price rises - how long can this be sustainable

[davidinyork]

Sorry to repeat myself, David, but unless it gets back to the manufacturer it won't get registered as a return so that's what I'd do. If Rails don't have one that passes inspection then the choice is yours whether to accept a substandard item.

Yes, true. I think that having had two now and wasted a day and twenty quid on the train going down there on Saturday, I'll just admit defeat and send it back for a refund. Clearly Bachmann's quality control is simply not good enough to have any confidence of getting an item without some fault or another. Dapol don't seem much better (although with them it's usually badly-made circuit boards).

Is OO gauge this bad these days? I've not bought anything much in that scale for a few years, but I do have a number of fairly recent Hornby and Bachmann locos (i.e. those from the DCC-socket era) and don't recall having any problems with any of them.

Just to follow up on this, I emailed Rails and explained the problem and they replied:

My colleague and I have had a look over a few more of these models and
it does seem to be a common issue unfortunately.

It is difficult to notice at first, but in the right light you can see
that one of the red lights are dimmer than the other. This does seem to
be a issue with this particular model unfortunately.

It was good of them to go to the trouble of checking several models. Doesn't exactly reflect well on Bachmann though.

[Newportnobby]

I feel extremely sorry for anyone wanting the Farish Inspection Saloon who didn't get it from the NGS as Farish are listing it on their website at £39.95 whilst Rails are showing it at £31.95.
Firstly, £39.95 is laughable when stacked against their own Autotrailer which is listed on the Farish site at £34.95 and on Rails at £29.71.
Secondly, Rails price for the Autotrailer is a true 15% discount whereas their price for the Inspection Saloon is a reduction of 20%

[ScottyStitch]

I feel extremely sorry for anyone wanting the Farish Inspection Saloon who didn't get it from the NGS as Farish are listing it on their website at £39.95 whilst Rails are showing it at £31.95.
Firstly, £39.95 is laughable when stacked against their own Autotrailer which is listed on the Farish site at £34.95 and on Rails at £29.71.
Secondly, Rails price for the Autotrailer is a true 15% discount whereas their price for the Inspection Saloon is a reduction of 20%

Interesting, Mick.

It does seem a bit OTT for the saloon. I wonder, did they recover their costs on the NGS run? If so, perhaps there is an argument that they are out and out profiteering now from the desirability of the item? I don't say that lightly, as I don't think anything else is necessarily overpriced from Farish.

I think a Mk1 is retailing (after discounting) at around £25. Farish would have recovered the tooling costs a few times over, I'd have thought, on those so it does seem a bit suspicious that the saloon is so expensive (assuming costs have been recovered.)

[Ben A]

Hello all,

From Bachmann's point of view, it's once tooling costs have been recovered and they move into profit that a model actually becomes worthwhile.

After all, they still have to pay their staff and other costs day-in-day-out, so they need an ongoing source of revenue.

Also, the NGS has a different pricing model to most retailers (mainly because we are aiming to be a benefit to our members, not a burden!) so our "new"price for things like the Saloons (and the upcoming Thompsn BG, come to that) significnatly cheaper than RRP anyway.

I can't recall the exact figures but off the top of my head I think that the RRP on the model when we produced should have worked out at about £32 but we offered it for £27.

And, incidentally, I think some are still in stock at that price at the NGS shop.

Cheers

Ben A.
(NGS VP)

[paulprice]

I think regardless of the price I will be getting one, because not only does it save me the time in trying to build one, but the quality if the finished product regardless of its source from the NGS or a normal retailer is stunning.

I have been thinking about this over the last couple of days and I will probably get lynched, but is there an element hear where are are all just having a bit of a moan. Think about it everything is getting more expensive, just look at how much a loaf of bread is, or even newspapers. I have to buy the local rag the other week to see if an advert had ben posted, and it cost me £1.05 what a rip off.

When you think about standard of the models you get know out of the box (I know there are some QC issues with loco's) we take things like, actual handrails, brake block and rigging, details cab interiors, day light under boilers, spoked wheels, lights, vac pipes, coupling hooks etc etc for granted, where as a few years a go you would only get this kind of details if you commissioned a professional modeller, or if you had the skills to do it yourself with the impact on time and expense.

