Over on groups.io Maurice of Osborns Models fame has reported on a conversation with Mr. Kato regarding a planned modern 1/148 scale train for the British market.
Speculation revolves around Hitachi Class 800 derivatives, or maybe a Class 395. The 5 car bimode 800s have plenty of potential liveries especially if they are outwardly very similar. TPE, Hull Trains, LNER, GWR for starters. And maybe the 9 cars all electrics could be accommodated too.
I would rule out the Eurostar ICE because I am sure that would be 1/160 scale, and a GNER Eurostar would use the existing 1/160 mouldings.
Interesting :hmmm:
The 800 is, to me, a thing of beauty but I still won't be getting one. Be nice to see one, though.
Mr. Kato has been in the UK very recently, according to his Facebook posts, so there might be something to that.
Interesting indeed! :thumbsup:
I'm interested, very!
Kato had better do their research on DCC though. Their existing US models need a full PCB replacement, rather than a simple, plug the decoder in.
John P
They're starting to do 'proper' DCC now, and I'm sure they'd do their homework on local preferences for a new model. I hope anyway!
What's the score with Hornby's exclusivity on the 800s? Presumably Kato would have to pay a licence fee to Hornby. One imagines that would be rather easy to absorb, mind.
Seems an obvious choice. Given they were apparently dissatisfied with sales volumes on the Eurostars I can't imagine they'd do a GNER one.
Interesting stuff.
The exclusive licence intrigues me as well.
Time for a new topic.
John P
Quote from: jpendle on February 09, 2019, 04:11:43 PM
The exclusive licence intrigues me as well.
So it'll be a 66 then. Nobody's done one of those yet. ;)
NeMo
A Javelin would go alongside their Eurostar despite its scale differences.
However an 800 would have wider appeal.
If it is like the diecast car world then exclusive licences are scale specific so Hornby would not have paid for an N licence unless they intended to make the model.
A direct parallel exists in the model bus market where Corgi Collectibles have the exclusive licence for the 1/76 scale New Routemaster, Oxford Diecast have it for 1/148 N version , and Tiny have it for 1/110 scale.
Quote from: jpendle on February 09, 2019, 03:09:46 PM
I'm interested, very!
Kato had better do their research on DCC though. Their existing US models need a full PCB replacement, rather than a simple, plug the decoder in.
John P
The most recent SNCF TGV models have had 6 pin connectors for DCC.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on February 09, 2019, 04:36:36 PM
If it is like the diecast car world then exclusive licences are scale specific so Hornby would not have paid for an N licence unless they intended to make the model.
A direct parallel exists in the model bus market where Corgi Collectibles have the exclusive licence for the 1/76 scale New Routemaster, Oxford Diecast have it for 1/148 N version , and Tiny have it for 1/110 scale.
I thought as much, but according to things Ben Ando, among others more knowledgeable than me have heard, apparently the Hornby deal is for all scales. Now... if they told Hitachi they'd do an N gauge one, but aren't, and are blocking others who may have paid Hitachi, they may be negotiable.
Although I imagine any license fee due to Hornby would be pocket change to Kato.
Quote from: NeMo on February 09, 2019, 04:34:24 PM
So it'll be a 66 then. Nobody's done one of those yet. ;)
Kato already do 66s in the correct scale for n gauge :D
Quote from: njee20 on February 09, 2019, 06:15:21 PM
I thought as much, but according to things Ben Ando, among others more knowledgeable than me have heard, apparently the Hornby deal is for all scales.
Perhaps Kato could manufacturer it for release under Hornby branding.
I'm sure they could, but I can't see why they would, that'd be like me setting up Nick's Trains and getting Farish to brand a model as mine!
For Hornby it's got to be the perfect solution - probably the largest brand in the industry, with the deepest pockets, offering to pay a licence cost. If it's a per-unit cost then they're away, probably solves their financial woes in one fell swoop!
Would be great, given Kato's tendency to offer 'proper' book sets of 8+ coaches; rather than piecemeal sets where you wait 3 years for the mismatched coaches!
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 09, 2019, 06:45:17 PM
Quote from: NeMo on February 09, 2019, 04:34:24 PM
So it'll be a 66 then. Nobody's done one of those yet. ;)
Kato already do 66s in the correct scale for n gauge :D
It's correct for Europe (1/160)
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
Yes, That the joke... they're all Coninental prototypes anyway, they've not actually done any UK models.
1/150 would be stupid. It would be wrong for the UK market, and it's obviously totally wrong anyway for the Japanese market. If they wanted to do a 66 intended for the UK market they'd be insane to do anything other than 1:148 IMO. Can't see it though, Farish and Dapol have the market pretty well down up. The obvious improvement would be sound fitted/easily compatible, and that's not gonna come from Kato.
Quote from: njee20 on February 09, 2019, 10:47:01 PM
1/150 would be stupid. It would be wrong for the UK market, and it's obviously totally wrong anyway for the Japanese market.
Both Kato and Tomix have released 1:150 continental prototypes which are also marketed in Japan. Though as they already do a 1:160 66, and it has no obvious Japanese connection, I don't imagine any developments there.
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.
And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.
And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.
Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?
Quote from: gc4946 on February 10, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.
And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.
Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?
AFAIK the prototype is the 885 series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_series) which runs in Kyushu, Kato does a couple of variants:
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei)
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic)
I'm not familiar with either prototype (Kyushu is a long way away, and the UK even further...)
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:13:41 AM
Quote from: gc4946 on February 10, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.
And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.
Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?
AFAIK the prototype is the 885 series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_series) which runs in Kyushu, Kato does a couple of variants:
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei)
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic)
I'm not familiar with either prototype (Kyushu is a long way away...)
I recall they tilt :D
The difference from 1:150 to 1:148 is 1.3%.
If Farish or Dapol were regularly within 1.3% of accuracy I would be ecstatic, and I use 2mm (1:152) items converted to N all the time.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 10, 2019, 12:29:24 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:13:41 AM
Quote from: gc4946 on February 10, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.
And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.
Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?
AFAIK the prototype is the 885 series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/885_series) which runs in Kyushu, Kato does a couple of variants:
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei)
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic)
I'm not familiar with either prototype (Kyushu is a long way away...)
I recall they tilt :D
The difference from 1:150 to 1:148 is 1.3%.
If Farish or Dapol were regularly within 1.3% of accuracy I would be ecstatic, and I use 2mm (1:152) items converted to N all the time.
I don't have anything citeable at hand, but different Japanese manufacturers are perfectly capable of making models of exactly the same prototype with measurably different dimensions.
1:150 would make more sense for the 800 than the 66, as it'll never sit alongside a 1:148 one, unless Hornby then did a proper 1:148 one having recouped license costs from Kato. It would still be about an inch 'too short' over its length, which isn't exactly trivial, but yes if they were modifying an existing tooling then it would be understandable.
Well at least we know now it won't be sets of MK5s...... :D
Kato announces class 800
http://www.jp-ngauge.info/ngi/2019/07/kato2019-6f3c.html (http://www.jp-ngauge.info/ngi/2019/07/kato2019-6f3c.html)
Photo is from a hobby show taking place in Tokyo today.
Hello all,
Great news! I had heard that the Hornby licence expires next year, which presumably is how Kato have managed to negotiate this, with the very clear launch date of 2021.
The issue around scale is a tough one. My understanding is that in Japan the Shinkansen trains (standard gauge) are modelled to 1:160 which is the correct scale/gauge combination, while the commuter trains (3'6 gauge?) are modelled to 1:150 which is close to correct.
From my brief but interesting discussions with Mr Kato at Warley last year I got the sense that he cannot understand why anyone would want a model that is not the correct scale/Gauge combination, and would need some convincing to put out an "incorrect" Kato model.
I suspect the Class 800 will be to 1:160, but of course he will be attending TINGS so maybe this is a good chance to lobby him?
Cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on July 27, 2019, 08:16:52 AM
Hello all,
Great news! I had heard that the Hornby licence expires next year, which presumably is how Kato have managed to negotiate this, with the very clear launch date of 2021.
The issue around scale is a tough one. My understanding is that in Japan the Shinkansen trains (standard gauge) are modelled to 1:160 which is the correct scale/gauge combination, while the commuter trains (3'6 gauge?) are modelled to 1:150 which is close to correct.
rom my brief but interesting discussions with Mr Kato at Warley last year I got the sense that he cannot understand why anyone would want a model that is not the correct scale/Gauge combination, and would need some convincing to put out an "incorrect" Kato model.
I suspect the Class 800 will be to 1:160, but of course he will be attending TINGS so maybe this is a good chance to lobby him?
The most common gauge is the 3'6" (1067mm) Cape Gauge, which in N scale would be about 7mm, which means the majority of Kato N scale stock is running on a very unprototypical broad gauge.
(FWIW there is a small "Nj" scene dedicated to the correct gauge for Japanese N scale, see .g.. http://vivant.jp/nj-hatena.htm (http://vivant.jp/nj-hatena.htm)).
If Kato are basing this on existing tooling for Japanese models, I'd expect it to be 1:150.
I'm really surprised they can't understand that people would want things to match, even if prototypically inaccurate. To release a 1:160 model would seem woefully short sighted of them. Fingers crossed they are convinced otherwise.
Well this is a nice surprise to wake up to. :D I think it's fair to say that most of us expected this, but it's great to read it confirmed in black and white.
As for the question of scale, the biggest market for this prototype is surely the UK. So IMHO to maximise ROI Kato must release this model in British Outline N Gauge. Would I buy this model in Continental N? No, absolutely not! In British Outline N Gauge, I'd be in for several - increasingly so as the prototype spreads across the network in the years ahead.
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2019, 08:51:36 AM
Quote from: Ben A on July 27, 2019, 08:16:52 AM
Hello all,
Great news! I had heard that the Hornby licence expires next year, which presumably is how Kato have managed to negotiate this, with the very clear launch date of 2021.
The issue around scale is a tough one. My understanding is that in Japan the Shinkansen trains (standard gauge) are modelled to 1:160 which is the correct scale/gauge combination, while the commuter trains (3'6 gauge?) are modelled to 1:150 which is close to correct.
rom my brief but interesting discussions with Mr Kato at Warley last year I got the sense that he cannot understand why anyone would want a model that is not the correct scale/Gauge combination, and would need some convincing to put out an "incorrect" Kato model.
I suspect the Class 800 will be to 1:160, but of course he will be attending TINGS so maybe this is a good chance to lobby him?
The most common gauge is the 3'6" (1067mm) Cape Gauge, which in N scale would be about 7mm, which means the majority of Kato N scale stock is running on a very unprototypical broad gauge.
(FWIW there is a small "Nj" scene dedicated to the correct gauge for Japanese N scale, see .g.. http://vivant.jp/nj-hatena.htm (http://vivant.jp/nj-hatena.htm)).
If Kato are basing this on existing tooling for Japanese models, I'd expect it to be 1:150.
Historically the Kato "European High Speed Trains Series" they produced for the European market were designed in Europe by a third party (name escapes me) so TGV, Eurostar etc. and were therefore scaled for their target market at 1:160.
If the model is designed in Japan, as all their other Japanese outline models are, it will almost certainly be 1:150, and as Railsquid indicates the 800 is an evolution of some of their existing models so wont be a gigantic leap for their Japanese design team.
I really like the idea of the 800 and I hope the liveries include the GWR. (As the Virgin Azuma may no longer exist in 2021)
And also the class 802s built or currently being built for GWR, Transpennine, and Hull Trains.
I'd be interested in a Transpennine version :claphappy:
I should say the individual class 800 carriages are 26m long which works out in 1:148 as 175.67 mm.
A nine-car unit would be 1581 mm long ...
then you'll need to allow room for couplings, allowing for that my guess the complete formation would approach 1630 mm.
It would be longer than my Revolution Trains' 9-car Pendolino!
A 9-car unit isn't feasible with my current setup but a 5-car version would suit me fine.
A 1:148 5-car 800 or 802 unit would roughly be the same length as a 2+5 HST which I also own.
A little OT, but not entirely.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/)
Presumably with Peco involved, this will be to 1/76?
Best
Scott
Quote from: NGS-PO on July 27, 2019, 10:40:46 AM
A little OT, but not entirely.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/)
Presumably with Peco involved, this will be to 1/76?
Very relevant I'd say. It adds weight to the argument that Kato are keen to produce product appealing to the British modeller and thus that the 800 will be produced to British Outline N Gauge.
Quote from: RailGooner on July 27, 2019, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: NGS-PO on July 27, 2019, 10:40:46 AM
A little OT, but not entirely.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/)
Presumably with Peco involved, this will be to 1/76?
Very relevant I'd say. It adds weight to the argument that Kato are keen to produce product appealing to the British modeller and thus that the 800 will be produced to British Outline N Gauge.
Interesting - there has been a large display of Peco track and accessories in the Kato HQ shop in Tokyo since earlier this year.
Yep, put me down for an 800. :ngauge:
Love my Kato track and keen to see if Kato locos are as reliable and robust as everyone says they are!
While you're at it Mr. Kato, I don't suppose you'd like to turn out a 4VEP, a Thumper or a 170 with working lights? :D
Alec.
Quote from: Invicta Alec on July 27, 2019, 12:02:08 PM
Love my Kato track and keen to see if Kato locos are as reliable and robust as everyone says they are!
I have a large number ranging from brand new to over 30 years old and they are pretty consistent in their reliability, and easy to maintain. My main gripe is the lack of a standard coupling socket, I keep buying second hand ones for not very much money and realising there's a coupling or two missing or swapped for something I can't use, then finding out the coupling is a part specific to the loco in question, so I now have a drawer with dozens of different Kato coupling types...
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
Quote from: RailGooner on July 27, 2019, 11:26:29 AM
Quote from: NGS-PO on July 27, 2019, 10:40:46 AM
A little OT, but not entirely.
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/146262-katopeco-announce-fr-locos-in-009-confirmed/)
Presumably with Peco involved, this will be to 1/76?
Very relevant I'd say. It adds weight to the argument that Kato are keen to produce product appealing to the British modeller and thus that the 800 will be produced to British Outline N Gauge.
Interesting - there has been a large display of Peco track and accessories in the Kato HQ shop in Tokyo since earlier this year.
This one:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48386674052_0d2982e203_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gHLmqU)
Kato Hobby Centre Tokyo - Peco accessories (https://flic.kr/p/2gHLmqU) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2019, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
..
Interesting - there has been a large display of Peco track and accessories in the Kato HQ shop in Tokyo since earlier this year.
This one:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48386674052_0d2982e203_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gHLmqU)
Kato Hobby Centre Tokyo - Peco accessories (https://flic.kr/p/2gHLmqU) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Very good of you to pop round there and quickly snap that for us Squidy! :D
Quote from: RailGooner on July 27, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2019, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: railsquid on July 27, 2019, 11:40:19 AM
..
Interesting - there has been a large display of Peco track and accessories in the Kato HQ shop in Tokyo since earlier this year.
This one:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48386674052_0d2982e203_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gHLmqU)
Kato Hobby Centre Tokyo - Peco accessories (https://flic.kr/p/2gHLmqU) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Very good of you to pop round there and quickly snap that for us Squidy! :D
Funnily enough I used to live just down the road from there, though didn't realise it at the time. Photo is from April, but by pure freaky coincidence I actually went there today to get some spare parts unavailable elsewhere. I hadn't seen the announcement at that point, but apart from the continuing presence of the display I didn't notice anything related to the announcement.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/79/941-270719133908-799451593.jpeg)
I can't see why Kato would release this in anything other then 1:148. To date they haven't done a (uniquely) UK prototype model.
It would be commercial suicide to enter the British N Gauge market with a 1:160 scale version.
Perhaps the N Gauge Society should send him a polite letter, or even arrange to meet him in private at TINGS?
Regards,
John P
Totally agree, it would be lunacy. Even more so if it was done because Kato thought we were all wrong (I know we are, but still...), as opposed to some excuse about it having interest among a Japanese audience or something. It was show a staggering misunderstanding of their market, which would surprise me.
Umm, Japanese N scale is fundamentally 1:150, with the exception of Shinkansens, which are 1:160.
Kato also produce 1:160 items for the North American and European mainland markets.
The Class 800 is however based on a Japanese train which is not a Shinkansen, and which is available from Kato in 1:150.
The question is whether Kato will be adapting that tooling, meaning the Class 800 will be 1:150, or going to the expense of entirely new 1:148 tooling (which I suspect is unlikely due to the relatively small size of the British N gauge market).
Squiddy, I can only hope and pray that you are wrong!!
John P
1/148...1/150...1/160...
waiting for it!
Marco
The 800, and for that matter the 395, are based on the A Train concept - which as 'Squid says, is not a Shinkansen base. The closest you will find physically is the 'White Sonic' series 885 of JR Kyushu. Anyone remember David Lunt's conversion of one to a Javelin? Whilst from the same family, it has very little in common in appearance. It is also a reasonably old model - it is at least 15 years old - so I really don't believe Kato would use the existing tooling.
It is an interesting announcement from Kato, given the small market, and a great way to enter the UK domestic market (along with the Ffestiniog locos). I strongly suspect they will approach this as a brand new model, as opposed to a reworking of an older model.
Also, unlike the Eurostar, the 800 is an entirely UK domestic train, so the chances of it being built to 1/160 are low (and would certainly need to be fed back to Mr Kato should the matter come up for discussions at any of the forthcoming shows he attends - you would probably lose more UK modellers than gain European buys with this approach). Would it be 1/150? If, as I suspect, it would be an entirely new design, then I cannot see the benefit of building it to anything other than 1/148.
Quote from: marco neri on July 27, 2019, 05:54:09 PM
1/148...1/150...1/160...
waiting for it!
Marco
One hundred and eiggghhhhty! :D
Have to agree with @railsquid (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3832) I can't imagine them making it in anything other than 1/150, it is to all intents a British train albeit based on Japanese design and built by Hitachi, and it is not a Shinkansen. I am fairly sure there are a variety of high speed Japanese trains already made to 1/150 so to make this in any other scale wouldn't make sense, sorry @Ben A (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) perhaps you can get another word with Mr Kato at TINGS, I'm sure you could wangle it as a works trip, rising crime rates involving high value model trains ;)
148 (N) to 150 (Kato) or 152 (2mm) the difference is marginal.
Over the length of a 9-car train it adds up though - nearly an inch different.
I disagree that 1:150 is nailed on, tooling can't easily be 'modified', so I can't see them destroying the existing White Sonic tools to make a compromised version of a different prototype.
IMO if they want it to be a serious entry to the market (and I realise the market needs them more than they need the market) they need to make it 1:148.
9 coaches = 8 couplings, with a variability of 3mm a coupling = 24mm, as you say nearly an inch different.
Hi All,
I think it is great news that Kato have gone for the 800 Series, it appears that they are aiming this model primarily at the British Market (makes sense really) as well as a number of models for other gauges.
As to what actual scale it is I know that will remain a point of conjecture for some until we have further details including scale, variations and liveries. But if they do it in 1:150 (which would make some business sense considering Japan is their largest and primary market) it is good enough for me seen as under the licence Hornby had it appeared as if we would never see one.
Quote from: njee20 on July 27, 2019, 07:27:38 PM
IMO if they want it to be a serious entry to the market (and I realise the market needs them more than they need the market) they need to make it 1:148.
Don't forget that the market for a British train based on a Japanese model and made by a Japanese model maker will have as much, if not more, appeal in Japan than it will here. And what percentage of British modellers prefer steam or blue era etc to modern image.
Yes they are entering the British market but they know they would never get their money back if they didn't make it globally acceptable and wont have based their figures on guys like Hattons or Rails moving some boxes for them.
If it's not 1/150 I'll be amazed.
I disagree, as I've already said. There's already the Japanese model available, it doesn't have the cachet of the Eurostar or Glacier Express sets, which sell well among the Japanese tourist market. There won't be people in Japan desperately clamouring for an LNER and a GWR set, these are for the UK market. The limited number of Japanese enthusiasts who happen to want one are far more likely to accept a 1:148 model than the UK market will accept a 1:150 IMO.
Whether it's 1:148 or 1:150, I think the 800 is a great choice for Kato. Broad geographical spread, lots of liveries already, derivatives can work under and away from the wires and probably more orders from other TOCs to come.
Plus this is a train that could be around for the next 25+ years (or more if it can emulate the HST!). So plenty of time for Kato to make a decent return.
I just hope it's the start of a long list of new models from Kato... Fingers crossed that their use of a BR Western Region totem for the 'Kato British Railways' logo hints at future models that would be more useful for my layout :D
Yes it's hard not to be hopeful when they're almost designing a whole brand for it, one hopes it's more than dipping a tentative toe in.
I fear the UK market just isn't big enough, which is a real shame as I think they'd be a great brand to hoover up many of the MUs that are missing from current ranges.
:hellosign: YES the best news I`ve heard since the Pendelino
regards Derek.
If I want models in my collection representing the current Transpennine livery and LNER because of where I live I'll go for Kato 800s if they're being produced :claphappy:
Regardless, it IS exciting news. Being a closet 009 fan, I think the FR news is particularly so.
Back in the nineties, I was always rabbiting on about how great it would be if Kato brought out a Blue Pullman!!
A Kato Eurostar has hurtled along the Castle Eden branch, by the way.
A Festiniog Fairlie (don't know which version was to be produced) was once considered by Roco about a decade ago but dropped because of the steep price tag (about £200)
Genuine question guys. One I don't know the answer to.
Question: Why all the great debate about Kato's N gauge class 800 in regards to exactly what scale it will be produced at?
I just Googled the dimensions of the prototype and worked out that a coach in 1:148 will be 175.6mm long, making it a gnat's over 2mm longer than a model made to 1:150 scale. It'll also be 0.2mm wider. Not a great concern surely?
(I can appreciate that a 1:160 scale model would be perceptibly smaller than a 1:148).
Alec.
Hah, actually I must confess not knowing much about either prototype and have been blithely assuming the Class 800 is a variant of this with modifications for the UK:
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic (http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic)
but while it looks similar, it is far from identical, so I'd guess they'd need new tooling anyway, which would make 1:148 a possibiilty.
But that's as much as I know.
The Japanese equivalent of TINGS is coming up in August (well actually it's scale-agnostic, but N gauge dominates of course), I'll see if I can wrangle any information from the Kato stand.
If I'd known that, I'd have timed my trip last year for August!
No I wouldn't, it was dictated by bargain basement airfares :D
I must admit I'm finding this discussion interesting, sorta like an N gauge soap opera - can't wait to see the outcome! ;D
I must admit I never anticipated the N scale world would have so much drama and emotion ;)
The event I mean is more of a sales event, in general you tend not to get so many exhibition layouts in the way you do in the UK, alas, and the ones you do see get quite familiar after a while.
Someone I know who is in direct contact with Mr Kato by email. Mr Kato confirmed last night that the class 800 will be to 1:148 scale.
Regards
Julian Thornhill
Quote from: Invicta Alec on July 27, 2019, 11:30:35 PM
Question: Why all the great debate about Kato's N gauge class 800 in regards to exactly what scale it will be produced at?
I just Googled the dimensions of the prototype and worked out that a coach in 1:148 will be 175.6mm long, making it a gnat's over 2mm longer than a model made to 1:150 scale. It'll also be 0.2mm wider. Not a great concern surely?
(I can appreciate that a 1:160 scale model would be perceptibly smaller than a 1:148).
You're right it's subtle, and I suspect many people wouldn't notice (if they weren't told) it was 1:150, but it's nearly an inch different over a 9-car train, and I think you'd be surprised at how perceptible small differences can sometimes be. Aside from that, it's 'wrong', and some people will be put off by that fact alone. Still, sounds like it might be moot, which is good.
Great news, from my reading of this thread it would appear we will have to be patient, just like we were for the Pendos and look how that turned out. I see a lot of Kato stock at our local club and it always runs faultlessly. Just wish it was easy to DCC the Eurostars, so I could run them at the club.
Its not that bad using the Digitrax drop-in decoders. The worst part is getting the body to fit afterwards.
I'd assume that like the Lemke TGVs they'll make these with decoder (and maybe even speaker) sockets, again a case of knowing the market, where DCC proliferates.
Thanks for the laughs people, but the days of the British Empire finished long ago.
Telling Kato how to run their business - absolute gold :P
I don't see anyone doing that? Kato have a history of releasing models with no real DCC compatibility (even current ones like the RhB Allegra), which would seem to be a mistake for the UK market. Merely hypothesising that it would make sense for them to cater for the market they intend to enter, rather than a presumed "we'll do what we always do" on scale and specification, which arguably they'd do have a bit of a habit of.
It makes for interesting discussion, and I'm excited to watch this unfold, even though I'm not actually that interested in the model!
Hello all,
Having had a chance to reflect, this looks to be a huge opportunity for the British N Gauge market.
Kato is arguably the world's premier N gauge model railway manufacturer, and that they have identified the British market as one for development seems, to me, to be a big vote of confidence.
I know from discussions we have had that Mr Kato is very impressed with how British modellers have embraced the idea of collective action to get the models they want. I suspect he feels such commitment shows a market he wants to get into.
Whatever else may be involved, I think British N gauge enthusiasts - and retailers with links to Kato like Osborns and Gaugemaster - deserve credit for showing Kato that our market offers worthwhile opportunity.
Having said that, Kato are also about "iconic" trains and have a huge customer base of loyal Kato fans in Japan. Mr Kato said they sold far more Eurostars in their domestic market than they ever sold in Europe!
Remember too that the Class 800 is a Hitachi product; the japanese are rightly proud of their engineering prowess and many will wish to collect this model for that reason. It seems telling to me that the image selected for the launch shows the 800 in its Hitachi manufacturer livery.
The 009 products are very interesting - I suspect Kato's reasoning is that they can use their knowledge of N gauge mechanisms to take a share of the more dominant 4mm market in the UK.
What is also intriguing - as has been mentioned previously - is the branding. Unlike the Eurostar this isn't just a model in a standard Kato box. They are also launching their "British Railways" brand, and it seems to me this is a clear signal of intent to produce more, and I hope they will build their range as they have for the Glacier Express products.
I am looking forward to hearing what Mr Kato has to say at TINGS. These are very exciting days!
Cheers
Ben A.
Well stated. There is no doubt that the Kato model I acquired in Japan last year is the smoothest, sweetest-running loco I own, regardless of scale.
Certainly, the 009 announcement is exciting. I could be almost talked back there!
Just kidding ;)
The change in packaging for British prototypes is also encouraging.
Good luck with your negotiations with Mr Kato!
Agreed! The 009 announcement I think is almost more interesting - that's a very niche market to enter, which given Kato's well reported high-volume sales approach does suggest to me this is more than a little flirt with something they expect to sell well domestically.
The future of British N by Kato rests in your hands Ben, no pressure or anything ;)
Did he realise his was the wrong size then?!
:hellosign:
Well..
At the beginning was:
TGV (France)...following all the series Thalys, Pos ecc. ecc.
Eurostar (UK/France)
AVE 100 (Spain)
Eurostar new livery
now ICE DB ( Germany)
coming soon Class 800 (UK)...
..when FRECCIAROSSA or Italo?...I think next century :D
Cheers
"SI TAV" Marco
Quote from: Ben A on July 28, 2019, 09:42:23 AM
Having said that, Kato are also about "iconic" trains and have a huge customer base of loyal Kato fans in Japan. Mr Kato said they sold far more Eurostars in their domestic market than they ever sold in Europe!
Remember too that the Class 800 is a Hitachi product; the japanese are rightly proud of their engineering prowess and many will wish to collect this model for that reason. It seems telling to me that the image selected for the launch shows the 800 in its Hitachi manufacturer livery.
The domestic market is certainly a possibility, the transportation of these from factory to port is literally an event worthy of lining the streets for; 2017:
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_kiExQia78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_kiExQia78)
July 2019 (last shipment):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibFrLgBgHEQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibFrLgBgHEQ)
Quote from: railsquid on July 28, 2019, 11:49:03 AM
Quote from: Ben A on July 28, 2019, 09:42:23 AM
Having said that, Kato are also about "iconic" trains and have a huge customer base of loyal Kato fans in Japan. Mr Kato said they sold far more Eurostars in their domestic market than they ever sold in Europe!
Remember too that the Class 800 is a Hitachi product; the japanese are rightly proud of their engineering prowess and many will wish to collect this model for that reason. It seems telling to me that the image selected for the launch shows the 800 in its Hitachi manufacturer livery.
The domestic market is certainly a possibility, the transportation of these from factory to port is literally an event worthy of lining the streets for; 2017:
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_kiExQia78 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_kiExQia78)
July 2019 (last shipment):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibFrLgBgHEQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibFrLgBgHEQ)
Reminds me of the Garrett locos for South Africa being hauled through Glasgow from the North British works to the Broomielaw for loading.
And here's a mural in the Railway Museum in Omiya, just north of Tokyo, depicting significant events in Japanese railway history from ca. 1872 to the present day:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48394453081_572cfee5ca_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gJsdS6)
omiya-railway-museum-japanese-railway-history_mural_01 (https://flic.kr/p/2gJsdS6) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
On the left we have a depiction of the first steam locomotive to run in Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JGR_Class_150), kindly provided by the Vulcan Foundry of Newton-le-Willows, Lancs.:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48394591627_c24e8dd779_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gJsW3P)
omiya-railway-museum-japanese-railway-history_mural_02 (https://flic.kr/p/2gJsW3P) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
On the right we come to the present day...:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48394591682_f12ab871c0_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gJsW4L)
omiya-railway-museum-japanese-railway-history_mural_03 (https://flic.kr/p/2gJsW4L) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
I have absolutely no need for an 800.
I am thrilled they are being made.
I have a Eurostar, looking for another 4 car add on actually, and it's wonderful. It's not showing it's age against current models IMHO.
There is something very reassuring about a company, even as large as Kato, having an actual "Mr Kato".
Like him or loath him I happen to agree with J Clarkson when he said "The reason I like Honda products more than other Japanese cars is that there actually was a Mr Honda, and his passion is reflected in the design ethos" (or words to that effect).
Very much looking forward to seeing what Mr Kato has to say about the company plans :) (even if I can't think of anything "iconic" he would produce that would interest me, happy to be wrong).
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Snowwolflair on July 27, 2019, 10:07:43 AM
I really like the idea of the 800 and I hope the liveries include the GWR. (As the Virgin Azuma may no longer exist in 2021)
Virgin got the boot before any of the IEPs entered service. Unfortunately LNER, the government-owned successor, stuck with the crappy 'Azuma' branding.
Can't see any reason why it wouldn't still be the same in 2021 - current DfT policy is for franchise names / branding which can be carried between operators, of which both GWR and LNER are examples.
Quote from: Ben A on July 28, 2019, 09:42:23 AM
I am looking forward to hearing what Mr Kato has to say at TINGS. These are very exciting days!
Me too! It's actually encouraged me to get off my bottom and go to TINGS this year which at a 6 hour round trip took some doing!
The NGS Mail List claims that Mr Kato says it will Be 1/148
Yes, commented on the previous page.
Hope its bog standard DCC ready and not the normal Kato board replacement style.
Do wonder if it will just be an 800 or if they'll cater for the differences to allow 801's and 802's.
Agreed. The drop in boards are basically a solution to Kato's resistance to DCC. The more recent Lemke/Kato Models, like the TGVs just have 6-pin sockets, so there's hope...
There has been some discussion on the forum lately regarding Kato entering the UK market, (can not find the thread!) - this just in from 'Train Trax' -
Exclusively Kato N Gauge!
There have been rumours that Kato will be entering the British modelling scene with the Hitachi Class 800. Today I have heard that it is more than a rumour. I understand that there are still considerable hurdles to leap before this model is put into production. Not even certain which liveries are planned but I hope it will include the GWR. It would be great to welcome Kato who are renown for the precision and quality of their products to the British scene.
I saw that and thought it was a bit weird. It's been a rumour for months (indeed this thread started in February names the 800 in the OP), surely their showing a poster of it last week is what confirmed it!
Thanks for do the merger Squiddy. :thumbsup:
Hi all,
Well I guess more info will be available at TINGS, but I think it's fair to say like the Pendolino the 800 Series will become a modern icon.
But of note and announced today was the new operators of the East Midland Trains franchise Abello has placed an order for 33 5 car Bi-Modal units! So now 4 major franchises will operate the 800 Series with potentially more although the future West Coast Partnership is unlikely as 800 series don't tilt (although never say never).
https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/07/30/hitachi-wins-order-for-new-east-midlands-railway-fleet/ (https://www.businesstraveller.com/business-travel/2019/07/30/hitachi-wins-order-for-new-east-midlands-railway-fleet/)
More than that the Pendolinos are markedly newer than the HSTs and thus not likely to be being replaced as quickly. We're going to have nothing on UK rails but GM diesels and Hitachi D/EMUs before long!
I wish them every success with this and hope it encourages them to expand their involvement in the UK with rolling stock. Their twinstack intermodal and bethgon coalporter sets are the finest free running wagons I've ever had.
I'd definitely love a fleet of these on my layout, just hope the price is reasonable.
Cheers, Timmo
Very exciting times, I hope they make this a success and produce more, Kato have vast amounts of MUs for the Japanese market, the selfish in me hopes they look at the missing MUs for the UK market and produce some.
The drop in DCC boards are very easy to do on their locomotives and almost always run faultlessly after installation.
