not strengthened, but was singled allowing more weight. The quarry trains did not need to cross the bridge (and they still don't - they quarry branch remains). Bridge rules are also frequently more complicated - its often 'these locomotives except by authority of' or 'may pass on authority if fuel tank no more than half full' or 'at 15mph or lower' or nowdays things like 'no more than ten trips a year'.
For lightly loaded routes Laira had a small number of class 25s in later days which were RA5 or RA4 without steam heating boilers if I remember rightly. They worked things like the daily Wadebridge van train. In turn these were substituted for class 37s.
These days Network Rail seem to be using pairs of class 73s on the low RA southern routes along with some 37s. The 37s in mainline use probably don't have long left though - the engines on most of them are now beyond their rated hours.
No idea on the fuelling arrangements - but you can fuel and oil shunters with a jerrycan and an oilcan.
Alan
I very much like your idea of a line to Rock. I like fictional representations of "what might have been" and I do like that North Cornwall area. It is interesting to have a look and see what still remains of the railway up there.
Keep us informed of progress.
Incidentally, I have a photo (in Images of Cornish Railways - Maurice Dart) of the weedkilling train (of all things) visiting Bodmin General in May '71 (with a class 22)
Incidentally, on this topic, I'll be at the the Wadebridge model rail show on 6/7 October with Port Perran . There will be several other Cornish layouts there (not all N though I'm afraid) that might give some inspiration.
Just as an afterthought re Hymeks.
According to the Bradford-Barton volume Bodmin & Wadebridge(1834-1978), a single Hymek (D7032) visited Wadebridge on a North Cornwall line trial in Jan '65 (somewhat unsuccessfully I guess) so you could include one on your railway quite justifiably.
Dear all,
It was, rightly, pointed out to me that I should have started a new thread on this fascinating subject. Briefly, this is a discussion as to what BR diesels (shunters, loco's, and railcars and units) did run on the ex-LSWR and WR lines in North Cornwall around 1960-1969 (and to a lesser degree, Cornwall) that made up the ex-LSWR Withered Arm network. Also, what could have run if circumstances were different, e.g. most of the network had not abruptly been closed following the WR takeover in January 1963 of all ex-SR lines west of Exeter and, instead, investment had been made to upgrade the Route Availability (RA) of at least some lines. (The scenario I'm planning for my N Gauge layout based on Padstow but moved across the river to what, today, is known as Rock.)
With my 'academic hat' on, from now on, I will cite sources for all the information and politely ask others to do the same so that we can build up a really useful resource for others modelling this period and area.
(As an aside, I'm also interested in the steam locos which ran on the lines in this period, too, but had better leave THAT for another thread! 8-)
Thank you, Port Perran. I will respond fuller, later. Alas, it's a long way from Prague to Wadebridge, otherwise I'd be delighted to meet you and watch your excellent model of Port Perran in action. (I hope someone makes and posts a video.)
The info. about the Hymek D7032 is very useful as it does prove that there is a prototype for (almost) everything if you look hard enough! So, my future Hymek will be D7032! I guess in green with small yellow warning panel (SWP) in 1965?
The photo (in Images of Cornish Railways - Maurice Dart) of the weedkilling train (of all things) visiting Bodmin General in May '71 (with a class 22) sounds very interesting. Whilst I know scanned images of copyrighted pictures cannot be posted here, one sent by private message would be gratefully accepted! (And I could do the same from my limited library.) Does the book tell you which Class 22 it was, must have been very shortly before the last ones were withdrawn? A model of a weedkilling train would make a nice addition of my planned model which assumes that most of the Withered Arm was NOT abruptly closed down but was given limited investment to keep it open with local government support.
Best wishes,
Chris
So, Port Perran, I could also add Class 03 D2177 to my planned roster; however, 1968 is a bit late. 8-) (D2177 (Class 03) was used on the lifting train on the final days at Padstow in March 68. (It was based at Laira).)
Currently, my plan is to buy a model of D2388 in late BR green livery and renumber it as D2398 as that was, at least, an SR (Weymouth) allocated loco. in my target time period. (As 03 398 it was 'mysteriously' -- I believe after an accident, withdrawn quite early despite having been overhauled, repainted in BR blue and dual-braked, so it has always interested me as the 'one that got away'!)
Many thanks Alan, for researching that 79977/79978 were the railbusses assigned to run the Bodmin North shuttle, and the further info. about RA and Meldon Viaduct. I got confused as I believe that the viaduct was used as a headshunt for the quarry so thought ballast trains still traversed it.
Re: fuel arrangements, I've reposted a post about how the Bulleid diesels were refuelled in the 1950s which proves your point! 8-)
Alan and Port Perran, I'm delighted you like my idea of basing my planned station on Rock (in Cornish, Pennmeyn, I believe, but I'm guessing the LSWR would have called it Panmayn). I apologise for this digression from the topic of BR Diesels in North Cornwall but I promise that it WILL be relevant! (To at least my planned layout.) From reading "A Regional History of the Railways of Great Britain: The West Country v. 1" (Regional railway history series) by David St.John Thomas (26 Feb 1988), "It was not from want of scheming that the steam age invaded the area [North Devon and North Cornwall] late." I believe, back in the 1860s, the Launceston, Bodmin & Wadebridge Junction railway, incorporated in 1864, which became the Cornwall Central and extended its powers to include a line to Truro, proposed (I believe, I need to find the source) a line to Rock.