We have running around our layouts stock that 5-10 years ago would have been museum quality I think we are very lucky

[Bob Tidbury]

Yes Paul I agree about the amount of detail on the lattest models ,but that's all very well , it's the reliability of the models that's  of concerne to me ,it's all very well having all that detail but if the motor fails you end up with a static super detailed expensive show piece .I personally would rather have a loco that will last a long time than one with all the detailed under frames and brake gear that you can't see when the loco is doing what you bought it for which is pulling your stock round your layout.
Maybe the manufacturers could do two types of models one with all the super details but no motors for those that just display thier models ,and one without the detail but better quality electrics for those that want to actualy use them.
Just my opinion you understand.
Bob

[ScottyStitch]

I think regardless of the price I will be getting one, because not only does it save me the time in trying to build one, but the quality if the finished product regardless of its source from the NGS or a normal retailer is stunning.

I have been thinking about this over the last couple of days and I will probably get lynched, but is there an element hear where are are all just having a bit of a moan. Think about it everything is getting more expensive, just look at how much a loaf of bread is, or even newspapers. I have to buy the local rag the other week to see if an advert had ben posted, and it cost me £1.05 what a rip off.

When you think about standard of the models you get know out of the box (I know there are some QC issues with loco's) we take things like, actual handrails, brake block and rigging, details cab interiors, day light under boilers, spoked wheels, lights, vac pipes, coupling hooks etc etc for granted, where as a few years a go you would only get this kind of details if you commissioned a professional modeller, or if you had the skills to do it yourself with the impact on time and expense.

We have running around our layouts stock that 5-10 years ago would have been museum quality I think we are very lucky

Agreed.

[Newportnobby]

I have been thinking about this over the last couple of days and I will probably get lynched, but is there an element hear where are are all just having a bit of a moan.

As someone who, until a recent medical event, used to spend £45 a week on a filthy habit which was killing me by degrees and literally burning money, I can't complain too much about the price rises but what I can complain about is how those rises are hidden behind the excuse of the Chinese Government forcing wages up and being excessive in the extreme. Everyone in the supply chain has to make a living but, and I aim this fairly and squarely at Farish, to apply the full percentage of a wage rise when wages represent a fairly small percentage of overall costs is pretty disgusting and left me no option but to drastically reduce my pre orders. If my example was followed by many others who does this hurt the most? The manufacturer - who can then be deemed to have shot themselves in the foot, and the rest of us in some other way as the N gauge market will be considered to have shrunk and I don't believe this is the case at all

[red_death]

what I can complain about is how those rises are hidden behind the excuse of the Chinese Government forcing wages up and being excessive in the extreme. Everyone in the supply chain has to make a living but, and I aim this fairly and squarely at Farish, to apply the full percentage of a wage rise when wages represent a fairly small percentage of overall costs is pretty disgusting

We need to put to bed this myth that worker wages are not a hugely important part of the costs of manufacturer.

Tooling is expensive but for the larger manufacturers they can amortise the cost across a much larger production run(s) than a smaller manufacturer so the cost is largely down to the unit costs which in turn are largely down to how complicated something is to manufacture (in our case mainly down to how time-consuming it is to put together which could be because of lots of separate parts or just that the model is of something complex).

Pretending that wages don't have a massive impact on that is just burying your head in the sand!
The proof (if you don't believe me and I see the different costs!) is in the accounts of Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann etc - many of which are possible to view (either for free or a small charge) and none of which are showing companies that are making bags of cash hand over fist.

Cheers, Mike

[paulprice]

I agree, its a fact that production costs in China have risen significantly because of the rise in the basic wage.

I have been in the logistics and supply chain business for years and have actually planned a run manufacturing of products in dedicated factories in china. Although its hitting us modellers its good to see that the basic wages are going up in the country, and its moving away from the old situation were you literally paid pennies, to a system where people are actually being paid near ethical wages.

The problem I use to have was when my production needs out stripped the capacity of my dedicate plants. Then I would have to outsource and effectively buy production time from companies, that sold daily/weekly production slots to multiple customers. The problem then being as your charged a fixed cost per hour, rather than on a piecemeal basis, if your product was complicated to assembly the time increased so the cost per item increased.

Gone are the days when you can expect cheap production in China, its already at the stage where analysts like me are looking at India, Egypt, Mexico and Brazil to exploit cheaper production costs.