For prices I'd look at the Japanese market to gauge what their asking price is per set or coach, my experience is they aren't on the cheap side, but then not super expensive for a smooth, quiet, reliable model.
Lastly my hope is this will light a fire under Farish and Dapol, the waiting times are stupidly long for models (you know which ones I refer to), and the detail that Kato produce will set the bar high, heck Farish might even look at split gears again (never had a Kato with a split gear)
Quote from: Intercity on July 30, 2019, 05:06:23 PM
Lastly my hope is this will light a fire under Farish and Dapol, the waiting times are stupidly long for models (you know which ones I refer to), and the detail that Kato produce will set the bar high, heck Farish might even look at split gears again (never had a Kato with a split gear)
Surely the point here is the size of the market - the Japanese N-gauge market is much bigger than that in the UK.
Whilst the 80x series are very welcome from Kato, I would urge people to wait and see whether it brings a UK range from Kato. My best guess (from watching how Kato operate (in Japan and abroad) and from talking to Mr Kato) is that it might not be the start of a large new range.
Again best guess is that it will depend on how Kato feel about the size of the UK market - if the majority of sales are restricted to their Japanese customers then we might see a focus on models derived from Japanese manufacturers ie Hitachi. If that is the case then we might see other models derived from the A Train eg the AT200 (Class 385).
As others have mentioned the Japanese N gauge market is substantially larger than the UK and so expectations might not be met in terms of the size of the market. Kato often temper their overseas ventures to relatively limited ranges often with local partners, so it will be interesting to see what develops.
Exciting times ahead!
Cheers Mike
Mike,
How about a Revolution/Kato Electrostar?????
Graham.
We will Be able to recreate this!
DT link to follow
Daily telegraph
And this shows how Mallard got to the platform
(https://www.railadvent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2-Class-66s-haul-Mallard-at-York.jpg)
Personally, I think this is a better representation of old and new
(https://www.railadvent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/MDE-Azuma-meets-Flying-Scotsman.jpg)
Ironic that the 66 named "EWS Energy" has lost its EWS branding!
Quote from: njee20 on July 31, 2019, 10:42:40 AM
Ironic that the 66 named "EWS Energy" has lost its EWS branding!
Quick, somebody make a special edition ;D
(Only half joking to be honest, it's an interesting livery variation)
Skyline2uk
More today from Keith at Train Trax:
"Kato Announce British Class 800 IEP in N Scale
KATO are following on from the success of their N Scale Eurostar by advancing into solely British territory - by producing the Hitachi Class 800 IEP, which has been in use on UK high-speed lines since 2017.
There have been rumours that Kato will be entering the British modelling scene with the Hitachi Class 800. Today I have heard that it is more than a rumour. I understand that there are still considerable hurdles to leap before this model is put into production. Not even certain which liveries are planned but I hope it will include the GWR. It would be great to welcome Kato who are renown for the precision and quality of their products to the British scene.
Hitachi are onboard, so it will be a fully licenced and accurate model, up to the usual high standard that we expect from Kato. Licences are being negotiated with both GWR and LNER to produce the most up-to-date liveries running today. East Midland Railwayshave just announced that they are procuring a fleet of Class 800s for the Midland Mainline, so there is scope for more liveries.
This model will be in British N Scale (1:148), and is due for release in 2021.
I do not currently have any information on liveries, part numbers, prices, or configurations (although a powered set/add on set configuration is likely, with DCC readiness). Keep an eye out for future Newsletters from Train Trax for more details.
More details are expected to be announced at The International N Gauge Show in September."
And the photo from Keith's email this morning:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/80/5634-310719114452.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=80058)
That be the same exact photo that's been doing the rounds for nearly a week now... Good there's 'confirmation' that they're doing both LNER and GWR, and that it'll have DCC compatibility.
It's the same exact copy Gaugemaster have shared, so it's obviously from an official source.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on July 31, 2019, 10:45:45 AM
Quote from: njee20 on July 31, 2019, 10:42:40 AM
Ironic that the 66 named "EWS Energy" has lost its EWS branding!
Quick, somebody make a special edition ;D
(Only half joking to be honest, it's an interesting livery variation)
Skyline2uk
There are loads that have lost the EWS lettering, but most have nose end and cabside DB vinyls. Here's my effort:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48421709632_39b3d69115_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gLRVhC)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2gLRVhC) by njee20 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/46244709@N04/), on Flickr
Dapol are doing one, but only in a bookset with three pairs of IKA Megafret wagons, which DB don't even use!
Really looking forward to these from KATO, let's hope they go with a PCB that accepts a Next18(s) decoder in this day and age, there's not really an excuse to do anything else.
Quote from: njee20 on July 31, 2019, 12:12:06 PM
Good there's 'confirmation' that they're doing both LNER and GWR, and that it'll have DCC compatibility.
Hardly 'confirmation' of liveries or much else other than scale, as much seems yet to be finalised and ratified, as far as my reading of 'hurdles' and 'negotiation' goes. Like all things model rail, I shall wait and see what the order books have to offer. But 2021 isn't that far off so I'll set the budget for a possible future purchase.
Hence the inverted commas around confirmation. It goes one step further than the blind speculation we've had to date. Will be interesting to see what is said at TINGS.
A nice bit of video from yesterday's celebrations at York.
Thanks kirky. Ought to be in my railtours specials page thread. Super video. Will be enjoyed by all
My guess is that Kato will first bring out the class 800s and 801s in GWR and LNER liveries, in both 5- and 9-car formations.
The 802s will follow on from them.
Quote from: gc4946 on July 31, 2019, 05:06:26 PM
My guess is that Kato will first bring out the class 800s and 801s in GWR and LNER liveries, in both 5- and 9-car formations.
The 802s will follow on from them.
I'd agree, but as I would like the TPE liveried 802's for my layout then an 800 or 801 would be a rule 1 purchase for me.
Regards,
John P
Are there many external differences between the class 800 and 802?
I'm not sure where/how the larger fuel tanks are located or if the higher power engine is noticably bigger at 1:148 scale.
Steven B.
IIRC 802's have bigger resistor banks for their brakes than the 800's.
Hi All,
Been having a nosy so this is just some deductions more than anything concrete which we await from Kato themselves having spoke to some friends who work for Hitachi (One of them assembles them).
The 800 and 802 which are the Bi-Modal running variants share the same traction and control systems underfloor with the same layout of these systems, on these the layout for engines is:
5 Car - 3 engines in the 2/4/5 cars
9 Car - 5 engines in the 2/3/5/7/8 cars
However the 801 units only have 1 engine which is for emergency power for auxiliary systems and limited recovery traction movements, in operational service these purely run on overheads.
The difference between the 800 and 802 units is the formations:
5 car 800 - DPTS-MS-MS-MC-DPTF
5 car 802 - DPTS-MS-MS-MS-DPTF
@Kaput (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6500) is spot on about the size difference of the Brake Resistors, but its the 800 and 802 both have the same larger resistors and the 801 has smaller ones as they will for the vast majority of the time be delivering the power generated in regenerative braking back into the network.
With this in mind if they have the licences then I wouldn't be surprised if they offer the 800 and 802 leaving the 801 units as they don't share the same external (underfloor) configurations. Plus with the 800 and 802 you get all the liveries (including East Midland Trains - as they have already stated they need Bi-modal units)
But as I say this is just some deductions from what people I know in the 1:1 scale industry have told me!
The bi-modal class 800 and 802s appear to be the most obvious choice for Kato - they've no need for OHLE unlike the Class 801s.
I wonder how conservative they'll be. I'm guessing we'll see five car train packs but in how many liveries? Would they do GWR, LNER and Transpennine in the first batch or just stick to a single livery.
Steven B.
800 and 802 broadly similar appearance etc but 802 mainly gwr has higher engine power. Worth googling
Yes, certainly based on Gareth's excellent post it appears that the 800 and the 802 are the obvious choices. I imagine a 5-car set with a 4-car add-on pack is likely. GWR and LNER seem like absolute slam dunks, TPE maybe a follow on.
There on a winner kato
Quote from: crewearpley40 on August 02, 2019, 09:11:42 AM
800 and 802 broadly similar appearance etc but 802 mainly gwr has higher engine power. Worth googling
You are indeed right, just to confuse people some what more, the engines are identical with the same power capacity the deviations been the fuel flow and gearing ratios between the two. The 800 units have a lower maximum fuel flow and the gearing is set for lower torques when compared to the 802 configurations. The reason for this this (again from people that work for Hitachi) is from an engineering perspective very logical.
The 800s are designed to run on the flatter higher speed sections where as the 802s are designed to run on the routes with more gradients such as Devon (beyond Exeter) and the Transpennine routes, as such the power output and torque settings on the 802s need to be higher to be able to contend with the gradients.
Add into that as the 800 units are for flatter routes and don't need as much power or torque reducing the stresses on the engines will reduce maintenance and service life (well that's the idea anyway).
But back to the models, @njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147) thoughts on Kato offering a 5 car with 4 car add on packs to make a 9 car would seem like the logical idea and something Kato are prepared to do if the eurostar is anything to go by, to make a 9 car from a 5 car you would need extra coaches:
TS-TS-MC-MF
So effectively you could extend either an 800 or 802 on a single add on pack!
Again this is some crystal ball gazing but does seem like the logical steps, but time will tell. Personally I would love to see the Transpennine and follow on EMT versions fro where I am modelling so hopefully they will be part of the plans, if not I am sure I can stretch LNER services to incorporate where my layout is been set.
could be interesting if the project comes to fruition and we all see the products in the shops
Hi Acko
I think you've got some typo's in your last post.
The 802's ARE meant for steeper routes, the 800's aren't.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on August 02, 2019, 02:01:50 PM
Hi Acko
I think you've got some typo's in your last post.
The 802's ARE meant for steeper routes, the 800's aren't.
Regards,
John P
Shhhh I haven't altered the text at all :doh:
...and 802's are built in Italy :)
Cheers
Marco
To fan the muddy waters of speculation, one of the Japanese business journals is reporting that Kato is building a large new factory (in addition to its existing two) north of Tokyo, with construction due to start in February 2020.
Article in Japanese: https://toyokeizai.net/articles/-/297814
The Class 800 is specifically mentioned (along with the ICE 4) as part of what looks like increasing participation in overseas markets.
Interesting.
But I don't want to think about what is in the yellow tube, though :worried:
???
I'll be up for one of these but I wonder if it will come with a broken coupler?
Stuck at Plymouth earlier this year, HST had broken down so all the passengers were put on a 5 car Hitachi unit with those passengers already on board, a second 5 car unit was brought in at the front with more passengers already one board to make a 10 car. Then the crew couldn't get the two to couple, clamshell doors wouldn't open on the front unit, engineer arrives opens the doors but after 30 minutes still wouldn't couple (great to watch), so now everyone forced to cram into the front 5. Would not want the train mangers job taking everyone's complaints.
Best announcement though 'for those passengers going to Newton Abbott to board the replacement train (HST) don't worry it will not leave without you as the crew are aboard this train'
Quote from: railsquid on August 18, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
???
The article I saw when I clicked on the link had a picture of stuff oozing out of a tube at the bottom of the page ;)
Quote from: Bealman on August 18, 2019, 07:25:09 AM
Quote from: railsquid on August 18, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
???
The article I saw when I clicked on the link had a picture of stuff oozing out of a tube at the bottom of the page ;)
I think the ads are tailored to match your browsing history - I got the dog flea collar. Not sure about yellow oozing stuff though.....
Seat cars here.
Be exciting if Kato do move more into new markets, purely because of their clout. Sounds like a reasonable statement of intent.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on August 18, 2019, 07:32:07 AM
Quote from: Bealman on August 18, 2019, 07:25:09 AM
Quote from: railsquid on August 18, 2019, 06:25:56 AM
???
The article I saw when I clicked on the link had a picture of stuff oozing out of a tube at the bottom of the page ;)
I think the ads are tailored to match your browsing history - I got the dog flea collar. Not sure about yellow oozing stuff though.....
I see. I thought it might be some weird automatic translation but couldn't for the life of me work out what.
Anyway all I see are ads for trains from my local auction site, for some unknown reason. :angel:
Hello all,
Railsquid - thanks for posting the link. Very interesting and something most of us would never have found I suspect!
I followed some of the links to other articles, and one discusses Kato's move into European models, in particular the Swiss Raetische Bahn Glacier Express.
It goes into the thinking behind these products which, in effect, created a largely new market. The attraction was the tight curves of the prototype and its metre-gauge, which Kato were familiar with as it's very close to the Japanese 3'6 gauge represented in N by 1:150 scale models.
I know some of the sets are sold on the Glacier Express trains themselves.
Cheers
Ben A.
Release announcement from Kato: https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/poster/pdf/202011261551535fbf5089ce715/2021-4b.pdf
800 series due out in May in GWR and LNER liveries. Model is confirmed at 1:148. Minimum radius 282mm. "DCC friendly".
24700-26000 Yen, which at today's exchange rates is around £180 - not bad for a five car train.
10-1671 - Class 800/0 GWR
10-1674 Class 800/2 LNER
My Japanese is not existent, but it looks like minimum radius will be 282mm (about 11 inches so R2). Scale is 1:148 (i.e. British N).
Motor is in the second of the five cars, so three decoders needed unless there's through wiring for the lights.
Steven B
That is excellent news. Thank you very much.
Best wishes.
John
Considering they've been available for 6 months, I haven't seen them being advertised much. :D
Quote from: RailGooner on November 27, 2020, 09:29:39 AM
Considering they've been available for 6 months, I haven't seen them being advertised much. :D
2020... the year which never ends...
Hopefully this link will translate Kato page into English :-
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&tab=TT&sl=ja&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.katomodels.com%2Fproduct%2Fn%2Fclass800 (https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&tab=TT&sl=ja&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.katomodels.com%2Fproduct%2Fn%2Fclass800)
Interesting (not very,) that the LNER livery costs slightly more than the GWR one. :hmmm:
No obvious through wiring in the shots on the Kato twitter feed. so 3 decoders it is, I guess.
https://twitter.com/kato_team/status/1332232325837406209/photo/3
That's great news, but looks like 2021 is going to be another expensive year :D
Quote from: railsquid on November 27, 2020, 08:10:40 AM
Release announcement from Kato: https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/poster/pdf/202011261551535fbf5089ce715/2021-4b.pdf
800 series due out in May in GWR and LNER liveries. Model is confirmed at 1:148. Minimum radius 282mm. "DCC friendly".
Aw, heck. Looks like another 'buy with my heart' purchase coming up of something that's totally out of place on my layout, but I've admired the GWR liveried ones since they were delivered and seen on the 'Paddington' TV series
Such an expensive time all round, Revolution, Dapol, and now Kato...
I drive these on the GWR main line and they've grown on me. Still love my HSTs tho.
Cheers, Timmo
I'm interested in the LNER version :claphappy: to run alongside my Transpennine 68 + (preordered) MK5A set :claphappy:
Some info from Hattons: https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949)
Note this says "This new model is expected to be released in early 2021", but Kato lists it under their May releases, and they are good at sticking to announced release dates (slippages are usually measured in weeks).
Rails price £169.50
https://railsofsheffield.com/products/42168/kato-10-1671-n-gauge-class-800-0-gwr-iet-800-021-5-car-emu (https://railsofsheffield.com/products/42168/kato-10-1671-n-gauge-class-800-0-gwr-iet-800-021-5-car-emu)
Rails at £169.50. Hattons at £178... The prices for these models will be a race to the bottom between retailer, as the RRP is £209.95. Anyone else selling it will not stand a chance, until Rails and Hattons sell out.
Promises to be a great model, I can't wait to get my hands on it. The GWR livery has so much more class than the rest of the UK network. :beers:
You wicked, wicked man.
Ordered :D
Neither fit in my area/period of interest, but am terribly tempted by the LNER version on a Rule 1 basis. If this works its way into the local trade at the usual 30% discount on RRP, at the current exchange rate it would set me back about 135 GBP :D
It will be my first ever Kato purchase (apart from some track) so it will be interesting to see how it stacks up against my UK locos from the usual suspects.
At £169.50 it compares very favourably against a Dapol HST 4 car bookset at around £176 and, say, a Farish 4 car class 319 at £254.95!!
As a fan of Kato Unitrack, I am looking forward to getting one of these Kato trains. I've read many times people praising their quality.
They are to be sold as "DCC ready". I've heard upgrading them is not the same as just taking out a blanking plate and popping a decoder in like we do with Farish or Dapols but that a complete circuit board has to be changed. Can anyone confirm that please?
Alec.
Quote from: Invicta Alec on November 27, 2020, 02:18:00 PM
As a fan of Kato Unitrack, I am looking forward to getting one of these Kato trains. I've read many times people praising their quality.
They are to be sold as "DCC ready". I've heard upgrading them is not the same as just taking out a blanking plate and popping a decoder in like we do with Farish or Dapols but that a complete circuit board has to be changed. Can anyone confirm that please?
Alec.
The most recently released TGVs have had 6pin DCC interfaces, so no problem to convert if they follow that pattern for the Class 800 series. Will they be Next18, I wonder?
Quote from: Invicta Alec on November 27, 2020, 02:18:00 PM
As a fan of Kato Unitrack, I am looking forward to getting one of these Kato trains. I've read many times people praising their quality.
They are to be sold as "DCC ready". I've heard upgrading them is not the same as just taking out a blanking plate and popping a decoder in like we do with Farish or Dapols but that a complete circuit board has to be changed. Can anyone confirm that please?
"DCC friendly" is the term Kato uses. I don't do DCC but if it's constructed on the same lines as the "DCC friendly" Japanese stock I have, you'll need an EM13 decoder (https://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/g29-351/) for the power car and FL12 decoders (https://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/g29-352/) for the end cars.
The end cars have little panels underneath which can be removed to put the decoder in, and it looks like installation on the power is just a case of popping the underframe cover off (which is easy to do).
I think it's the North American locomotives where you need to change out the entire circuit board.
However if the main target market is the UK, I'd assume they'll go for a more "normal" DCC solution like they've done with other European models.
Quote from: Sven on November 27, 2020, 01:31:52 PM
Rails at £169.50. Hattons at £178... The prices for these models will be a race to the bottom between retailer, as the RRP is £209.95. Anyone else selling it will not stand a chance, until Rails and Hattons sell out.
Promises to be a great model, I can't wait to get my hands on it. The GWR livery has so much more class than the rest of the UK network. :beers:
I got the email from Hattons earlier and ordered one, in GWR green of course. I went back to my inbox and saw the email from Rails. So, back to Hattons website, cancelled that one and ordered from Rails. I'm surprised theres so much difference in price between the 2 to be honest.
Quote from: railsquid on November 27, 2020, 02:42:54 PM
Quote from: Invicta Alec on November 27, 2020, 02:18:00 PM
As a fan of Kato Unitrack, I am looking forward to getting one of these Kato trains. I've read many times people praising their quality.
They are to be sold as "DCC ready". I've heard upgrading them is not the same as just taking out a blanking plate and popping a decoder in like we do with Farish or Dapols but that a complete circuit board has to be changed. Can anyone confirm that please?
"DCC friendly" is the term Kato uses. I don't do DCC but if it's constructed on the same lines as the "DCC friendly" Japanese stock I have, you'll need an EM13 decoder (https://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/g29-351/) for the power car and FL12 decoders (https://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/g29-352/) for the end cars.
The end cars have little panels underneath which can be removed to put the decoder in, and it looks like installation on the power is just a case of popping the underframe cover off (which is easy to do).
Thank you @railsquid (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3832) for this information. If it follows the pattern you describe fitting the decoders looks easy. Not having to take the whole body off (like most of the Farish/Dapol range require) will certainly help! Using the pricing on the links you gave would mean a total of roughly £40 for the 3 decoders, although tax and import duty will probably make it more like £60 here in the UK (I'm guessing).
Alec.
Now £178 at Rails too ... "-15%".
Competition, eh? ;)
Quote from: Buffin on November 27, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
Now £178 at Rails too ... "-15%".
Competition, eh? ;)
Got my two at £169.50 and I have a screen shot of the order confirming the price :)
Not that that is any way binding of course.
Quote from: Invicta Alec on November 27, 2020, 04:13:33 PM
Quote from: railsquid on November 27, 2020, 02:42:54 PM
Quote from: Invicta Alec on November 27, 2020, 02:18:00 PM
As a fan of Kato Unitrack, I am looking forward to getting one of these Kato trains. I've read many times people praising their quality.
They are to be sold as "DCC ready". I've heard upgrading them is not the same as just taking out a blanking plate and popping a decoder in like we do with Farish or Dapols but that a complete circuit board has to be changed. Can anyone confirm that please?
"DCC friendly" is the term Kato uses. I don't do DCC but if it's constructed on the same lines as the "DCC friendly" Japanese stock I have, you'll need an EM13 decoder (https://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/g29-351/) for the power car and FL12 decoders (https://www.e-katomodels2.com/shop/g/g29-352/) for the end cars.
The end cars have little panels underneath which can be removed to put the decoder in, and it looks like installation on the power is just a case of popping the underframe cover off (which is easy to do).
Thank you @railsquid (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3832) for this information. If it follows the pattern you describe fitting the decoders looks easy. Not having to take the whole body off (like most of the Farish/Dapol range require) will certainly help! Using the pricing on the links you gave would mean a total of roughly £40 for the 3 decoders, although tax and import duty will probably make it more like £60 here in the UK (I'm guessing).
It'll be interesting to see, certainly. Given they have form for putting proper NEM sockets in European models I'd hope for that, rather than any sort of proprietary solution.
I've got my Azuma pre-ordered. I can feel some vinyl projects coming on...
Anyone noticed that these appear to be being offered as a complete 'train set' with track and controller?
Martyn
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 01:13:51 PM
Rails price £169.50
https://railsofsheffield.com/products/42168/kato-10-1671-n-gauge-class-800-0-gwr-iet-800-021-5-car-emu (https://railsofsheffield.com/products/42168/kato-10-1671-n-gauge-class-800-0-gwr-iet-800-021-5-car-emu)
for Hattons enthusiasts
https://www.hattons.co.uk/607660/kato_k10_1671_class_800_0_5_car_bimu_iet_800021_in_gwr_green/stockdetail.aspx?utm_campaign=mar-300-katoclass800update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJucm9iaW5zb25AY2l4LmNvLnVrIiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiSkdRZVhoIn0%3D (https://www.hattons.co.uk/607660/kato_k10_1671_class_800_0_5_car_bimu_iet_800021_in_gwr_green/stockdetail.aspx?utm_campaign=mar-300-katoclass800update&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJucm9iaW5zb25AY2l4LmNvLnVrIiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiSkdRZVhoIn0%3D)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: Buffin on November 27, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
Now £178 at Rails too ... "-15%".
Competition, eh? ;)
Got my two at £169.50 and I have a screen shot of the order confirming the price :)
From Rails site:
Quote
Previously advertised incorrectly at £169.50. Correct price is £178.00 which still represents a great discount off the RRP of £209.95. Sorry for the error
Does this mean they will be charging us £178?
Quote from: Trainfish on November 27, 2020, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: Buffin on November 27, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
Now £178 at Rails too ... "-15%".
Competition, eh? ;)
Got my two at £169.50 and I have a screen shot of the order confirming the price :)
From Rails site:
Quote
Previously advertised incorrectly at £169.50. Correct price is £178.00 which still represents a great discount off the RRP of £209.95. Sorry for the error
Does this mean they will be charging us £178?
British trading standards - an offer for sale is an offer for sale - even if the price is subsequently discovered to be wrong is guaranteed especially if they have processed the sale. They must honour sales made before they spotted their mistake.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 05:16:54 PM
Quote from: Trainfish on November 27, 2020, 05:06:01 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: Buffin on November 27, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
Now £178 at Rails too ... "-15%".
Competition, eh? ;)
Got my two at £169.50 and I have a screen shot of the order confirming the price :)
From Rails site:
Quote
Previously advertised incorrectly at £169.50. Correct price is £178.00 which still represents a great discount off the RRP of £209.95. Sorry for the error
Does this mean they will be charging us £178?
British trading standards - an offer for sale is an offer for sale - even if the price is subsequently discovered to be wrong is guaranteed especially if they have processed the sale. They must honour sales made before they spotted their mistake.
Hi
Incorrect, they don't have to sell you anything. All prices are an invitation to treat and are not binding until money is handed over and accepted.
Cheers
Paul
Yes but they have processed a cash reservation with PayPal which is deemed to be a transaction. This was challenged in a court case last year and is now case law.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 05:23:29 PM
Yes but they have processed a cash reservation with PayPal which is deemed to be a transaction. This was challenged in a court case last year and is now case law.
Hi
Until that charge clears your credit card it hasn't actually been paid for. It depends on how it gets processed. I paid via PayPal for some Lego direct from Lego. It wasn't in stock at the time and by the time it did come into stock about a week later the PayPal authorisation had expired. I had to phone them and pay directly.
Time will tell and you will have got a bargain if it does go through at that price.
Cheers
Paul
Where's my TPE one >:( >:(
I know it's an 802, not an 800.
John P
Quote from: PaulCheffus on November 27, 2020, 05:26:35 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 05:23:29 PM
Yes but they have processed a cash reservation with PayPal which is deemed to be a transaction. This was challenged in a court case last year and is now case law.
Hi
Until that charge clears your credit card it hasn't actually been paid for. It depends on how it gets processed. I paid via PayPal for some Lego direct from Lego. It wasn't in stock at the time and by the time it did come into stock about a week later the PayPal authorisation had expired. I had to phone them and pay directly.
Time will tell and you will have got a bargain if it does go through at that price.
Cheers
Paul
That's why I have a screen print showing the order has been processed and accepted at that price. Something I always do for high value items. :)
Will there be a 9-car version or the ability to buy additional coaches?
As Paul says, it is not correct that a retailer has to honour a price given in error before a transaction is complete. If no money has changed hands then no invoice/tax point has been created so it is down to the retailer to decide if they will/can honour it (they may not be allowed to if Kato or their distributor have a similar discount policy to Bachmann or Hornby ie max discount for XX days).
Mr Kato said to us at TINGS last year that they hoped to offer it DCC ready and that they were looking at the options for additional coaches and other versions of 80x. I don't know what the conclusions were so it might be that they've decided to just stick with these two versions for launch with the possibility of others to follow.
Cheers Mike
Keith's latest email quotes £168. Let's see if that sticks :)
Even £178 is a good price for a 5 car train pack.
QuoteIf a price is shown above it is my intended price in normal market conditions. I may need to alter this, due to exchange rates, at any time before this item is invoiced to you. However my prices will always be 20% below importers recommended price for sets, a bit less for lower priced items.
Quote from: red_death on November 27, 2020, 06:16:18 PM
As Paul says, it is not correct that a retailer has to honour a price given in error before a transaction is complete. If no money has changed hands then no invoice/tax point has been created so it is down to the retailer to decide if they will/can honour it (they may not be allowed to if Kato or their distributor have a similar discount policy to Bachmann or Hornby ie max discount for XX days).
Mr Kato said to us at TINGS last year that they hoped to offer it DCC ready and that they were looking at the options for additional coaches and other versions of 80x. I don't know what the conclusions were so it might be that they've decided to just stick with these two versions for launch with the possibility of others to follow.
Cheers Mike
Mike you should brush up on your contract law (offer made and offer accepted) and resent case law in support of this very matter where a pre-payment validation has been carried out. The beginning of the financial transaction, requiring a verification from PayPal, is the point when the contractual relationship is sealed, even if no cash changes hands.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 06:37:00 PM
The beginning of the financial transaction, requiring a verification from PayPal, is the point when the contractual relationship is sealed, even if no cash changes hands.
Hi all,
I don't want to go down a rabbit hole on this but the reality is if they've made a mistake then they can either honour the original price or just cancel the transaction and refund whatever you've paid, in the knowledge that they are better off selling to you (or someone else) at the correct price than taking a hit.
I hope whoever is reponsible for what is obviously an error doesn't get into any trouble - these models are incredibly cheap. In fact, if you take into account VAT, retailer margin and shipping costs my only conclusion is that instead of the usual 1000-1500 units Revolution manages to shift, Kato must be expecting to shift 10,000+ units.
Having said that, we know there is a large market in Japan for high speed "Shinkansen" type trains, and I gather there is a cohort of enthusiasts there who are, in particular, Hitachi fans and are likely to order these sets.
I have a suspicion that the reality is - ironically - that far more Class 800s will be sold in Japan than are ever sold here! Mr Kato told me they sold far more Eurostars in Japan than they ever sold in the UK.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 06:37:00 PM
Mike you should brush up on your contract law (offer made and offer accepted) and resent case law in support of this very matter where a pre-payment validation has been carried out. The beginning of the financial transaction, requiring a verification from PayPal, is the point when the contractual relationship is sealed, even if no cash changes hands.
What is the source please? Happy to be proven wrong.
My understanding is that nothing is binding until money changes hands (that has always been one of the cornerstones of contract law). The fact that a card check is done by Paypal doesn't change that (and if anything it may well muddy the waters as Paypal are an intermediary). Even pre-authorisation is just that ie allowing a merchant to use your card details for a an agreed amount (I'd expect a merchant to have to get a new agreement for a different (higher) price) - it isn't an actual transaction.
I'd still argue that it is a moot point anyway because the retailer can refuse to proceed with the transaction (particularly if it contravenes their supply agreement - would you really jeopardise your supply arrangement by breaking the discounting rules of £8.50?). If what you say is true then no retailer could afford to have any sort of pre-ordering system because for reasons unconnected to price (eg if they are short supplied) they would be in breach of contract and how could they ever cancel an order?
Quote from: Ben A on November 27, 2020, 06:58:35 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2020, 06:37:00 PM
The beginning of the financial transaction, requiring a verification from PayPal, is the point when the contractual relationship is sealed, even if no cash changes hands.
Hi all,
I don't want to go down a rabbit hole on this but the reality is if they've made a mistake then they can either honour the original price or just cancel the transaction and refund whatever you've paid, in the knowledge that they are better off selling to you (or someone else) at the correct price than taking a hit.
I hope whoever is reponsible for what is obviously an error doesn't get into any trouble - these models are incredibly cheap. In fact, if you take into account VAT, retailer margin and shipping costs my only conclusion is that instead of the usual 1000-1500 units Revolution manages to shift, Kato must be expecting to shift 10,000+ units.
Having said that, we know there is a large market in Japan for high speed "Shinkansen" type trains, and I gather there is a cohort of enthusiasts there who are, in particular, Hitachi fans and are likely to order these sets.
I have a suspicion that the reality is - ironically - that far more Class 800s will be sold in Japan than are ever sold here! Mr Kato told me they sold far more Eurostars in Japan than they ever sold in the UK.
cheers
Ben A.
So putting aside where you are both legally wrong, what you are also suggesting is that Rails of Sheffield will dishonour their "Price Promise" shown on the products webpage and which I have a screen capture of.
I'm just glad I screenshot all my purchases from other manufacturers.
Flippin' 'eck - is there a lawyer in the house?
A big discussion about only 9 Pounds. Take a step back and see how silly this is.
Quote from: dannyboy on November 27, 2020, 07:21:03 PM
Flippin' 'eck - is there a lawyer in the house?
Only a plethora of barrack room lawyers. It really is a shame, and I don't blame PaulCheffus as he had the grace to say "time will tell"
Both Rails and Hattons have the following terms and conditions:
QuotePricing policy
The price you pay will be the current price advertised on www.hattons.co.uk (http://www.hattons.co.uk) excluding any items that have been priced in error. In the event these circumstances occur you will be notified before any price adjustments are made and given the option to accept or reject the revised order.
or
Quotehe price advertised on Rails of Sheffield website will be the price charged at the time of the order being processed. This excludes errors in pricing (E & OE) in the event of an error with a price you will be contacted prior to the order being processed and given the option to accept the correct price or cancel the order.
A company is under no obligation to do any business with anyone, the website may take an order and the money, and they are within thier right to cancel and re-fund the money. (as long as they can show a contract has not been formed, as this can happen on delivery)
If the item had shipped and you had it in your hand then the circumstances would be very different and they would struggle to reclaim the money, though of course they could refuse to do any further business with you.
The following is from the citizens advice
QuoteShopping online
Your legal rights depend on something fairly tricky in the law: whether or not you have a 'contract'.
Depending on the company's terms and conditions, you'll have legal rights (and a contract) either:
once you've paid for the item
once they've sent it to you
You'll need to find the company's terms and conditions to find out where you stand. Contact the Citizens Advice consumer helpline if you need help. It may be too tricky to work out yourself.
If you have a contract, the company can't usually cancel your order, even if they realise they've sold you something at the wrong price. They'll only be able to cancel it if it was a genuine and honest mistake on their part that you should've noticed.
If you don't have a contract and someone realises they've told you the wrong price, they can cancel your order.
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/if-something-is-advertised-at-the-wrong-price/ (https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/somethings-gone-wrong-with-a-purchase/if-something-is-advertised-at-the-wrong-price/)
Ether way, this is a superb offering at a very compelling price, and i look forward to getting them next year!
I don't wish to perpetuate this any further, but I'd be very interested to know the specific case that is being referred to here, rather than just insults, it's a big claim that could do with reinforcement beyond "you're legally wrong".
However, As has been said repeatedly it also makes no difference whatsoever, they just cancel the order and refund. If someone tried to suggest I was legally obliged to honour the price I'd just cancel and refuse to sell to them. Entirely legally. Simple!