"The Launceston, Bodmin & Wadebridge Junction Railway Act of 1864 authorized a 21-mile 4' 8½" gauge line from Launceston to a junction with the Bodmin & Wadebridge Railway's line at Wenford Bridge. The proposed line went westward and then from near Otterham turned south toward Bodmin, skirting Bodmin Moor. As part of the scheme the South Devon Railway would have been forced to lay down mixed gauge between Lydford and Launceston.The Central Cornwall Railway Act of 1867 added a second line from a junction with the Bodmin & Wadebridge Railway's Ruthern Bridge branch to a junction with the West Cornwall Railway at Truro. This would also have included an interchange with the broad gauge Newquay and Cornwall Junction Railway somewhere around Bugle. The Central Cornwall scheme would have given the London & South Western Railway a 4' 8½" connection from Waterloo, all the way to Bodmin and Truro and thence over the existing mixed gauge to Penzance. Such a line would probably have proved more profitable than the L&SWR line that was eventually built, and would certainly have been a lot cheaper. It might even have helped the long-term viability of the broad gauge Great Western main line by getting rid of a lot of the transshipment problems. Alas, the scheme was not to be — there was simply not enough money around in the late 1860s to bring it to fruition. Under the Abandonment of Railways Act of 1850, a Warrant of the Board of Trade authorized the abandonment of the Central Cornwall Railway on 16 March 1870."
SOURCE: http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/LSWR/CentCorn.html (http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/LSWR/CentCorn.html)
In any case, I am proposing that, in the 1860s, a standard gauge line was built by the Central Cornwall Railway from Wadebridge to Rock.
Regarding the Exeter - Barnstaple line, Thomas states that "Nor did the single track merely slow the journey: trains remained infrequent and because of the expense of staffing the signal boxes at all the crossing stations, the service stopped early in the evening." (pp104-105)
The "Southern Region did promise to lengthen loops and introduce centralized traffic control [as was begun on the Central Wales Line but never finished]. But that had not happened before the Western Region took over in 1963, and thereafter the question was not what development would be undertaken but how much of the withered arm would be spared the axe." (p105).
"Bad rail services meant that in the 1950s and 1960s Ilfracombe received far more passengers by motor coach than did other resorts of similar size . . . Even so, it was often block-to-block working with double-headed and banked trains over the gradients between Barnstaple and Ilfracombe, until the route was first singled in December 1967 [despite concrete sleepered track being laid near Ilfracombe -- "Withered Arm" video] and then closed, from 5 October 1970. though rail traffic had been dwindling -- nayt positively discouraged -- the final withdrawal hurt many hotels and boarding houses and led to unsuccessful attempts to get the line reopened on a private basis. Goods traffic . . . ceased from 7 September 1964 . . . " (pp109-110)
" . . . the withdrawal of an area manager and the decision by the local council not after all to proceed with a scheme to finance reopening to Bideford (an active group chartered regular trains to that town in 1980) were disappointments, the lack of local senior management perhaps especially hurting freight and excursion prospects.) (p110)
"Bude is isolated, but would surely be twice its present size had the railway arrived earlier and given a better -- particularly a quicker -- service. . . . Apart from the slow gradient climbing, long delays occurred at Exeter, Okehampton and Halwill while the various sections of trains such as the Atlantic Coast Express were divided . . ." (p118)
"The 1864 powers for the Launceston, Bodmin & Wadebridge Junction had lapsed many years before the LSWR at last felt ready to bridge the gap between its main system and the Bodmin & Wadebridge. [Wadebridge not, finally, being reached until 1st June 1895.] (p119)
So, we have the scenario for a line which COULD have been built in the 1860s which generated more traffic and led to an increase in the size of the towns it served much greater than actually happened because it happened 30 years earlier. We have a Southern Region that COULD have introduced centralized traffic control and a WR which COULD have organised promoted a much better service (after it took over in 1963) than it did and local councils that COULD have subsidised local rail passenger services . . .
But to return to the subject of BR Diesels in North Cornwall and what did run and, under the above scenario, COULD have run, in North Cornwall in BR days. 8-)
Back to Thomas: "The rundown was swift. Nine or ten coach trains survived on summer Saturdays until 5 September 1964, , after which all through carriages from Waterloo were withdrawn and Bude and Okehampton - Wadebridge lost freight times (though for a time Launceston was served via Lydford). Both the Bude and Wadebridge lines were dieselised from 3 January 1965, marking the end of regular steam passenger workings in Devon and Cornwall. This left only occasional diesel multiple-units, often a single car, and for the summer of 1965 a Paddington-Bude and reverse on summer Saturdays." (p120) [I wonder what loco. hauled those trains?]
"The two lines were totally closed from 3 October 1966, wiping a large slice of the est Country off the railway map. Because the railway had always been the best local employer, pride in the job remained high with remarkably good track maintenance based on Halwill Junction until the end." (p120)
So, which diesels did run protypically on the Withered Arm (ex-LSWR lines in North Cornwall and North Devon)?