Just a though, god I hate being sensible, back to lunacy for me 

[Newportnobby]

what I can complain about is how those rises are hidden behind the excuse of the Chinese Government forcing wages up and being excessive in the extreme. Everyone in the supply chain has to make a living but, and I aim this fairly and squarely at Farish, to apply the full percentage of a wage rise when wages represent a fairly small percentage of overall costs is pretty disgusting

We need to put to bed this myth that worker wages are not a hugely important part of the costs of manufacturer.

Tooling is expensive but for the larger manufacturers they can amortise the cost across a much larger production run(s) than a smaller manufacturer so the cost is largely down to the unit costs which in turn are largely down to how complicated something is to manufacture (in our case mainly down to how time-consuming it is to put together which could be because of lots of separate parts or just that the model is of something complex).

Pretending that wages don't have a massive impact on that is just burying your head in the sand!
The proof (if you don't believe me and I see the different costs!) is in the accounts of Hornby, Dapol, Bachmann etc - many of which are possible to view (either for free or a small charge) and none of which are showing companies that are making bags of cash hand over fist.

Cheers, Mike

Sorry, Mike, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I've said before I worked in manufacturing in costing/estimating, production planning etc and items that take several processes to make the complete article had total labour costs c.40%, and these were expensive NGA and SOGAT union members! I can't imagine the proportion of the labour cost in a Chinese plant approaches anything like 40% although I am prepared to be proved wrong by anyone. Until then you will not change my mind one iota.

[Chris Morris]

As has been said it doesn't look like anyone in the UK model railway business is making huge profits.
I started in N in November 2012. This is after highly detailed models became the norm but before prices suddenly rose sharply. I was still at work and rapidly built up my collection at reasonable prices. Just four years later I'm not sure I would be so keen to start modelling in N because the prices are so much higher and bargains are much harder to find. Maybe there needs to be some more basic models available to get people started. The manufacturers will know whether there is a market for this but the railroad series doesn't seem to have helped Hornby.
I am quite picky and only buy what fits in with my projects. If something new comes out that suits my needs I will buy it pretty much regardless of price. If I buy a couple of locos and half a dozen coaches in a year and spend less than £500 then model railways is still a cheap hobby compared to many others. just think of the total cost of a weekend away - fuel, hotel, dinner, drinks etc.

[red_death]

Sorry, Mike, but we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I've said before I worked in manufacturing in costing/estimating, production planning etc and items that take several processes to make the complete article had total labour costs c.40%, and these were expensive NGA and SOGAT union members! I can't imagine the proportion of the labour cost in a Chinese plant approaches anything like 40% although I am prepared to be proved wrong by anyone. Until then you will not change my mind one iota.

Mick

5 years ago I would have agreed with you (when tooling was the dominant cost), but times have changed. We are getting small run products with lots of parts that require significant amounts of manual assembly.

I'm not sure what proof you would accept, but as I said - I see the costs for our models and I know the splits between tooling and manufacturing (and Bachmann's will be similar though they also have much greater overheads than Ben and I do!).

Cheers, Mike

[Newportnobby]

I'm not sure what proof you would accept

A simple figure showing the labour cost as a percentage of overall manufacturing cost, Mike, not that I think any of the manufacturers would dare cough that figure up

Maybe the manufacturers could do two types of models one with all the super details but no motors for those that just display thier models ,and one without the detail but better quality electrics for those that want to actualy use them.

Bob

Maybe there needs to be some more basic models available to get people started.

Sorry, Bob & Chris, but the delays on getting an announced model to market are currently such that, with the best will in the world, I cannot see anyone making dual sets of things to different standards, especially as the N gauge market has been demanding more detail. You only have to read on this forum how many folks have moved from 00 to N owing to the quantum leap in quality to see a retrograde step just is not the way forward The problem is the improvement in quality has mainly been in the looks department rather than the running side of things (although the coreless motor from Farish is a beauty and hopefully the Dapol one will prove its equal). However, that's another subject and is being done to death in other threads.

[red_death]

A simple figure showing the labour cost as a percentage of overall manufacturing cost, Mike, not that I think any of the manufacturers would dare cough that figure up

Nor should they because it varies for each model! I can give you figures but if you won't trust me telling you are wrong then why would you believe my figures...