For obvious reasons I'm also interested in the case law David is referring to. No barrack room lawyer here, I'm used to interpret legislation and law cases as well for work.
I will look it out. It was in a resent trading standards notification, however the point about "get out clauses" in retailers terms of business, is well made and may have legal seniority, I will check and I suspect they may be there because of the ruling.
Quote from: gc4946 on November 27, 2020, 12:47:58 PM
I'm interested in the LNER version :claphappy: to run alongside my Transpennine 68 + (preordered) MK5A set :claphappy:
I took the plunge and preordered the LNER version from Rails.
Kato is right offering 5-car sets initially, they'll be roughly the same length as a Dapol 2+5 HST, which I have room for on my layout.
I wish I'd never asked now about honouring the price :o
However, I seem to remember this happened with either the class 33s or 50s from Dapol sold by at least 1 of these retailers and yes, the new price was due. My understanding also, and no I'm not a lawyer, is that the price is what is agreed between the buyer and seller when payment is taken or words to that effect. I'm not too worried about the cost difference as it is a good price for a 5 car set whichever is charged. I'm surprised Rails aren't doing free postage though, I thought they were doing that before for all locos over £100 weren't they? I hope I haven't stirred up another hornets' nest there :doh:
Shame about the interminable squabble above.
Anyways, I've ordered LNER Azuma train from Rails of Sheffield.
I see the train is also available as a Gaugemaster Train Pack with KATO Unitrack and controller.
Regards
Quote from: GlenEglise on November 27, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
Shame about the interminable squabble above.
Seems to have been a couple just lately. I blame Covid. ;)
Quote from: GlenEglise on November 27, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
Anyways, I've ordered LNER Azuma train from Rails of Sheffield.
I ordered the other one.
Quote from: GlenEglise on November 27, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
I see the train is also available as a Gaugemaster Train Pack with KATO Unitrack and controller.
Which is what I ordered as when
Averingcliffe is finished, I will need some more track - and a spare controller will come in handy. :)
Anybody know how long a set is? I need to know whether my platforms on Weston Parkway will accommodate a pair of them running in multiple... >:D
They scale to ~88cm.
Quote from: njee20 on November 27, 2020, 10:15:46 PM
They scale to ~88cm.
Thank you, that leaves me 20cm to spare then with a pair of them :laugh3:
Quote from: Gordon on November 28, 2020, 12:39:04 AM
If I wanted one (which I don't as I don't model British N) I would buy from Japan. Pre-orders opened yesterday 27 November and the LNER version (GWR slightly cheaper) is £140 at todays JPY-GBP exchange rate. Royal Mail will charge you for handling the arrival in the UK but it usually comes out slightly cheaper overall than a UK price.
I think you need to check your maths. They're ¥19125 at Plaza Japan, plus shipping at ~¥5000 which basically comes to £180. If you can get free shipping that's borderline worthwhile - add 20% VAT plus £14 handling fee is £182; you'd be mad to buy from Japan IMO.
Returns etc. would also be less hassle. Admittedly the chances of issues with something from Kato are minimal, but not entirely absent.
Agreed, plus a higher risk of shipping damage or loss. I've used Plaza Japan before, but unless you planned to buy 10, thereby offsetting the postage and handling fees, it seems pointless.
I'm tempted to buy one merely to help sales and encourage Kato to expand into the UK market. Be awesome for them to start chipping through our EMUs!
Quote from: njee20 on November 28, 2020, 04:42:56 AM
I'm tempted to buy one merely to help sales and encourage Kato to expand into the UK market. Be awesome for them to start chipping through our EMUs!
That is part of my motivation for getting one :thumbsup:
LNER version ordered for me, lets hope if they sell well, we get some more ECML sets.....Class 91 + MkIVs anybody?
To all the legal beagles this is my first post so be gentle.
When I studied some law in the 60s one of the basic principles studied was about "Invitation to treat" . Basically any pricing in windows. on shop shelves, advertising etc was an invitastion to treat, you offered to buy at that price and the seller then chose whether to accept and supply at that price or refuse, make a counter offer etc. All of this was backed up by copious case law etc.
Does this not cover any mispricing in adverts?
Yes it does cover it as from what I know and consulting the MSE website you have only agreed the cost/contract once the purchase has been carried out, ie, money exchanged.
Welcome to the forum too. Rest assured not all threads are like this one :thumbsup:
@Katmandu (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9201)
Your thoughts are what I always believed - until money changes hands, either party can decline the offer. And welcome to the forum. :thumbsup:
That is all correct except what defines the beginning of the financial transaction as the law was drafted long before the concept of pre-authorisation. There was a recent case to decide this that went as follows.
The argument was about when does a payment start as that is the point of entry of the contracted stage. It was argued that you start to pay as soon as an action by the vendor has an impact on the buyers finances. Specifically the QC argued that the pre authorisation request by a vendor to PayPal or other would be noted by the funding source and consequently will have an affect on how they view the financial position of the buyer. Therefore the act of pre authorisation was the beginning of the financial transaction and consequently the start of the contract. the argument was accepted.
I saw this on a trading standards notification so if there is a lawyer on the forum who can name the case it would be appreciated.
that 's enough legalese please, or we will consider locking this thread!!
NickR
Getting things back on topic, I wonder if Kato will be prototypical and have white door frames on the GWR sets, the real 5 car 800s being vinyls over white paint. The Class 802s are painted green, as are the 9 car 800s.
Cheers, Timmo
Hi all,
Of course this is coming to fruition now and I can't wait to see them land next year, sadly alas the two current liveries GWR and LNER aren't for me :-[
But the differences in modelling terms for a TPE variant are very very minor, in fact its the plated windows in first class 2 instead of 3 on GWR units and then literally 6 inch cut outs on the underframe valances on the GWR versions of the 80x series which are smaller on the TPE versions (something I could happily live with).
So all is not lost yet as a livery and change of the number of windows infilled (as well as the different seating positions in 1st class are well minor alterations in the grand scheme of such a project by well probably the largest N gauge firm in the world! But we shall see if my hopes are answered
Quote from: pape_timmo on November 28, 2020, 10:10:33 PM
Getting things back on topic, I wonder if Kato will be prototypical and have white door frames on the GWR sets, the real 5 car 800s being vinyls over white paint. The Class 802s are painted green, as are the 9 car 800s.
Cheers, Timmo
Probably. @pape_timmo (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1676)
https://mobile.twitter.com/kato_team/status/1332232325837406209/photo/1
That's a half decent looking BWHS pantograph too, albeit the angle's not great to check the upper linkage - be great if they do those as spares!
Quote from: njee20 on November 29, 2020, 09:36:44 AM
That's a half decent looking BWHS pantograph too, albeit the angle's not great to check the upper linkage - be great if they do those as spares!
I was thinking that/ A nice, sturdy, dummy high-speed pan is what we need. All my Dapol examples have fallen apart (and look awful) and my 91s could really use them.
Dapol were close, but they made them bizarrely long! Revolution's ones are lovely, but not availalbe as spares - the 86s, 90s, 350s etc are all crying out for a better one!
Quote from: captainelectra on November 29, 2020, 10:23:19 AM
Quote from: njee20 on November 29, 2020, 09:36:44 AM
That's a half decent looking BWHS pantograph too, albeit the angle's not great to check the upper linkage - be great if they do those as spares!
I was thinking that/ A nice, sturdy, dummy high-speed pan is what we need. All my Dapol examples have fallen apart (and look awful) and my 91s could really use them.
Trouble is that sturdy and finely modelled tend not to sit together. My experience of the TGVs is they can be posed, and dismantled by a bridge after moving from the posed position. On the plus side that means there is a need/demand for spares. :-)
Those Instagram pictures look great, and glad to see the white door frames. Looking really good
Cheers, Timmo
:hellosign:
Obviously couldn`t resist this model, GWR from ROS, thank you MR Kato.
stay safe regards Derek.
I ordered the same a while back. Should look good alongside my green GWR HST :thumbsup:
Keith at Train Trax email this morning:
"Just announced the release of the Class 800's will be May 2021. This will be a limited run and a further production run will not take place until 2023."
Umph. I don't like that.
Presumably confirms they really are just dipping a toe into the water.
Also means very little chance of any discount.
But it's an excellent price already, isn't it? I'm not sure you'd really want it to be discounted.
I'm not sure I see the difference between this and any other manufacturer. Farish, Dapol, Revolution, Rapido all produce what in effect are limited runs and don't re-issue for, in some cases, many more than 2 years.
At least in this case we've been told off the bat what the situation, like Rapido and Revolution do. I like that approach.
Best
Scott.
If it only costs a penny I'd still like a little discount. :D
I guess that means we won't be seeing the Trans-Pennine or Hull Trains 802s anytime soon, without a little outside intervention :)
Quote from: NGS-PO on December 08, 2020, 02:00:02 PM
But it's an excellent price already, isn't it?
At least in this case we've been told off the bat what the situation, like Rapido and Revolution do. I like that approach.
Agree on both counts. Just compare the Kato 5 car IET with a Farish 3 car DMU and you'll soon see a price difference!
As a comparison, the RRP for the 5-car IEP is the same as a Farish 2-Car Class 170 (with no lights, DCC or separate mouldings).
Shurly shome mishtake?
Don't suppose there is much hope of getting the LNER, Hitachi IEP Bi-Mode Class 800/1, 'Azuma' 9 car set then?
I'd say the answer very much depends on how well these first models do for Kato. If they do well out of them, then eventually you'd have to surmise other versions will follow.
If, however, they tank, or Kato don't see a future in UK outline...then the wait might be even longer.
Best
Scott.
Quote from: GlenEglise on December 08, 2020, 02:44:41 PM
Don't suppose there is much hope of getting the LNER, Hitachi IEP Bi-Mode Class 800/1, 'Azuma' 9 car set then?
I imagine proving there's high demand for the model in general, followed by a nice letter to Mr. Kato (very nice chap, had the pleasure of meeting him once), might result in runs of further variations. Kato do like to get the most out of their tooling (they still do runs of stuff first produced 40 or 50 years ago) so I imagine they're in it for the longer term.
No one has mentioned that they are specked to join two sets to make a 10 car unit. That is a really good feature.
The 9-cars will require a little additional tooling for the two trailer cars which have inside-bearing bogies, like the Voyager. Personally, I'd like to see the 9-car sets released as a whole, rather than an expansion pack, so the correct set numbers are maintained.
It will be interesting to see what variations the Avanti and First Group sets will bring. The new EMR sets will be very different beasts, with shorter bodies and restyled front ends.
They are the new HST and look how far Dapol have miked their tooling. This model is going to be around a long time. I take the same view of the Revolution Mk5 coaches, they will need adjustments but a start has been made.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 08, 2020, 03:25:16 PM
they will need adjustments but a start has been bade.
Do you have a cold, David? ;)
Dear Keith @Traintrax (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1645) have just placed my pre-order for an 800.
Merry Christmas.
Yours excitedly
Alec..........jingle all the way etc. etc. :)
Quote from: daffy on December 08, 2020, 01:35:17 PM
Keith at Train Trax email this morning:
"Just announced the release of the Class 800's will be May 2021. This will be a limited run and a further production run will not take place until 2023."
As others have said elsewhere, a mistake Hornby-Arnold may have made with their Brighton Belle was doing a re-run very quickly, after the first batch sold well, instead of waiting for a couple of years for demand to re-build.
As a result, the re-run didn't sell very well, thus seemingly putting Hornby off further incursions into UK N, at least for the time being. Kato seem rather wiser than that.
Also, not re-running the class 800s for a couple of years doesn't preclude Kato producing another model in the interim...
RT
Quote from: gc4946 on July 27, 2019, 10:32:26 AM
I should say the individual class 800 carriages are 26m long which works out in 1:148 as 175.67 mm.
A nine-car unit would be 1581 mm long ...
then you'll need to allow room for couplings, allowing for that my guess the complete formation would approach 1630 mm.
It would be longer than my Revolution Trains' 9-car Pendolino!
A 9-car unit isn't feasible with my current setup but a 5-car version would suit me fine.
A 1:148 5-car 800 or 802 unit would roughly be the same length as a 2+5 HST which I also own.
Using @gc4946 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2573) figures indicates that the 5 car unit expected in May 2021 will measure 900mm in length (give or take just a couple of millimetres). I've tried wading through all the information that I can find but cannot spot anything definitive. I'm anticipating having to lengthen a couple of platforms on my layout. Has anyone seen the exact length published yet?
Alec.
The real things are 26m per coach, 130m for a 5car set.
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: pape_timmo on December 09, 2020, 04:50:15 PM
The real things are 26m per coach, 130m for a 5car set.
Cheers, Timmo
Translated into 1:148 scale it's 878.3 mm.
Allowing for couplings it'll end up around 895 mm.
For those following this model:
This from hattons:
We have been provided with further news on Kato's forthcoming N gauge model of the Class 800 Bi-Modal Multiple Unit. Early 3D renders have been shown giving you an initial impression as to how the models will look.
Digital capability has been confirmed via a selection of custom decoders. Individual decoders are required for motor and lighting functions and these are available separately or as part of one pack. You can also control interior lighting using individual decoders in each car.
Features include:
Available as 5-car train pack or starter train set
Highly detailed model
Intricate livery application
Directional LED lighting
Unique coupling allows for running units in multiple
Powerful motor with flywheel
Prototypical disc braked wheels with no traction tyres
Digital capability
https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949&utm_campaign=mar-300-katoclass800decoderupdate&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJzY290dHN0aXRjaGVsbEB5YWhvby5jby51ayIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkpHUWVYaCJ9 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949&utm_campaign=mar-300-katoclass800decoderupdate&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Klaviyo&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJzY290dHN0aXRjaGVsbEB5YWhvby5jby51ayIsICJrbF9jb21wYW55X2lkIjogIkpHUWVYaCJ9)
Best
Scott
Hattons just posted a note on DCC for the 800.
It is the standard Kato DCC offering which is good and bad.
The good part is that the coaches are wired for DCC lights, also the head and tail lights have their own decoders separate from the motor decoder. They are all clip in. The downside is the Kato motor decoder is not fantastic.
However it looks as if a better or sound decoder will be able to be wired into the model without too much butchery. My plan will be to wire a sound decoder at the motor end, coach light decoders in the coaches and a tail light decoder at the other end. I will need to see how the decoders can be configured to allow the back and front lights to be turned off where these ends are coupled for a 10 car unit.
QuoteI will need to see how the decoders can be configured to allow the back and front lights to be turned off where these ends are coupled for a 10 car unit.
This may be as simple as neodymium magnets in the nose cones of the models and disconnect reed switches in the tail cones. So when they are coupled the LEDs are disabled.
The email from Hattons, I received states that a five car set will require 8 decoders, one for the motor, 2 for directional lighting and to control the coach lighting if required 5 more. A total of £127.50 for decoders.
Geoff
In such case I'll plumb for a fitting a 21 pin socket.
Quote from: geoffc on December 10, 2020, 11:52:59 AM
The email from Hattons, I received states that a five car set will require 8 decoders, one for the motor, 2 for directional lighting and to control the coach lighting if required 5 more. A total of £127.50 for decoders.
Geoff
So every car has a socket, and driving / motor cars have two sockets (with the motor decoder socket being different)?
Why do they do this and not use one of the industry-standard designs such as Next-18?
Quote from: davidinyork on December 10, 2020, 12:47:28 PM
Quote from: geoffc on December 10, 2020, 11:52:59 AM
The email from Hattons, I received states that a five car set will require 8 decoders, one for the motor, 2 for directional lighting and to control the coach lighting if required 5 more. A total of £127.50 for decoders.
Geoff
So every car has a socket, and driving / motor cars have two sockets (with the motor decoder socket being different)?
Why do they do this and not use one of the industry-standard designs such as Next-18?
They are clip in PCBs not socketed decoders. The motor decoder for instance simply slips between two phosphor bronze wipers.
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-6741-12610780471371_thumb.jpg)
(https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_12_2009/post-6741-1261078065195.jpg)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on December 10, 2020, 11:08:20 AM
The downside is the Kato motor decoder is not fantastic.
Hi,
I thought I had read that these decoders were made by Zimo, is that not the case?Decoders are made by Digitrax
When these were announced, I was really excited, but, the more details we get, the less enthusiastic I become :(
John P
8 decoders does seem mad. The fact the Head and tail light ones can't control the interior lights seems crazy. Will they have interior lights on all the time without a decoder, or will they not work at all? I presume the latter, but that feels illogical if they're fitted. Presumably the decoders 'make' the circuit.
It looks like inter-unit couplings are Scharfenberg style;
however it's unclear about how wide are gaps between carriages and whether the couplers include cams allowing opening out round bends and closing on straights
I don't like closed systems. Why can't companies that trade internationally follow international standards?
My stock purchasing is naturally starting to dry up - I pretty much have everything I want. I would like a GWR 800, but I'm happy to go without. If I have to put an end date to the period I model, then 2016 is as good a year as any.
@jpendle (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3871) there is a Zimo decoder set (like you I knew I'd read that!), the Lemke ones, part 10950-D1. However at €75 for the three they're not far off double price of the Kato ones.
I'm tempted to get one as I've said because I'd like to support Kato, although it sounds like the Japanese market makes or breaks it. I will not be paying £90 for interior lighting though!
Quote from: RailGooner on December 10, 2020, 06:48:53 PM
I don't like closed systems. Why can't companies that trade internationally follow international standards?
Agreed. I think basically it's because they can.
This links to the DCC instructions for the Kato DB ICE4, which gives a Zimo part number for each of the standard Kato decoders. 7 car train needs 10 decoders to control head and tail lights, motor, and interior lighting in 7 cars.
http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/Digitalisierungs_Anleitung_Kato_ICE4_EN.pdf (http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/Digitalisierungs_Anleitung_Kato_ICE4_EN.pdf)
I doubt there will many Kato IEPs with DCC controlled interior lighting, but the lighting from the 11-212 lighting sets are DCC compatible so lights would be on permanently.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on December 10, 2020, 07:01:15 PM
This links to the DCC instructions for the Kato DB ICE4, which gives a Zimo part number for each of the standard Kato decoders. 7 car train needs 10 decoders to control head and tail lights, motor, and interior lighting in 7 cars.
http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/Digitalisierungs_Anleitung_Kato_ICE4_EN.pdf (http://www.zimo.at/web2010/documents/Digitalisierungs_Anleitung_Kato_ICE4_EN.pdf)
I doubt there will many Kato IEPs with DCC controlled interior lighting.
Useful, the F1 to control interior lighting will interfere with sound on/off on most sound decoders so will require remapping.
Pictures have been published on Lemke's Facebook page.
(https://scontent-cdt1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/s960x960/130183147_3492744000774552_8911837605487229555_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=2&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=-Oy60B1VQlQAX_lxCM4&_nc_ht=scontent-cdt1-1.xx&tp=7&oh=325d5b4ccd84b8fdb8b4f4770e53e7d7&oe=5FFFC162)
Very impressive renders. Be nice to see some physical models.
Yes, those are the same renders that have been around since the announcement a couple of weeks ago.
It does look excellent. What with this and the final days HST I'm dangerously close to needing a GW layout.
I just need Turbos and 387s and I'd be well away 😂🤣
They look to be large flanges on the wheels in the render. Will have to wait to see the real thing.
Geoff
Large? I've seen smaller wheels used in Dominos (https://www.dominos.co.uk/)! I'm sure they will be fine in real life though. Both of my Eurostars from Kato are fine from what I remember.
Actually the Eurostar does have coarser flanges than we're used to. They don't play particularly well with code 40 track. I suspect this will be the same. Should be fine on Peco though.
Ok, I didn't realise that. I have only run them on Kato track which I think is code 80. My main run will be code 55 so hopefully they will be ok on this too.
Yes, they'll be fine on code 55. It's the reduced height of code 40 which can cause issues.
Video (in Japanese) with shots of pre-production unpainted prototype:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=395&v=BynNxy7xOlI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=395&v=BynNxy7xOlI)
Quote from: railsquid on January 18, 2021, 02:23:30 PM
Video (in Japanese) with shots of pre-production unpainted prototype:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=395&v=BynNxy7xOlI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=395&v=BynNxy7xOlI)
Class 800 begins at 6:36 and finishes at 7:10
Thanks for the video link, that looks really good.
Hi,
The thing I can't understand is the new Allegra version...what are differences with oldest ?...
Thank you.
Cheers.
Marco
New update regarding the Class 800. I must say the preproduction looks amazing, and the livery application not bad at all either!
Now... who can translate Japanese for me?
:NGaugersRule:
That looks most promising and the GWR livery is spot on with the matt panel behind the lettering looking particularly nice. The GWR 800s were delivered in white undercoat and vinyled green and the finish reflects this nicely. The 802s were painted and have a much shiner appearance without the white bits around the cab doors.
Really excited about my Azuma. Might have to think about some Trans-Pennine vinyls at some point.
That's a very nice looking model, still not stopping me think about respraying to Hull Trains livery though!
Hattons update:
https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949)
I'm very very tempted. This might mark the start of me getting modern stuff.
'Gaugemaster' have just issued a similar update - won't be long now! :)
new images on here https://www.osbornsmodels.com/kato-10-1671-class-8000-gwr-iet-800-021-5-car-emu-50737-p.asp (https://www.osbornsmodels.com/kato-10-1671-class-8000-gwr-iet-800-021-5-car-emu-50737-p.asp)
I hope it's just the photos, but the colour doesn't look good. Much too teal.
I would still prefer DCC to NEM standards rather than Kato's proprietry offerings. But, the price of the DCC89 decoder pack isn't as frightening as I was anticipating.
From an email from Hattons:
Manufacturer:
Kato
Prototype:
Class 800 IET
Scale:
N Gauge
First Introduced:
2021
DCC Capability:
DCC Ready with PCB Solder points
So does this mean we can fit decoders of our choice??
Geoff
Quote from: njee20 on March 08, 2021, 07:14:52 PM
I hope it's just the photos, but the colour doesn't look good. Much too teal.
GWR Green is a hard one to judge. Having seen the modern and original greens side-by side at Old Oak open dey, I would say the Kato model looks OK. The new green has a definite blue-ish tint compared to the original brunswick. Kato also have caught the satin vinyl finish applied to the GWR 800s. The painted 802s and HSTs have a much richer sheen.
Quote from: geoffc on March 08, 2021, 08:37:54 PM
From an email from Hattons:
Manufacturer:
Kato
Prototype:
Class 800 IET
Scale:
N Gauge
First Introduced:
2021
DCC Capability:
DCC Ready with PCB Solder points
So does this mean we can fit decoders of our choice??
Geoff
Of course you can :D
Might not be that easy though. :(
I can't find the link, but I think that Zimo make a decoder for Lemke(By Kato) trains that is the same format as the Kato decoders.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on March 08, 2021, 09:30:08 PM
Quote from: geoffc on March 08, 2021, 08:37:54 PM
From an email from Hattons:
Manufacturer:
Kato
Prototype:
Class 800 IET
Scale:
N Gauge
First Introduced:
2021
DCC Capability:
DCC Ready with PCB Solder points
So does this mean we can fit decoders of our choice??
Geoff
Of course you can :D
Might not be that easy though. :(
I can't find the link, but I think that Zimo make a decoder for Lemke(By Kato) trains that is the same format as the Kato decoders.
Regards,
John P
the custom Kato decoders are here ( 1/2 way down page)
https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949)
other retailers are available
Quote from: Railwaygun on March 08, 2021, 10:54:08 PM
Quote from: jpendle on March 08, 2021, 09:30:08 PM
Quote from: geoffc on March 08, 2021, 08:37:54 PM
From an email from Hattons:
Manufacturer:
Kato
Prototype:
Class 800 IET
Scale:
N Gauge
First Introduced:
2021
DCC Capability:
DCC Ready with PCB Solder points
So does this mean we can fit decoders of our choice??
Geoff
Of course you can :D
Might not be that easy though. :(
I can't find the link, but I think that Zimo make a decoder for Lemke(By Kato) trains that is the same format as the Kato decoders.
Regards,
John P
the custom Kato decoders are here ( 1/2 way down page)
https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949 (https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=949)
They look like the ones made by Zimo for Lemke.
I guess we won't know until someone buys one and checks the manufacturer ID.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: osborns on March 08, 2021, 11:02:41 PM
other retailers are available
Thanks for the reminder!
More progress from about 14.40 in this video:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY011gLi-K0%C2%A0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY011gLi-K0%C2%A0)
The Azuma is the wrong end of the country for me, but a really beatiful looking model. Makes the 800/0 look very plain.
I took an age to choose but both liveries look crackin'.
Alec.
Is it just me or is the GWR version more a shade of grey than green?
hopefully it is just the lighting, other pictures appear better.
Unusual for Kato to include a deliberate error on the Azuma - with a release date of 5/2020 according to the ID card in the video.
If it is released in May it will probably take two or three months to get to our shores. Even though it is at least 40 years outside my era I have pre-ordered one. The first time I have bought anything that doesn't fit my era/location. The running space is ready and waiting for a GWR version......
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/107/3123-230321064039.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=107800)
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 23, 2021, 06:41:05 AM
Even though it is at least 40 years outside my era I have pre-ordered one.
Likewise, Chris. After all, it is pure eye candy!
The instruction sheet and parts list is now available to download:-
https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/20210419152442607d222acf906/class800.pdf
This also cover the version with a trackset so has instructions on how to fit the dummy marker light on a buffer stop track.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on April 24, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
The instruction sheet and parts list is now available to download..
Hi Mike,
Good find - thanks for posting.
I must admit I am a little confused by the diagram showing the arrangement for multiple working - it seems to be suggesting that Kato are offering number variations. Is this correct?
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on April 24, 2021, 09:31:12 AM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on April 24, 2021, 09:15:31 AM
The instruction sheet and parts list is now available to download..
Hi Mike,
Good find - thanks for posting.
I must admit I am a little confused by the diagram showing the arrangement for multiple working - it seems to be suggesting that Kato are offering number variations. Is this correct?
cheers
Ben A.
Maybe the versions in the Gaugemaster etc. sets have different numbers. The 282mm radius and needing a straight between reverse curves of a crossover might limit its use on some layouts. It also appears to come with a display track and buffer stop. No R1 station throats allowed.
Interesting. Requiring a straight between reverse curves isn't great, that presumably excludes their own crossovers, which is very odd.
I think that Kato can be a bit overcautious. The Eurostar minimum radius is 312mm but I know I have had mine safely through the one piece of R1 in the fiddle yard. Let's hope that the reverse curve issue is also a "belts and braces" measure for running at a scale 125mph, which we would only do if putting a video on Facebook, wouldn't we? :-)
Hello all,
I agree that Kato are cautious, and rightly so IMO. Always better to under-promise than over-promise.
In addition, and despite the wording, I suspect this is only an issue for the tightest radii. No4 turnouts have a diverging radius of 481mm, and No6 turnouts a diverging radius of 718mm, so I doubt these will cause an issue.
Having said that of course, until we can test the models for ourselves this is all just (educated) guesswork!
cheers
Ben A.
Yes, I agree with the Eurostar I've run mine through 9" curves without issue. I guess the potential issue with the 800 is the 26m coach lengths, but I'm sure you're right about their pessimism. Although of no geographical relevance for me I look forward to getting my paws on one!
Rails say they're arriving in June
https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3805-kato-n-scale-class-800
Quote from: gc4946 on May 08, 2021, 11:10:33 AM
Rails say they're arriving in June
https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3805-kato-n-scale-class-800
Excellent - announcement to arrival in just under 2 years. That's what we like to see.
Other manufacturers please take note. :P
my info says GWR version first at end of May followed by LNER in June
Quote from: osborns on May 08, 2021, 11:28:58 AM
my info says GWR version first at end of May followed by LNER in June
Aha - but you come before Rails alphabetically :D
Even better as it's the GWR one I've ordered. Not long after a multi thousand pound bill for a new mancave roof, though :'(
Hopefully there will be no hairline cracks (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247) in the Kato version :goggleeyes:
Quote from: Trainfish on May 08, 2021, 11:35:40 AM
Hopefully there will be no hairline cracks (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57036247) in the Kato version :goggleeyes:
Apparently the Kato factory has been doing night shifts, and a van from Hammers'R'Us was spotted entering the delivery area earlier.
It wouldn't be realistic without them
We may have to add "crack - counters " to the vocabulary!
crack counters -----------no how would hairline scale down anyway?
GWR version due in at Rails this week
https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3805-kato-n-scale-class-800
Will it come with a faulty chassis that will only come to light once you can't take it back?
Hopefully will see mine next week then :claphappy:
God I'm not sure I can handle any more of the 'jokes' about cracks, can't they just keep the models for a few weeks until everyone's forgotten! :confused1:
Hopefully I'll receive mine soon then as long as it isn't replaced by an old HST like GWR are apparently doing down here. I've got enough of those! Sorry @njee20 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1147)
Meh, you seen how much GWR HSTs are going for? Sell it and buy two 800s!
No I haven't but if they send me one as a replacement then I'll take your advice as I already have a full GWR set. Knowing my luck they'll probably send me a couple of buses as a replacement service though :(
I swear if I see another joke about "cracks" or comments along the lines of "oooo...the HSTs and 91s are much better than this plastic ****", I will mutter some very bad words.
Looking forward greatly to my Mini-zuma.
Pleased to say that I just received an invoice from Keith Blanchard at Train Trax for my GWR Class 800. Now it's paid I just need to wait patiently for the delivery process to complete. I'll need to clear a space for it, so the Kato Thalys PBA TGV is going back into its box.
Hi all,
I saw this video earlier, I think this is the model running in the Kato factory shop in Tokyo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hocu3JttJ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hocu3JttJ4)
cheers
Ben A.
Yup, that's the Kato HQ showroom, I must cycle over there again one day soon (need some parts).
According to the Kato release schedule (https://www.katomodels.com/schedule), the GWR version (10-1671) was released on May 11th; the LNER version is next on the list.
Looks lovely :heart2: but still more GWR 'grey' than GWR 'green' :hmmm:
I've never seen one in the flesh, though, only on the TV series about Paddington station.
Quote from: Ben A on May 12, 2021, 03:19:44 PM
Hi all,
I saw this video earlier, I think this is the model running in the Kato factory shop in Tokyo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hocu3JttJ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hocu3JttJ4)
cheers
Ben A.
Blimey I don't much rate the camerawork of the person filming that....feel a bit queasy...
The unit looks very sleek, fine panto and good close corridor connections. However, aforementioned camerawork does the perceived running quality no favours!
Skyline2uk
Quote from: Skyline2uk on May 12, 2021, 04:09:04 PM
Quote from: Ben A on May 12, 2021, 03:19:44 PM
Hi all,
I saw this video earlier, I think this is the model running in the Kato factory shop in Tokyo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hocu3JttJ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hocu3JttJ4)
cheers
Ben A.
Blimey I don't much rate the camerawork of the person filming that....feel a bit queasy...
The unit looks very sleek, fine panto and good close corridor connections. However, aforementioned camerawork does the perceived running quality no favours!
Skyline2uk
I was going to say exactly the same thing. Hope
It runs better than it looks in this video.
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 12, 2021, 03:47:28 PM
Looks lovely :heart2: but still more GWR 'grey' than GWR 'green' :hmmm:
I've never seen one in the flesh, though, only on the TV series about Paddington station.
I see these fairly regularly and the colour looks ok to me!
Shame they haven't replicated the visible banding where the vinyl wrap overlaps like the prototype :D :D :D
Cheers Colin
That's the best I've seen the colour looking! It is a weird colour, incredibly variable in different lights.
Never having seen one in the flesh, I do not know how accurate the colours are, but it is still a lovely looking train and I am glad that is the one I ordered. It does not fit with the new layout but what the heck, what is Rule 1 for? :). Now if it could arrive in time for my birthday ......
Quote from: dannyboy on May 12, 2021, 07:37:01 PM
Never having seen one in the flesh, I do not know how accurate the colours are, but it is still a lovely looking train and I am glad that is the one I ordered. It does not fit with the new layout but what the heck, what is Rule 1 for? :).
Likewise, David. I ordered one to demonstrate to Kato some support for them producing a model for the UK market in the same way I ordered a Pendolino when RevolutioN first launched it, and I don't even acknowledge Rule 1.
Rule 1 always applies in my world. Even on the real railway.... look at c2c class 387s running on GWR in the next few days.....
Loving the look of the 800 model tho. Hope they still have stocks for non preorders...
Cheers, Timmo
Just got news from Gaugemaster, the importer for Kato, that they have received the Class 800 5 car pack and they are ready to be send out to the dealers.
In reply to the question of Timmo. All the stock I've (Tramfabriek) ordered is not pre-ordered, as I haven't even announced that I will be selling these, so there will be still some to buy. I would think most dealers will have ordered more than pre-ordered.
Looking so forward to the model myself!
Sven
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 12, 2021, 03:01:16 PM
Pleased to say that I just received an invoice from Keith Blanchard at Train Trax for my GWR Class 800. Now it's paid I just need to wait patiently for the delivery process to complete. I'll need to clear a space for it, so the Kato Thalys PBA TGV is going back into its box.
He tells me that the add-on crack set will be available in 4-5 years!