We have recorded: Class 22s (including D6311, D6342, D6348), AC Cars railbuses (W79977/79978 assigned to run the Bodmin North shuttle), single unit (Class 122 "Bubble Car"W55001, W55014; Class 121 "Bubble Car" W55026), twin unit and triple unit (Class 117, I believe) DMUs. Anything heavier than a Class 22 was banned. (Although as noted, Class 35 Hymek, D7032 DID visit Wadebridge on a North Cornwall line trial in Jan '65.) [Class 22, 121, and 122 numbers from: http://www.trenoweth.co.uk/NCR/rollstock.html (http://www.trenoweth.co.uk/NCR/rollstock.html)]
Additionally, Class 03 D2177 (of Laira) as noted, was used on lifting train at Padstow, March 1968.
Further south, we have up to 2 Class 03s (1961-1965) and various 08s, based at St. Blazey working the Bodmin-Wadebridge line; the Class 08s up to closure.
Finally, at the SR's Exmouth Junction (Exeter) shed I don't have any record of any diesels being allocated (but may have missed some diesel shunters?). However, at the SR's Plymouth Friary, we have three Class 04s allocated in 1961-62 only.
On enthusiast specials, I have seen pictures of Swindon Class 120 3-car Cross-Country sets and Metro-Cammell Class 101 3-car sets.
Further numbers have been given above.
Any additions, corrections gratefully received.
The photos I have access to show the following non steam locos :
16/5/71 D6326 at Bodmin Gen on weedkilling train
01/3/68 D2177 near Padstow with a track clearance train.
17/8/76 08576 at Wenford Dries
18/8/66 79977 at Bdmin North and again at Boscarne Jct
01/10/66 W55000 at Wadebridge (with the penultimate working to Halwill)
09/8/61 D6315 at Wadebridge
Sep 65 D2127 at Dunmere
I may have some other photos but none immediately come to mind I'm afraid.
Plenty of steam ones though !!
Hope this helps.
Many thanks, Port Ferran. Class 03 D2127 is a new one. It was transferred to 83D Laira 30/01/1960, then was one of only three (I believe) Class 03s to be allocated 84B St Blazey 24/08/1964, before returning to 84A Laira 14/05/1967, where it was WITHDRAWN 11/05/1968. (D2129 and D2183 being the others.)
I've never seen a picture of Wadebridge Wharf let alone a Class 03 there; that could be a nice moelling subject? (Especially as, until we move to a larger place, the domestic authorities have agreed to a small N layout that can be retrieved from under the double bed. (I'm thinking of an IKEA zipsided dustproof storage unit for the baseboard.)
North Cornwall Railways (http://www.northcornwallrailway.co.uk/ (http://www.northcornwallrailway.co.uk/)) lists as known to have worked on the North Cornwall Line:
Type: Nº: Place: Date noted: Reference:
North British Type 2 D6311 Wadebridge 31 Jan 1961 Photo sold on eBay
D6342 Halwill 21 Aug 1965 IHNCR p120
D6348 Wadebridge 14 Jul1964 IHNCR p142
DMU:
Type: Nº: Place: Date noted: Reference:
Class 122 "Bubble Car" W55001 Wadebridge N/A BLAB plate 21
W55014 Padstow 28 Jan 1967 NCR
Class 121 "Bubble Car" W55026 Port Isaac Road 5 May 1966 IHNCR p27
Railcar:
Type: Nº: Place: Date noted: Reference:
AC Cars ? Wadebridge Undated BLAB pl21 [Reported above as being: W79977/78]
So, "The Class 22s were RA4 and were the only 'real' diesel locomotives allowed on several lightly laid routes at the time including both Roskear and the West Crofty - the axle load of small steam locos is generally lower than diesels, so while RA4 for a real diesel loco as extraordinarily low it was only comparable with many smaller steam locos." Class 22s would be ideal motive power, post-steam, for local passenger and freight services. (Withdrawals of class members, which had commenced in 1967, finished with the withdrawal of 6333, 6336, 6338 and 6339 in December 1971, so most which were West Country-based could be used within my 1969 'cut-off' date.) However, the Hymek Class 35s were RA6. But, as noted above, Class 35 D7032 DID visit Wadebridge on a North Cornwall line trial in Jan '65, and the lines enjoyed "remarkably good track maintenance based on Halwill Junction until the end".
Now, I'm no track engineer but, as I understand it, RA concerns the weight of the axle load so, to increase the Route Availability, more than reballasting and ensuring the rails were up to carrying the increased weight would be required, namely, all bridges carrying the railway track(s) would have to be inspected and strengthened or, maybe, speed limits imposed? However, to improve the passenger services, average speeds would need to be increased rather than decreased! So, I'm assuming local government funded investment would take care of strengthening bridges as required whilst track replacement (I'm assuming concrete-sleepered CWR reused from WR high-speed lines) and reballasting (where required) courtesy of the PWM dept. at Halwill Jn. would take care of the rest. Hmm, what colour would the new ballast (from Meldon Quarry) be compared to the old?
