Model Railway Hobby Costs

[D1042 Western Princess]

In reply to both Ben and Paul (above) it really depends on 'disposable income' and personal circumstances as to what is 'expensive' - it's all relative.
Certainly, when working, £100 was not regarded as 'prohibitively expensive' but now retired, and on a pension, it looks very different.
I hope this goes some way to answering their questions.

[Webbo]

Say the locos are worth $100 each to buy new

But they're not. British outline N-gauge locos are nearer the £100 mark ($216 Australian) and increasingly over that price.

If British N-gauge locos were $100 Australian, i.e., £46, then we wouldn't be having this discussion! We'd all be at the loco train shop buying new toys!

Cheers, NeMo

Who said my 40 locos were British outline? I have 4 British locos and all the rest are Kato, Atlas, Intermountain, Concor, and Fox Valley. Over the last 15 years the MSRP of these locos would average a bit above the $100 US mark but with the typical web discount (20-30%) or deals offered by US online retailers the price would be a bit less than $100. Of course the Australian $ has gone up and down compared to USD and it is not so good at the moment. Nevertheless Nemo's statement that British locos being up around £100 seems to be about right. British outline is expensive.

Webbo

[railsquid]

All I tend to do if asked by the Domestic Overlord about my trains is say they were cheap.........am I wrong?

You're correct - compared to individually hand-crafted masterpieces, modern RTR is a positive bargain

I keep chastizing myself for spending money, but then I remember I don't have any other hobbies and no car. I've reached about 90 powered units (locos and multiple units) in 14 months, though many of those are Japanese and dirt cheap relatively speaking. Only one GBP100+ loco so far, most of the rest have been bargains or 2nd hand.

[NeMo]

But I have never understood why people refer to £100 for a loco as a "psychological barrier."  Is there a similar barrier with cars?  Or CD players?  Or golf clubs?

Yes, yes it is similar in other hobbies and for that matter other purchases. The actual number varies of course, but these barriers are real and the market adapts to them. So whether or not you understand them is irrelevant, they're there, and economists and businesspeople discuss them and deal with (and to some degree trick consumers into ignoring them).

As I've said above, the acid test will be when all these kickstarter projects actually get sold. If £19 'Mermaids' sell by the boatload, then that shows the market is happy to pay for quality regardless of price. But if the kickstarter doesn't get off the ground, then I think that's a fair sign that price is an issue, whether or not we like it, and that people will prefer to buy a £12 'Grampus' from Dapol over a £19 'Mermaid' from CRS.

I suspect your 'Pendolino' is a bit atypical because there's pent-up demand for this model and, as you say, you get quite a lot of train for your money. Things like the 'Mermaid' and the N-Train ready-to-run EMU kits are a bit more reflective of reality. They're niche products going up against things existing, lower-cost mass-produced models. If they sell well, then as I say, the argument for more expensive but better models in N-gauge is made.

Also, bear in mind the £300 Pendolino is, in effect, two locomotives plus seven coaches, of three different types.  So allowing £100 for each locomotive, this means the coaches are, in effect, just over £14 each, which represents super value in my view.  Or, if we value the coaches at £20 (less than new Mk1s at Hattons) then each loco is the equivalent of £80.  Still very good value.

I don't disagree, but so much depends on the individual shopper. If you've got a good but averagely paid job (say, £25,000 to £30,000 a year) and a young family and mortgage, setting aside £300 is doable but still requiring you to set aside a far amount of money per month. The average monthly disposable income in the UK (according to Google, at least) is £224.50. Spending under half of that on a toy train isn't beyond the realms of possibility, hence the popularity of special offers when locos get sold at £50-75 a pop. But once you start talking about £200 or £300 for a train... well, you can see how that compares to that average disposable income.

Model trains are an expensive hobby. Not crazy expensive (I've got two telescopes that each cost around £1700 each, plus eyepieces that cost anything up to £400 each). But once you start adding up all the locos, rolling stock, electricals and of course the layout, it racks up.

Cheers, NeMo

[NeMo]

Who said my 40 locos were British outline? I have 4 British locos and all the rest are Kato, Atlas, Intermountain, Concor, and Fox Valley. Over the last 15 years the MSRP of these locos would average a bit above the $100 US mark but with the typical web discount (20-30%) or deals offered by US online retailers the price would be a bit less than $100. Of course the Australian $ has gone up and down compared to USD and it is not so good at the moment. Nevertheless Nemo's statement that British locos being up around £100 seems to be about right. British outline is expensive.

Yes, that was my point. I checked your layout before replying, and it's a very impressive US outline. I wish I had that space! US stuff is a lot cheaper than UK stuff though, presumably because the market is so much bigger.

Cheers, NeMo

[Tom U]

I once had to fend off spousal comment about expenditure on my railway and slot car (my other vice) hobby.
I said that, unlike her 7 dogs and 2 cows (Don't ask - the cows don't give milk and will never ever be eaten, they are just pets) my toy cars and trains don't eat every day and I repair myself so don't need to call the vet in to fix them.
I said that provided the topic was closed there, I would not introduce shoes and handbags into the discussion.
Been OK since then 

[Bealman]

As has already been pointed out here, Australian retail prices for British N gauge are huge. Unfortunately, that's the way it will remain, methinks.