Has anyone got one yet? Is it a cracking model? :D
I'll get my coat. :sorrysign:
The floodgates will open tomorrow. :claphappy:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/3761-130521181210.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=109676)
Well, I've bitten the bullet and order a 5 car IET set this afternoon. But I'm still somewhat concerned about the radius statements in this thread and others. Whilst the majority of my layout is third and fourth radius, there is one curve that's second to fit within the board. So let's see how it goes.
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 13, 2021, 06:13:03 PM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/3761-130521181210.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=109676)
Let's see how many people read the whole announcement ;)
John P
yes very funny at the end
Quote from: stuartgoble on May 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
I'll eat my hat if there is. This isn't a new set of decoders, it's a standard Kato item, because they insist on doing things differently, and have the market presence to get away with it.
Quote from: jpendle on May 13, 2021, 07:15:17 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 13, 2021, 06:13:03 PM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/3761-130521181210.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=109676)
Let's see how many people read the whole announcement ;)
John P
Maybe a similar message from LNER, once Kato's Azumas arrive on these shores!
Quote from: stuartgoble on May 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
The lights work on DC or DCC without needing a decoder.........unless you want to switch lights on and off using DCC.
Rails of Sheffield have confirmed they have the GWR ones in stock so, all things going well, I should have it in my hands maybe early next week. Luckily my Unitrack test oval is 282mm radius.
I wonder if they'll honour the pre order price of £169.50 :hmmm:
Quote from: njee20 on May 13, 2021, 07:23:33 PM
Quote from: stuartgoble on May 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
I'll eat my hat if there is. This isn't a new set of decoders, it's a standard Kato item, because they insist on doing things differently, and have the market presence to get away with it.
So how much would a Farish Pullman cost with lights and DCC, or even a full length Dapol HST? £178 is a comparative bargain. The higher cost of DCC and lighting could be because of volumes. They will sell thousands of these sets in Japan and from what I have been told the vast majority will be plain analogue.
A 2+5 HST would be ~£300, with lights and DCC. So a chunk cheaper. Admittedly you don't have DCC control of those lights.
The constant comparisons of price, whilst understandable, seem misguided; "how can Farish get away with charging x when this is y?!", the answer, as you say, is volume, pure and simple, as Kato are probably make 20 times as many 800s as Farish have ever made of anything! However, it's interesting that it doesn't stack up anywhere near as well once you start adding those accessories into the mix. I'm not a fan of Kato's insistence on proprietary decoders, it's symptomatic of a manufacturer using their dominance of a market in a way which doesn't benefit the consumer. I know DCC isn't anywhere near as common in Japan, which is no doubt a factor in 1) their continuing avoidance of mainstream decoders and 2) the price of the parts to convert.
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 13, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
I wonder if they'll honour the pre order price of £169.50 :hmmm:
In the same position with the LNER version, but this is some text straight from Rails 'Terms of Sale' (link at the footer of their web pages on the right).
In the event of a price increase before the item is released the price will be updated on the product and you will be contacted to confirm if you wish to accept the new price or cancel the pre order. By accepting the new price, the order is reconfirmed and the new higher price will be updated on your pre order. If you choose not to accept the new price the order is cancelled.For the decoder prices, I thought £42 compared pretty well for what are essentially two function decoders and a motor decoder.
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: stuartgoble on May 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM
Well, I've bitten the bullet and order a 5 car IET set this afternoon. But I'm still somewhat concerned about the radius statements in this thread and others. Whilst the majority of my layout is third and fourth radius, there is one curve that's second to fit within the board. So let's see how it goes.
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
I had to buy the Zimo versions to have compatible Railcom, probably about a 1/3 more, which was partly behind my decision for now to not have decoders for the carriage lighting... Same issue as you with the radius, so will be "interesting" to see.
Quote from: Vonzack on May 13, 2021, 09:02:49 PM
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 13, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
I wonder if they'll honour the pre order price of £169.50 :hmmm:
For the decoder prices, I thought £42 compared pretty well for what are essentially two function decoders and a motor decoder.
Cheers, Mark.
Yes, agreed, it's the interior lighting which pushes the cost up, as you need another 5 decoders, ie a total of 8 for the whole train, which is pretty impressive!
Be easier if it just used 6-pin (or Next 18) of course :)
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 13, 2021, 08:38:13 PM
Rails of Sheffield have confirmed they have the GWR ones in stock so, all things going well, I should have it in my hands maybe early next week. Luckily my Unitrack test oval is 282mm radius.
I wonder if they'll honour the pre order price of £169.50 :hmmm:
That's what they have charged me, £169.50 + £4 postage and it has been posted today :claphappy:
Quote from: Alan Kyte on May 13, 2021, 09:31:32 PM
Quote from: stuartgoble on May 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM
Well, I've bitten the bullet and order a 5 car IET set this afternoon. But I'm still somewhat concerned about the radius statements in this thread and others. Whilst the majority of my layout is third and fourth radius, there is one curve that's second to fit within the board. So let's see how it goes.
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
I had to buy the Zimo versions to have compatible Railcom, probably about a 1/3 more, which was partly behind my decision for now to not have decoders for the carriage lighting... Same issue as you with the radius, so will be "interesting" to see.
Where did you buy these from, and how much were they?
Thanks,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on May 13, 2021, 10:43:03 PM
Quote from: Alan Kyte on May 13, 2021, 09:31:32 PM
Quote from: stuartgoble on May 13, 2021, 07:10:22 PM
Well, I've bitten the bullet and order a 5 car IET set this afternoon. But I'm still somewhat concerned about the radius statements in this thread and others. Whilst the majority of my layout is third and fourth radius, there is one curve that's second to fit within the board. So let's see how it goes.
What's more concerning is going to be the cost of adding DCC and lighting to the model. Having spent £178 for the set, facing another £160 for the lights and decoders is going to be hard to swallow. I'm hoping someone with a non-Kato solution for this going forward.
I had to buy the Zimo versions to have compatible Railcom, probably about a 1/3 more, which was partly behind my decision for now to not have decoders for the carriage lighting... Same issue as you with the radius, so will be "interesting" to see.
Where did you buy these from, and how much were they?
Thanks,
John P
https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/zimo/decoders/n-kato/ (https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/products/zimo/decoders/n-kato/)
Not the bestest of piccies, but I can personally verify the GWR version exists and is on sale:
(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/kato-gwr-800-series.jpg)
Does look like a very nice model (though I've never seen the prototype so can't compare).
Only 4 cars on display as the case wasn't quite wide enough.
It's Kato. 'Nuff said. :thumbsup:
(https://www.osbornsmodels.com/ekmps/shops/osbornsmodels/resources/products/kato101671_1.jpg)
a bit of display track in the pack as well
Hi all,
Just in. Very nice. The GWR livery doesn't photograph especially well but looks good to me in reality. I haven't had time to test run it yet.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/94-140521110954-109675975.jpeg)
But even on first glance this is clearly a significant model, of high quality, of a prototype that is pretty much essential for the modern scene and bodes well for British N in general.
cheers
Ben A.
My pair have just arrived and they are fantastic.
Can they be fitted with a standard coupler to 'drag' them with a loco?
Quote from: davidinyork on May 14, 2021, 11:59:28 AM
Can they be fitted with a standard coupler to 'drag' them with a loco?
The Kato instructions can be viewed here.
https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/20210419152438607d22265a324/class800.pdf
You will need to modify the coupler on the dragging loco or the Class 800 just like the real ones need adapters. Kato show the shape of the drawbars used to join two units.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 14, 2021, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on May 14, 2021, 11:59:28 AM
Can they be fitted with a standard coupler to 'drag' them with a loco?
The Kato instructions can be viewed here.
https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/20210419152438607d22265a324/class800.pdf
You will need to modify the coupler on the dragging loco or the Class 800 just like the real ones need adapters. Kato show the shape of the drawbars used to join two units.
I assume this idea is to push a dummy locomotive or you could have problems.
QuoteYour Rails of Sheffield order has been dispatched
:claphappy:
QuoteYour Rails of Sheffield order has been delivered
:claphappy:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/262-140521130805-109683631.jpeg)
I guess that means I'll be spending time in the loft later then :D
to those of you who have not had Kato Locos (EMU's) before I would be interested in your opinions of the way the sets are presented and packaged.
Mine has been despatched from Rails at the pre order price so all is well in the world of Nobby :)
Grrr, no news on mine yet from Rails, but I did order with the DCC Decoders and they are still showing as pre-order
Quote from: osborns on May 14, 2021, 03:28:20 PM
to those of you who have not had Kato Locos (EMU's) before I would be interested in your opinions of the way the sets are presented and packaged.
I'll comment when I receive my LNER Azuma set.
Quote from: Vonzack on May 14, 2021, 04:05:25 PM
Grrr, no news on mine yet from Rails,
No news on mine either, although I ordered the Gaugemaster Collection set - my account is showing 'Pending' although the price is shown as without UK Vat - so I don't mind waiting a bit. ;)
Having seen all the pics, I'm eagerly waiting an invoice from TrainTrax for my pre-ordered IET800. I'm just hoping the delay is because I've ordered the dcc chip set to go with it and they may not have arrived yet.
Patience are a virtue I'm told.... :D
Quote from: dannyboy on May 14, 2021, 05:50:24 PM
Quote from: Vonzack on May 14, 2021, 04:05:25 PM
Grrr, no news on mine yet from Rails,
No news on mine either, although I ordered the Gaugemaster Collection set - my account is showing 'Pending' although the price is shown as without UK Vat - so I don't mind waiting a bit. ;)
They're still a few weeks away I believe. I assume because they've got to be put into a different box.
I don't mind a belated birthday present. ;). I'll be happy to look at other members pictures - and watch the videos, (where's the hint smiley?).
I'll just watch the real ones go past the house :)
:P :nerner: :unimpressed: ;)
Mine arrived this morning from Hattons, nicely packaged in a slip case box and the models in a semi hard foam insert. Nothing damaged and nothing had fell off unlike some items I have received from else where.
Coupling up is a bit fiddley as the couplings dont stand out too much from the corridor connections.
Once coupled up given a test run, runs smoothly and quietly from an impressive slow crawl to as fast as I dared go, no flickering of the head and tail lights at any speed.
Kato have set the bench mark for N gauge with this model not only with fidelity but with cost as well. The question is now what will the next UK outline model be that will appeal to Worldwide collectors as well to keep the cost down through sheer volumes produced.
Now for the minus points, mostly trivial, except the lights:
The finger recesses in the packaging are to small to get my fingers in and I dont have big hands so it makes extracting the models awkward.
At slow speed it derails going over a Peco Code 55 double slip, in fairness it is not alone in this problem.
There are no lights in the coaches, a kit needs to be bought separately, the cheapest is from Plaza Japan £20.11 plus postage.
Geoff
Seems ok passing over Ummagumma junction both straight through and also changing tracks to include 2x double slips and 1 long point. There is a slight change in speed as it changes over to a second controller which wasn't set at quite the right speed but that was my fault.
And coming back the other way, I managed to match up the 2 controllers this time :thumbsup:
I agree regarding the finger holes for removing but that's not a big issue to me as it probably won't see the box again until I depart this planet and the wife sells it on :doh:
Mine's just arrived. At the moment the dining modelling table is setup for plastic kits (WW2 Polish Bomber). So running will have to wait till tomorrow.
Quote from: RailGooner on May 15, 2021, 01:28:20 PM
So running will have to wait till tomorrow.
Wouldn't happen in this house :D
Ordered the LNER version, so looks like I will have to wait until next month.
The GWR version looks very nice, great value model at the price point.
Cut a small length plastic film and insert it in the carriage slot in the foam, so that the ends stick out - the coach can then be lifted out of the slot more easily next time
I've seen the GWR version start to pop up on Japanese social media, so there's certainly a domestic market (fueled more by Rule 1 curiosity, going by the comments).
FWIW the instructions/parts sheet for both versions is available for download here: https://s3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com/kato-model/schedule/pdf/20210419152438607d22265a324/class800.pdf
It might be worth saving a copy "just in case", as Kato tend to take the files down after a while, for whatever reason.
Look what just landed on my door step curtesy of Kieth @ Traintrax, A Kato Hitachi Class 800/0 GWR 5 Car set. British based manufacturers could take leaf out of Kato's book this 5 car unit comes complete with enougth track to display the units, in a beautiful proper book style case and by UK standards a very good price.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/3799-160521123448.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=109790)
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
Quote from: davidinyork on May 16, 2021, 12:38:26 PM
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
This is the first time I've seen it with a bookset like this; usually only display/commemorative models (e.g. Tomix's "First Car Museum (https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/firstcarmuseum.html)" range) come with display track.
I suspect some tunnel mouths will need to be modified.
Quote from: davidinyork on May 16, 2021, 12:38:26 PM
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
I wish they hadn't done this - without the track the package could've been the same dimensions as a Dapol bookset, which the OCD in me would've preferred. This Kato box won't fit my storage crates so is doomed to a shabby future.
Quote from: davidinyork on May 16, 2021, 12:38:26 PM
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
Seems a good and relatively inexpensive way to introduce all the people used to Setrack to a different sectional track system.
Bob
I totally agree Bob, it could be a very good marketing ploy.
Some of their TGVs include a length of Unitrack. I agree as a mechanism for getting people hands on with it it's probably quite shrewd marketing!
Hermes delivered my Class 800 from Train Trax today, too. Very pleased with it. Also pleased to say it ran round the R1 (9 inch) curve on one of my fiddle yard tracks without problem even at speed. At half setting on my Morley controller it runs at about 110mph.
Another happy customer from Keith at Traintrax, my pair of GWR 800's were delivered this afternoon by Hermes.
Parcel delivery on a Sunday used to be unheard of.
Ian.
Lovely models, Great runners, To fit DCC next!
Latches painted yellow, Coach ends a work in Progress
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/565-160521190443.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=109810)
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 16, 2021, 05:15:14 PM
Also pleased to say it ran round the R1 (9 inch) curve on one of my fiddle yard tracks without problem even at speed.
I believe you're the first to confirm that, Mike, so thanks for that (not that I have any 9" curves on my main lines :no:)
Quote from: Cazadoom on May 16, 2021, 07:06:09 PM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/565-160521190443.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=109810)
I do like that pic as there's more than a hint of green to the 'grey' of other pics in the thread.
The real things are notoriously difficult to photograph for the same reason, GWR green does look different in changing light conditions.
Cheers, Timmo
This was taken outside under a bright blue sky.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51182250026_d57029cce4_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYNpLE)
Images © Mark Adedeji (https://www.flickr.com/photos/185676938@N06/), on Flickr
My three year old called it my green train, that's good enough for me.
Quote from: railsquid on May 16, 2021, 12:42:39 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on May 16, 2021, 12:38:26 PM
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
This is the first time I've seen it with a bookset like this; usually only display/commemorative models (e.g. Tomix's "First Car Museum (https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/firstcarmuseum.html)" range) come with display track.
I wonder if Kato expect the majority of them sold will just be displayed. Somewhere it was mentioned only 20% have been sold in the UK.
Quote from: Graham on May 16, 2021, 11:49:15 PM
Quote from: railsquid on May 16, 2021, 12:42:39 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on May 16, 2021, 12:38:26 PM
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
This is the first time I've seen it with a bookset like this; usually only display/commemorative models (e.g. Tomix's "First Car Museum (https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/firstcarmuseum.html)" range) come with display track.
I wonder if Kato expect the majority of them sold will just be displayed. Somewhere it was mentioned only 20% have been sold in the UK.
Apparently Kato will sell up to 90% of this model in Japan. As a result, they build in lots of 10k rather than the 1k that Farish, Dapol, et al are limited to. This results in a lower selling price. Apparently the Japanese market will buy a Japanese model regardless of where it runs
It also explains why they go their own way on DCC, AFAIK the Japanese market doesn't 'do' DCC.
So we get a very nice model at a very good price, BUT what's next. I'll probably get one of these as a rule 1 purchase, but a TPE CL802 is what I really want.
Is there any other UK loco/mu that would sell well in Japan?
Regards,
John P
Peco and Kato are planning two Ffestiniog Railway locos in 009.
The "Small England" 0-4-0TT locos will be released first then the Double Fairlie https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3121-peco-oo9-announcement
Otherwise in N Kato might release both Hitachi-built class 395 Javelin and/or the class 385s
Mine arrived this lunchtime. Looks a beauty so I set up my test oval (282mm curves) and trusty Farish train set controller. The Class 800 couplings can be a little finicky and I found required a slight twisting to get them to uncouple. Runs a treat down to a crawl.............
(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/51185851030_cb4c39eea7_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kZ7SdW)Kato Class 800 IET GWR livery (https://flic.kr/p/2kZ7SdW) by Mick Hollyoake (https://www.flickr.com/photos/182878845@N04/), on Flickr
Quote from: gc4946 on May 17, 2021, 07:07:36 AM
Peco and Kato are planning two Ffestiniog Railway locos in 009.
The "Small England" 0-4-0TT locos will be released first then the Double Fairlie https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3121-peco-oo9-announcement
Otherwise in N Kato might release both Hitachi-built class 395 Javelin and/or the class 385s
Not only is that nice for 009 modellers, but it also means another source of good 0-4-0 steam chassis for N gauge modellers :)
Some nice plywood on show there Mike. (And the 800 is nice). ;)
Quote from: dannyboy on May 17, 2021, 02:02:07 PM
Some nice plywood on show there Mike
The wiring looks a bit dodgy though :P
[
Otherwise in N Kato might release both Hitachi-built class 395 Javelin and/or the class 385s
[/quote]
I'd like to see both of these...
Well I suppose someone had to get a duff one but why did it have to be me? :'(
I didn't think they came with sounds like that.
Received mine yesterday and it looks stunning. Haven't had a chance to run it on the test track yet and also need to get the dcc and lighting kits for it.
Having just heard back from the supplier of mine, they shall remain nameless for now, this is apparently not faulty. They say "
We have watched your video and comparing the copy we have on our shelf as well as multiple others that we have tested and we can confirm that these are loud runners and as such do not believe this to be faulty.
The only thing we can suggest that may improve sound is possibly to apply some light lubrication."
Mine was a LOT quieter when first run so I'd be interested to hear from anyone else who may have a comparitive opinion on this. Even better if you have a similar video of the motorised car running at a similar speed. I had already tried light lubrication but in my opinion this hasn't changed anything. I suggested to them that the gears may not be meshing correctly as that's how it sounds to me. I may do another video of it on a rolling road so I can run it at different speeds and send that to them too.
As it is a distance purchase you still have consumer rights.
I would send it back, ask for a refund, as you couldn't tell what it was going to sound like, and ultimately buy one from another supplier.
I cant tell you how many clothes my wife buys that get sent back as inappropriate.
Bob
Inappropriate clothing? Yes, my wife often does the same. It seems that usually the number on the tag is always incorrect :hmmm: Can't say I've ever bought any inappropriate clothing for myself though :goggleeyes:
I have replied to the supplier and told them I will give it a couple of days but stressed that I was worried it could do more damage. I appreciate the distance selling comment and will use that if I need to but hopefully they will agree that it's too noisy (or even broken if run more) and sort it out.
I wouldn't oil a new Kato Loco, that can clog up the mechanism
I agree but it's their recommendation so I'm happy to take a chance. They have now replied to me with "If a fault does arrise rendering the unit inoperable, we can certaintly look into getting this replaced however, having seen the footage and comparing to another we have just tested for a customer in the shop, it was comparable in noise level."
Is anybody else's this noisy? I'm just off to test it on a rolling road and will compare to a Eurostar.
I don't have the Hitachi so probably shouldn't comment – but that doesn't sound right for a Kato ... :no:
Something is not snapped together properly. It is very hard to get a KATO to make that sound deliberately.
Quote from: Hiawatha on May 19, 2021, 01:41:21 PM
I don't have the Hitachi so probably shouldn't comment – but that doesn't sound right for a Kato ... :no:
I agree 100%. I have 2x Eurostars, a TGV and a mulitple unit and they don't sound like this.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 19, 2021, 01:43:10 PM
Something is not snapped together properly. It is very hard to get a KATO to make that sound deliberately.
Yes, I believe the meshing of gears is an issue possibly from as you say, something not snapped together properly.
Here's a comparison video I have just taken. You will hear both the Eurostar and 800 run both forwards and in reverse. They both sound louder than you would expect but an iPhone microphone is very sensitive and this was taken from around 9" away. I would be interested in others' thoughts on the sound. Apart from the whine I can hear a slight clicking taking me back to the old Poole Farish days although not as loud. Yet.
The 800 is currently running on the rolling road at about half speed so let's see what happens. I really don't want to have to fight with a supplier but I will do if I need to :(
It sounds like something is rubbing
Mine has arrived from Rails so I'll be running it in tonight. I'll try and get a comparison if I can.
Kato in my experience are always quiet and smooth unless pushed to top speed, but then you usually just get a whine from them.
I wonder if the body and open ends could be causing a harmonic?
Cheers, Mark.
Hi John,
My 800 is smooth and quiet, so I am pretty sure you've got something slightly out of whack there. The kicker for me is how much the coupler can be seen vibrating on the rolling road.
It's a shame your dealer hasn't stepped up and agreed to swap without question. After all they can just send the dud unit back to Gaugemaster/Kato for repair or refund anyway.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Trainfish on May 19, 2021, 01:15:24 PM
Is anybody else's this noisy?
@Trainfish (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=262) John - see reply #384. Not at high speed like yours and taken with a Canon bridge camera whose mike is maybe not as sensitive as yours.
I found it very quiet (sorry)
Quote from: Trainfish on May 19, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
..
I would be interested in others' thoughts on the sound.
...
Definitely something out of whack with your 800 John. Not only is it squealing like a stuck pig, it's shaking like crazy. Just look at it dancing around and vibrating as you run it up to speed. I wouldn't bother testing further, exercise your rights and request a replacement.
Quote from: Trainfish on May 19, 2021, 02:07:02 PM
Here's a comparison video I have just taken. You will hear both the Eurostar and 800 run both forwards and in reverse. They both sound louder than you would expect but an iPhone microphone is very sensitive and this was taken from around 9" away. I would be interested in others' thoughts on the sound. Apart from the whine I can hear a slight clicking taking me back to the old Poole Farish days although not as loud. Yet.
The 800 is currently running on the rolling road at about half speed so let's see what happens. I really don't want to have to fight with a supplier but I will do if I need to :(
The 800 definitely doesn't sound right (unless they've subcontracted the work out to the Dapol factory :angel: ). Reminds me somewhat of the first ever (new) Kato loco I purchased, which was a buzzy little beast with malfunctioning lights, so I sent it back.
KATO models are clip together. Check that the bogies are clipped together properly and are clipped home in the chassis.
Maybe you got the one with the scale cracks :smiley-laughing:
@Trainfish (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=262)
John, you have been far more accommodating with this retailer than I would be inclined to be.
Frankly the language and general slanting-shoulder attitude on display here is a bit baffling in 2021.
As has been pointed out, it's not working as it should, it's brand new, send it back.
If they give you grief, name and shame as they have no excuse.
Skyline2uk
PS: If you need some assistance, I specialise in writing persuasive letters, having taken on bigger companies than a model shop!
I agree. That sounds awful and is definitely vibrating unduly so just send it back - not of merchantable quality etc etc.
Thanks to
everyone for confirming my fears/concerns. Just to pick out a couple:
Quote from: Ben A on May 19, 2021, 02:25:39 PM
Hi John,
My 800 is smooth and quiet, so I am pretty sure you've got something slightly out of whack there. The kicker for me is how much the coupler can be seen vibrating on the rolling road.
It's a shame your dealer hasn't stepped up and agreed to swap without question. After all they can just send the dud unit back to Gaugemaster/Kato for repair or refund anyway.
cheers
Ben A.
I noticed the coupler vibrating but didn't mention it as I wanted to see if anyone else thought that didn't look right. Well spotted. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't get past Revolution's quality control.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on May 19, 2021, 03:17:02 PM
KATO models are clip together. Check that the bogies are clipped together properly and are clipped home in the chassis.
Maybe you got the one with the scale cracks :smiley-laughing:
Yes, they are usually clip together but I haven't even tried to take this one apart and don't intend to with it being just a few days old. The bogies do seem to be secure though.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on May 19, 2021, 03:17:57 PM
@Trainfish (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=262)
John, you have been far more accommodating with this retailer than I would be inclined to be.
Frankly the language and general slanting-shoulder attitude on display here is a bit baffling in 2021.
As has been pointed out, it's not working as it should, it's brand new, send it back.
If they give you grief, name and shame as they have no excuse.
Skyline2uk
PS: If you need some assistance, I specialise in writing persuasive letters, having taken on bigger companies than a model shop!
They will receive another email shortly where they will be told I
AM returning it at their cost. Any negative response and they will be named and shamed as you suggest.
Thanks for the offer Adam but I'm quite good at getting my point over successfully with suppliers of anything, it's part of my job (when I'm working) and my wife will also tell you I'm pretty good at it on a domestic level too.
Final video I promise. This will also be sent to them. Surely they can't try to deny there's a fault now? Just listen to the sound changes at times when the controller has stayed untouched. For example between 37 and 50 seconds nothing was touched.
And finally finally, has anyone else noticed the difference at the end of the chassis on the motorised coach compared to the others? Looking at suppliers' websites it has been manufactured like this so not a fault as such and maybe it is prototypical. I'll leave that up to the experts on here, many of whom have commented in this thread.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/262-190521161301-1099001101.jpeg)
And finally finally finally please don't let this drama put you off buying a class 800 or indeed anything else from Kato. It is a fine model when running well and I would heartily recommend it to anyone. It's just the supplier who I have a problem with. Not that it should matter but I currently have a £100 order in transit from them right now and have spent over £600 with this supplier in May alone!
The "missing" underframe module is prototypical:
https://youtu.be/1k42IsFK8O4?t=47
The modules at the ends are the toilet retention tanks - that car has a bike-shed rather than a toilet so it's not fitted.
There should be inter-vehicle jumper sockets at the coach ends - looking at the photos on Hattons' website they've molded something to represent them but have left them white rather than paint them dark grey.
Steven B.
OK, so not too happy with mine out of the box, literally picked up the power car, eased it out of the foam and both bogies fell off :(
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/660-190521175325.jpeg)
Easy enough to clip back, but not a great start. Here's a video of the power car running, 0-50% throttle one way then the other. I think it sounds OK and seems to run smoothly enough on the rollers. Need to run it in now.
https://youtu.be/J0Pk4HhOgxM (https://youtu.be/J0Pk4HhOgxM)
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: Vonzack on May 19, 2021, 06:18:12 PM
OK, so not too happy with mine out of the box, literally picked up the power car, eased it out of the foam and both bogies fell off :(
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/109/660-190521175325.jpeg)
Easy enough to clip back, but not a great start. Here's a video of the power car running, 0-50% throttle one way then the other. I think it sounds OK and seems to run smoothly enough on the rollers. Need to run it in now.
https://youtu.be/J0Pk4HhOgxM (https://youtu.be/J0Pk4HhOgxM)
Cheers, Mark.
Doesn't click though :)
This is what they should sound like. It also shows what happens when you let a five year old loose at the controls.
hi trainfish
lewis hamilton would be proud to drive your 800 sounds like an f1 car
paul
hope i didn't get mine from where you got yours mines a lner when it comes
I just checked the Kato release schedule (https://www.katomodels.com/schedule) (Japanese, page display can be changed to English) and noticed the release date for the Azuma version (10-1674) has slipped to June. The order of items listed on the page seems to indicate the approximate sequence in which products will be released, and the Azuma is quite far down the June list.
Finally my supplier has agreed to take it back. I still don't like their tone though after sending them 3 videos of it.
"If you believe this to be fauly we can get this back and take a look, as such I have allocated a replacement for you. In the meantime we will test this replacement and compare once yours come back"
Maybe I'm reading into this too much but it still sounds like they don't believe it to be faulty (or fauly as they typed it) and will "compare" it with another. Let's just hope they don't "compare" it with another faulty unit.
I will be seriously considering using a different supplier in the future if this is what happens with faulty goods.
Being cynical they could just wait for yours to arrive then send it back to you saying the replacement was just as good/bad. Sorry, but I'd have had my money back and bought elsewhere so there no chance of the above happening. :hmmm:
Quote from: Trainfish on May 20, 2021, 11:43:19 AM
Finally my supplier has agreed to take it back. I still don't like their tone though after sending them 3 videos of it.
"If you believe this to be fauly we can get this back and take a look, as such I have allocated a replacement for you. In the meantime we will test this replacement and compare once yours come back"
Maybe I'm reading into this too much but it still sounds like they don't believe it to be faulty (or fauly as they typed it) and will "compare" it with another. Let's just hope they don't "compare" it with another faulty unit.
I will be seriously considering using a different supplier in the future if this is what happens with faulty goods.
I recognise that wording.
Rails sent me a "NEW" model that had been clearly a customer return and they had missed the fact that the centre tender wheel was jammed, with a flat spot :goggleeyes:. IT took three emails and several phots to get a reluctant replacement.
They're being given a chance to rectify it. If they do as you say then it will go back and I'll never return to them as a customer again. They will lose out in the long run. Not that they seem to care though. Just in May I have spent over £600 with them so far and there's 11 days left, that's a lot of business to lose.
I have bought from the three usual box shifters Rails, Hattons and Model Railways Direct and additionally a few items from Kernow. Had some issues with items from Hattons and Model Railways Direct with regards to poor running or damage and had a very good response for a replacement or a refund, no push back at all.
To date, I have not had to try and return anything to Rails, but the experience stated here is a concern, hopefully it has been a good move to pre-order my LNER 800 from Hattons!
[gmod]Please can we not speculate on involvement with any retailer until/if @Trainfish (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=262) decides to name and shame. It is hardly fair to any business to be suspected groundlessly[/gmod]
Hello all,
Some good news re the wrongly moulded interior for the composite car, which has the 2+1 first class seating at the standard end, and the 2+2 standard seating at the first class end...
My understanding is that this has been corrected by Kato and that only the first batch of GWR models are affected. The LNER Azuma variants next month, and subsequent deliveries of GWR models, will have the correct interior.
For those (including me) who were supplied with the wrong interior spares are being sent from Japan and these will be sent out FOC in due course to those who have faulty models. Those who are nervous about making the switch themselves can send the car off to be corrected, though it is incredibly easy, since all the parts just unclip and clip back together, there's no gluing or soldering involved.
BUT PLEASE REFRAIN from contacting your dealer for a replacement just yet. Enough are being supplied to provide a replacement for anyone who might want one, but they are not here yet and won't be for about another month.
More detailed instructions about who to contact will come once the parts are here, and I will be sure to relay them onto this forum.
cheers
Ben A.
Thanks, Ben, especially as I wouldn't have known any different owing to it being far too modern for me to know anything about it. :dunce:
Quote from: Newportnobby on May 22, 2021, 02:12:33 PM
Thanks, Ben, especially as I wouldn't have known any different owing to it being far too modern for me to know anything about it. :dunce:
@Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) You do know that the seats are upholstered now (after a fashion :-)) so no more splinters from those wooden slatted benches.
Why has no one ever pointed out to Dapol that the seats in their MkIII second class coaches are wrong. You never get 2nd class seats lined up with windows for one, and you get airline seats too.
Well done Kato.
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on May 22, 2021, 03:51:30 PM
Why has no one ever pointed out to Dapol that the seats in their MkIII second class coaches are wrong. You never get 2nd class seats lined up with windows for one, and you get airline seats too.
I believe they are correct for 'as build' HST stock at least...
Given that each operator refurbished to their own specification arrangement and (increased) capacity, it's probably not realistic to expect Dapol to have tooled different seating layouts to go with every different livery produced...
P.S. what's that got to do with the Kato 800 anyway...
Quote from: PLD on May 22, 2021, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: Bob G on May 22, 2021, 03:51:30 PM
Why has no one ever pointed out to Dapol that the seats in their MkIII second class coaches are wrong. You never get 2nd class seats lined up with windows for one, and you get airline seats too.
I believe they are correct for 'as build' HST stock at least...
Given that each operator refurbished to their own specification arrangement and (increased) capacity, it's probably not realistic to expect Dapol to have tooled different seating layouts to go with every different livery produced...
P.S. what's that got to do with the Kato 800 anyway...
The original Mk3 second class coaches had 72 seats and the seating bays did not align exactly with the windows. An extra row was inserted each side of the central partition as this photo shows:-
https://live.staticflickr.com/520/20152927819_ff4e4cd20b_b.jpg
In some ways it is good that Kato are correcting their Class 800 seating mould, though it can't have a beneficial effect on the profitability of the project. They'll need to add some of the other liveries sooner rather than later.
Quote from: PLD on May 22, 2021, 05:15:41 PM
Quote from: Bob G on May 22, 2021, 03:51:30 PM
Why has no one ever pointed out to Dapol that the seats in their MkIII second class coaches are wrong. You never get 2nd class seats lined up with windows for one, and you get airline seats too.
I believe they are correct for 'as build' HST stock at least...
Given that each operator refurbished to their own specification arrangement and (increased) capacity, it's probably not realistic to expect Dapol to have tooled different seating layouts to go with every different livery produced...
P.S. what's that got to do with the Kato 800 anyway...
Simply that Dapol "made do" with the first class seating in second class, while Kato issued the wrong seating and then set out to fix it.