In passing, does anyone make a model of the distinctive track-built bufferstops used at Padstow? On the subject of Padstow station, would station layouts be rationalised as part of the 1960s upgrading? Almost certainly, yes; so my model will be set before that was done but after the other tracks and structures had been upgraded to, at least, RA6, so Class 35 Hymeks could be used on through trains from Paddington. 8-)
But, I also want to run Class 42 Warships, but their Route Availability was 7. However, it was reduced to RA 6 from 1969, which, fortunately, is just within my period and, with suitable dispensation (in view of the excellent work of the PWM dept. and civil engineers) before 1969, I'm assuming they could also run where the train was judged to be too heavy for a Hymek. HOWEVER, as with the Westerns (see below), their minimum curve negotiable is: 4.5 chains (91 m). So, would it be reasonable to state that Warships would be allowed, after 'my' route upgrading and Westerns not?
So with a new RA of 6, what else could be run? Class 52 Westerns had a RA7 and, I feel, except in very special circumstances (I think the track would still be too curved for them with their minimum curve negotiable being: 4.5 chains (91 m)) should be ruled out. A pity.
Class 47s have a RA of 6, so I could run a green 'namer' on specials. (Minimum curve negotiable: 4 chains (80.46cm).
Class 33s which, during my period, were far to the east, have a RA of 6, also. (Minimum curve negotiable: 4 chains (80.46cm), also.
Class 37s which, during my period, were, largely confined to South Wales, have a RA of 5, so would be no problem. (Minimum curve negotiable: 4 chains (80.46cm) again.
Class 03s and 08s, of course, would not be a problem with RA of 1 (03) and 5 (08).
Diesel railbuses and multiple units would also be fine.
It's good to be realistic with what ran (or what you can realistically run) but remember that it's your railway. As is often pointed out on this forum - Rule One applies - you can run what you like.
For instance, I've got a Class 14 and I don't think (unless someone can correct me) that they ever ventured over the Tamar.
The ballast from Meldon Quarry was, I believe quite light in colour but I'm not absolutely sure.
Thanks for your comment. Port Perran, I'm certainly not about to tell someone what they can or cannot run on their layout. With a RA of 4, Class 14s, interestingly, would be suitable for the unmodernised North Cornwall lines whilst, with a RA of 5, Class 08s would not. With a surplus of Class 14s by 1966, I'm sure WR management would have been happy to hear of any revenue-earning use to which they could be put. Having cabbed an immaculate condition D9501 (whilst in store at Worcester, in 1967), if I ever buy one for Penmayn, that will be the number which it will carry. With a lower RA than a Class 08 and being more economical (reliable?) than a Class 22, I'm sure that the local management of Port Perran must be very happy with their 'import' from across the Tamar. 8-) As far as possible, I prefer to be realistic in my choice of models for my chosen time period (c. 1963-1969) but, as long as I can find a precedent in real life, am also flexible. (I remember when it was rumoured that surplus Class 17s would be used for the Great Northern suburban electrification so, maybe, the Plymouth Area Management will ask for D9501, ex-store, (ideal for PWM work) to assist with the upgrading of Bodmin - Wadebridge - Penmayn, following the success of the Class 14 at Port Perran!
Thanks for the Meldon Quarry ballast colour info., that's what I had hoped would be the case, Port Perran. Now to work out where extra ballast would be need on an upgraded line? (Living in the Czech Republic, as mainlines get upgraded for higher speeds the main difference afterwards is a much greater depth of ballast.) On curves? As Penmayn, (like Padstow) will be a terminus, I think new ballast with secondhand wooden sleepered track would suffice (ditto sidings) with concrete-sleepered CWR beyond the terminus and new, light-coloured Meldon ballast. To save money (the local council is paying!) all signage will remain in SR green.
Re: Class 14s: "In December 1967 withdrawals from BR books started with D9531 and in April of the following year the class began to succumb in earnest. In 1969, five machines at Landore, South Wales, although earmarked to be sold, were run periodically on local freights to keep them servicable. In November of the same year nine machines remained in South Wales, 9509/19/21/6/55 at Cardiff Canton, and 9524/30/6/8 at Landore, Swansea. On paper, in April 1969, BR were finally devoid of their 'white elephants'."
SOURCE: http://www.railblue.com/pages/In%20Depth/Class%2014's.htm (http://www.railblue.com/pages/In%20Depth/Class%2014's.htm)
Re: Good old Dartmoor granite from Meldon Quarry ballast: "very light grey to start with but it weathers down quickly to light brown, going even darker over time. Always refer to photos".
SOURCE: www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/41502-choice-of-ballast-for-hampshire-lines/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/41502-choice-of-ballast-for-hampshire-lines/)
It is, technically, "sold as hornfels, a rock name applied to all rocks baked hard by heat of a nearby igneous intrusion. Historically, the product has been valued for its strength properties for use as rail ballast".
SOURCE: http://www.devon.gov.uk/overview_report_2_5.pdf (http://www.devon.gov.uk/overview_report_2_5.pdf)
Im posting this review of a book on the Bodmin - Wadebridge line here because it gives details of "locomotives that worked on the line": http://grogleyjunction.blogspot.cz/2013/03/new-book-bodmin-wadebridge-railway-1.html (http://grogleyjunction.blogspot.cz/2013/03/new-book-bodmin-wadebridge-railway-1.html) . Looks well worth buying!
Whilst I can find which Class 08s were allocated to St. Blazey I'm interested in finding out which ones worked the Bodmin - Wadebridge / Wenford Bridge line and which ones were in BR Blue livery but still with D series numbers in the period up to and including 1969, please.
I've checked my books and can't add any other diesels other than the ones I've already listed I'm afraid.
