Are electrofrog points really necessary for slow running?

[poliss]

The reason people give for not using insulfrog are that locos stall when they go over the plastic frog at a crawl. I say the reason they stall is because the locos are poorly made.  I can't see any other technical reason for using electrofrogs.

I only need one switch to operate my Kato double scissors and because they come with built in point motors they are £24.00 cheaper, not counting the cost of the extra switches the Peco double scissors need.

[cupoftea]

Hi Poliss

Kato points do seem to be pretty 'bomb proof' but I would hazard a guess that the majority of people reading this forum and contemplating an N Gauge layout have already or are about to buy Peco track in one of it's flavours - if for no other reason than it is universally available. My experience, limited though it is, of using peco points is that 'out of the box' they benefit from using a switched direct feed to the 'blades' and frog rather than relying upon the blade's contact with a rail to provide a supply. Given that this is beneficial then it would seem to make sense to adopt a 'belt and braces' approach and use electrofrog points.

I have had problems running both a Farish class 04 shunter and an 0-6-0 tank engine over insulfrog points. I know that in both cases the contacts to the wheels were making good contact and were clean. I have heard good things about Kato Unitrack from folks who use it and may well try it at some point in the future but for the layout I am building now I used Peco code 80.

[poliss]

I think you're missing my point H. Pardon the pun. It's not about whether or not I prefer insulfrogs. It's about the fact that short wheelbase British outline locos seem to stall on them whereas my Continental and US locos don't.

[ToothFairy]

I think you're missing my point H. Pardon the pun. It's not about whether or not I prefer insulfrogs. It's about the fact that short wheelbase British outline locos seem to stall on them whereas my Continental and US locos don't.

OK: that's not an argument against using electrofrog points; it's an argument for not using British outline. Not an option if you are modelling ECML 1938, for example.

- Michael

[H]

I think you're missing my point H.

Nope, not missing the point, just carefully reading your posts.

It's about the fact that short wheelbase British outline locos seem to stall on them whereas my Continental and US locos don't.

In which case the thread should be about British vs Continental/Amercian outline models and not electro-frog vs insul-frog points.  

H.

[elmo]

My views on electro/insulfrog:
You can get excellent slow running on plastic frogs BUT you are relying on perfect electrical pickup from all wheels. Use an electric wheel cleaner and check each axle at a time. Running may slow down or stop when changing the angle of the wheel e.g. pushing the axle to left or right of the chassis block. this demonstrates that the wheel/pick ups may not be clean throughout a complete revolution as dirt builds up or that the pickup needs adjusting. A short base loco may only have one axle in electrical contact on a plastic frog. If this is not 100% eletrically sound then  it will stall.

In about 1980 I was at an exhibition in Plymouth where a bloke had an N Gauge shunting challenge using a farish 08 with Peco insulfrog points. When speaking to him I mentioned about my 08 always stopped on the type of point he was using. He then showed me that the tyre depth was too much for the frog so he had ground out the depth slightly. My 08 was stopping because the wheel flange was grounding/rubbing against the side and base  of the plastic. he then showed me the pitfall of this remedy by running  aminitrix dock tank over the point. It dipped heavilly to one side when going over the frog. Newer stock will not have the flange depth problem but incorrect back to backs could leave wheels rubbing against the side of the frog.

My current layouts have electro frogs. The only plastic frogs that I have are two set track Peco points in the fiddle yard of an exhibition layout. The layout is a steam shunting type so slow speeds are essential. For a two day exhibition the track is scrubbed and wheels cleaned the night before. Occasional dirt spots appear on the track by the end of  day one but I do not have problems with electro frog points. The sure fire way of knowing when loco wheels need seeing to is when they stall on the set track frog, generally on the curved direction. This lets me know that dirt has built generally on the back of the wheel. I get no indication of this problem whilst running on electro frogs.

Elmo

[Bikeracer]

I'm using Insulfrog points on my layout in progress,but I'm thinking of taking the sixteen that are fixed down and changing for Electrofrog,not a task I'm looking forward to especially as I can no longer lift the baseboard for access underneath.

The reason at the moment is that for the first time I've got a bad stalling problem on the plastic part of the frog,this happens on a Hall class Farish loco that I've put DCC in.On examination the middle driving wheel stops over the frog and the front driving wheel stops over the live rail,I think the problem is the front axle is too tight in the chassis slot and cannot drop to make contact with the rail,so I've eased the slot to allow some axle freedom.I'll know if that's the problem later on today.