It's like watching the "Have I got News for You" odd one out round, but there are only two options, not four :)
Bob
But they didn't. They're 2+1 in First and 2+2 in standard, like the real thing. Still not about the 800 though. We can have a 21 page discussion on the errors Dapol made with the mk3s easily, but this isn't it.
Quote from: njee20 on May 22, 2021, 06:13:18 PM
But they didn't. They're 2+1 in First and 2+2 in standard, like the real thing. Still not about the 800 though. We can have a 21 page discussion on the errors Dapol made with the mk3s easily, but this isn't it.
Ha ha, point taken. But @woodbury22uk (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1599) is still right about the airline seats, which was my original grumble.
It's a new and pleasant experience for me, that the first I hear of a problem is from the manufacturer and if that isn't efficient enough they've got the solution in hand!
Did I hear Dapol mentioned?! I hope they're reading this. I recall when Dapol messed up the bogie frames on their early 66s - I had to buy the correct frames!
Quote from: RailGooner on May 22, 2021, 07:51:30 PM
It's a new and pleasant experience for me, that the first I hear of a problem is from the manufacturer and if that isn't efficient enough they've got the solution in hand!
Did I hear Dapol mentioned?! I hope they're reading this. I recall when Dapol messed up the bogie frames on their early 66s - I had to buy the correct frames!
Dapol did supply the 9F front bogie fix but I had to buy new bogies for the first B set coaches they made. The back to backs were well off on the originals and the axle design was not suited to any adjustments.
And as for Farish split gears....
Bob
Bob
Quote from: Ben A on May 22, 2021, 02:05:55 PM
Hello all,
Some good news re the wrongly moulded interior for the composite car, which has the 2+1 first class seating at the standard end, and the 2+2 standard seating at the first class end...
My understanding is that this has been corrected by Kato and that only the first batch of GWR models are affected. The LNER Azuma variants next month, and subsequent deliveries of GWR models, will have the correct interior.
For those (including me) who were supplied with the wrong interior spares are being sent from Japan and these will be sent out FOC in due course to those who have faulty models. Those who are nervous about making the switch themselves can send the car off to be corrected, though it is incredibly easy, since all the parts just unclip and clip back together, there's no gluing or soldering involved.
BUT PLEASE REFRAIN from contacting your dealer for a replacement just yet. Enough are being supplied to provide a replacement for anyone who might want one, but they are not here yet and won't be for about another month.
More detailed instructions about who to contact will come once the parts are here, and I will be sure to relay them onto this forum.
cheers
Ben A.
Well done, Kato, for correcting the error - I'm now really looking forward to owning a miniature Azuma for my birthday treat
https://youtu.be/cQc68QbPHBk
Very happy with my 800... can't wait to see the Azuma..
Cheers, Timmo
In case anyone is waiting for the GWR special set, I have been informed today, by 'Rails', that it is now in stock.
Further to the above, I received an email from Rails on Saturday evening, basically saying that they did not receive enough units, so were waiting on further supplies before they could despatch my order. They got a polite email back basically saying that David was not impressed, especially as my Bank have 'ring fenced' the money! >:(
:hellosign:
Today,
the LNER version has released in Japan.
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.1999.co.jp%2F10741650&h=AT2foM63JNYBvOOCfXFyEvCnvjNPCs_qABbRWTGb7_CeyDUCsa3PTs9TWPyWbQjz95hK-ZOeSY-s7rfnwkhhtxQOMAeipwc02dAitGTuNc_OvvC4ygw_hsCQd6CP&s=1 (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.1999.co.jp%2F10741650&h=AT2foM63JNYBvOOCfXFyEvCnvjNPCs_qABbRWTGb7_CeyDUCsa3PTs9TWPyWbQjz95hK-ZOeSY-s7rfnwkhhtxQOMAeipwc02dAitGTuNc_OvvC4ygw_hsCQd6CP&s=1)
Marco
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 22, 2021, 05:35:11 PM
.. They'll need to add some of the other liveries sooner rather than later.
While I recognise this is an essential livery for those modelling modern ECML (https://www.railpictures.net/photo/773163/), I don't foresee (safely distanced) queues at the shops!
Quote from: dannyboy on May 31, 2021, 11:53:27 AM
Further to the above, I received an email from Rails on Saturday evening, basically saying that they did not receive enough units, so were waiting on further supplies before they could despatch my order. They got a polite email back basically saying that David was not impressed, especially as my Bank have 'ring fenced' the money! >:(
You described this as a GWR Special Set. What makes it special? I didn't know the Rails ones were any different to anyone elses?
I had Hattons walk away from a pre-order last month. I have inferred that was because Hornby were holding back supplies so they could sell online and cut out the middleman.
This is not the case here, but there should be some constraint on how many pre-orders a shop will take. The only loser in both instances is the consumer.
Bob
The 'GWR Special Set' is my wording. It is a Gaugemaster set which, apart from the train itself, the box contains a Kato controller and an oval of Unitrack. Sorry for any confusion.
Incidentally, the set is already appearing on eBay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kato-GM2000103-GWR-Class-800-IET-Premium-Train-Set-N-Gauge-/334018376885?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=Cj0KCQjwktKFBhCkARIsAJeDT0hjhrXJYHSr_c50Oj2dGZAO2xdv1qsI1n75kKWJrEDuyeQSNffkERMaAvfcEALw_wcB (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kato-GM2000103-GWR-Class-800-IET-Premium-Train-Set-N-Gauge-/334018376885?var=0&mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338268676&toolid=10044&customid=Cj0KCQjwktKFBhCkARIsAJeDT0hjhrXJYHSr_c50Oj2dGZAO2xdv1qsI1n75kKWJrEDuyeQSNffkERMaAvfcEALw_wcB)
Quote from: RailGooner on May 31, 2021, 01:49:20 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 22, 2021, 05:35:11 PM
.. They'll need to add some of the other liveries sooner rather than later.
While I recognise this is an essential livery for those modelling modern ECML (https://www.railpictures.net/photo/773163/), I don't foresee (safely distanced) queues at the shops!
I think that looks excellent!
I got the Gaugemaster set last week, from Train Trax. I imagine RoS just didn't get enough to fulfill their pre-orders, so yours will be in the second batch. Just one of those things surely? The only shame is that the train isn't in a proper Kato bookset, rather just in a plain (open topped) box within the large box. So there's no efficient way to store it.
Hello all,
I do not know whether it is a factor in this case, but bear in mind that at the time Kato realised the error in the composite car only the first 1000 GWR sets had been shipped to the UK.
The remaining GWR and all the LNER sets have been corrected but this caused their arrival to be delayed slightly.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: RailGooner on May 31, 2021, 01:49:20 PM
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 22, 2021, 05:35:11 PM
.. They'll need to add some of the other liveries sooner rather than later.
While I recognise this is an essential livery for those modelling modern ECML (https://www.railpictures.net/photo/773163/), I don't foresee (safely distanced) queues at the shops!
Electra has just released vinyls for the Class 802 in TransPennine Express livery. I have contacted Hull Trains with regard to obtaining permission and the artwork for the bodyside stripes but not heard anything back as yet.
Next to appear on the real railway are the all-Electric Class 802 units for the First Group ECML Open-Access operation and then Avanti West Coast versions.
Quote from: dannyboy on May 31, 2021, 01:55:08 PM
The 'GWR Special Set' is my wording. It is a Gaugemaster set which, apart from the train itself, the box contains a Kato controller and an oval of Unitrack. Sorry for any confusion.
Incidentally, the set is already appearing on eBay.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kato-GM2000103-GWR-Class-800-IET-Premium-Train-Set-N-Gauge-/334018376885? (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kato-GM2000103-GWR-Class-800-IET-Premium-Train-Set-N-Gauge-/334018376885?)
this is the best ( and unattributable) link (all code after the ? identifies the original email source!)
https://www.1999.co.jp/10741650? (https://www.1999.co.jp/10741650?)
That's the LNER set, from Japan, what's that got to do with the quoted post, which relates to the 'set' of the GWR one...? ???
This (https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10741650) is a better URL for Hobby Search, as it's not in Japanese ;)
Here's my little contribution..
(https://scontent.fbhx3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/193150306_436911387395752_3490342042795503482_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_eui2=AeGZ9j77IH7COqT7urN28W33F4GNSz9aCdkXgY1LP1oJ2YyJa_SO25Nv4_XnzgFM_AQ&_nc_ohc=vQnrIdya4tgAX89Eqb9&_nc_ht=scontent.fbhx3-1.fna&oh=0f2e2983e402f76af1f527786ab7daab&oe=60D9A25D)
Now available here:
https://electrarail.co.uk/class-800--series-inter-city-express-bi-mode-units-4464-p.asp (https://electrarail.co.uk/class-800--series-inter-city-express-bi-mode-units-4464-p.asp)
that looks really good Adam
no,
that looks really really good Adam
I've just seen that Hattons say that the decoder pack is "due in stock October 2021"! So if you have a DCC layout you can't run it until October?
Is this correct?
Any other options?
Zimo MX605N and MX605FL.
Out of stock at Coastal DCC but may be available elsewhere.
Regards,
John P
My GWR set from Rails was delivered with the Kato DCC chips, so they have been available.
They come in Gaugemaster boxes, so maybe try those suppliers first.
Cheers, Mark.
Quote from: jpendle on June 02, 2021, 12:51:18 AM
Zimo MX605N and MX605FL.
Out of stock at Coastal DCC but may be available elsewhere.
Regards,
John P
On seeing the previous message I went to Coastal and bought the last Zimo ones ;D
Pretty poor to have such a big gap, but I guess that's Kato underestimating the demand for DCC. Further proof their proprietary system is stupid, if understandable from their side.
EBay are listing LNER sets on sale in Japan :claphappy: :claphappy: won't be too long before they arrive on these shores :claphappy: :claphappy:
though CR Signals are offering sound-fitted versions on pre-order https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164892879165?epid=3046896123&hash=item266461a93d:g:phQAAOSwV9JgtfWB (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/164892879165?epid=3046896123&hash=item266461a93d:g:phQAAOSwV9JgtfWB)
Quote from: Vonzack on June 02, 2021, 01:15:41 AM
My GWR set from Rails was delivered with the Kato DCC chips, so they have been available.
Hopefully there'll be some for the pre orders then as I've pre ordered an LNER starter set and decoder pack at the same time.
Quote from: marco neri on May 31, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
:hellosign:
Today,
the LNER version has released in Japan.
Here's one I acquired earlier today :D:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220412333_211fdc72a8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220197826_1c333d82e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m39Uk5)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m39Uk5) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on FlickrVery nice model, I am quite taken with the colour scheme, which is unusual for post-privatization liveries.
Quote from: railsquid on June 02, 2021, 03:06:17 PM
Here's one I acquired earlier today :D:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220412333_211fdc72a8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Right that's it! I am sold so I model around North West England and of course LNER don't run there but TPE did hire one of their sets for crew training purposes which ran as far as Huddersfield, so using that very tenuous link I am getting one to occasionally appear on my layout for said crew training!
Quote from: Trainfish on May 20, 2021, 12:19:54 PM
They're being given a chance to rectify it. If they do as you say then it will go back and I'll never return to them as a customer again. They will lose out in the long run. Not that they seem to care though. Just in May I have spent over £600 with them so far and there's 11 days left, that's a lot of business to lose.
My 'replacement' (according to my supplier) GWR power unit should be with me on Thursday. Here's hoping it's a quiet one :uneasy:
Quote from: railsquid on June 02, 2021, 03:06:17 PM
Quote from: marco neri on May 31, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
:hellosign:
Today,
the LNER version has released in Japan.
Here's one I acquired earlier today :D:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220412333_211fdc72a8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220197826_1c333d82e6_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m39Uk5)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m39Uk5) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Very nice model, I am quite taken with the colour scheme, which is unusual for post-privatization liveries.
Simply fantastic!
Marco
Quote from: railsquid on May 16, 2021, 12:42:39 PM
Quote from: davidinyork on May 16, 2021, 12:38:26 PM
Is it normal for Japanese models to be supplied with track to display them on?
This is the first time I've seen it with a bookset like this; usually only display/commemorative models (e.g. Tomix's "First Car Museum (https://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/firstcarmuseum.html)" range) come with display track.
For the record, the LNER set I purchased in Japan did not come with any track (which was a bit of a relief as I have no need for any more Unitrack).
Beautiful model, Ian. Now you can duplicate just about every pic in that book mag I reviewed not long ago!
Why do the coach lighting units come as a pack of six when its only a five coach train
Bart
Quote from: 1936ace on June 03, 2021, 02:18:59 AM
Why do the coach lighting units come as a pack of six when its only a five coach train
Bart
Like the Kato DCC decoders for the Class 800, the lighting units are just a standard Kato part, sold individually or in a six pack. Kato trains come in all sizes from one car up to 10 or more. Buy 6 x Class 800s and 5 x 6 lighting units will be just right, or buy 5 x 1 lighting units for one train.
Quote from: railsquid on June 02, 2021, 03:06:17 PM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220412333_211fdc72a8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
I know I refer to multiple units as 'multi coloured worms' but the Azuma livery gives it more the look of a snake.
Nurse.
Nurse!
Quote from: Trainfish on June 03, 2021, 12:29:29 AM
Quote from: Trainfish on May 20, 2021, 12:19:54 PM
They're being given a chance to rectify it. If they do as you say then it will go back and I'll never return to them as a customer again. They will lose out in the long run. Not that they seem to care though. Just in May I have spent over £600 with them so far and there's 11 days left, that's a lot of business to lose.
My 'replacement' (according to my supplier) GWR power unit should be with me on Thursday. Here's hoping it's a quiet one :uneasy:
Arrived as promised today and it is
very quiet so far. Now I just need to see/hear how quiet it is when I actually run it this evening :thumbsup:
It does look like a replacement as opposed to a repaired unit too.
Quote from: acko22 on June 02, 2021, 11:09:36 PM
Quote from: railsquid on June 02, 2021, 03:06:17 PM
Here's one I acquired earlier today :D:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220412333_211fdc72a8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t)
Kato Hitachi Class 800 (LNER "Azuma") (https://flic.kr/p/2m3b16t) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Right that's it! I am sold so I model around North West England and of course LNER don't run there but TPE did hire one of their sets for crew training purposes which ran as far as Huddersfield, so using that very tenuous link I am getting one to occasionally appear on my layout for said crew training!
I know that the only difference between the CL800 and CL802 is an uprated diesel engine and larger fuel tanks. Looking at some images on the web I can't see if there is any visible difference externally between the classes. Can anyone confirm if this is the case?
If they are the same then Captain Electra;s new graphics will make a TPE CL802.
Regards,
John P
I have just succumbed to a GWR set from Rails and the vinyls from Adam. Really looking forward to both the LNER and TPE sets running on 'Leefield & Ashpeth.
Cheers,
Ged.
Quote from: rusticged on June 03, 2021, 05:28:39 PM
I have just succumbed to a GWR set from Rails and the vinyls from Adam. Really looking forward to both the LNER and TPE sets running on 'Leefield & Ashpeth.
Cheers,
Ged.
So am I looking forward to seeing them run on Leefield & Ashpeth
Tested my replacement power car this evening.
Firstly on a rolling road up to full speed which equates to around 250mph. Still a little louder than I would like but a 'nicer' noisy than before:
Then as a full 5-car set, again at full speed around 250mph:
And finally I compared it against another Kato, the TGV and a Dapol GWR HST. This time at a scale speed of 125mph:
Sounds pretty similar to the TGV and the microphone on the iPhone is very sensitive. I guess this is as good as it gets and it sounds much better in real life to be fair :thumbsup:
Hi John,
That sounds better.
In terms of the noise, I would suggest that the drive train of the rolling road itself possibly amplifies the noise slightly, as the model is lifted off the track and there will inevitably be some vibration in the supports.
cheers
Ben A.
I think you're right Ben. There are also extra points of contact of metal to metal which no doubt doesn't help and could cause the vibration which you mention. The main thing on the rolling road is that the motor speed/sound doesn't waver now as I think I showed previously. And the coupling doesn't wobble around either.
As it has been sorted out I don't see a need to name and shame the supplier. However, if they had agreed initially to replace it then I would now be singing their praises as it was a manufacturer fault, not a supplier fault.
I'm sure at 250 mph the real thing would make a hell of a noise
My GWR class 800 "starter set" arrived yestrday and I'm very happy with it. I was a bit worried after reading of John's problems but the train runs like a dream. Here's a quick snapshot:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/2874-040621191212-1104001608.jpeg)
I have one question though, regarding another object I found in that set:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/2874-040621191213-1104211515.jpeg)
What's this giant Q-tip? My son assumed it could be a very uncomfortable nose swab :confused1: :worried: :smiley-laughing:
Any ideas? Is it a track cleaner?
Best,
Michael
Quote from: mika on June 05, 2021, 09:17:25 AM
I was a bit worried after reading of John's problems but the train runs like a dream.
I think mine was a bit of a one-off Michael and I certainly didn't intend to set any alarm bells off. Sorry if I did. There are bound to be 1 or 2 defective units as with all things (and people) in life and my replacement is fine. I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as much as I'm going to enjoy mine :thumbsup:
Sorry, I can't help on the nose swab as I didn't receive one in the 'basic' set but it certainly looks bigger than those in my COVID test kits :goggleeyes:
Quote from: Trainfish on June 05, 2021, 09:43:08 AM
I think mine was a bit of a one-off Michael and I certainly didn't intend to set any alarm bells off. Sorry if I did. There are bound to be 1 or 2 defective units as with all things (and people) in life and my replacement is fine. I'm sure you'll enjoy yours as much as I'm going to enjoy mine :thumbsup:
No worries. It's just when you buy from abroad it's always such a hassle to return it...
I'm happy that it worked out for you in the end.
Quote from: Trainfish on June 05, 2021, 09:43:08 AM
it certainly looks bigger than those in my COVID test kits :goggleeyes:
I honestly hope so :confused1:
kato 800 lner from plaza rail £130 plus postage rates of between £13 and £26 ??????? although im waiting on mine from widnes
im tempted into a 2nd ... not sure about customs thou
paul
Just wanted to add some better pictures:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/2874-050621164916-1104692179.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/2874-050621164918-1104752480.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/2874-050621164916-110472790.jpeg)
It really is a lovely train :)
Any ideas regarding the nose swab (see post #471)?
Cheers,
Michael
Quote from: mika on June 05, 2021, 09:17:25 AM
What's this giant Q-tip? My son assumed it could be a very uncomfortable nose swab :confused1: :worried: :smiley-laughing:
Any ideas? Is it a track cleaner?
Correct, track cleaners (https://www.hs-tamtam.co.jp/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/483990/s/te-503-te-503-10/). Handy for reaching into inaccessible locations.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51226661571_1e42e5af22_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m3J2LX)
large-track-cleaners (https://flic.kr/p/2m3J2LX) by Rail Squid (https://www.flickr.com/photos/railsquid/), on Flickr
Thanks, Ian.
That's a relief :D
Got my GWR set this week and couldn't be happier! Big shoutout to Kato! :laughabovepost:
Given the official minimum radius of 282 mm, I bought it for the shelf. To my delight, the set negotiates R1 without problems or strange noises. Setrack points are no issue either. S-curves, however, are and should be avoided. Even short straights between curves don't fix this: R1/22 mm/R1 will not work reliably.
That aside, Kato made a very promising debut. I wonder what comes next! :)
Rails says LNER Azuma now delayed until late June or early July "due to a issue with the design of the seating on the model"
https://railsofsheffield.com/news/articles/3990-class-800-2-lner-azuma
And Hattons say -
Due June 2021
5-car 800209 in LNER 'Azuma' livery
5-car 800021 in GWR green (re-stock)
Rails are stating on their site that the LNER livery is expected tomorrow.
I have received an email from Rails today stating that my GWR Gaugemaster set has been dispatched. (Ref reply #435). :thumbsup:
Keith at Train Trax sent me an invoice half an hour ago for my Kato LNER 800.
Paid immediately....will sit by the front door awaiting the postman as from tomorrow morning onwards! :)
Alec.
I've had payment taken for my LNER Azuma so fingers crossed for delivery early next week (means the other half doesn't notice... :-[ )
Ditto...I've had to fess up to the Azuma, as Andrea works for LNER. I need an extra unit for all the vinyl ideas I have going on.
Those TPE vinyls are worrying my wallet, very much toying with a second unit just to fit them!
The conversation in the captainelectra household starts of with -
"Andrea, I need to buy another 800 set as I need something to stick the new vinyls on" ................
That's pretty much how I justify my purchases...."Development models" :)
In fairness, my GWR set is now half TPx and half Hull Trains. I'm working on the Hitachi demo livery for 800002, so need a second unit anyway...honest.
I have completed Adam's TPE vinyls on my GWR set and they look fantastic. I took some photos yesterday, at Morpeth, to confirm the colour for the ends of the coaches and to see what colour is needed on the roof. Looks as if it is mainly weathering on the roof.
Then Azuma arrives on Saturday!! Yahoo
Cheers,
Ged.
Quote from: captainelectra on June 10, 2021, 08:45:08 PM
That's pretty much how I justify my purchases...."Development models" :)
...
Can you maybe claim the tax back then? ;)
Quote from: rusticged on June 10, 2021, 09:35:13 PM
I have completed Adam's TPE vinyls on my GWR set and they look fantastic. I took some photos yesterday, at Morpeth, to confirm the colour for the ends of the coaches and to see what colour is needed on the roof. Looks as if it is mainly weathering on the roof.
Then Azuma arrives on Saturday!! Yahoo
Cheers,
Ged.
Well we must be getting close to another video then Ged.
cheers
Graham
Hi Graham
I am busy compiling a video on the history of DRS in N Gauge form but I will sort out a short video to include the 800 and the 802 when I have finished the models.
Take care and stay safe,
Ged.
Rails have shipped my LNER AZUMA 800
Just found out Kernow have shipped my LNER, now have to wait for them to ship the decoders so I can run them at our next club night.
May have to get another one to convert to TPE having seen Adam's ( @captainelectra (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9) ) post. will have to see how the budget holds up.
A few thanks ......
1. Kato. They announced this model in 2019 and told us they'd deliver it May/June 2021 and were as good as their word.
2. Keith@Train Trax. Processed my pre-order and delivered to me in less than 48 hours.
3. Jack. He posted a very helpful link about decoder fitting recently.
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=54046.msg712694#msg712694 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=54046.msg712694#msg712694)
I only run DCC and I've fitted a good number of 6 pin and 18 pin decoders. This however is my first Kato loco and although I've successfully completed the task I have to say I found it awkward. The Kato leaflet makes absolutely no reference to fitting decoders. Train Trax supplied me with the Gaugemaster/Kato decoders and the diagrams are of very little use especially since the text is all in Japanese.
One downside to running DCC is having to take a brand new model to bits straight out of the box. My experience is that with any new model there is a learning curve on how best to take it apart. I found a couple of videos on YouTube stating how easy it is to "wiggle" the body off. Mine came 90 per cent off before springing out of my fingers then obeying the laws of gravity until it rested on the floor complete with both glazing strips which had bounced a couple of inches further on. :o
One of the videos then insisted it was also necessary to remove a bogie and a drive shaft since the motor decoder has to slide underneath (it isn't). Another video showed the uploader saying he'd fitted the front and rear lights decoders but for the moment either had reds at both ends or nothing at all! He clearly had one of the decoders the wrong way round or even upside down.
Anyway, mine's done now I'm glad to say and the model looks a million dollars. The presentation case is superb, the 800 appears very good value for money and for the moment I feel a lot of confidence in the build quality of the model. It rolls along superbly and takes the Kato advised minimum radius 282mm curves without complaint. Because of the length of the cars it does look a little inelegant though because of the overhang.
Alec.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/5868-120621164305-1107651757.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/5868-120621164249-1107621195.jpeg)
Finally got mine (GWR) today and managed to run it around my layout after learning the stranded Warship blocking the line (see unhappy thread ;) ). Wow, this is a really good model. Couplings are nice and clever. Close coupled on straights but extend around curves, so it handles my tightest corner (282mm) without worrying about it and it's got enough weight and smooth enough bogies to run over point work at express speed without derailing. Handles slow speeds nicely too.
Definitely worth the hassle I had importing it :)
My GWR Gaugemaster set finally arrived today as well. I have to agree with @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8) - lovely model and runs superb. Problem is, this is what has come to be expected from Kato so it was not a surprise. ;). There were some extra straight pieces in the box as well, maybe it was a free gift from 'Rails' for the inconvenience they caused me :hmmm:.
Quote from: dannyboy on June 14, 2021, 03:41:53 PM
My GWR Gaugemaster set finally arrived today as well. I have to agree with @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8) - lovely model and runs superb. Problem is, this is what has come to be expected from Kato so it was not a surprise. ;). There were some extra straight pieces in the box as well, maybe it was a free gift from 'Rails' for the inconvenience they caused me :hmmm:.
its for display - we all got some!
The Gaugemaster set includes the M1 oval of track, and I presume in this case a couple of extra straights on top of that. My set only included the M1 set.
Quote from: Railwaygun on June 14, 2021, 04:32:32 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on June 14, 2021, 03:41:53 PM
My GWR Gaugemaster set finally arrived today as well. I have to agree with @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8) - lovely model and runs superb. Problem is, this is what has come to be expected from Kato so it was not a surprise. ;). There were some extra straight pieces in the box as well, maybe it was a free gift from 'Rails' for the inconvenience they caused me :hmmm:.
its for display - we all got some!
Except for sets purchased in Japan.
there is a good fitting guide here (from NGF) Thanks to @Jack (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=689)
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=54046.msg712694#msg712694 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=54046.msg712694#msg712694)
https://www.tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html (https://www.tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html)
It's not Jack's guide, he simply found it. It's also nothing to do with the NGF... isn't Tramfabriek @Sven (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6993) ?
Quote from: njee20 on June 14, 2021, 04:48:56 PM
It's not Jack's guide, he simply found it. It's also nothing to do with the NGF... isn't Tramfabriek @Sven (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6993) ?
And I felt it could do with another broadcast!
Quote from: Railwaygun on June 14, 2021, 04:32:32 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on June 14, 2021, 03:41:53 PM
My GWR Gaugemaster set finally arrived today as well. I have to agree with @zwilnik (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=8) - lovely model and runs superb. Problem is, this is what has come to be expected from Kato so it was not a surprise. ;). There were some extra straight pieces in the box as well, maybe it was a free gift from 'Rails' for the inconvenience they caused me :hmmm:.
its for display - we all got some!
As I understood things, if you just bought the 5 car set, you got the display track, whereas if you bought the Gaugemaster pack, you got the M1 oval of track and no display track. But I am not complaining. :)
My LNER 800 arrived Monday.
Sadly part of the red transfer on one of the power cars is missing where the white LN of LNER is located.
Have asked questions of Rails who supplied the box set. Will advise outcome.
:veryangry: :veryangry:
Mine just arrived today! Had to double check the power cars based on that. But mine seem fine. Like the little inclusion of track though not sure how much use it is for me.
Quote from: gc4946 on May 14, 2021, 04:49:38 PM
Quote from: osborns on May 14, 2021, 03:28:20 PM
to those of you who have not had Kato Locos (EMU's) before I would be interested in your opinions of the way the sets are presented and packaged.
I'll comment when I receive my LNER Azuma set.
My set arrived today ...
It's well presented with card slip case in book format but the foam packing is a bit tight in places.
I accidentally dislodged the plastic pantograph from its base when replacing one of the carriages in the foam tray. Fortunately it clipped back in!
However some trimming back of the foam may be useful especially at the ends, because I can foresee the angled inter-carriage insulators attached to the inner ends could snap off with repeated packing and unpacking.
The Kato track in the train pack (not the set) consists of 3 x 248 mm long sections, 1 x 186 mm section and a bufferstop. Including track makes the boxed set wider than A4 size.
The size of the box including slip case is 32 cm tall x 27 cm wide x 3.5 cm deep (rounded up to the nearest 0.5 or 1 centimetre)
A silly question perhaps but I can't seem to find out! Are the unit numbers different between the Kato and the Gaugemaster sets?
Quote from: Red Onion on June 15, 2021, 06:58:26 PM
A silly question perhaps but I can't seem to find out! Are the unit numbers different between the Kato and the Gaugemaster sets?
If the Gaugemaster sets had a different Kato product number, there might be differences, but they're the same two sets (10-1671 and 10-1674) available everywhere. Looking at the Gaugemaster page for the LNER version (10-1674) (https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/kato-british-brand5/kato-k10-1674.html) the running number for the prototype set is listed as "800 209", which is the same number as on the side of the Kato set I purchased in Japan.
That's great, thank you. Had just been wondering as looking at options for running a ten car set.
Quote from: Red Onion on June 16, 2021, 07:33:30 AM
That's great, thank you. Had just been wondering as looking at options for running a ten car set.
Hi
I think the set with the oval of track has a different running number but of course is more expensive.
Cheers
Paul
Thanks Paul, that's what I wasn't sure of. Could be expensive getting that along with a GWR one. Glad SWMBO doesn't get to see my bank account... :-[
Quote from: PaulCheffus on June 16, 2021, 09:25:59 AM
Quote from: Red Onion on June 16, 2021, 07:33:30 AM
That's great, thank you. Had just been wondering as looking at options for running a ten car set.
Hi
I think the set with the oval of track has a different running number but of course is more expensive.
GWR set with track: https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/catalog/product/view/id/74788/s/gaugemaster-gm2000103/ (https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/catalog/product/view/id/74788/s/gaugemaster-gm2000103/)
GWR set without track: https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/kato-british-brand5/kato-k10-1671.html (https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/model-railways/kato-british-brand5/kato-k10-1671.html)
Both noted with running number 800 021
Hello all,
I checked this with Gaugemaster. All the running numbers in every set/pack are the same: 800021 for GWR models and 802209 for LNER models.
cheers
Ben A.
Hi
I was going by this in the instructions
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/982-160621104928.jpeg)
Obviously I misinterpreted it
Cheers
Paul
I'd noticed that too and likewise, misinterpreted it.
Thanks to all for the answers.
The consensus seems to be that Kato have done a great job with the 800.
Looks great (both liveries) runs well, good price. Whats not to like?
Dear Mr. Kato,
I would like to buy more of your British outline models. My first choice would be a class .......
:) Over to you chaps!
Alec.
I saw both versions in the display case at Gaugemaster on Saturday. They really do look superb, the LNER version in particular.
Modelling European N, I will stick to admiring them on other people's layouts, but I was tempted!
Quote from: Red Onion on June 16, 2021, 10:53:02 AM
I'd noticed that too and likewise, misinterpreted it.
I think you and Paul jumped to a logical conclusion. Why show those numbers if they are not available, after all?
If you want to mix Azumas up a bit I will have a livery pack for LNER 800104 with Celebrating Scotland vinyls available soon. I realise that 800104 is a 9-car set in real life but it will give a little variety.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/9-160621125123.jpeg)
My printer has just decided to run out of cyan ink, so I can't print this until tomorrow :(
The first video for Dilymic Field is in the final editing stage. It will be uploaded to Youtube later this afternoon and I will add the link. The reason I mention this is that the first video shows the Kato 800 'GWR' on test on the new layout.
Addit: Here is the video showing the 800 on test.
https://youtu.be/3b3CLkpHYfo
I have added a couple of new IET lines to the website this evening:
Prototype set 800002 with Hitachi branding (both ends different)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/9-170621222213.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/9-170621222258.jpeg)
LNER Tartan "Celebrating Scotland" graphics for Kato Azuma (a mere fiver) - I know this should really be on a 9-car set but it looks great.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/110/9-170621222057.jpeg)
You are really causing my bank manager concern... ;)
Hi All
Received my LNER version today, very well made model with perfect fit and finish, beautifully presented packaging, runs nice and smooth, great price.
It has been a long time since I received a new model that I have not required to glue a bit back on or straighten some bit of detail, other manufacturers take note on Kato's ability with regards to quality control.
I think the only point of improvement could have been printing some of the finer details on the bodies.
Hopefully we will see more models from Kato soon.
:thumbsup:
Hi All
How do you uncouple the cars on the 800, following the instructions by pulling the cars apart on a straight track is clearly likely to break something, I have tried with reasonable force and they will not uncouple. I can get them to separate by carefully laying the set on its side pushing up the ends of the cars up, but this goes against the instruction stating not to twist the cars, any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
I have put mine on the track and taken it off a couple of times following the instructions and all worked fine. the couplings are the same as the replacement ones I use on the Eurostars, you just have to be firm with them, a quick tug was all it took.
I agree. Just pull them apart whilst still on the track. You may feel a little resistance but that's understandable otherwise they would be coming apart by themselves whilst running. Don't lift the ends up to uncouple.
Thanks Guys
I tried again but this time with a little jolt rather than a steady pull and this seems to work. I wanted to be very careful not to break something.
:thumbsup:
Hi All
I have put a short video together showing the Azuma and a TPX Class 802 which has been converted using the ElectraRail vinyls. I also run 2 Azumas coupled together.
Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/6wEaLix0z60
Cheers,
Ged.
B
Quote from: rusticged on June 21, 2021, 04:20:22 PM
Hi All
I have put a short video together showing the Azuma and a TPX Class 802 which has been converted using the ElectraRail vinyls. I also run 2 Azumas coupled together.
Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/6wEaLix0z60
Cheers,
Ged.
Brilliant video, Ged. Mind if I link to it from the Electra website and FB Page?