Many thanks for your quick reply. I have won 2 BR Blue Class 08s on eBay for good prices but want to renumber them to fit within my limit of 1969 and wanted to know which D numbers would be suitable for St. Blazey allocated examples that could have worked the Bodmin - Wadebridge line. (The scenario is that they would go from Wadebridge, via, Bodmin, to the diesel light maintenance dept at Penmayne, instead of down to St. Blaze,y for refuelling and minor servicing.)
All I have found on the Internet is a photo of BR Blue, D4161, at Bodmin Road (now 'Bodmin Parkway'), allegedly in summer 1971, but it was only allocated to St. Blazey from 1972 - 1974.
:hellosign:
I'm doing a fictitious North Cornwall Branch,called Morwena,My Dad was stationed at Morwenstow between 1943-1944,with the American Army,he was in the Royal Artillary AA command,testing mobile radar.
( Morwena was a Cornish Saint )
I used modellers licence,Southern Loco's Adams 0395,Q1,M7,Western 14XX and Pannier Tank + class 14 Teddy Bear,and some how a class 24.
The Southern used some 24's before getting the 33's,some how this one has drifted from the South Eastern Division.
Mike :Class37:
If I remember correctly, the Class 24s were loaned from the LMR and coupled between the Class 33 and its train to provide steam heating as the SR did not have enough ETH carriages to begin with. I think the Class 24s did venture out solo, too, but only in the SE of England, and mainly on local passenger trains until there were enough DEMUs. (I no longer have all my 1960s "Trains Illustrated"s but remember re-reading them in the 1980s.
However, following Port Perran's recommendation, the local management at Penmayne have 'wangled' a Class 14, D9501, for PWM trains whilst the line is being upgraded under the new WR management, so, I guess, a Class 24 could be borrowed for evaluation, too, at Morwena?
Do remember that Rule 1 applies. I think "artistic license" is fine. The Class 14 and 24 sound fine to me.
Perhaps draw the line at a Deltic though !!
Yes, a Deltic is DEFINITELY out! Interestingly, in "The District Controller's View: No. 14 North Devon (bought out of interest as No. 16 North Cornwall is my reference), on p. 23 in the Locomotive Restrictions: North Devon, every diesel class then in existence, including D9000s (!) are listed. (They were banned from everywhere except Yeoford - Barnstaple and Barnstaple - Torrington but could not run through Torrington station!) What became Class 42, Class 08, and Class 33 had the widest availability. Class 35 and 37 were more restricted. as were Class 03 and 52. Class 24 could only run Yeoford - Barnstaple.
Quote from: Chris in Prague on September 11, 2013, 09:41:13 PM
That sounds an excellent idea. My (planned) layout is based on a modified version of Padstow but with some features from Halwill Junction, Bude, and Ilfracombe so all protypical for the area. As I won't be moving for at least 10 years I have plenty of time for planning, learning, and buying stock!
The thought of having to learn all about DCC and wiring is rather daunting!
Although a (G)WR man at heart I've always loved the atmosphere of the ex-LSWR 'Withered Arm' and (G)WR locos like 45XX and 57XX panniers, not to mention the 136X small panniers all ran in the area, together with a nice selection of BR Standards. I think I can stretch beyond Class 22s (which certainly ran) to Warships (which ran to Ilfracombe) and, maybe Hymeks which weren't exactly common in the far South West. (I'm not really interested in SR T9s or Ns, hence choosing 1963-67) I wonder if Westerns had the Route Availability? Plymouth Laira certainly had an allocation. Alas Class 14s (to my knowledge) never ran in the South West. A pity as I still remember cabbing an almost grandnew D9501 after it had already been withdrawn and stored!
To the best of my knowledge, Class 03s were only based at St. Blazey and Class 04s at Exmouth Junction and I don't believe Class 08s ever ran on the 'Withered Arm'? Still, I'm going to have an 03 and maybe a 04 (both SR allocated)!
I also want a green Class 122 railcar (they certainly ran). However, I'm not sure whether the WR used Class 121s on the ex-SR lines? Green two and three-car Class 117s ran and, on specials Class 120s and, much later, even Metro-Cammells. I read that Ilfracombe had 'facilities' for railcars but they were based at Plymouth and Newton Abbot.
Hi Chris, I'm glad the Warship got to Prague safely. I never knew until your post that there were 2 car class 117's 3 of them I believe according to Wikipedia. I run class 108's (in my eyes class 117's) on my layout mostly two car but I have two three car units - I like to think of my layout as a late 50's to mid 60's era GWR country setup and have 6 class 121's and one class 122 a lot for a small 7' end to end layout.
About the class 117 - would you happen to know if I am tight in believing that there was no corridor connection between carriages on these units?
Thanks. One (green) Warship is here, 2 Maroon ones are still in England. One is being renamed, renumbered, and lightly weathered. The second maroon Warship will also be lightly weathered but I've not decided yet ob changing its identity.
