A British domestic train from Kato? 800 series available from May 2021

Started by woodbury22uk, February 09, 2019, 10:39:55 AM

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Railwaygun

#15
Quote from: ntpntpntp on February 09, 2019, 06:45:17 PM
Quote from: NeMo on February 09, 2019, 04:34:24 PM
So it'll be a 66 then. Nobody's done one of those yet.  ;)
Kato already do 66s in the correct scale for n gauge   :D

It's correct for Europe (1/160)

They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.
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njee20

Yes, That the joke... they're all Coninental prototypes anyway, they've not actually done any UK models.

1/150 would be stupid. It would be wrong for the UK market, and it's obviously totally wrong anyway for the Japanese market. If they wanted to do a 66 intended for the UK market they'd be insane to do anything other than 1:148 IMO. Can't see it though, Farish and Dapol have the market pretty well down up. The obvious improvement would be sound fitted/easily compatible, and that's not gonna come from Kato. 

railsquid

#17
Quote from: njee20 on February 09, 2019, 10:47:01 PM
1/150 would be stupid. It would be wrong for the UK market, and it's obviously totally wrong anyway for the Japanese market.

Both Kato and Tomix have released 1:150 continental prototypes which are also marketed in Japan. Though as they already do a 1:160 66, and it has no obvious Japanese connection, I don't imagine any developments there.

railsquid

Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.

It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.

And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.

gc4946

Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.

It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.

And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.

Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?
"I believe in positive, timely solutions, not vague, future promises"

railsquid

#20
Quote from: gc4946 on February 10, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.

It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.

And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.

Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?

AFAIK the prototype is the 885 series which runs in Kyushu, Kato does a couple of variants:

http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic

I'm not familiar with either prototype (Kyushu is a long way away, and the UK even further...)

Snowwolflair

#21
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:13:41 AM
Quote from: gc4946 on February 10, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.

It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.

And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.

Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?

AFAIK the prototype is the 885 series which runs in Kyushu, Kato does a couple of variants:

http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic

I'm not familiar with either prototype (Kyushu is a long way away...)

I recall they tilt  :D

The difference from 1:150 to 1:148 is 1.3%. 

If Farish or Dapol were regularly within 1.3% of accuracy I would be ecstatic, and I use 2mm (1:152) items converted to N all the time.

railsquid

Quote from: Snowwolflair on February 10, 2019, 12:29:24 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:13:41 AM
Quote from: gc4946 on February 10, 2019, 12:07:40 AM
Quote from: railsquid on February 10, 2019, 12:02:41 AM
Quote from: Railwaygun on February 09, 2019, 10:27:11 PM
They might do it to 1/150, especially if they could sell the model in its japanese version as well.

It wouldn't surprise me, as IIRC the 800 class is based on a Japanese prototype, so if the economically sane option is to modify existing tooling, then 1:150 it will be.

And the wailing and gnashing will be a thing to behold.

Wikipedia says the class 800s are based on Hitachi's A-Train concept, which Japanese model is the nearest to a representation of the 800s?

AFAIK the prototype is the 885 series which runs in Kyushu, Kato does a couple of variants:

http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei
http://www.katomodels.com/product/n/885kei_sonic

I'm not familiar with either prototype (Kyushu is a long way away...)

I recall they tilt  :D

The difference from 1:150 to 1:148 is 1.3%. 

If Farish or Dapol were regularly within 1.3% of accuracy I would be ecstatic, and I use 2mm (1:152) items converted to N all the time.

I don't have anything citeable at hand, but different Japanese manufacturers are perfectly capable of making models of exactly the same prototype with measurably different dimensions.


njee20

1:150 would make more sense for the 800 than the 66, as it'll never sit alongside a 1:148 one, unless Hornby then did a proper 1:148 one having recouped license costs from Kato. It would still be about an inch 'too short' over its length, which isn't exactly trivial, but yes if they were modifying an existing tooling then it would be understandable.

AdrianC

Well at least we know now it won't be sets of MK5s...... :D
If it moves and shouldn't, duct tape. It it doesn't move and should, WD40...

railsquid

#25
Kato announces class 800

http://www.jp-ngauge.info/ngi/2019/07/kato2019-6f3c.html

Photo is from a hobby show taking place in Tokyo today.

Ben A

Hello all,

Great news!  I had heard that the Hornby licence expires next year, which presumably is how Kato have managed to negotiate this, with the very clear launch date of 2021.

The issue around scale is a tough one.  My understanding is that in Japan the Shinkansen trains (standard gauge) are modelled to 1:160 which is the correct scale/gauge combination, while the commuter trains (3'6 gauge?) are modelled to 1:150 which is close to correct. 

From my brief but interesting discussions with Mr Kato at Warley last year I got the sense that he cannot understand why anyone would want a model that is not the correct scale/Gauge combination, and would need some convincing to put out an "incorrect" Kato model.

I suspect the Class 800 will be to 1:160, but of course he will be attending TINGS so maybe this is a good chance to lobby him?

Cheers

Ben A.



railsquid

#27
Quote from: Ben A on July 27, 2019, 08:16:52 AM
Hello all,

Great news!  I had heard that the Hornby licence expires next year, which presumably is how Kato have managed to negotiate this, with the very clear launch date of 2021.

The issue around scale is a tough one.  My understanding is that in Japan the Shinkansen trains (standard gauge) are modelled to 1:160 which is the correct scale/gauge combination, while the commuter trains (3'6 gauge?) are modelled to 1:150 which is close to correct. 

rom my brief but interesting discussions with Mr Kato at Warley last year I got the sense that he cannot understand why anyone would want a model that is not the correct scale/Gauge combination, and would need some convincing to put out an "incorrect" Kato model.

I suspect the Class 800 will be to 1:160, but of course he will be attending TINGS so maybe this is a good chance to lobby him?

The most common gauge is the 3'6" (1067mm) Cape Gauge, which in N scale would be about 7mm, which means the majority of Kato N scale stock is running on a very unprototypical broad gauge.

(FWIW there is a small "Nj" scene dedicated to the correct gauge for Japanese N scale, see .g.. http://vivant.jp/nj-hatena.htm).

If Kato are basing this on existing tooling for Japanese models, I'd expect it to be 1:150.

njee20

I'm really surprised they can't understand that people would want things to match, even if prototypically inaccurate. To release a 1:160 model would seem woefully short sighted of them. Fingers crossed they are convinced otherwise.

RailGooner

#29
Well this is a nice surprise to wake up to. :D I think it's fair to say that most of us expected this, but it's great to read it confirmed in black and white.

As for the question of scale, the biggest market for this prototype is surely the UK. So IMHO to maximise ROI Kato must release this model in British Outline N Gauge. Would I buy this model in Continental N? No, absolutely not! In British Outline N Gauge, I'd be in for several - increasingly so as the prototype spreads across the network in the years ahead.

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