No Problem Adam. Go ahead. Cheers, Ged.
Got my LNER starter set, which is great. The train looks awesome and I'm very impressed with the Kato track and controller which at last has given me a test track for other stuff.
No decoders though, and it does sound like it will be an October ETA for them. Don't want to wait that long to run it on the main layout, so I've managed to get a motor decoder on its own, which should be with me in a few days. My question is, will it cause any problems running the train without the directional light decoders?
Mark
we have the Kato light decoders but a shortage of motor decoders.
Quote from: rusticged on June 21, 2021, 04:20:22 PM
Hi All
I have put a short video together showing the Azuma and a TPX Class 802 which has been converted using the ElectraRail vinyls. I also run 2 Azumas coupled together.
Here is the link:
https://youtu.be/6wEaLix0z60
Cheers,
Ged.
Another smashing video Ged. Thanks for sharing.
cheers
Graham
Quote from: Hightower on June 21, 2021, 10:44:43 PM
My question is, will it cause any problems running the train without the directional light decoders?
Probably not but you would have both red and white lights on at the same time and they could be very bright depending on your track Voltage.
Assuming you can't track some down then I'd slip some paper or thin between the electrical contacts so they don't work.
Steven B.
There does seem to have been an underestimation of how many of these will run on DCC. I was looking around last week for my Azuma and bought an ICE4 decoder pack. Just need to pull my finger out and load the Youchoos sounds on it!
Cheers Colin
Agreed Colin. From my view, both the models and decoders seem to be selling really well. I wonder what Mr Kato's view is like?
Also waiting for my decoders, just been told by Kernow they are waiting on Gaugemaster to deliver.
Have the 2 800's but can't run them on the layout, only the test track.
I seem to recall reading (maybe in this very thread) that DCC is nowhere near as popular in Japan as it is in the UK so it's reasonable to surmise the demand has caught people on the hop. Let's hope the lesson has been learnt for the next UK outline model from Kato which folks will want (Mr. Kato!!!)
Quote from: Hightower on June 21, 2021, 10:44:43 PM
Got my LNER starter set, which is great. The train looks awesome and I'm very impressed with the Kato track and controller which at last has given me a test track for other stuff.
No decoders though, and it does sound like it will be an October ETA for them. Don't want to wait that long to run it on the main layout, so I've managed to get a motor decoder on its own, which should be with me in a few days. My question is, will it cause any problems running the train without the directional light decoders?
Mark
For safety's sake to run on DCC without lighting decoders, turn off the switch under each driving cab car as you would if running the unit as a ten car set with no lights on the centre two driving cab cars. Information is in the instructions under the section on running in multiple.
Quote from: Shropshire Lad on June 22, 2021, 09:05:48 AM
There does seem to have been an underestimation of how many of these will run on DCC.
I wonder :hmmm:
Based on the numbers that have been bandied about here and elsewhere.
Production run of 10k, of which 1k destined for the UK market.
Let's guess that 50% will be run on DCC, so that's 500.
There's at least two brands of decoder, Kato & Zimo, so that's 250 per brand max.
These decoders can only be used in Kato models, so if I were a decoder manufacturer I wouldn't be rushing to produce hundreds of these when my Next18, 6 pin, Plux 22, etc, decoders will sell in much larger quantities.
I'm sure more decoders will get built but they'll more likely be built to order rather than speculatively.
Regards,
John P
understand the economics, but i still want my two sets of decoders. I can run at home but not at the club as that is DCC only, and I want to show them off.
Also there may be more from either manufacturer as I understand the same set also fits the Kato ICE sets.
Perhaps some enterprising little company will produce a Kato to Next18 converter for them. Looks like it should be doable.
Anyone fried a decoder yet, I know one of the YouTubers I follow has had one die already, anyone else ?
NGM
I managed to kill one of the Zimo headlight decoders trying to get it sitting correctly to work in both directions....
All three decoders went in and work ok. Can't find the function number for operating the "Welding up the cracks" sounds though ::) ::) ::)
Cheers Colin
i'll worry about the decoders when i can finally take delivery of mine, have a nice static display at the moment.
Very interesting to get a LNER one of these, a return to Hattons from a certain Youtuber, with supposedly shorting lights that'd blown their decoder.
Fixed in less than a minute, the problem was a displaced rocking wiper contact piece in the offending car, presumably then shorting the decoder. Put it back in place, everything back to as it should be, and all lights working fine.
In terms of the debates on cost, etc etc....maybe one factor is that Kato have used a 3 pole (yes....three pole) motor in this. It does partly explain why sleeper creep isn't at all great - a 40 year old 3 pole non-skew wound Farish can creep better..... hopefully with running in that will improve*....
...that may also explain some of the strange pulsing observed on DCC that has been reported by two on Youtube I've seen - a 3 pole extreme skew wound armature is a fairly uncommon motor design in the UK market - I can think of no other model with such (skew wound yes, 3 pole yes, but not together). Tuning the PWM of a decoder output for this therefore may not be immediately obvious.
Overall model runs very nicely, looks the part, but it's very clear that despite those waxing lyrical, these are well designed but ultimately models that have far far fewer parts than Farish or Dapol, that don't bother with DCC and complex PCBs (hence the slightly heath robinson need to break the contact wiper connections as the means to install what are essentially after market decoders - clearly the Japanese market has not got the memo on NEM651 or 652, sockets, etc!), have 3 pole motors, and are made in much bigger production runs - all of which explain at a jot the price differential.
Having taken it apart, it really compares almost identically to the Eurostar, a design some 25 years older, indeed the Eurostar has a superior 5 pole motor, albeit inferior couplers (though qudos to Kato for making an update for these available for Eurostar). Build wise they are very similar of mostly plastic construction, and all clip together, nothing glued or screwed (not that I like glued, but screwed is better than clips or glue). I have to conclude really that what Farish, Dapol, Revolution are making these days is actually much more advanced - not that this is by any means a bad model. Kato are making something simply, quickly, with established design ethos, robustly and that will run likely forever; but it's certainly not cutting edge.
Overall I hope they have success with it - but I predict more returns from lighting problems in the end cars due to displaced contacts - good if you're willing to gamble that they can be put back in place, and then grab a bargain!
Cheers,
Alan
* I have a spare 5 pole Eurostar motor which looks dimensionally similar, so it may be fun to swap them at some point if it actually fits, and see the creep performance with that...
I agree that the 800s are simpler in design than some comparable products in N and if this has helped to keep the cost reasonable, then I'm all for it. Hopefully, the attractively-priced starter sets with those striking trains will encourage some younger modellers towards N. As the Hornby 5-car 800 tops out at around £450.00, it's a big thing in it's favour.
On a side note, I intend to take a look at the roof and underframe differences between the 800 and the later 802 (the subject of my TPx and HT vinyls) - the latter has extra equipment on the roof for the rheostatic brakes, which could make an interesting 3D print project.
I have to agree with Alan (and others who've said the same). It's a great model, and well priced, but I'm not for all the waxing lyrical about "this will make Dapol amd Farish take notice". There are already (rightly so) mumblings of discontent about the fact it's a 3 month wait for decoders. There are a lot of details missing which you'd expect on a Farish/Dapol/Revolution model - moulded detail rather than separately applied, unpainted detail and so on.
I've always thought the same of their US locos frankly - when I nearly bought one a few years ago I thought the detail was woeful (far worse, comparatively, than the 800), although they are mechanically very good.
Pleased to have bought one, and really pleased they're dipping a toe into the UK market, I really hope we see more, but it's not really 'upping the game' in any area IMO.
I think Kato have challenged others to 'up their game' with the short gestation time between announcement and delivery to market. BUT (big but), that's a challenge no one will pick up so it's a moot point. Can anyone genuinely compete with Kato?!
One difference Kato might effect to the UK market is that, having seen the speed with which Kato can bring a product to market, others might be more guarded about plans for new models (particularly MUs,) for fear of Kato gazumping them.
In terms of producing anywhere near a complete range of British prototypes, Kato won't compete directly with Farish; they'll have a niche, Peco and Kato in a joint venture are bringing out Festiniog 009 scale locos.
The 800/801/802s are the current state of the art express passenger units in Britain.
Surely Kato are looking at options to produce 802s and other future derivatives.
go on Adam
tell them who you latest customer is. He won't mind
regards
M
Quote from: gc4946 on June 30, 2021, 10:50:52 PM
In terms of producing anywhere near a complete range of British prototypes, Kato won't compete directly with Farish; they'll have a niche, Peco and Kato in a joint venture are bringing out Festiniog 009 scale locos.
The 800/801/802s are the current state of the art express passenger units in Britain.
Surely Kato are looking at options to produce 802s and other future derivatives.
I don't believe so, no. Haven't they said there's nothing until 2024 at the earliest, and that's predicated on the success of the first run? Given it's well publicised they expect to sell more in Japan than anywhere I think it's moderately unlikely we'll see all of the variants that people are hoping for. I'm relatively surprised they didn't do a 9-car variant.
I think any subsequent products from Kato will be other units of Japanese origin. Would love to see them do some other models, but I just can't see them doing other very-UK centric MUs like the Electrostar family, which feel like a glaring hole from the modern scene.
My feelings are similar. I have a GWR example; it's a solid if unremarkable model, although is well within what I'd consider acceptable, especially for the price.
I suspect some of the gushing over it is the simple fact that it exists. Kato have delivered an easily accessible class 800 in N, and on a relatively quick turnaround at that. I too think Kato are 'upping the game' in that sense - just getting it done. I can imagine the hesitation that Farish/Dapol might have with such a project, let alone Revolution. Not that I think it would be unreasonable - Kato obviously have the upper hand here.
If this opens the doors to more affordable British stock that may not exist otherwise I'll happily take it. Time will tell.
Quote from: osborns on June 30, 2021, 10:57:01 PM
go on Adam
tell them who you latest customer is. He won't mind
regards
M
I couldn't possible comment, except to say that some Azuma vinyl sets are heading home :)
It's nice to see a bit of realism in the thread.
I'm glad that Kato have done these units, and even happier that they've been done to 1:148 scale.
But I'm sceptical that this will lead to any more UK outline Kato models.
More UK outline Hitachi products? Perhaps.
Anything else? Probably not, but I'd love to be proved wrong.
At least Zimo make suitable decoders, but not enough by the sounds of things :D
John P
I think Kato will continue to look at models that appeal to both the UK and Japanese markets and would make a good box set.
Im a tad more hopeful given their continental range and recent additions of the Glacier Express and ICE4, none of which have a Japanese connection. I'm sure the connection helps to some degree but clearly it isn't a requirement.
I suspect that they would look to more "exciting" or "iconic" trains first such as the 395, but who knows what data and insight they garner from this.
Kato are bringing out two OO9 locos in conjunction with Peco
Quote from: Intercity on July 01, 2021, 04:45:47 PM
It seems many people think this will be a one off from Kato, I am curious as to why, is it because it's a newer train in real life? Because it is similar to current Japanese models? Because the demand may not always be there for other models?
Because it clearly has the Japanese market in mind, as evidenced by the lack of standard DCC sockets.
I would be delighted to see more from Kato, and if they choose modern MU's then so much the better, but I'm not holding my breath.
John P
One additional comment - folks have praised Kato (rightly) that time from announcement to delivery was suitably small. This is something of course we all have longed for from Bachmann, Dapol for years.
But, for context again, it's again not unique - Bachmann have moved to their 3 month announcements, and indeed we had exactly that with the new EFE range from them - 3 months from announcement to delivery of the Claytons and others. Everything Farish they have announced on this 3 month rota has generally arrived in that time (I forget if a few were delayed a little due to covid, but surely that's excusable). As such, Kato doing similar is fairly unspectacular - it just feels spectacular as Bachmann are still generally mopping up the mess of previous announcements even a year or so after moving to the 3 month thing! I think this will change though as the mopping up gets completed, and we will start to see more complete new toolings arrive with only 3 months between announce/delivery. Indication is that this is coming with some special things for Farish's 50th year.
No criticism of Kato - just reeling in a little of the potential for hyperbole on this one.
Cheers,
Alan
The EFE JIA wagon was announced a year ago, with nothing since, so not quite, but yes, they're doing much better at short gestation periods.
Quote from: BertFredStan on July 01, 2021, 04:40:16 PM
Im a tad more hopeful given their continental range and recent additions of the Glacier Express and ICE4, none of which have a Japanese connection. I'm sure the connection helps to some degree but clearly it isn't a requirement.
The Glacier Express was a tourist souvenir, as it's a huge destination for Japanese tourists. Clearly it was more popular than anticipated given they have developed it into a range including far less glamorous models. The ICE is an iconic model, like the TGV, and I'm sure is again popular with the domestic market.
I find it interesting that even when you see big Japanese layouts they tend to consist of large Unitrack-esque setups, with huge amounts of track, minimal scenery and loads of long units zooming around at top speed. I'm sure people do do the 'branch line terminus' thing, and focus on realism, but it doesn't seem as popular from what I've see. No doubt that dictates what is popular.
Quote from: Intercity on July 01, 2021, 04:45:47 PMRemember Kato are a huge player in the US model railroad scene, yes I'm aware that they may be able to shift more product in the US, but an SD40, GEVO or SD70Ace are nothing like anything Japanese (that I'm aware of), so if Mr Kato thinks there may be a viable market then I'm sure we will see future models (he seems fond of producing multiple units though, except in the US, which would be nice to see)
I'm not sure that's really comparable since Kato has its own subsidiary in the US (unsurprisingly called Kato USA), and I would imagine that most of the US models are designed/requisitioned by their full time US based staff. Kato has no such equivalent presence in other markets, so it can probably be assumed that any UK models won't have their own dedicated design or research team, and therefore be competing for internal resources with their Japanese & European products.
Yeah I'd be truly astounded if that happened. Kato USA got into a much larger market, in two scales, a long time ago. IMO the UK market is far too crowded for them to really make a go of it in line with their USA offering.
Perhaps "Kato Europe" would be more viable, but I still can't see it.
Going back to the 800 model, has anyone tried fitting the optional interior lighting kit? Looks to be Kato K11-211, and would be interested to know how effective this is - again Kato's approach here is somewhat different to Dapol's light bars (multiple LEDs as compared Kato, which appears to be only one). Price is slightly less than Dapol's light bars at £8.50 a set.
Cheers,
Alan
If I remember correctly (and I wouldn't swear to this) Kato USA came about because Mr Kato set it up after studying in the USA.
A large chunk of Kato's European models are produced for Lemke.
Quote from: GlenEglise on June 14, 2021, 10:47:45 PM
My LNER 800 arrived Monday.
Sadly part of the red transfer on one of the power cars is missing where the white LN of LNER is located.
Have asked questions of Rails who supplied the box set. Will advise outcome.
:veryangry: :veryangry:
Great news, my replacement LNER 800 AZUMA arrived today from Rails of Sheffield.
Looking good, many thanks guys.
:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
Quote from: njee20 on July 01, 2021, 09:00:17 PM
Yeah I'd be truly astounded if that happened. Kato USA got into a much larger market, in two scales, a long time ago.
Hi all,
Mike is right. Hiroshi Kato, the current President and son of the company's founder Yuji Kato, went to college in the US and told us that while there he became convinced that Kato should enter the US market. Kato USA has its own premises in Illinois and appears to be a fairly independent operation.
I was interested to note that the original publicity material for the Class 800s incorprated 'Kato British Railways' branding (with a logo reminsicent on the BR totem) suggesting that the company was not just producing a one-off, however this seems to have been quietly dropped on the models themselves, which feature standard 'Kato - Precision Railroad Models' branding.
If I had to predict what Kato would offer next I think they'd be looking at what might sell in Japan too, and if not a Class 395 (the only other Japanese train I can think of) then maybe something world famous such as Mallard, Flying Scotsman or even Rocket, perhaps in a train pack with some coaches.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on July 01, 2021, 11:38:59 PM
Mike is right. Hiroshi Kato, the current President and son of the company's founder Yuji Kato, went to college in the US and told us that while there he became convinced that Kato should enter the US market. Kato USA has its own premises in Illinois and appears to be a fairly independent operation.
From my amateur observations, the Kato US range is not widely available in Japan apart from the small selection of "iconic" sets which are actively marketed here. Most of the rest is usually available in the small selection of shops which specialise in foreign models.
Quote from: Ben A on July 01, 2021, 11:38:59 PM
If I had to predict what Kato would offer next I think they'd be looking at what might sell in Japan too, and if not a Class 395 (the only other Japanese train I can think of) then maybe something world famous such as Mallard, Flying Scotsman or even Rocket, perhaps in a train pack with some coaches.
Again, just my subjective opinion, but those are not particularly well-known in these parts, and apart from the Rocket are available anyway in some form or other anyway. I could see them doing a Rocket equivalent of the Minitrix "Der Adler" set (which I see pop up on local auctions and go for quite high prices), but apart from other Japanese-designed/built multiple units I can't see what UK outline stuff there is which a) hasn't been done already; b) would be attractive for the Japanese market (though I suppose Kato could market something to attractiveness) and c) is the kind of stuff which Kato does well (i.e. mainly multiple units, because that's a massive part of the market in Japan).
There certainly is a model of Rocket in the Kyoto Railway museum....
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/255-040519050415-769751220.jpeg)
.... and even Locomotion no 1!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/76/255-040519050415-769751858.jpeg)
Quote from: railsquid on July 02, 2021, 12:57:17 AM
Again, just my subjective opinion, but those are not particularly well-known in these parts, and apart from the Rocket are available anyway in some form or other anyway. I could see them doing a Rocket equivalent of the Minitrix "Der Adler" set (which I see pop up on local auctions and go for quite high prices), but apart from other Japanese-designed/built multiple units I can't see what UK outline stuff there is which a) hasn't been done already; b) would be attractive for the Japanese market (though I suppose Kato could market something to attractiveness) and c) is the kind of stuff which Kato does well (i.e. mainly multiple units, because that's a massive part of the market in Japan).
Hi there,
Wow - I didn't realise Mallard and Flying Scotsman are not well known in Japan - I honestly assumed they were world famous.
I agree that unit trains in packs are Kato's core offer in which case I think the most likely scenarios would be more of the Hitachi AT300 family with some tooling amendments to recreate TPE, Hull Trains, EMR and Avanti variants of the Class 8XX design or the South Eastern Class 395s.
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Ben A on July 02, 2021, 06:32:33 AM
Wow - I didn't realise Mallard and Flying Scotsman are not well known in Japan - I honestly assumed they were world famous.
I suspect if you did a survey even amongst enthusiasts and asked them to identify those locos, people would be more likely to come up with "Spencer" and "Henry"...
Again, this based on my subjective unscientific observations, but in Japan, the main overseas countries of interest as far as model trains go are the US and Germany, everything else is pretty niche. Though on the other hand if Kato decides to market something eyecatching, it'd probably sell. Now there's an idea - a nice blue Coronation Scot set :D
Oooh yeah! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Dr Al on July 01, 2021, 11:02:25 PM
Going back to the 800 model, has anyone tried fitting the optional interior lighting kit? Looks to be Kato K11-211, and would be interested to know how effective this is - again Kato's approach here is somewhat different to Dapol's light bars (multiple LEDs as compared Kato, which appears to be only one). Price is slightly less than Dapol's light bars at £8.50 a set.
Cheers,
Alan
The K11-211 is a single unit, it is cheaper to buy K11-212 which has 6 light units plus diffusers that you wont need. I got mine from Plaza Japan, JPY3100 or £27.10 including the non sterling transaction fee. Fitting invovles removing the body shell, sliding in two contact strips per unit and fitting the light unit. There is a pictorial instuction sheet which is reasonably easy to follow. The power car lights are dimmer than the others for some reason. The rest do flicker except for one car which is at a constant brightness.
Something to be investigated in the winter.
Geoff
Quote from: Ben A on July 01, 2021, 11:38:59 PM
If I had to predict what Kato would offer next I think they'd be looking at what might sell in Japan too, and if not a Class 395 (the only other Japanese train I can think of) then maybe something world famous such as Mallard, Flying Scotsman or even Rocket, perhaps in a train pack with some coaches.
Only One other Japanese Train as far as I am aware, the ScotRail Class 385 AT200.
Being critical, despite in my wishlist, there is only one livery (ScotRail) and 2 variations: All standard class 3 car 385/0 and first class fitted 4 car 385/1 (First being located in one of the Driving cars requiring a different interior in addition to the extra coach).
(If I was a betting man I would put some money on a further variant. Hitachi have been very busy trying to convince ScotRail and the appropriate authorities how easily and quickly they could produce a Battery version of the 385. Meanwhile the next round of Scottish electrification includes some scheme which will require Bimode or Battery Units. Cynically I believe certain announcements are being help back to nearer the COP26 climate change conference later in the year.)
I agree Variations such as TPE, Hull Trains and Avanti hopefully will be considered.
My understanding is that the East Midland 310 is shorter than the rest of the 80x trains which probably makes it no more or less likely than the 395/385.
If Kato has confidence in the Sales of the 800 to follow it up with more variations or other Hitachi models they could keep themselves busy for some time to come.
| Class | Operator | Built | cars | Power | Name | Notes |
| 385/0 | ScotRail | 46 | 3-car | Electric | - | AT200 |
| 385/1 | ScotRail | 24 | 4-car | Electric | - | AT200, First class |
| 395 | Southeastern | 29 | 6-car | Dual-Voltage | "Javelin" | |
| 800/0 | GWR | 36 | 5-car | Bi-mode | "IET" | Modeled by Kato |
| 800/1 | LNER | 13 | 9-car | Bi-mode | "Azuma" | |
| 800/2 | LNER | 10 | 5-car | Bi-mode | "Azuma" | Modeled by Kato |
| 800/3 | GWR | 21 | 9-car | Bi-mode | "IET" | |
| 801/1 | LNER | 12 | 5-car | Electric | "Azuma" | |
| 801/2 | LNER | 30 | 9-car | Electric | "Azuma" | |
| 802/0 | GWR | 22 | 5-car | Bi-mode | "IET" | Uprated Engines vs 800 |
| 802/1 | GWR | 14 | 9-car | Bi-mode | "IET" | Uprated Engines vs 800 |
| 802/2 | TPE | 19 | 5-car | Bi-mode | "Nova 1" | |
| 802/3 | Hull Trains | 5 | 5-car | Bi-mode | "Paragon" | |
| 803 | East Coast Trains | 5 | 5-car | Electric+Battery | - | |
| 805 | Avanti West Coast | 13 | 5-car | Bimode | - | |
| 807 | Avanti West Coast | 10 | 7-car | Electric | - | |
| 810 | East Midlands Railway | 33 | 5-car | Bimode | "Aurora" | 24m (80x are 26m) |
Quote from: geoffc on July 02, 2021, 09:04:35 AM
The K11-211 is a single unit, it is cheaper to buy K11-212 which has 6 light units plus diffusers that you wont need. I got mine from Plaza Japan, JPY3100 or £27.10 including the non sterling transaction fee. Fitting invovles removing the body shell, sliding in two contact strips per unit and fitting the light unit. There is a pictorial instuction sheet which is reasonably easy to follow. The power car lights are dimmer than the others for some reason. The rest do flicker except for one car which is at a constant brightness.
Something to be investigated in the winter.
Geoff
Thanks Geoff, some useful insight. Plaza seem cheap compared to our box shifters who are doing the 212 set for £40. If I may be so bold - is there any chance you may be able to do photos of the lights in action?
In other events - it's going from the mundane to the ridiculous - I've now heard of no less than 4 failed DCC fits on these, all of the same symptoms of head/tail lighting not working. It's becoming clear that it's very easy to mess up a DCC fit and snag or displace the rocker wipers that do the contacting to the chips when they are slid into their housing, in the worst cases blowing them by sending 16V AC where it isn't meant to go. My first one was stated working on DC, so the DCC fit is what messed it up.
So as a result I've another set with wonky lights heading my way....hopefully similarly easy to correct! May have a spare set of decoders for anyone, that I won't need if they are tested working after correcting the previous owner's mess.
Also obtained a bag of coupler upgrades for Eurostar, which will be interesting to try - I am intrigued as to whether the design is actually strong enough to tow a full length set (which is heavy!) as the actual force is all transmitted via a rather tiny little surface on the back of the clip on the coupler...
Cheers,
Alan
I have replaced the couplings on my Eurostars with the new replacement couplings you mention Alan, They are the full 20 coach length and have had no issues at all, even running them at full scale speed on the club layout.
In other events - it's going from the mundane to the ridiculous - I've now heard of no less than 4 failed DCC fits on these, all of the same symptoms of head/tail lighting not working. It's becoming clear that it's very easy to mess up a DCC fit and snag or displace the rocker wipers that do the contacting to the chips when they are slid into their housing, in the worst cases blowing them by sending 16V AC where it isn't meant to go. My first one was stated working on DC, so the DCC fit is what messed it up.
So as a result I've another set with wonky lights heading my way....hopefully similarly easy to correct! May have a spare set of decoders for anyone, that I won't need if they are tested working after correcting the previous owner's mess.
Alan
[/quote]
Have these units been fitted with 8 decoders in total, as I understand it the end cars have 2 decoders one for the interior lights and one for the nose lights, two for the power car one for the lights and one for the motor the other two cars have one each for the lights?
I will try and upload some photos of the interior lights in action but I find great difficulty in doing it.
Geoff
Further to Alan's comments on the class 800 (see reply #547) I tend more to the Luddite so my criteria for being pleased/not pleased are:-
Was it something I really wanted out of my modelled era?
Was it a reasonable price?
Did it look like what it was meant to look?
Did it arrive as per the original announcement?
Did it run smoothly/quietly straight from the box?
Was I impressed with my purchase?
All the above were answered with a resounding 'Yes'
In my case, DCC and sound are just bells and whistles so not of interest at all.
I just wish some others would get these basics right.
Thank you, Dave for the list of IET classes. I'm certainly going to be busy in the future with the East Coast and Avanti variants. I'll probably do vinyls for the 810, even though it's a completely different unit.
The Hull Trains set is probably the one I'm most proud of, thanks to HT letting me use the original artwork.
Quote from: Graham on July 03, 2021, 03:05:16 AM
I have replaced the couplings on my Eurostars with the new replacement couplings you mention Alan, They are the full 20 coach length and have had no issues at all, even running them at full scale speed on the club layout.
I don't doubt it - I just find the design rather mechanically interesting, and wonder how much they flex under that load. As long as the plastics don't decay with age then they should be fine.
I have fitted a set to my Eurostar yesterday, but haven't had the opportunity to try the full length train yet.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: geoffc on July 03, 2021, 09:16:23 AM
Have these units been fitted with 8 decoders in total, as I understand it the end cars have 2 decoders one for the interior lights and one for the nose lights, two for the power car one for the lights and one for the motor the other two cars have one each for the lights?
The set I've seen, no - it was the 3 decoders (one drive, two for head/tail lights) that folk had botched (evidenced by the fact they stated it worked on DC, which it didn't after they'd botched decoder installs).
Second unit still to arrive, but symptoms are the same, so I suspect the same diagnosis will prove true.
Quote from: geoffc on July 03, 2021, 09:16:23 AM
I will try and upload some photos of the interior lights in action but I find great difficulty in doing it.
Many thanks Geoff.
Cheers,
Alan
I pootled along to the Kato HQ shop on the Squidcycle earlier today (it was drizzling and I didn't feel like going further afield) and noted this display in the entrance:
(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/kato-entrance-display_1.jpg)
with a rather bucolic English countryside scene (I imagine Miss Marple is investigating a 1:148 murder in one of those houses):
(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/kato-entrance-display_2.jpg)
Also a nice selection of Class 800 spares:
(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/kato-class-800-spares.jpg)
The Peco zone on the second floor:
(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/kato-peco-display_1.jpg)
with a rather dog-eared copy of the December 2019 Railway Modeller:
(https://japan-train-blog.infogogo.com/static/misc/kato-peco-display_2.jpg)
I'm not sure what Miss Marple is doing but that quintessential Englishman Mr Bean certainly appears to passing through
And that house to the left of Mr. Bean looks like something 'Metcalfe' would produce as a kit. ???
Quote from: dannyboy on July 04, 2021, 11:51:55 AM
And that house to the left of Mr. Bean looks like something 'Metcalfe' would produce as a kit. ???
That's because it is!
I've slightly toned down the coach ends and roofs on my 800 with a thin air brush of dirty black. It's quite subtle but it takes the "unpainted plastic" look away.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/111/3123-040721172138.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=111369)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/111/3123-040721172217.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=111370)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/111/3123-040721172250.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=111371)
Kato have produced a video on how to change over the GWR Class 800 interiors in the composite car which came with the wrongly oriented moulding.
https://youtu.be/dPbIcQtq6kU
So how do we go about getting replacement seat units for the composite coach please?
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: pape_timmo on July 07, 2021, 03:30:38 AM
So how do we go about getting replacement seat units for the composite coach please?
Cheers, Timmo
Just phone Gaugemaster
Quote from: pape_timmo on July 07, 2021, 03:30:38 AM
So how do we go about getting replacement seat units for the composite coach please?
Cheers, Timmo
I e-mailed Gaugemaster with a copy of the sales receipt and received my replacement seating unit, special delivery, two days later. Excellent service.
Just a thought - if you are modelling the TransPennine Class 802, would it be possible to cut both seating units in half to make an all-standard coach?
Thank you gents, email sent to Gaugemaster.
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: Chris Morris on July 07, 2021, 06:20:55 AM
Quote from: pape_timmo on July 07, 2021, 03:30:38 AM
So how do we go about getting replacement seat units for the composite coach please?
Cheers, Timmo
Just phone Gaugemaster
Even if purchased from other vendor?
Yes - mine was purchased from Colletts Models.
I think that Gaugemaster are Kato's UK distributor.
Regards,
John P
I believe Train Trax also Import (but I don't think they distribute), I don't know who you'd contact in the instance you've bought from them.
Hi guys,
I just emailed Gaugemaster this morning with a cooy
Of my order from Rails, and had a reply this afternoon saying the interior had been despatched. Great service.
Cheers, Timmo
I know the above comments have been about GWR sets, however wondered if LNER Azuma sets were also afflicted?
Quote from: GlenEglise on July 08, 2021, 12:38:52 AM
I know the above comments have been about GWR sets, however wondered if LNER Azuma sets were also afflicted?
The LNER sets were stated to have been corrected by Kato prior to shipping.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on July 08, 2021, 12:54:08 AM
Quote from: GlenEglise on July 08, 2021, 12:38:52 AM
I know the above comments have been about GWR sets, however wondered if LNER Azuma sets were also afflicted?
The LNER sets were stated to have been corrected by Kato prior to shipping.
Cheers,
Alan
Many thanks Dr Al.
Sets my mind at rest.
If you don't know that there's anything incorrect by looking at your set is it something you need to worry about...?
Quote from: njee20 on July 08, 2021, 01:35:27 AM
If you don't know that there's anything incorrect by looking at your set is it something you need to worry about...?
:hellosign:
Short answer no, I am happy as pig in :poop: with my GWR set
stay safe regards Derek
I'm happy with mine but I'll ask for a replacement anyway. If you think about it the Japanese are very honourable people. Mr Kato found a mistake and as a matter of honour he has sent corrected interiors over here. I'm sure he would be insulted if people didn't take up these replacement parts he has sent over.
:hellosign:
Fair comment Chris, :thankyousign:
stay safe regards Derek
I would never have noticed but thought I may need a spare due to potential future vandalism by the Bristol City fans travelling home from yet another defeat. Sorry @port perran (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=230)
I emailed my supplier, not Gaugemaster, yesterday and today they have said "I will get you some replacements in the post for you". Maybe they're anticipating a heavy defeat :D
I'm very happy with my set, and wouldn't have know had it not been for earlier comments on here, but as a replacement is available, I'm happy and grateful to Kato for making them available and for being upfront about it.
Top marks to Kato and Gaugemaster as their distributor for doing this.
Cheers, Timmo
After mailing them, Rails have confirmed my replacement inner will be with me mid next week. I may as well have it as not, and full marks to Kato for dealing with this quickly.
Quote from: Trainfish on July 08, 2021, 10:31:40 PM
I would never have noticed but thought I may need a spare due to potential future vandalism by the Bristol City fans travelling home from yet another defeat. Sorry @port perran (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=230)
I emailed my supplier, not Gaugemaster, yesterday and today they have said "I will get you some replacements in the post for you". Maybe they're anticipating a heavy defeat :D
Yep, looks like a heavy defeat is on the way:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/111/262-100721135237-1115801415.jpeg)
I'll leave it up to the experts to tell me which coach or coaches to put them in. Either that or I'll tuck them away in the drawer for a rainy day :thumbsup:
Popped into Gaugemaster earlier to collect mine, he said they have literally the exact number, so weird you're being sent spares.
That said, he said it was roughly 50% take up, with half of people just not being fussed, so there must be spares!
Quote from: Trainfish on July 10, 2021, 01:55:34 PM
I'll leave it up to the experts to tell me which coach or coaches to put them in.
Quote from: Ben A on May 22, 2021, 02:05:55 PM
Hello all,
Some good news re the wrongly moulded interior for the composite car, which has the 2+1 first class seating at the standard end, and the 2+2 standard seating at the first class end...
Ben says it's the composite car, but if you know which that is you're a better man than me, Gunga Din :dunce:
Quote from: Trainfish on July 10, 2021, 01:55:34 PM
..