The Class 117's were power twins needed to keep to the demanding schedules, I read, on the North Cornwall lines. (I thought it was because there were not enough passengers to need 3 cars). I think they were normal sets with the centre car removed by Laira. I'm pretty sure none were built as 2 cars. (Wikipedia is NOT the most reliable of sources -- as I warn my students!) There were, again, I'm fairly certain, no gangways between the cars until much later when all the suburban units were so retrofitted. I have old green Graham Farrish Class 101s (which have W series numbers) in 2-car, 3-car, and a single trailer configurations. All will I plan, bar one 3-car set for enthusiast specials from Birmingham, have Class 117 bodies fitted (kits are available and I want to have ago, starting with a 56XXX trailer car). I only have one single unit BR railcar but also have on order one GWR railcar in GWR livery as a preserved example for Summer weekend specials! I want to have one Class 121 and one Class 122 railcar but, at £100 plus for one, one is all I have so far. All my DMUs, except the GWR railcar, are in BR Green with small warning panels.
Quote from: 1018509 on November 04, 2013, 09:57:40 PM
About the class 117 - would you happen to know if I am tight in believing that there was no corridor connection between carriages on these units?
Quite a few DMUs started that way and then acquired corridor connections over time (for things like 'paytrain' operation) and also because a large supply of old style gangways was available of stuff being scrapped.
Alan
Quote from: 1018509 on November 04, 2013, 09:57:40 PM
I run class 108's (in my eyes class 117's) on my layout mostly
Nice to know I'm not the only one doing that!
I didn't know the stuff about the gangway connection between cars.
I see a lot of Green Class 108s run on layouts in the absence of models of something more appropriate. However, there are kits available for more types but, I'm told, not for a novice like me. However, I will work my way up to trying one, starting with a few SR box and parcel van kits before trying a 56XXX series trailer for the single unit diesel railcars. Then I plan to move on to a power twin and, finally, a three-car unit.
I'm hoping to get an ex-GWR diesel railcar in BR Green, as some used to be shedded at Worcester, although I'm not old enough to have seen them my father did. And I will invoke Rule 1 for running it at Penmayne and Cant Cove, as they never ran in Cornwall to the best of my knowledge. However, I have an elaborate 'back story' to explain how devolved local management is able to do such things! (It involves the real life prototype of Lady Penelope of "Thunderbirds" fame, exclusive parties in an exclusive Chelsea town house and the chairmen of the BRB and Western and Southern Regions!)
So are you going to have a pink limousine driven by Parker on your layout ?
Meldon Viaduct was repaired in the early 1960's which allowed the rebuilt light pacifics to work to Plymouth. I have photo evidence of D815 at Oakhampton working the Plymouth - Brighton train on the 1/1/65, the last day of steam.
After dieselisation Loco hauled through trains seemed to only work to Bude. All local services were DMU operated whilst 63's and 7000's worked the hauled passenger trains. Freight train loads were usually capable of being worked by 63's, although I thoiught shunters wroked the Wenford branch, unless this was in the 1970's when the 63's had departed to another life.
The 2 or 3 car DMU's were usually class 118 (BRcW) or class 120 (Swindon cc). When the class 117 (Pressed Steel) were built most went to the London Division and the 3 2 car units were strengthed with a class 118 trailer. This left 3 2 car 118's allocated to Laira.
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on November 05, 2013, 04:42:04 PM
Meldon Viaduct was repaired in the early 1960's which allowed the Rebuilt Light Pacifics to work to Plymouth. [That I knew about; I understand that there are two bridges side-by-side and it wa sthe newer that was upgraded.] I have photo evidence of D815 at Oakhampton working the Plymouth - Brighton train on the 1/1/65, the last day of steam. [T.W.E. Roche in "The Withered Arm" (1967) writes about a 'Pilgrimage to Launceston' in August, 1966. At Tavistock North, he sees a 3-car d.m.u. with about 15 passengers and a Class 22 D6313 with a Toad Brake van working across to the ex-GWR route on a demolition train. He also describes the Brighton-Plymouth hauled by a maroon Class 42, D821, which he mistakenly calls "Dreadnaught". One of my 2 Maroon Warships will be D821. Later, in the evening, he sees a 2-car DMU then a 3 coach stopper with D832 "Monarch" at its head. Then at Tower Hill he sees single unit, W55017, into which he gets joining 4 other passengers. At Launceston, he sees the 3-car DMU arrive from Wadebridge to which W55017 attaches on the front. About 6 passengers joined. He gets out at Tower Hill with another passenger.
He then writes about the last days of the 10.12 ex-Brighton to Plymouth. On Friday 3rd March 1967 he rides on the very last train from Plymouth to Exeter via Tavistock. From 6th March the Brighton terminates at Exeter, and the "Withered Arm" would be served by DMUs - a prelude to the complete closure of the Okehampton - Bere Alston section later that year. D830 "Majestic" in new (Chromatic) blue livery hauls the Brighton, piloted by D817 "Foxhound" from Salisbury to Yeovil Jn. They pass USA tank DS234 at Meldon Quarry. Meldon Quarry to Bere Alston closed to all traffic from 6th May 1968. If "Foxhound" was in maroon that will be the identity for my 2nd maroon "Warship".]
After dieselisation Loco hauled through trains seemed to only work to Bude. All local services were DMU operated whilst 63's and 7000's worked the hauled passenger trains. Freight train loads were usually capable of being worked by 63's, although I thought shunters worked the Wenford branch, unless this was in the 1970's when the 63's had departed to another life. [For the summer of 1965 only, a through train to / from Paddington operated to Bude on Saturdays via Yeovil Pen Mill. At least one Class 35 "Hymek" worked to Bude on test, presumably in connection with the Paddington trains.]