If that hasn't cured it I should have some new main wheel and tender pick ups coming tomorrow to fit,If I've still got a problem it'll be an expensive rip up and replace and I really want to get my goods yard down,but there's not much point leaving things as they are,constantly having to nudge the loco over the points unless it's going flat out.

Allan

[4x2]

I've seen Farish 04's crawl over large radius insulfrog points without stopping, and on the same point a dapol britainia stop dead - Both down to pick ups !

Out of the box many models have poorly adjusted pick ups and if you have any running issues, i would start with the pick ups.

As for the points, I find the electrofrogs more troublesome than the insulfrogs and often end up getting the file out to lower the frog as it sits too high. Insulfrogs are easier to 'tweek' if needed, i've recently found that adding some pva in to the bottom of the frog can stop the smaller wheels sets from dropping into the gap - not recommended if you have older stock though !

To answer the original question - Are electrofrog points really necessary for slow running? - My answer would be... No, they are not 'necessary' but they will help if you use smaller loco's, with larger loco's it doesn't make any difference.

[dodger]

In an ideal world everything would crawl over an insulfrog but. In a practical world there are many variables such as the number of wheels in contact with the rail, the numbers contacts operative and the trueness of the point. Even a six-coupled chassis will only have one wheelset in contact with the metal rails when passing over an insulfrog. If that wheelset is not perfect then stalling could occur.

For that reason even when modelling in a larger scale I change to electrofrog points and did not consider anything else for n gauge.

As Poliss said it could be just down to manufacturing tolerances with british models but to achieve a reasonable standard of operation and appearance in my opinion they are essential.

A bit of additional wiring is no hardship.

[Bikeracer]

Out of the box many models have poorly adjusted pick ups and if you have any running issues, i would start with the pick ups.

After some more fiddling and observing the slow running I'm beginning to think it's a pickup problem more than anything else,I'll see what new pickups do first and then I'll put some tender pickups in,I really don't want to start pulling my track apart at this stage.

Allan

[4x2]

Tender pick ups on farish loco's make a big difference - well worth the effort !

[Kipper]

Interesting comments. I have a Bachman/Farish 0-6-0 tank loco, which manages insulfrogs as easy as pie, however, I also have two old Farish 57 foot Southern carriages which derail when going over Setrack insulfrogs. Will have to have a good look at the wheels, as they may be too deeply flanged. They do, however, negotiate Peco express points with insulfrogs. Very strange.

[4x2]

Throw away the old 'pizza cutters' and fit some new Farish coach wheel sets, they will be a lot better and much less likely to derail. 

[Mustermark]

I've seen Farish 04's crawl over large radius insulfrog points without stopping, and on the same point a dapol britainia stop dead - Both down to pick ups !

Out of the box many models have poorly adjusted pick ups and if you have any running issues, i would start with the pick ups.

As for the points, I find the electrofrogs more troublesome than the insulfrogs and often end up getting the file out to lower the frog as it sits too high. Insulfrogs are easier to 'tweek' if needed, i've recently found that adding some pva in to the bottom of the frog can stop the smaller wheels sets from dropping into the gap - not recommended if you have older stock though !

To answer the original question - Are electrofrog points really necessary for slow running? - My answer would be... No, they are not 'necessary' but they will help if you use smaller loco's, with larger loco's it doesn't make any difference.

Completely agree. Not actually necessary. Ripping up would be a last resort. Choosing what to buy in the first place is a bit different, especially if you are going DCC.  All my 90 points are insulfrog and i get good running on all of the clean ones with my 08 shunter.

Bikeracer, good luck with the pick ups. Ripping up would be a heartache I am sure.

[EtchedPixels]

If you are getting derailments on Peco points with pizza cutters then check the back to back as the Peco points are perfectly happy with old deep wheels. Kato ones are a bit of  a different story.

I use electrofrog points for most stuff. It's better with small tank locos and shunters as a tiny bit of dirt doesn't cause problems. Also with the very rigid old Farish locos which are terribly vulnerable otherwise to the tiniest bit of vertical twist or bend of the point.

The non-Peco ones are less of an issue. The Fleischmann ones have metal power feeds down much of the frog, the Kato points are electrofrog but internally switched etc. It's just the very large size of the plastic part of the frog on the Peco designs.

Alan