I'll leave it up to the experts to tell me which coach or coaches to put them in. Either that or I'll tuck them away in the drawer for a rainy day :thumbsup:
See the Kato video linked by Mike in Reply #590 on: July 06, 2021 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44398.msg718435#msg718435).
The composite car has the short silver stripe above the windows on one end, that's the first class end. Runs behind the first class driving car with the blocked out windows (kitchen).
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: pape_timmo on July 10, 2021, 11:37:11 PM
The composite car has the short silver stripe above the windows on one end, that's the first class end. Runs behind the first class driving car with the blocked out windows (kitchen).
Cheers, Timmo
And the running number 814021 :)
:thankyousign:
Perfect, thank you. Maybe I'll write the coach number on the underside of the new seats so they can be replaced when the Bristol City fans get off :thumbsup:
2 x seating inserts received from Rails today.
There is just the one composite coach so it's really clever of Rails to know I'm a hamfisted idiot who is likely to break one in the fitting of it. :-[
I contacted Rails on Sunday evening to ask if I had the original set with the wrong seats, or, because I got a set from the second delivery, did I have the corrected seats. I received a reply Monday morning. It did not actually answer my query, but did say that they would put the new seats in the post for me. I will have a look back through the thread later, but is there an obvious clue that the carriage has the wrong seats?
Quote from: dannyboy on July 14, 2021, 12:35:15 PM
I contacted Rails on Sunday evening to ask if I had the original set with the wrong seats, or, because I got a set from the second delivery, did I have the corrected seats. I received a reply Monday morning. It did not actually answer my query, but did say that they would put the new seats in the post for me. I will have a look back through the thread later, but is there an obvious clue that the carriage has the wrong seats?
If the 2+2 seats are at the end which has the arrow on it that is the wrong seats, you will need to remove the body to see this.
Geoff
When Kevin at Gaugemaster responded to my request for a replacement seating unit he advised me "For fitting, please select product instructions (selection button lower section of (Gaugemaster) Web Page), then select Kato for the download".
There are a number of articles to do with the class 800; download the one on seating which provides clear instructions and a link to;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPbIcQtq6kU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPbIcQtq6kU)
Very easy to follow - I had the job done in about 10 minutes. Just be methodical and note that all parts have an arrow somewhere to ensure that everything is assembled in the correct orientation.
Hope this helps,
John
Hi, I was interested in the Class 800 GWR patrolling my old commuter route, but noted the limit on track radius.
Some of my sidings are on Peco radius 2 which I believe is slightly tighter than recommended by KATO, has anyone tried the class 800 on these?
I was maybe hoping it would work but at lower top speed?
Thanks
Yep, it'll be fine!
In case anyone's looking for inspiration for a scene to showcase their GWR Class 800s:
This is not a ringing advertisement for the reliability of IET.........all broken down....
Cheers,
Alan
I was waiting for a Class 43 to come in and tow them out
I think the pickups need adjusting. Probably best to send it back to Gaugemaster or wherever it came from :thumbsup:
Nobody seams to learn... Virgin's voyeur fleet have/had similar problems over the years during high seas I believe. Something to do with exposed electrics.
Anyone know when the dcc chip kits are going to make it? My layout is dcc only so I'd love to be able to run my 800s
Quote from: Jack on December 10, 2021, 05:48:48 PM
"Virgin's voyeur fleet"
:laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:
Yes, Virgin Voyagers were notorious for not going the distance.
The fault for all new fleets are that they are generally specified by the D. o T. who don't really know a lot about trains, customer requirements or operational needs.
Since the end of the "Joined up Railway" some 25 plus years ago now I cannot think of one new fleet that hasn't been met with great criticism.
GE
The Class 802s that GWR ordered later were supposed to be "Dawlish-Proof" but the earlier government-specified 800s often run over this section as well. Not sure what class of unit disgraced itself on this occasion.
At least BR engineers know enough not to put electrical components on the roof of trains that operate through salt-water spray...
I know naff all about this modern stuff although I did buy an IET.
Interesting to see they have formed 9 coach sets rather than have 2 x 5 coach sets like the one I have :hmmm:
Quote from: GlenEglise on December 10, 2021, 08:15:33 PM
Quote from: Jack on December 10, 2021, 05:48:48 PM
"Virgin's voyeur fleet"
:laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :goggleeyes: :laugh3: :laugh3: :laugh3:
Opps! :-[ Long day with extreme brain fog, didn't check auto correct. :-[ . But on the other hand it made someone smile :D
Quote from: Newportnobby on December 10, 2021, 08:48:04 PM
I know naff all about this modern stuff although I did buy an IET.
Interesting to see they have formed 9 coach sets rather than have 2 x 5 coach sets like the one I have :hmmm:
It is very confusing. LNER and GWR have a mixture of Class 800s in 5 and 9 car formations, the 5-cars being intended for less-popular destinations. In reality, you are just as likely to see a 2x5 set instead of a 9 on LNER - the recent cracking issues have caused havoc with the fleets. LNER also operate electric Class 801s, which are outwardly virtually identical to the 800s.
The 9 car sets would also require some retooling with the extra trailer cars having Voyager inside frame bogies to reduce weight.
Quote from: Spanners70 on December 10, 2021, 08:09:25 PM
Anyone know when the dcc chip kits are going to make it? My layout is dcc only so I'd love to be able to run my 800s
In the same boat, waiting on my order from Kernow, they told me they were still waiting on delivery, they had been promised Oct, then Nov, then Dec, so can only guess they will be there sometime soon, then I just have to wait for Royal Mail and Australia Post. I may be running by mid year?
Quote from: Graham on December 10, 2021, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: Spanners70 on December 10, 2021, 08:09:25 PM
Anyone know when the dcc chip kits are going to make it? My layout is dcc only so I'd love to be able to run my 800s
In the same boat, waiting on my order from Kernow, they told me they were still waiting on delivery, they had been promised Oct, then Nov, then Dec, so can only guess they will be there sometime soon, then I just have to wait for Royal Mail and Australia Post. I may be running by mid year?
Have you tried Plaza Japan? Thats where I got the light kits for mine. If I remember correctly you require eight decoders in total, one for each of nose lights, five for the interior lights and one for the motor.
Geoff
Ditto.. still never been unboxed. Just hope it actually works when the decoders finally appear.
Doesn't look like things are improving much either - some of the parts I need for electronics projects are still quoting over a year lead time.
Quote from: GlenEglise on December 10, 2021, 08:20:10 PM
Since the end of the "Joined up Railway" some 25 plus years ago now I cannot think of one new fleet that hasn't been met with great criticism.
That'll be the "joined up Railway" that gave us Pacers and Sprinters that didn't work very well when first introduced? Or Duke of Gloucester that was very poor at steaming until preservationist got their hands on it?
The whole of railway history is littered with locomotives that had problems when first introduced - half of Rocket's competitors at the Rainhill Trials didn't make it to the end of the line so problems with new rolling stock isn't a new thing!
Steven B.
I can't think of many BR fleets that worked out of the box when introduced apart from some of the later Mk3 units, such as the 320 and 321. York Works would churn these out like a sausage machine, the new unit would have a run down to Peterborough and back a couple of times and straight into service.
The 225s, Networkers and 323s were far more problematic, requiring a much longer lead time. Not a patch on the woes affecting the new Class 701s and 730s though.
Quote from: Steven B on December 12, 2021, 05:40:06 PM
Quote from: GlenEglise on December 10, 2021, 08:20:10 PM
Since the end of the "Joined up Railway" some 25 plus years ago now I cannot think of one new fleet that hasn't been met with great criticism.
That'll be the "joined up Railway" that gave us Pacers and Sprinters that didn't work very well when first introduced? Or Duke of Gloucester that was very poor at steaming until preservationist got their hands on it?
The whole of railway history is littered with locomotives that had problems when first introduced - half of Rocket's competitors at the Rainhill Trials didn't make it to the end of the line so problems with new rolling stock isn't a new thing!
Steven B.
Oooo, you are right, not a new thing.
Quote from: geoffc on December 11, 2021, 10:10:39 AM
Quote from: Graham on December 10, 2021, 11:03:04 PM
Quote from: Spanners70 on December 10, 2021, 08:09:25 PM
Anyone know when the dcc chip kits are going to make it? My layout is dcc only so I'd love to be able to run my 800s
In the same boat, waiting on my order from Kernow, they told me they were still waiting on delivery, they had been promised Oct, then Nov, then Dec, so can only guess they will be there sometime soon, then I just have to wait for Royal Mail and Australia Post. I may be running by mid year?
Have you tried Plaza Japan? Thats where I got the light kits for mine. If I remember correctly you require eight decoders in total, one for each of nose lights, five for the interior lights and one for the motor.
Geoff
I got in touch with them via email and asked if they had the required dcc bits to make these run as dcc rather than the supplied dc Carnt say the reply was much use to me ! Carnt believe no one on here is running the kato 800 as dcc? Must be more than Just me with them in a box still when everything is dcc? Any ideas greatly welcomed
Japan reply "As retailers, we are not able to instruct our clients regarding usage details or specific details.
We apologize for not being able to be of your assistance regarding this matter."
@Spanners70 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5079)
It seems that all sorts of industries are crying out for some form of computerised chips, from Car Manufacturers to toy train owners, and everything in between. Shortage of roar materials apparently. I believe the mighty Apple Corporation had to cut back on production of iPhones recently for the same reason.
I run DCC and I'm in the same boat with my IET 800. I know it's not quite the same but I occasionally run my 800 on my Kato test track which is DC and bought for the purpose of testing new locos before chipping and reassembled stripped service locos prier to return to shed. A Kato pack with controller is less than a new loco.
https://www.traintrax.co.uk/20852-kato-unitrack-basic-oval-with-kato-controller-p-396.html (https://www.traintrax.co.uk/20852-kato-unitrack-basic-oval-with-kato-controller-p-396.html)
I also recently did some rewiring of my layout and put in a DC/DCC power switch so that I could at least test run on the layout if necessary. If you choose this route just be careful that you don't run a DC loco whilst the track is switched to DCC. I do realise this is not a quick job and that I can only run the 800 on the layout by itself ( or all trains move at once :worried: )
Other than that I'm afraid it's a case of patiently waiting until supplies get sorted.
Quote from: Spanners70 on December 13, 2021, 08:43:02 AM
! Carnt believe no one on here is running the kato 800 as dcc?
There are certainly folk out there with chips in their 800s. I think there are two or three different decoder manufacturers with a suitable offering for the main decoder and the function chips for the lights (isn't the Kato branded set actually made by Digitrax?)
@Invicta Alec (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5868) yours is all done isn't it?
Hi
I'm another still waiting for the decoders.
Cheers
Paul
Yes as above, there was a batch of decoders that came at a similar time as the models themselves, plus there are Zimo decoders that fit, which seemed to be available for longer. Clearly Kato underestimated the proportion of people who would want to run them on DCC. Itself not a surprise, as the low uptake of DCC in Japan is part of the reason for their daft need for a proprietary decoder. Given the modern Lemke/Hobbytrain models have NEM sockets it feels an oversight they didn't use them on the 800. But here we are!
Quote from: njee20 on December 13, 2021, 11:59:41 AM
Given the modern Lemke/Hobbytrain models have NEM sockets it feels an oversight they didn't use them on the 800. But here we are!
Ah but Hobbytrain are not necessarily all made by Kato nowadays. I think more and more are from a different source, for example the locos with a shiny/burnished split chassis block (and which have NEM decoder sockets) are not Kato product.
Fischer-Modell have stock and supply the UK, they even take PayPal.
https://www.fischer-modell.de/zubehoer/elektronik/zimo/spezialdecoder/kato-ice-spur-n/zimo-setmx605n-fuer-kato-ice4/br412-spur-n-k19050-k10951-1x-mx605n-und-2x-mx605sl (https://www.fischer-modell.de/zubehoer/elektronik/zimo/spezialdecoder/kato-ice-spur-n/zimo-setmx605n-fuer-kato-ice4/br412-spur-n-k19050-k10951-1x-mx605n-und-2x-mx605sl)
30 or so Euros extra for the sound version. I loaded Youchoos sounds in mine to get the bimode option.
Cheers Colin
Quote from: Jack on December 13, 2021, 09:29:35 AM
It seems that all sorts of industries are crying out for some form of computerised chips, from Car Manufacturers to toy train owners, and everything in between. Shortage of roar materials apparently. I believe the mighty Apple Corporation had to cut back on production of iPhones recently for the same reason.
Right now things are crazy, we are hearing from large manufacturers getting orders for 300,000 (that's three hundred thousand) IC's cancelled in favour of the 3,000,000 IC order that someone else placed. Lead times are through the roof and we can't deliver in the 4-6 weeks that used to be normal, but that's generally not a problem cos our customers can't get the other things they need either to actually make anything either!
Regards,
John P
Quote from: ntpntpntp on December 13, 2021, 10:23:21 AM
Quote from: Spanners70 on December 13, 2021, 08:43:02 AM
! Carnt believe no one on here is running the kato 800 as dcc?
There are certainly folk out there with chips in their 800s. I think there are two or three different decoder manufacturers with a suitable offering for the main decoder and the function chips for the lights (isn't the Kato branded set actually made by Digitrax?)
@Invicta Alec (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5868) yours is all done isn't it?
Yes mine is all done and runs DCC.
I had pre-ordered my 800 with Keith@traintrax and also ordered the decoder set of 3 pieces.
The decoder set came in a pair of little clear plastic boxes with Kato inlays. All the text was in Japanese which didn't help the slightly fiddly installation.
The train runs beautifully but I'm still thinking about selling it because of the work involved that I need to make to the layout to properly incorporate it (platform lengths and adjustments mainly).
Alec.
Plaza Japan have all the decoders back in stock. I've just had notification that mine have been shipped, so possibly they might arrive before Christmas (but not holding my breath).
When I ordered my 800 set from TrainTrax, I ordered the decoders at the same time, but Keith emailed me to say he had only received a small percentage of what he had ordered, so it was on a first come, first served basis. As I was late to order, I missed out!!
Quote from: Invicta Alec on December 13, 2021, 05:24:39 PM
The train runs beautifully but I'm still thinking about selling it because of the work involved that I need to make to the layout to properly incorporate it (platform lengths and adjustments mainly).
I'm not a fan of the 800s to put it mildly (I drive them and I am an HST man through and through), but I would urge you not, to sell it. Looks a fantastic model regardless of my own view on the real thing and we have plenty of places we stop where the full length of the train is not platformed - even with 5 car units. It looks great on that video.
@pinball (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=9782) ,
Thank you for your comment concerning the non-platforming of the 5 car!
Alec.
All you need is a sign.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/117/3123-181221194210.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=117412)
Those of you who know me will realise this is at Dawlish Warren. There a quite a lot of them along the up loop. They are there because class 800s do sometimes stop at Dawlish Warren and some of them are too long for the platform. They shortened the platforms back in the 1980s.
A good example of what happens is at Frome.
The 5 / 9 (and obscured 10) board in this video are all off the end of the platform at Frome (where a 5 car does not fit - but 9 coach 800s stop here daily), and show the Class 800 stopping position (the train should be stopped with the board in the side window of the cab). The on board computer has the stops programmed in, so as long as the train is stopped at the correct position the train should recognise the location and which doors will open when release is given.
(The HST boards are also off the platform and a similar procedure applied to them. HSTs with first class leading would be drawn up so the board was in the side cab window. When first class was trailing, the power car was run off. This is so the guards accommodation and van is always platformed).
It would be perfectly accurate just putting a small stop board either at the end of the platform, the platform slope or slightly off it as a stopping position. No need to do any real major work to the layout to accommodate these trains. All it needs to even be is an "S" board for all formations - these exist in a number of locations for these trains (some say S - some specify the length 5 - 10), not that I expect you are planning on running a 10 car formation. The LNER platforms use identical signage as well - but I believe some say "ALL" rather than "S".
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 18, 2021, 07:46:01 PM
All you need is a sign.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/117/3123-181221194210.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=117412)
Those of you who know me will realise this is at Dawlish Warren. There a quite a lot of them along the up loop. They are there because class 800s do sometimes stop at Dawlish Warren and some of them are too long for the platform. They shortened the platforms back in the 1980s.
And I thought this sign was an alternative to one saying No Smoking :dunce:
Quote from: mickeyflinn on December 16, 2021, 07:13:02 AM
When I ordered my 800 set from TrainTrax, I ordered the decoders at the same time, but Keith emailed me to say he had only received a small percentage of what he had ordered, so it was on a first come, first served basis. As I was late to order, I missed out!!
I ordered mine and the decoder. I've had no contact since about the decoder and |I think in the new year I'm going to simply return the model and require a refund.
No hard feelings towards traintrax but it's completely useless to me and this has gone on for too long now.
the good news, at last, is the decoders are on their way but I would expect to get our supply immediately after Christmas (first FedEx delivery after the break)
GOOD NEWS!
Just paid my invoice with Keith at TrainTrax for my DCC89 Decoder Set. :claphappy: :claphappy:
I came very close to cancelling and getting the decoders elsewhere. Glad I didn't, saved myself over £20!
Happy Days!
hopefully mine will be on their way from Kernow very shortly.
I've got the motor decoder from Zimo already, but no lighting ones. Not sure what to do now. Don't really need the full set. I've not looked closely enough to see if they do them individually.
Quote from: njee20 on December 24, 2021, 10:12:28 PM
I've got the motor decoder from Zimo already, but no lighting ones. Not sure what to do now. Don't really need the full set. I've not looked closely enough to see if they do them individually.
They do, it's the FL12 decoder. My pre order for a replacement one was completed yesterday by Hattons.
Although it isn't perfect, based on looks, performance and value I rate the Kato 800 as the model of the year for 2021.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/117/3123-251221082519.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=117679)
A note from Keith at Train Trax
I was speaking with the Sales Manager at Gaugemaster yesterday regarding these decoders which should have been available when the Class800 were released over nine months ago. Gaugemaster are packaging and distributing these in the UK. He informs me that they have just received a small quantity of the decoders which are being sent to retailers according to the date of their order I am being allocated 14 in respect of my order of December 2020 and my further orders amounting to 50 should be with me in quarter one 2022. The reason for the delay in supplying these decoders is due to the lack of microchips available.
I have checked you order and agree you have prepaid £40.00 but unfortunately there are 32 customers who have ordered before you so I will only be able to supply you when the Quarter one delivery arrives. I have attempted to obtain a supply of these decoders from my Japanese and US wholesalers, but they are in the same position, unable to supply me until the quarter one release.
And once again we're reminded of how rubbish it is when manufacturers make no real concessions to DCC, and require proprietary parts. "Oh you want to actually use your stock? Tough!".
Kato clearly aren't going to change, given their market is domestic and DCC is apparently far less popular in Japan, but why can't them just fit an NEM socket?!
Quote from: Chris Morris on December 18, 2021, 07:46:01 PM
All you need is a sign.
There were similar signs at Falkirk Grahamston Station in Scotland when the Highland Chieftain Inverness/King's Cross was a 2 + 9 for a good few years.
Quote from: Railwaygun on December 25, 2021, 12:56:59 PM
A note from Keith at Train Trax
I was speaking with the Sales Manager at Gaugemaster yesterday regarding these decoders which should have been available when the Class800 were released over nine months ago. Gaugemaster are packaging and distributing these in the UK. He informs me that they have just received a small quantity of the decoders which are being sent to retailers according to the date of their order I am being allocated 14 in respect of my order of December 2020 and my further orders amounting to 50 should be with me in quarter one 2022. The reason for the delay in supplying these decoders is due to the lack of microchips available.
I have checked you order and agree you have prepaid £40.00 but unfortunately there are 32 customers who have ordered before you so I will only be able to supply you when the Quarter one delivery arrives. I have attempted to obtain a supply of these decoders from my Japanese and US wholesalers, but they are in the same position, unable to supply me until the quarter one release.
Good news from Keith!!
Good news, I have just been allocated a further supply of Kato decoders and will be shipping yours in the next few days.
I cancelled my order at 10:30 this morning, guessing that may be his additional allocation ;D
I'm glad that you made the supreme sacrifice as my chips arrived today!
Finally I have some decoders for my 800s. But I've stuck. I've fitted the motor decoder and the headlight decoders to both end coaches. Put it on the track and great dcc control. Reprogrammed it all on the track and it has its ident and movement. But lights.. in one direction both front and back car are white, change direction there both red. How the heck do you get them correct ie one end red one end white ? It's beyond me.....and also cold in the loft to be fiddling !
Quote from: Spanners70 on January 20, 2022, 08:29:42 PM
Finally I have some decoders for my 800s. But I've stuck. I've fitted the motor decoder and the headlight decoders to both end coaches. Put it on the track and great dcc control. Reprogrammed it all on the track and it has its ident and movement. But lights.. in one direction both front and back car are white, change direction there both red. How the heck do you get them correct ie one end red one end white ? It's beyond me.....and also cold in the loft to be fiddling !
Hi
From the instructions I've seen one of the light decoders needs to be inserted a different way to the other.
https://www.tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html (https://www.tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html)
I don't have my decoders yet so I haven't been able to try mine.
Cheers
Paul
Thanks for that will try flipping one tomorrow, I got bored waiting and so bought the zimo mx605n set from dcc coastal. Bit more expensive but at least I can run the set instead of them collecting dust !
still waiting for my 2 sets from Kernow, every follow up gets the same reply, still waiting for the supply.
It's a shame we are all left wanting, if only Kato had done their research on the UK market a bit better we would all be happy.
The sets are lovely, would just like to be able to run them on the layout instead of up and down the test track.
we have had some decoder sets available for the last 2 weeks. Not sure how many we have left at the moment though.
Quote from: Graham on January 20, 2022, 10:00:55 PM
It's a shame we are all left wanting, if only Kato had done their research on the UK market a bit better we would all be happy.
I'd suggest they've done their research quite well - they've produced a reasonably detailed model at a very decent price; Surely what the majority call out for?
The trouble is, the UK is a very small part of Kato's market. I'd guess less than 10% of all the Class 800 units they've made will end up in the UK. The rest will stay in Japan where DCC is apparently very uncommon.
I am surprised that Japanese modellers haven't taken to DCC. With their love of automated toilets and vending machines that sell virtually anything you'd think it would be popular. More so if the majority of the hobby there revolves around Unitrack based layouts that can be set-up and taken down quickly.
Steven B.
Quote from: PaulCheffus on January 20, 2022, 08:37:34 PM
Quote from: Spanners70 on January 20, 2022, 08:29:42 PM
Finally I have some decoders for my 800s. But I've stuck. I've fitted the motor decoder and the headlight decoders to both end coaches. Put it on the track and great dcc control. Reprogrammed it all on the track and it has its ident and movement. But lights.. in one direction both front and back car are white, change direction there both red. How the heck do you get them correct ie one end red one end white ? It's beyond me.....and also cold in the loft to be fiddling !
Flipped one of the end coaches decoder round 180' and now works as it should , thanks for the help !
Hi
From the instructions I've seen one of the light decoders needs to be inserted a different way to the other.
https://www.tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html (https://www.tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html)
I don't have my decoders yet so I haven't been able to try mine.
Cheers
Paul
@Steven B (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3063), I do agree Kato did their research quite well, in fact for the model itself it is an excellent piece of work, it is just the DCC side which has let them down a bit. Maybe next time they will look at using a standard for the decoder fitting.
Quote from: Graham on January 21, 2022, 09:24:52 PM
@Steven B (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3063), I do agree Kato did their research quite well, in fact for the model itself it is an excellent piece of work, it is just the DCC side which has let them down a bit. Maybe next time they will look at using a standard for the decoder fitting.
Bought the Kato 800 and have had decoders on order since October with Kernow, I know they come in via Gaugemaster.
Honestly, it is a shambles, four months and no decoders!
KATO did well producing the model but totally mis-understood the use of DCC in the UK market.
Regards,
GE (Mr Angry)
as mentioned before Osborns has some spare stock
Quote from: Steven B on January 21, 2022, 08:49:24 AM
I am surprised that Japanese modellers haven't taken to DCC. With their love of automated toilets and vending machines that sell virtually anything you'd think it would be popular. More so if the majority of the hobby there revolves around Unitrack based layouts that can be set-up and taken down quickly.
Steven B.
Maybe the Japanese realise it doesn't actually add much to running trains other than cost. I have spent a lifetime working in IT but when it came down to it I chose DC over DCC for my layout simply because it suited my needs better. The main advantage of DC is that when you flick a point the loco/train in the road you have switched to is automatically live. I see this as the most important part of running my layout. Many others like DCC because of all the interesting things it can do and that's fine by me but having power move with the point is just so good.
Remember the majority of Japanese layouts aren't permanant hence the popularity of Unitrack.
Lots of the advantages of DCC disappear if you only ever have one loco/unit on the track at a time.
Plus, using a standard DCC socket would require Kato to redesign their well proven mechanism as they don't really use PCB's to go between the pickups and the motors for the most part (look at the decoder for the 800, it basically slides into place and breaks the connection between the track and the motor).
Anyhoo, any good images/videos of an LNER set with the Kato light bars fitted on DCC (without the extra decoders to control them)? Debating getting them for mine but only if they aren't overly bright cause I ain't spending the extra to get 5 more lighting decoders.
I saw a tweet from Kato this morning, indicating that a "Soundbox" equipped Class 800 is to be released.
https://twitter.com/kato_team/status/1499565398655926272?s=20&t=NMUb9_nAV2M6Dc1mVW8mbg (https://twitter.com/kato_team/status/1499565398655926272?s=20&t=NMUb9_nAV2M6Dc1mVW8mbg)
I've had to look it up - Soundbox is a DC trackside sound system that syncs with the controller - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZspASybSgnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZspASybSgnQ)
Quote from: captainelectra on March 04, 2022, 08:41:51 AM
I've had to look it up - Soundbox is a DC trackside sound system that syncs with the controller - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZspASybSgnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZspASybSgnQ)
Yes, presumably big enough in Japan but not a major phenomenon in the UK.
https://www.traintrax.co.uk/sound-cards-c-39.html (https://www.traintrax.co.uk/sound-cards-c-39.html)
That's probably why I'd not heard of it. :)
Quote from: tutenkhamunsleeping on March 04, 2022, 08:50:08 AM
Quote from: captainelectra on March 04, 2022, 08:41:51 AM
I've had to look it up - Soundbox is a DC trackside sound system that syncs with the controller - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZspASybSgnQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZspASybSgnQ)
Yes, presumably big enough in Japan but not a major phenomenon in the UK.
https://www.traintrax.co.uk/sound-cards-c-39.html (https://www.traintrax.co.uk/sound-cards-c-39.html)
I'd presume that the actual new release would be a Class-800 card for the Sound Box rather than a new version of the train as the SoundBox doesn't require any modification to the loco itself. It just uses feedback to decide what audio to play.
Quote from: Spanners70 on January 20, 2022, 08:29:42 PM
Finally I have some decoders for my 800s. But I've stuck. I've fitted the motor decoder and the headlight decoders to both end coaches. Put it on the track and great dcc control. Reprogrammed it all on the track and it has its ident and movement. But lights.. in one direction both front and back car are white, change direction there both red. How the heck do you get them correct ie one end red one end white ? It's beyond me.....and also cold in the loft to be fiddling !
Hi
At least yours work. My decoders have finally arrived and the motor control one is working perfectly. The lighting decoders don't work and I've read the https://tramfabriek.nl/kato-800.html instructions with no joy.
Lights briefly flash when the vehicle is put on the track. Both red and white lights come on without the decoder installed but nothing happens when I press F0 with it installed. I've waited over a year for these decoders and it looks like they are fault. Not impressed at all.
Cheers
Paul
Have you tried swapping them between the two driving coaches, and rechecked that they are firmly seated in the socket? Seems unlikely both decoders would be faulty.
Exactly what I was going to say, the chance of two having identical faults seem extremely unlikely.
Hi
I've taken the driving coaches apart and I can see they are seated correctly but still no lights unfortunately.
Cheers
Paul
I am still to receive my decoders, but I did read somewhere the orientation of them is different for front and rear. I will be following the steps shown on the tramfabriek site as that gives a good step by step process.
Hi
I've found the issue with my lighting decoders. It would appear they are not compatible with Railcom. As soon as I turned it off on the LVZ100 the lights worked correctly.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 03, 2022, 10:15:16 AM
Hi
I've found the issue with my lighting decoders. It would appear they are not compatible with Railcom. As soon as I turned it off on the LVZ100 the lights worked correctly.
Cheers
Paul
Hi,
I assume that you bought the Kato decoder and not the ones made by Zino?
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on August 03, 2022, 05:55:54 PM
Quote from: PaulCheffus on August 03, 2022, 10:15:16 AM
Hi
I've found the issue with my lighting decoders. It would appear they are not compatible with Railcom. As soon as I turned it off on the LVZ100 the lights worked correctly.
Cheers
Paul
Hi,
I assume that you bought the Kato decoder and not the ones made by Zino?
Regards,
John P
Hi
Yes as I didn't know Zimo did them and they were ordered about 14 months ago.
Cheers
Paul
So finally I get decoders and have hit a slight issue with the lights.
I got one set of decoders from Osbournes via a fellow modeler at my local club, and one sent from Kernow
The set from Osbournes is a kato original set the set from Kernow a Gaugemaster rebadged Kato set.
On the original set, once installed both front and rear can be turned on and off, and change direction with the direction of running,
however the rebadged set will not change direction with the direction of the running.
I have made sure CV29 has Railcom turned off.
Anyone got any ideas?
cheers
Graham
I bought myself a 3rd kato 800 the lights have me this time. On dc red one end white the other swap direction becomes red. So I know both white and red work on both front and rear carriages. Fit the dcc to the motor and the two end coaches, drives fine, one way I have red and white change direction zero and red, for the life of me I cannot get the white to work on one end with dcc but works on dc without the decoder, any one got a clue on this one please? I'm baffled why the white on dc works but on the decoder it will out the red on or off correctly but never the white but only on one end the other end is fine,
Even more baffled after a week of fiddling gave up last night still one end no white lights and went to bed. Get up this morning working find for the first time . No idea on a so,Union to help others Im afraid...
Quote from: Graham on August 21, 2022, 07:32:13 AM
So finally I get decoders and have hit a slight issue with the lights.
I got one set of decoders from Osbournes via a fellow modeler at my local club, and one sent from Kernow
The set from Osbournes is a kato original set the set from Kernow a Gaugemaster rebadged Kato set.
On the original set, once installed both front and rear can be turned on and off, and change direction with the direction of running,
however the rebadged set will not change direction with the direction of the running.
I have made sure CV29 has Railcom turned off.
Anyone got any ideas?
cheers
Graham
Hi
You need to turn off the Railcom in the command station not the decoder.
Cheers
Paul
Eh? What if you use Railcom? You're saying that for an 800 to work properly you can't use Railcom on any stock...?
Quote from: njee20 on August 27, 2022, 09:36:51 PM
Eh? What if you use Railcom? You're saying that for an 800 to work properly you can't use Railcom on any stock...?
Hi
Exactly that. The only way I could get the Gaugemaster decoders to work was to switch Railcom off on the command station. I realised this when I tried the decoders on my MERG DCC system which doesn't have RailCom.
Cheers
Paul
Wow. That's rubbish.
Hi
Yes it is and I'm lucky I don't use RailCom.
Cheers
Paul
RailCom is a parasitic protocol not in the original NMRA spec.
Digitrax decoders don't like it either.
I use Zimo loco decoders and they are fine, however my layout uses Kato points and their dedicated Digitrax decoders which just don't work if RailCom is on.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 27, 2022, 10:04:04 PM
RailCom is a parasitic protocol not in the original NMRA spec.
I think symbiotic is a kinder way to put it :D
Anyhow, Railcom is fundamentally a European invention, whether the US manufacturers will ever get around to living alongside it, let alone supporting it, is anybody's guess.
I'm using NCE Switch8's for point control and they have the same issue, luckily my layout is big enough that I needed to add a booster to my Z21. So now the booster controls the Switch8's and has Railcom switched off and my Z21 has Railcom enabled.
Don't forget that Zimo make decoders for the CL800, and they will support Railcom.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on August 27, 2022, 10:39:20 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on August 27, 2022, 10:04:04 PM
RailCom is a parasitic protocol not in the original NMRA spec.
I think symbiotic is a kinder way to put it :D
Anyhow, Railcom is fundamentally a European invention, whether the US manufacturers will ever get around to living alongside it, let alone supporting it, is anybody's guess.
I'm using NCE Switch8's for point control and they have the same issue, luckily my layout is big enough that I needed to add a booster to my Z21. So now the booster controls the Switch8's and has Railcom switched off and my Z21 has Railcom enabled.
Don't forget that Zimo make decoders for the CL800, and they will support Railcom.
Regards,
John P
As it steals slots in the data frame I prefer parasitic 8), and its the use of these slots already allocated to other functions that is the problem.
Quote from: jpendle on August 27, 2022, 10:39:20 PM
Don't forget that Zimo make decoders for the CL800, and they will support Railcom.
Regards,
John P
Hi
However that information is not a lot of use though if you've already bought the others and use RailCom.
Cheers
Paul
I'd say that's extremely useful, as I suspect those using Railcom would choose to buy a couple of new decoders rather than throw away a load of occupancy detectors rendered useless by Kato.