The 2 or 3 car DMU's were usually class 118 (BRCW) or class 120 (Swindon Cross Country). When the class 117 (Pressed Steel) were built most went to the London Division and the 3 2-car units were strengthened with a class 118 trailer. This left 3 2 car 118's allocated to Laira. [Thanks for this new info. about the DMUs. I got my Class 117s confused with Class 118s and had never read about any 2-car units being built. I know Swindon Class 120s and Metro-Cammell Class 101s worked enthusiast specials. I think Gloucester R.C.&W. Co Class 119 Cross-Country units also worked the Ilfracombe line. I have seen no photos of Class 120s running on normal service trains on the "Withered Arm". So, I need to build Class 118s (2 and 3 car versions) and a 120. It would be nice to have the carriage numbers for the 3 2-car 118's allocated to Laira.]
Dodger
Yes, the Wenford Bridge branch was worked by Class 08s after the WR 16XXs (which replaced the Beattie Well Tanks for a short time) but Class 03s worked Wenford Quay I've been told. St. Blazey definitely had an allocation of one or two Class 03s over the years for the branch.
Which was the first BR Blue Class 08 to work to Wadebridge would be good to know, too!
Unfortunately I seem to have mislaid most of my records, but from an old abc it would appear that 2 of them may have been 51305/51320 and 51310/51325. I'm not sure if Laira kept the formations permanent ot not. The third may have been 51309/51324.
I new more about the London Division as I did my apprenticeship at Reading.
Dodger
Many thanks, Dodger. That's good enough for me as I'm only planning to make one 2-car set; now I've a choice of two definite sets to choose from.
I'm just hoping that someone will find a picture of a BR Blue 08 allocated to St. Blazey with a D series number now. 8-)
Hi
Just Managed to pick up on E Bay a Green Class 101 DMU,Right colour wrong unit probably for my new North Cornwell Branch,then so is my on trials class 24,I know Southern Region had them on loan,before their 33 came along.
So far I think I have only 1 Southern Loco that would be right for North Cornwall that is the M7, not sure about my other 2 a Q1 and the other a Adams 0395, the one I have was allocated to Feltham,a bit of a long way from Cornwall.
I would really love to get one of the new N class 2-6-0's but I don't think it will fit my head shunt,the Q1 just fits.
Mike :NGaugersRule: O.K.
The Ns were THE classic North Cornwall steam loco. working just about every type of train so I've ordered one although they are not among my favourites. Really, I should have more than one but I prefer Bulleid Pacifics and WR steam and diesel locos!
Port Perran, re: Lady Penelope, I have considered scratchbuilding a N Gauge pink Rolls Royce but would have to buy a toy model and work out the measurements in N. Also because of the shape and the large area of glass it would be a nightmare to construct! For now, she's represented as a young woman in helmet and headscarf riding one of the new (1960s) trendy Vespa scooters!
Shouldn't Parka be driving ( the spelling is deliberate :D)
Very good, NewportNobby. 8-)
Very good Newport Nobby (very witty).
As for the Ns, I like them and one would look just right on any North Cornwall or Devon layout.
I'd certainly be thinking of one when I build my fictional extension from Port Perran to the Padstow area .
Probably also need Standard Tanks and ex LM 41XXX tanks. Plus an M7 and an O2 or a Terrier. The list is endless !
Oh....and an ex GWR Mogul or two.
I know it's a cliche, but I have several N Gauge Metropolitan Police callboxes and what's the only reason one would be seen in 1960s North Cornwall? Dr. Who, of course!
So......as Dr Who can go back in time, does that give you scope to run locos and stock from any era ?
Looking forward to hearing that you've got some Edwardian trains running !
Quote from: port perran on November 06, 2013, 09:09:43 PM
As for the Ns, I like them and one would look just right on any North Cornwall or Devon layout.
I'd certainly be thinking of one when I build my fictional extension from Port Perran to the Padstow area .
Probably also need Standard Tanks and ex LM 41XXX tanks. Plus an M7 and an O2 or a Terrier. The list is endless !
Oh....and an ex GWR Mogul or two.
Definitely agree about the Ns, I've got one on order for Penmayne which is ex-LSWR under WR post-1963 but with limited SR steam still running until 1967 -- special dispensation to encourage tourism. WR steam finishes in 1962. Hence I'm modelling 1962-1967 with an option to 1969 so that I can run some BR Blue stock (but far fewer trains by then.)
I've a lot (too many) of Standard 4MT tanks so may transfer one to Port Perran if you're interested. I have one Standard 2MT and may buy another. I also got one Ivatt 41XXX tank but they're still going for around £90 on eBay! M7s are, I think, available for more reasonable prices. However, they had already been replaced by Ivatts in my period. Ditto O2s, even earlier. Terriers never got that far Southwest. GWR Moguls were seen in Devon and on the ex-GWR lines but you'd have to build a kit. At least you have a Manor. I'm still trying to buy one to join my Castle. Halls are easier to get. I would really like a Grange as they were designed for the hilly routes in Cornwall but that would have to be a kit, again.
If you extend to the Padstow area I'll have a word with Penmayne's management about through running as Penmayne's just across the Camel from Padstow and you can get there via Wadebridge.
