LMS composite coach rake

[GWR-Kris]

What would the standard rake of the LMS Marron stanier composite coaches be?

[Bad Raven]

Sorry, but that is rather a "how long is a piece of string" question.

While some express rakes were made up in a particular form, general purpose rakes varied wildly.

LMS Coaches, by Jenkinson and Essery, is the bible. Even that is not widely prescriptive, as it's a subject that could not be.

If you could be more specific as to area/purpose/time period, I might be able to help.

As one example, the Pines Express in 1939 was usually:-

TK/TO (TWO EXTRAS NOT ALWAYS PRESENT)//BTK/CK/BTK//BCK/RCO/RT/BTK//BCK//BCK

The final BCK was a GWR through carriage.

[PLD]

What would the standard rake of the LMS Marron stanier composite coaches be?

It is very unlikely a train would consist solely of composite coaches (i.e. coaches with more than one class of accommodation in the same vehicle)

The number and types of coaches in a train formation will vary according to the anticipated demand for seats on that particular journey and in LMS days would vary a lot more than today's 'fixed rake' trains.

Typically a long distance LMS train would have:

• A brake vehicle at each end, usually with the brake compartment at the outer end.
• Some first class accommodation (all first class coaches and/or a composite)
• The first class accommodation all together and usually at the London end of the train (Glasgow end for services wholly within Scotland and Liverpool/Manchester - Scotland services)
• Where catering provision (Restaurant or Buffet car) is included, it would normally be positioned between the classes.

Where a train divides or drops off sections en route to serve different destinations, all the coaches for a single destination would be grouped together and the above general rules apply to each section with the exception that if the section was only 2-3 coaches it may only include one brake vehicle.

Bad Raven's Pines formation is a good example with 4 sections (2 of them single Brake-Composite coaches) each of which conforms to the above rules.

Paul

[Zunnan]

Not strictly true. The LMS and later BR(M) leaned heavily towards the use of composites in preference to all firsts, as witnessed by the numbers of actual vehicles built. Some select named and long distance trains would operate as you mention, but by far and away the most usual would be formed with third and compo stock. With numerous trains joining and dividing on route the formations were often prone to change on a daily basis as sets of portions came into and out of service and weren't neccessarily changed on a like for like basis, although an attempt would be made to match capacity. What could be a BCK/TK on one day could be a CK/BTK on the next, and photographic evidence shows that even suburban stock could find its way in to replace faulty vehicles. Besides that, how does the TK/BCK/BTK/BCK/TK Edinburgh - Perth fit into the ruleset posted?

'How long is a piece of string?' is very apt when talking LMS formations, even the archetypal 4 coach set was prone to change and could be found running as BTK/CK/TK/BTK, BCK/TK/TK/BTK, BFK/TK/TK/BTK amongst others. It is worth noting that the least common formation (the third I list) is the only one you can currently produce with RTR stock, the LMS only built 11 of the BFK as modelled by Farish compared with several hundred CK and more than 130 BCK (of 3 diagrams, keeping it strictly P3), neither of which are produced. Currently, if you want accurate formations you're limited to kitbuilding or picking off the rarest formations...You can't do the namers and prestige long distance trains because theres no catering vehicles, you can't do the secondary expresses and other corridor sets because theres no CK, BCK or catering vehicles. The CO and TO as modelled are also of little use as they were typically used with an RT or RF, although the TO can be used in an excursion set formed along the lines of BFK/TO/TO/TO/TO/TK/BTK. The situation is currently even worse in 00 gauge though, well until later this year anyway, and then hopefully Bachmann will see the light and provide some 60' LMS vehicles in the Farish range.

[GWR-Kris]

cheers for the advice. okay witht he answers basically im looking for what would be typical for a main line express. no coach drop off etc. it will be late era3 that im modelling. im just after a typical configuration tbh, even tho my layout is not of a particular place more of era and area.

[Zunnan]

That in itself will change based on where said mainline is, what kind of express, where the train originates and terminates. There isn't really a typical LMS express because they're all so different. The period you've settled on muddies the waters considerably because there were a heck of a lot of older coaches still in frontline service, both P1-P2 LMS and also older coaches from the pre-grouping companies. Working practices of those constiuent companies influenced operations for longer than the LMS existed and were still prevalent late in BR days, and that had a bearing on formations almost as much as stock shortages following the war, which by settling on late 'era 3' I assume you are aiming at. To be representative of this era you're looking at an eclectic mix of clapped out coaches and a good number will need kit building, the exact formation is open to debate because the formations were so open to alteration from one day to the next. The best I can suggest is to look at sample formations and go for the easiest to produce, becuse of the very limiting RTR range of Stanier stock you'll have no choice but to kit build at least a couple of coaches.

A Midlands to the North formation could be ~
BTK/TK/CK/CK/TK/TK/BTK/RT/CO (late '40s Birmingham - Newcastle)
Liverpool trans-Pennine service to Hull ~
TK/BTK/CK/CK/RB/TK/TK/TK/BTK
London - Perth portion of a WCML express ~
BTK/TO/TO/RT/CO/CK/CK/BFK
Thames Clyde express ~
TO/BTK/TK/TK/TK/TK/TO/RF/FK/BFK/BG
Coronation Scot ~
BTK/TO/RK/TO/TO/RK/RFO/FK/BFK
London - Midlands WCML express ~
BTK/TO/RTO/RK/RFO/FK/BTK

The one common thing with all of these trains is the provision of catering vehicles. For that you'll need to build the Ultima 68' diners, Etched Pixels of this very forum should be able to sort you out there, as well as kits for 60' CK vehicles. The Thames Clyde Express would probably be the easiest in needing only a Restaurant First building, the BG can probably be left out, but that itself is a handy vehicle to have in numbers.

[EtchedPixels]

Bachmann have done the 50' BG RTR in OO, and with the NGS inspection saloon due presumably they'll capitalise on that chassis to do the 50' BG