Quote from: njee20 on August 28, 2022, 12:06:04 AM
I'd say that's extremely useful, as I suspect those using Railcom would choose to buy a couple of new decoders rather than throw away a load of occupancy detectors rendered useless by Kato.
Hi
The problem here is the use of rebadged decoders and not knowing they are not compatible with RailCom before purchase.
Cheers
Paul
Not sure of your point anymore? If you want to use Railcom and have an 800 then the Kato badged decoders are useless. The Zimo ones are not. Telling people that it's because they didn't confirm this before is very much "ackchyually" levels of internet pedantry, particularly as this is not a common behaviour.
Quote from: njee20 on August 28, 2022, 09:12:57 AM
Not sure of your point anymore? If you want to use Railcom and have an 800 then the Kato badged decoders are useless. The Zimo ones are not. Telling people that it's because they didn't confirm this before is very much "ackchyually" levels of internet pedantry, particularly as this is not a common behaviour.
Hi
Therein lies my point it's not obvious they are not compatible before you purchase. This information has only just been found out when I tried to use the decoders on my 800 after fourteen months of waiting for them to arrive. I personally don't use RailCom and had been playing with it whilst testing a DIY RailCom reader. I had left RailCom turned on as it didn't seem to affect anything until now.
It's alright people coming along now saying they are not compatible when lots of people who may use RailCom have already bought them.
Cheers
Paul
I've just bought my second IET and I'm happy.
Just got myself another 800 but it's a noisy runner, sounds almost like a garish with a split gear. I've removed the drive shafts and still the same so it's from the motor, anyone any ideas or if I can get a replacement motor? I'm not sure how to remove the motor from the chassis to investigate further thanks all
Some of the class 800s can be abit on the noisy side, don't think it's anything to worry about I have read others who have had noisy 800s too, I have been running one for more than a year absolutely no problem at all.
I had a few Kato locomotives that ran noisy, for the most part a squeal, a touch of light oil on the motor bearings and they ran almost silent
I was wondering if anyone who was at the show in York can confirm, was a 9 car version of the 800 announced?
I wasn't there but I asked the same question and it was confirmed that it was announced in Mr Kato's presentation.
There don't seem to many details available yet though.
Regards,
John P
Its not on the Kato production schedule which seems to go up to October this year.
Hi all,
During Hiroshi Kato's talk on both days he confirmed that Kato have tooled up the additional coaches to create a 9-car Class 800 and he expected these models to be here by Spring 2024.
cheers
Ben A.
9 car IETs... nice.
Looking forward to these then...
Cheers Timmo
I need to measure my platforms. I think these will be too long though and I'll have to stick with my 2x GWR 5-car sets along with the 5-car LNER set unless I buy a bigger house.
John, there are plenty of stations on the GWR network where a 9 car cannot fit. We have automatic selective door opening for such locations. Even 5 cars can't fit on many stations on the Berks & Hants.
Cheers, Timmo
This is of course very true but I don't think there are many/any which have multiple sets of points at the ends of the stations which would stop anything else running on my layout if I have a 9-car train parked up. I definitely need a bigger house/loft.
On GWR we run 12 car Class 387s out of Paddington to Didcot and beyond.
On the Paddington Didcot stoppers we run into platform 3 at Didcot that fits 12 on, then have to shunt to the west end and wait to return into platform 4 to commence the return stopper to Paddington, but 12 cars don't fit on platform 4, so the train is foul of the points accessing the northbound Chester line curve and the route to Oxford.
One day I was working an IET from Paddington to Oxford booked to call at Didcot, and was routed into platform 3. The stopper to Paddington had been brought in early by the signaller from the west end shunt, and was waiting time, about 25 minutes away, to depart for Paddington. I was over 20 late leaving Didcot because I had to sit ans wait until the stopper had departed right time.
Prototype for everything...
Cheers, Timmo
Quote from: pape_timmo on May 16, 2023, 08:59:37 AM
On GWR we run 12 car Class 387s out of Paddington to Didcot and beyond.
On the Paddington Didcot stoppers we run into platform 3 at Didcot that fits 12 on, then have to shunt to the west end and wait to return into platform 4 to commence the return stopper to Paddington, but 12 cars don't fit on platform 4, so the train is foul of the points accessing the northbound Chester line curve and the route to Oxford.
One day I was working an IET from Paddington to Oxford booked to call at Didcot, and was routed into platform 3. The stopper to Paddington had been brought in early by the signaller from the west end shunt, and was waiting time, about 25 minutes away, to depart for Paddington. I was over 20 late leaving Didcot because I had to sit ans wait until the stopper had departed right time.
Prototype for everything...
Cheers, Timmo
Hello Timmo
Nice story.
Regards
Dawlish Warren has short platforms (nowadays) and IETs stop there. When you get past the end of the platform a number of signs have been planted saying "Do not alight here".
Quote from: Chris Morris on May 16, 2023, 12:04:34 PM
Dawlish Warren has short platforms (nowadays) and IETs stop there. When you get past the end of the platform a number of signs have been planted saying "Do not alight here".
Oh, I thought those signs were to dissuade people from smoking.
I appreciate what you will say regarding long trains and stopping on point work, but I really don't want to go down that route with my layout, as I will no doubt throw a point while the train is on it and cause a derailment and we don't like derailments do we?
QuoteI appreciate what you will say regarding long trains and stopping on point work, but I really don't want to go down that route with my layout, as I will no doubt throw a point while the train is on it and cause a derailment and we don't like derailments do we?
Having witnessed the consequences of a set of points moving "underneath" an ARC train when it was passing an "ICE" on a certain @Mirrlees (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=340) Kato setup, I would agree with your logic John :-\
Moving back on topic; as Mr Kato alluded to me at TINGS, it's great to see him continuing with U.K. outline. Even if in the short term it's a new variation on existing products, it's still encouraging.
Skyline2uk
Mr Kato could take my money now if he did a TPE liveried one :thumbsup:
hi john
re extending your layout ... do you live in a semi and do you get on with your neighbors ????? knock thru ... only joking
paul
Quote from: Ben A on May 15, 2023, 11:24:26 PM
Hi all,
During Hiroshi Kato's talk on both days he confirmed that Kato have tooled up the additional coaches to create a 9-car Class 800 and he expected these models to be here by Spring 2024.
cheers
Ben A.
Hi Ben, I am left wondering if this will be an "add-on" pack of coaches or a complete nine car set?
Do you have any information on that?
Kind regards,
GE
Quote from: paulbeckwith on May 16, 2023, 02:59:45 PM
hi john
re extending your layout ... do you live in a semi and do you get on with your neighbors ????? knock thru ... only joking
paul
You may or may not be surprised to hear that I did mention this to my neighbour a few years ago. I don't think she thought I was serious :D
Quote from: GlenEglise on May 16, 2023, 10:08:45 PM
Quote from: Ben A on May 15, 2023, 11:24:26 PM
Hi all,
During Hiroshi Kato's talk on both days he confirmed that Kato have tooled up the additional coaches to create a 9-car Class 800 and he expected these models to be here by Spring 2024.
cheers
Ben A.
Hi Ben, I am left wondering if this will be an "add-on" pack of coaches or a complete nine car set?
Do you have any information on that?
Kind regards,
GE
The 5 and 9 car sets are in different number series, so it would make sense to do the 9-cars as one complete rake.
The GWR model already produced by Kato is a Class 800, the GWR 9 car units are 800/3 and 802/1. The 9 car sets run with different types of coaches e.g. TPS & TP2 also the main visual difference is the door surrounds, white on the 800 and body colour on the 800/3 and 802/1. Therefore a re-run of existing 800 coaches to make a 9 car set will be wrong, it needs to be a new 800/3 set entirely.
Geoff
i feel a 2nd mortgage coming on ?????
paul
Quote from: captainelectra on May 17, 2023, 09:09:09 AM
Quote from: GlenEglise on May 16, 2023, 10:08:45 PM
Quote from: Ben A on May 15, 2023, 11:24:26 PM
Hi all,
During Hiroshi Kato's talk on both days he confirmed that Kato have tooled up the additional coaches to create a 9-car Class 800 and he expected these models to be here by Spring 2024.
cheers
Ben A.
Hi Ben, I am left wondering if this will be an "add-on" pack of coaches or a complete nine car set?
Do you have any information on that?
Kind regards,
GE
The 5 and 9 car sets are in different number series, so it would make sense to do the 9-cars as one complete rake.
I guess I was wrong in shelling out for a five car set in that case......
CAVEAT EMPTOR
or whatever.
Quote from: paulbeckwith on May 17, 2023, 05:47:07 PM
i feel a 2nd mortgage coming on ?????
paul
The 5 coach versions are very competitively priced. I see no reason why a 9 coach set would not also be priced in the same way.
A 9-car 8XX unit will be far too long for my layout.
I hope Kato also announces 5-car sets in Transpennine Express livery :claphappy:
Quote from: gc4946 on May 17, 2023, 08:53:38 PM
A 9-car 8XX unit will be far too long for my layout.
I hope Kato also announces 5-car sets in Transpennine Express livery :claphappy:
So do I, I think. Because who knows what units will be running and what colour they'll be, now that TPE has lost the franchise.
And I think the TPE 802/2 units have detail differences compared to the LNER and GWR CL802's
Regards,
John P
I'm happy. My longest storage siding will take 2x5 car 800s. I do like seeing the 2x5 running and I am sure a 1x9 would look equally impressive. And as alluded to above, the chances are that it will be relatively affordable.
I did send some Electra vinyls for the 802 in TPx and Hull Trains liveries to Kato via Osbourns models. The feedback implied that reliverying an 800 to an 802, when there are detail differences would no be acceptable to the Japanese market and things rather fell flat.
From this, I would imagine that should 802/3/5/7 appear from Kato, these would have correct tooling.
Just speculation on my part.
Quote from: GlenEglise on May 17, 2023, 08:19:44 PM
I guess I was wrong in shelling out for a five car set in that case......
CAVEAT EMPTOR
or whatever.
Not wrong - there was never any guarantee that Kato would follow the five car sets with the longer units.
Given GWR and LNER run the five car units alongside the 9 car sets I don't see a problem.
Steven B.
LNER often turn out single 5-car sets on Lincoln or Harrogate services and twin 5-car sets are used on most other routes. It's no secret that LNER wanted an all 9-car fleet but had the 5-cars foisted on them by the Department of transport. It causes all sorts of problems with seat reservations, particularly if a 9 car set is substituted for 2x 5 car sets at short notice.
Because of the clip together nature of the models, they are very modular so to do an 802 roof would seem to be a simple enough step if Kato want to go that way.
Jo
Quick Question, Have Kato only done 1 unit number for the GWR Class 800 IET? If so are there any transfers available to renumber?
Ian
Quote from: captainelectra on May 18, 2023, 09:05:31 AM
The feedback implied that reliverying an 800 to an 802, when there are detail differences would no be acceptable to the Japanese market and things rather fell flat.
From this, I would imagine that should 802/3/5/7 appear from Kato, these would have correct tooling.
Just speculation on my part.
Surprising given the level of detail is actually comparatively low compared to many other brands.
Quote from: ianwales on May 18, 2023, 05:25:30 PM
Quick Question, Have Kato only done 1 unit number for the GWR Class 800 IET? If so are there any transfers available to renumber?
Ian
Two I think, one in the bookset, and one in the Gaugemaster starter set.
Edit: no, looks like they're both 800 021.
Quote from: njee20 on May 18, 2023, 09:32:40 PM
Quote from: ianwales on May 18, 2023, 05:25:30 PM
Quick Question, Have Kato only done 1 unit number for the GWR Class 800 IET? If so are there any transfers available to renumber?
Ian
Two I think, one in the bookset, and one in the Gaugemaster starter set.
Edit: no, looks like they're both 800 021.
Correct, both the same running number. In fact the Gaugemaster set is literally the M1 set with the GWR 800 book (or LNER Azuma) in a bigger box.
I did see somebody re-number a GWR set to represent whichever unit is "Paddington", but I believe they made their own decals.
Skyline2uk
I haven't checked my second GWR set as I would need a magnifying glass to do so. Due to this I'm not worried if both are the same anyway. Interestingly though (to me anyway) my first set came with a few pieces of Kato track but the second set didn't. The LNER set also came with the track pieces. Was this just in the earlier sets?
Quote from: Trainfish on May 19, 2023, 11:59:53 PM
I haven't checked my second GWR set as I would need a magnifying glass to do so. Due to this I'm not worried if both are the same anyway. Interestingly though (to me anyway) my first set came with a few pieces of Kato track but the second set didn't. The LNER set also came with the track pieces. Was this just in the earlier sets?
I purchased 2 sets, one from Japan and one from the UK, I found the UK one had slightly different packaging including the track, and the one from Japan had no track. I think it was something to do with the distributor in the UK (Guagemaster?).
The direct from Japan (and included in the Gaugemaster trainsets with the track) versions don't have the peices of track.
The actual intended for sale in the UK ones do.
Or at least thats how it seems from my experience.
Quote from: captainelectra on May 18, 2023, 09:05:31 AM
I did send some Electra vinyls for the 802 in TPx and Hull Trains liveries to Kato via Osbourns models. The feedback implied that reliverying an 800 to an 802, when there are detail differences would no be acceptable to the Japanese market and things rather fell flat.
From this, I would imagine that should 802/3/5/7 appear from Kato, these would have correct tooling.
Just speculation on my part.
Kato have a good track record with developing an extensive range of SNCF TGVs and incorporating small changes in window positions in the trailer cars to suit individual versions, so doing similar for the IET 800 series is not out of the question. However, Kato have never produced the 2+10 car SNCF Atlantique series, and I suspect that the reason is that it is a purely SNCF train for domestic French operation only. Its appeal in neighbouring European countries might be too limited to justify the tooling variations. The 800 series being purely domestic might limit sales outside the UK (and Japan), and recent steep price cuts by German retailers might signal that the wider European market for a purely British train is very limited. As an aside, the German price cuts still left the selling price higher than typical UK prices.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on May 23, 2023, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: captainelectra on May 18, 2023, 09:05:31 AM
I did send some Electra vinyls for the 802 in TPx and Hull Trains liveries to Kato via Osbourns models. The feedback implied that reliverying an 800 to an 802, when there are detail differences would no be acceptable to the Japanese market and things rather fell flat.
From this, I would imagine that should 802/3/5/7 appear from Kato, these would have correct tooling.
Just speculation on my part.
Kato have a good track record with developing an extensive range of SNCF TGVs and incorporating small changes in window positions in the trailer cars to suit individual versions, so doing similar for the IET 800 series is not out of the question. However, Kato have never produced the 2+10 car SNCF Atlantique series, and I suspect that the reason is that it is a purely SNCF train for domestic French operation only. Its appeal in neighbouring European countries might be too limited to justify the tooling variations. The 800 series being purely domestic might limit sales outside the UK (and Japan), and recent steep price cuts by German retailers might signal that the wider European market for a purely British train is very limited. As an aside, the German price cuts still left the selling price higher than typical UK prices.
Have they actually sold many (or even marketed) the 800 models in the rest of Europe anyway? My understanding was that they were mainly intended for the Japanese market who will buy them in large numbers because Hitachi is a Japanese company, with the UK sales being less significant. Presumably this would apply to any other 80x variations too.
Quote from: davidinyork on May 23, 2023, 12:37:24 PM
Have they actually sold many (or even marketed) the 800 models in the rest of Europe anyway? My understanding was that they were mainly intended for the Japanese market who will buy them in large numbers because Hitachi is a Japanese company, with the UK sales being less significant. Presumably this would apply to any other 80x variations too.
Well they were offered outside the UK and Japan but do not appear to have sold well enough at the recommended price. The addition of the longer sets to the range will pair them with the 5 car sets in similar colour schemes. I can see the attraction. The big question is whether the niche liveries on other different 800 series trains will have sufficient appeal in Japan to justify tooling changes. The UK market alone would IMHO not provide that justification however attractive the colour schemes.
Quote from: Skyline2uk on May 18, 2023, 10:54:37 PMI did see somebody re-number a GWR set to represent whichever unit is "Paddington", but I believe they made their own decals.
Skyline2uk
I see Kato is actually producing the Paddington Bear set
https://www.osbornsmodels.com/kato-10-1673-british-railways-class-8000-gwr-paddington-bear-5-cars-set-n-scale-57122-p.asp
The names "Paddington Bear" and "Michael Bond" are on the sides of both leading vehicles, as well as illustrations on various parts of the unit. There are other detail livery differences too.
Sure this will sell like hot cakes (or even marmalade sandwiches).
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on October 02, 2023, 05:48:14 PMSure this will sell like hot cakes.
Bob
Hot marmalde sandwiches!
Paddington has been a favourite of mine since the first book I borrowed, at the age of five, from Wimborne Library was "A Bear called Paddington" so I hope to get this model :)
Cheers
Mike
I did edit my post probably the same time as you posted! Same reason!
I saw something that they're doing a 9-car in LNER, but only the additional 'novelty' GWR Paddington one. I confess I didn't read too closely as I'm not worried, but if so that seems a shame.
Quote from: njee20 on October 02, 2023, 06:39:09 PMI saw something that they're doing a 9-car in LNER, but only the additional 'novelty' GWR Paddington one. I confess I didn't read too closely as I'm not worried, but if so that seems a shame.
There is nothing currently on the Kato website about a 9 coach LNER version, however as Mr Kato mentioned a 9 coach version is coming I would be surprised not to see it in LNER and GWR livery.
The timing for the Paddington one is likely to be linked to the release of a new film.
If only we could convince them to do a TPE 802....
Gaugemaster has now officially announced the GWR Paddington Bear version. There is a DCC sound version, as well as DCC fitted and plain old DC. There is also a DC trainset including an oval of track and DC controller.
https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=paddington+bear
I wonder who will be providing the DCC sound decoders?
Quote from: Kris on October 18, 2023, 09:07:45 PMI wonder who will be providing the DCC sound decoders?
Might still be unique to Kato if they keep their own interface in the power cars.
Hard to imagine them retooling anything. Who did the sound projects for the ones you can get presently? YouChoos?
Quote from: njee20 on October 18, 2023, 09:55:54 PMHard to imagine them retooling anything. Who did the sound projects for the ones you can get presently? YouChoos?
But they will need to cater for the speaker somehow. Sounds like a bit of a departure for a Kato multiple unit.
I thought the same thing when I read the release, my thoughts were Gaugemaster may be adding them as the distributor.
Quote from: woodbury22uk on October 18, 2023, 10:00:01 PMQuote from: njee20 on October 18, 2023, 09:55:54 PMHard to imagine them retooling anything. Who did the sound projects for the ones you can get presently? YouChoos?
But they will need to cater for the speaker somehow. Sounds like a bit of a departure for a Kato multiple unit.
Very true. I'm sure it'll be UK based installations. I just can't see Kato Japan doing that.
Most USA outline sound fitted Kato models are fitted by KatoUSA in the states and not at the factory although I think the Big Boy is an exception to this.
Chances are quite high someone in the UK will be doing the fitting. Sound for the 800 is available from all the usual suppliers on both Zimo and ESU sound decoders so it could literally be contracted out to any of them.
It is a valid question of where they'll put the speaker, there is space at the end of the powered coach at least but I'm not sure it would be 100% hidden.
I wonder if they'll use the Kato specific decoders (ESU and Zimo both do a version of the Kato EM13) or if they'll just hardwire a standard sound decoder in. I imagine the driving cars will just be the standard Kato FL12 lighting decoders.
Info I have is that the fitted sets will have a Kato (EM13) traction decoder, and a Zimo sound decoder.
Quote from: Kris on October 02, 2023, 08:48:20 PMQuote from: njee20 on October 02, 2023, 06:39:09 PMI saw something that they're doing a 9-car in LNER, but only the additional 'novelty' GWR Paddington one. I confess I didn't read too closely as I'm not worried, but if so that seems a shame.
There is nothing currently on the Kato website about a 9 coach LNER version, however as Mr Kato mentioned a 9 coach version is coming I would be surprised not to see it in LNER and GWR livery.
The timing for the Paddington one is likely to be linked to the release of a new film.
GWR Paddington is a 5 car set
Yes. No one was questioning that? ???
I'm not sure how I'd missed that Avanti are replacing the Voyagers with 805s. Need to see how similar they are to 800s and get repainting!
The release date for the new "Paddington in Peru" movie has been announced for November 2024. Mr. Kato might need to do a second run if the late February 2024 release of the Class 800 has sold through.
Great to see the Azusa 9 car avail to pre order at rails at last, looks like the wallet getting a beating. No doubt we will have other 9 car liveries along soon as well
Huge value for money compared to a Farish 2 car unit
Quote from: Spanners70 on January 10, 2024, 04:01:50 PMNo doubt we will have other 9 car liveries along soon as well
GWR set is (informally) promised for later this year.
DCC and DCC sound fitted sets also available to pre-order.
Quote from: model-railway-magic on January 10, 2024, 04:35:40 PMQuote from: Spanners70 on January 10, 2024, 04:01:50 PMNo doubt we will have other 9 car liveries along soon as well
GWR set is (informally) promised for later this year.
DCC and DCC sound fitted sets also available to pre-order.
Given there was a 9 coach GWR set on show at Warley I would suggest that this livery is nailed on, just a matter of when.
The marginal cost for sound (and even standard DCC) appears extremely good.
I think there is a lot to be said for Kato-style design clever models sold at lower prices for multiple unit style models. Are a lot of easily broken small parts really worth an extra £100?
I agree that the Kato style of building models helps keep the price down, but lets not forget that Kato's batch sizes are significantly larger than anything the British based companies manage. This will help (along with simplified printing of livery detail) to keep prices down.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on January 11, 2024, 08:49:48 AMI agree that the Kato style of building models helps keep the price down, but lets not forget that Kato's batch sizes are significantly larger than anything the British based companies manage. This will help (along with simplified printing of livery detail) to keep prices down.
Steven B.
Absolutely.
Amortizing costs of a run of 10,000 rather than 1,000 makes a huge difference.
Regards,
John P
True regarding the run size, although presumably you might sell more models at a lower price. Not so much for locos, but for EMUs, you might run 2 or 3 units together instead of just one. The same could apply to block train wagons, where a closer to scale train might become.e affordable.
The cost saving is in the spec, so the profit margin would be maintained but with higher volume sales.
No. The cost saving is overwhelmingly in the volume. Skimping on detail, finish, clip together assembly, owning their own factories all help, of course. but the volume is the biggest part. We simply don't have the market size to say 'well let's just make ten times as many and sell them cheaper.
When I look at a Kato multiple unit model, I do not see any qualitative difference with other makes, apart from the plastic pantographs. All RTR models have clip together assembly of the main parts. 95% percent of the detail for 80% of the price is a good deal. If you cannot afford 100% of the detail, that is even better. It is not as though Kato models are Triang or Lima.
Even with the same margin and volume, that is a less expensive model, even if not as cheap as Kato. We might even be able to avoid Chinese factories and have a shorter, more robust supply chain.
The Kato 800, good model as it is, is emphatically less detailed than something like the Revolution Pendolino which is a natural comparator (a 9-car being £390 it's about , partially in moulding (they have virtually omitted the bulky equipment boxes on the inner ends, and they're left unpainted), but also in finish; some small labels are missed off, they've not painted the handles on the underframe equpiment boxes yellow. They also eschew standards like native DCC compatibility, NEM couplings, RP25 wheelsets which many may not care about, but they all serve to keep cost down.
I'm not sure why we should aspire to moving away from Chinese factories, and it's naive to think we're on the cusp of bringing production back to the UK, just need to smash out 10 times the volume and leave a few details off.
The price on the 800 is great, at £340 in shops it's about 15% cheaper than a 9-car Pendolino.
Dragging us back on topic it's great to see Kato making further inroads (or extending their existing ones!) to British modelling, in the early days the 800 was marketed as "Kato British Railways", but that seems to have been quietly dropped. They already have some inside bearing bogies on the Amfleet coaches, so I'd be hopeful they'll conquer these on the new 800s.
Quote from: njee20 on January 12, 2024, 10:36:05 AMThey also eschew standards like native DCC compatibility, NEM couplings, RP25 wheelsets which many may not care about, but they all serve to keep cost down.
To be fair, I doubt any of these has a big impact on costs.
Wheels will be made on a computer controlled machine which doesn't care what profile it's cutting. RP25 or 1970s era pizza cutters won't have an impact unless the former takes significantly longer to machine.
Most Kato units & locos have PCBs fitted - designing and making one that's DCC compatible is pennies more than a plain DC one.
NEM couplings might a little over the couplings used in between cars in a multiple unit but compared to the working buckeyes on their coaches and locos it's probably comparable.
The big difference (particularly with multiple units) is the simplified detail (hence fewer parts to cut from sprues and fit), careful use of livery coloured plastic (less painting/printing), fewer screws (clip together = faster). It's also why you'll find Dapol class 156 for less than a Farish 150 or 158.
The effect of detail vs price is visible within Kato's range. A basic Kato four car JR 103 EMU can be had for £75. A more detailed E231 (still four cars) is twice that.
It's interesting to see that on Kato's American and Japanese locos the price differential to Farish/Dapol/Revolution etc is less than on their multiple units.
Personally there's some bits of current models that I'd happily loose (cab and other interior lighting for example). I'm not sure I'd want to drop down to the level of Kato's class 800s. Perhaps we need some middle ground and for each of us to encourage ten of our friends to start modelling in N!
Steven B
Quote from: Steven B on January 12, 2024, 11:34:40 AMQuote from: njee20 on January 12, 2024, 10:36:05 AMThey also eschew standards like native DCC compatibility, NEM couplings, RP25 wheelsets which many may not care about, but they all serve to keep cost down.
To be fair, I doubt any of these has a big impact on costs.
...
Most Kato units & locos have PCBs fitted - designing and making one that's DCC compatible is pennies more than a plain DC one.
But it becomes a design consideration as well. If you completely control the dimensions of the PCB then you can re-use that PCB across models (eg the Eurostar and the F7 having the same PCB), becuase you don't care about needing to ensure you adhere to a set of external standards you don't control re decoder dimensions. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that adding a 6-pin socket would add £50 per model, but it'll definitely be a factor.
Completely agree with you on cab/interior lights though, not needed!
There is the beginning of a move away from Chinese manufacturing, which will only increase either as they develop further (with further increases in labour costs) or move into geo-political conflict with the West. It is not a matter of aspiration but market forces.
A number of European manufacturers now use Vietnam or Eastern Europe, the latter of which greatly reduces supply chain risk. Either way, it would be naïve to imagine the existing production arrangements will last forever, any more than Liverpool, Margate or Poole did.
Don't imagine that the price rises for high spec models are over yet.
I don't want to get combative about this, but this could be the next foot to drop on the hobby. I model European N, so my mind is comparing items such as Kato ICE4s to Fleischmann or Arnold ICE1s or ICE3s. Revolution or Accurascale have a marketing strategy that reduces risk for volume and margin (reducing the risk of unsold stock and leveraging volume with production runs).
Without that, the Pendolino would be much more than £400. The last run of Arnold ICE3 was RRP £500 for eight cars. An Arnold ETR610/RABe 503 is about the price of a Pendolino just for a 4 car base set.
No, I agree, the prices will of course continue rising, but I'm ok with where the prices are (and where they're heading). If you don't want super detailed stuff there are older models around, with a buoyant second hand market. I don't want Kato's "lower cost, lower detail" approach to be the norm. YMMV. Reminds me, I wonder if I can get a replacement windscreen for my 800 on this production run, as one fell out of mine, not clip together enough! :worried:
I can afford most of what I like, but lots of people can't. I would rather have a wider hobby than it become a rich person's toy like before World War 2.
At a certain point, lower volumes caused by price hikes causing further hikes to boost margins could cause a doom loop.
It is particularly a problem in the UK which outside of the South East is poorer than most of western Europe.
Wonder if any manufacturers will do any of the other 800 series on the different liveries
Quote from: Spanners70 on January 13, 2024, 06:52:06 PMWonder if any manufacturers will do any of the other 800 series on the different liveries
0% chance. Kato has the market to itself. Nobody would risk tooling a multi-car train when Kato could just tweak theirs.
Gaugemaster have published some Kato photos of the new coaches for the 9 car sets.
https://mailchi.mp/gaugemaster/kato-release-new-images-for-9-car-class-800?e=dd155d2c05 (https://mailchi.mp/gaugemaster/kato-release-new-images-for-9-car-class-800?e=dd155d2c05)
Quote from: woodbury22uk on February 21, 2024, 04:14:38 PMGaugemaster have published some Kato photos of the new coaches for the 9 car sets.
https://mailchi.mp/gaugemaster/kato-release-new-images-for-9-car-class-800?e=dd155d2c05 (https://mailchi.mp/gaugemaster/kato-release-new-images-for-9-car-class-800?e=dd155d2c05)
That link's from their newsletter and didn't open for me. The news item on their website should work:
https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/news/article/view/id/1731/
It'll be interesting to see how the inside bearings compare to Revolution's Mk5s bogies.
Steven B
Kato have form on the inside bearings - their Amfleet coaches roll very well. Their approach has been rather different to Farish (on the Voyager)/Revolution in that they use a 'clamshell' type design, which retains the axle, rather than having the wheelset clip in to a moulded part of the bogie.
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/1147-040919101735.jpeg)
Kato -> Farish -> Dapol.
Given it's only 4 bogies on a 9-car train I'm sure they'll be great.
Quote from: njee20 on January 12, 2024, 12:24:31 PMNo, I agree, the prices will of course continue rising, but I'm ok with where the prices are (and where they're heading). If you don't want super detailed stuff there are older models around, with a buoyant second hand market. I don't want Kato's "lower cost, lower detail" approach to be the norm. YMMV. Reminds me, I wonder if I can get a replacement windscreen for my 800 on this production run, as one fell out of mine, not clip together enough! :worried:
I'm very happy with Kato's lower cost, lower detail approach. To my mind the older Farish models are not great and I wouldn't want to own most of them, In fact I haven't bought any, except for a couple of very cheap 158s. On the other hand I rate the Kato 800 as a wonderful model. How do I justify that? Well firstly it just looks right running along; it captures the look of the real thing very well indeed. The detail is good enough for when it is in motion. Yes the connectors between coaches are non existent and the connector boxes are very poor. I painted my connector boxes black which I think makes for a worthwhile improvement. The worst part about the Kato 800 is the bright white roof and corridor ends. I have toned these down with a bit of weathering and I think that is enough to reduce it's toy like look and make it more of a convincing model. I do the same with pretty much every other piece of stock. I like to get the whole look right and to me a slightly weathered roof is more important than the nth degree of detail. The Kato 800 is a good, lively runner and stays on the track extremely well which is another strong point in its favour. On the other hand neither of my 800s are the best at really really smooth stops and starts. They are perfectly acceptable but I do have a number of Farish and Dapol that are just a little bit better. I would prefer lower gearing on the 800 but I can see why giving it a high top speed is a good thing for such a model. I also love the way two can be joined together to make a 5+5 unit.
Quote from: Chris Morris on February 22, 2024, 12:38:05 PM... neither of my 800s are the best at really really smooth stops and starts. They are perfectly acceptable but I do have a number of Farish and Dapol that are just a little bit better.
Have you tried them on a Kato SX controller? My 800 came with one, and I have to say it does match Kato mechanisms very well, in fact it gives great results with just about everything old and new that I've tried so far.
I am tempted to investigate converting a couple of SXs to handheld units for exhibition use, taking over from my old KPC controllers which whilst great do cause one or two of the modern far east mechanisms in my collection to jerk a bit.
I reckon for £350 total outlay this sight is a bargain.
I have two SX controllers on my son's layout and I agree they're very good controllers actually. The 800 is definitely geared for top speed over slow speed acceleration.
To be clear, I have no specific issue with the 800, I've gone one, but I don't want the industry as a whole to push towards a "lower detail, lower cost" angle.
The RRP of Farish's latest run of the old Poole era Mk3 shows low detail does not equal low cost!
Kato win the price war because of the volume they produce (10x per batch over Farish/Dapol), simplified construction (few screws) and simplified livery application.
Steven B
Yes, of course. I think Farish's prices can be artificially inflated though. When Dapol re-run older models they tend to keep the pricing lower, to reflect amortised tooling costs or whatever. Hence new-run 66s are cheaper than 68s or 50s or whatever. Farish don't do this - they tend to align prices so that (within reason) coaches are £x, and locos are £y. Hence we see things like the 170 at a price to make ones eyes water given it's a 15 year old model, but it roughly keeps step with the 158.
The instruction sheet for the 9 car Azuma is now available to view and download on the kato webpage. The inside bearing bogie is listed as a spare.
https://www.katomodels.com/product/n/class800
Chose the ASSY TABLE button.
Do we know what decoder Kato is using in the sound-equipped versions?
Quote from: Ski on April 11, 2024, 02:00:27 AMDo we know what decoder Kato is using in the sound-equipped versions?
I asked a similar question a few months ago. I think that the answer was Zimo. I believe that the sound decoders are not being fitted by Kate but by a 3rd party.
Quote from: Kris on April 11, 2024, 07:24:46 AMI believe that the sound decoders are not being fitted by Kate but by a 3rd party.
That will be Suzy then. I think Kate is otherwise engaged.
(Sorry
@Kris, couldn't resist. ;) )