There was a serious proposal to build a line from Padstow to Newquay (the SR still ran a bus service instead.) So, I guess Port Perran is a branch off the Padstow - Newquay line, then?
All the best,
Chris
I think the good Doctor will be too busy to bring over some Edwardian LSWR stock! 8-) What were those sea monsters called? As I'm having a mermaid hidden on the seaward facing side of the rock which divides Penmayne Harbour from Porthilly Cove maybe I can add a sea monster? 8-) I can convert a couple of N Gauge people into the Doctor and 2 companions!
Yes......in my mind Port Perran is situated twixt what is Hayle and Perranporth. My proposed extension will be to a small harbourside location between (roughly) Perranporth & Newquay.
I plan to imagine that indeed there was a link from Padstow to Newquay (and then trains could run on to Perranporth & Port Perran). That way, I can justify SR locos/stock reaching Port Perran !
My fictional extension will incorporate a harbourside station / goods yard that can handle fictional fish traffic and imported goods etc.
However, it will have to wait till well after Christmas before work starts !
I very much look forward next year then to seeing the new branch to the harbour with the SR locos.
Next year, I plan to begin with Cant Cove the small intermediate station near Penmayne (the original terminus of the line from Wadebridge before the money to tunnel through Cant Hill and on to Penmayne, actually Porthilly, was raised), a typical North Cornwall station with passing loop and small goods yard. Whilst the whole of Penmayne is planned out, after 30 years, and being new to DCC and electrical operation of points etc., I thought a simple station would be the place to begin. It still has plenty of scenic opportunities with a bridge over Cant Cove which has a beach and a stream running into the sea with a half-sunken ship in the middle of the bay. (In real life Cant Cove is all mud but, in my scenario, sand dredged from Porthilly Cove to make Penmayne Harbour deep enough was dumped in Cant Cove after the mud had been dug out as part of a job creation scheme by the local landowner. Times were hard in North Cornwall in the nineteenth century. The half-sunken wreck in Cant Cove IS there, though).
Quote from: port perran on November 06, 2013, 09:39:21 PM
Yes......in my mind Port Perran is situated twixt what is Hayle and Perranporth. My proposed extension will be to a small harbourside location between (roughly) Perranporth & Newquay.
I plan to imagine that indeed there was a link from Padstow to Newquay (and then trains could run on to Perranporth & Port Perran). That way, I can justify SR locos/stock reaching Port Perran !
I'm reading a lot of books about the railways in the Padstow - Wadebridge - Bodmin area. The following is from "The Bodmin and Wadebridge Railway" by C.F.D. Whetmath (1972), p23:
"Two lines proposed in 1873 were of local interest, and were under identical control. The Bodmin & Wadebridge and Delabole was yet another attempt to provide a rail connection from Wenford to the great slate quarry at Delabole, whilst the Cornwall Minerals and Bodmin & Wadebridge Junction Railway was to connect the Cornwall Minerals Railway, then under construction from Fowey to Newquay, with Ruthern Bridge [a branch of the Bodmin & Wadebridge]. The object was to provide an outlet for mineral traffic superior to Wadebridge. The two lines were granted running powers between Ruthern and Wenford, construction of a direct curve at Grogley to avoid a reversal there was envisaged. Although authorised on 5th August 1873, no construction was undertaken owing to the failure of a mining company which had guaranteed a considerable amount of traffic and, despite an extension of time being granted in 1876 the companies were wound up by Acts of 28th March 1878." So, Newquay COULD have been linked to Bodmin. So, there's your historical link, Port Perran?
And earlier, in 1865, (same source, p23) there had been a proposal for a line from Ruthern Bridge to Truro.
Of course, more useful, for Port Perran were the schemes to build lines from Wadebridge or Padstow SW.
For me, of more interest (p18, same book) was that in 1845, "the Rock & Delabole Railway was proposed between these two points to convey traffic from the great slate quarry at Delabole to a new harbour at Rock, a small village on the [River] Camel estuary opposite Padstow, but after a meeting with the B&W directors it was agreed to construct the new line from an end-on junction at Wenford Bridge up the valley of the River Camel to Delabole. . . . Unfortunately . . . nothing more [was] heard of the Rock & Delabole Railway."
I'm assuming that it went ahead, in the late 1840s and linked Rock with Delabole with a junction connecting the line with the B&W near Wadebridge. As a result, Rock gre to become much larger than Padstow. Large enough, in fact, to justify keeping the line open.
(p21) "The Cornwall Railway proposed [in 1845] a broad-gauge line from Plymouth, where it would connect with the South Devon Railway and, therefore, the Great Western Railway, to Truro and passing nearly four miles south-east of Bodmin with a short branch to serve the town, whilst the standard gauge Cornwall & Devon Central Railway proposed a route from Falmouth through Wadebridge to Exeter, where connection with the London & South Western Railway was envisaged. Both of these companies offered to purchase the Bodmin & Wadebridge." [Of course, neither proposed railway was ever built.]
Interesting stuff. Thanks for that.
My pleasure. I need to find the reference(s) in another book to the planned lines SW of Padstow and Wadebridge (different schemes) as the Padstow one would fi your scenario best Port Perran although the one from Wadebridge, perhaps, would be even better? I read about them but need to find the reference(s) as I said.