[Ben A]

Yes, yes it is similar in other hobbies and for that matter other purchases. The actual number varies of course, but these barriers are real and the market adapts to them. So whether or not you understand them is irrelevant, they're there, and economists and businesspeople discuss them and deal with (and to some degree trick consumers into ignoring them).

<snipped>

Cheers, NeMo

Last time I bought a car I knew what my budget was (with a degree of flexibility) and then looked to see what I could get for the money.  But my budget was my own figure - admittedly rounded to the nearest thousand - it wasn't an amount somehow externally imposed by group-think.  In my household other hobbies of other family members include fish-keeping, horse-riding and attending sports matches.  At no time have I ever heard any mention of a price barrier whether it be for a new fishtank, or item of tack, or ticket for a sporting event. 

I accept that companies will always try to entice us to spend as much as possible - that's business - and as a sales tactic I can see that a nice round number (everything's £1!  Or 3 for £10!) can be successful.

I also accept that economists and businesspeople will often discuss as "fact" perceived trends or behaviours for which evidence is sketchy or just anecdotal. 

I suspect there is also a degree of confirmation bias here - if one person has a personal barrier of £100 for a loco then they're likely to remember other opinions that chime with that, and forget or discard those that don't.

I remain unconvinced about the idea of a "psychological barrier" that somehow affects everyone in the market.  Maybe a few people, some of the time, but right now I don't have an issue whether a loco is £90 or £115 - if I like it, and it satisfies my criteria, I'll get it.  If it doesn't, or I've spent that month's hobby money already, then I won't.

cheers

Ben A.

[DesertHound]

 

As has already been pointed out here, Australian retail prices for British N gauge are huge. Unfortunately, that's the way it will remain, methinks.

I walked into a model shop in Melbourne - the one under the station. Once I found the Graham Farish stuff and looked at the prices, I nearly fell over!

[JasonBz]

£100 is only a psychological barrier "now" - Because it is a jump to three figures, I presume the next one will be £150 as a regular price (cos its nearer to £200).

Its like the £1 /£2 / £3 pint of beer, people say they wont have it but when it happens they do have - Just maybe not so often.

[Irish Padre]

One thing I've found useful are Nectar points, which can be converted into eBay vouchers. I've used them to buy at least one brand new loco plus several coaches. My wife finds my new found loyalty to Sainsburys very amusing!

I've also found that going Japanese has helped my modelling budget stretch further. The locos and stock are generally cheaper than UK outline to begin with, and careful internet shopping can lower the costs even more. For the totemic £100 figure mentioned above, one can quite easily purchase two brand new Kato locos.....

But the two things it really comes down to are budget and perspective really. I've now got a monthly budget, most recently saved up to buy a special railcar set I was after. But in perspective terms, we're all investing in stuff that has got some resale value and might even accumulate in value. Which is more than you can say for pints of beer and football season tickets, not that there's anything wrong with them either. But literally,you pay your money and take your choice.

[NeMo]

Last time I bought a car I knew what my budget was (with a degree of flexibility) and then looked to see what I could get for the money.  But my budget was my own figure - admittedly rounded to the nearest thousand - it wasn't an amount somehow externally imposed by group-think.

Ah, you misunderstand me. Psychological price barriers aren't group-think, but rather ballpark descriptions at points at which significant numbers of potential purchasers are turned away. They vary with what's been sold. Nobody is saying that there's a telepathic link between all cars purchasers that means they all want something (new) for under £15,000... but rather the retailers have discerned trends that means at various price points the number of potential purchasers drops off significantly. It's why we see many times more stuff sold at £9.99 than £10.01, even though the real difference between those prices is trivial. So for example Waitrose will sell more bottles of wine just under £10 than just over it, and you'll see a lot of stuff on their shelves at £8.99 or £9.99 but relatively few bottles at £10.99 or £11.99. However irrational it might seem, it's the way shoppers think.

I suspect there is also a degree of confirmation bias here - if one person has a personal barrier of £100 for a loco then they're likely to remember other opinions that chime with that, and forget or discard those that don't.

And that's exactly what I've been saying. There are two possible options here. Either the market will be enticed to buy increasingly expensive but almost flawless models, or it won't. I say again: I'd put the 'Pendolino' aside because it isn't typical of the projects. But the 'Mermaid' is, and the Class 320/321 probably will be too. If the market launches these projects via lots of pre-orders, then Ben, you're absolutely correct. But if the market fails to support something like the 'Mermaid' or the Class 320/321, then it may well be that these psychological barriers exist and potential kickstarters have to think about it. £19 for a single 4-wheel wagon may or may not be too much for modellers to spend... we shall have to see.

In short, my point is that people are indeed re-stating their opinions. What we need to recognise (and what I keep talking about but nobody comments on) is that the acid test for increasingly expensive kickstarter projects is how well they do. Until I see one of these premium projects get off the ground I'm afraid I agree with D1042 that price *does* matter, and that for the hobby to grow, there may be a time manufacturers "design clever" (to use Hornby's phrase) and produce (perhaps just some) models that are good rather than great but sell at a reasonable price. Union Mills, I'd argue, does exactly that, though not explicitly so, and in such small volume that its impact on the model shop side of the retail business is zero.

Cheers, NeMo

[MalcolmInN]

Its like the £1 /£2 / £3 pint of beer, people say they wont have it but when it happens they do have - Just maybe not so often.

Or the nearly £5 a pint at a BAe reunion in a Holiday Inn recently !
I was so flabbergasted, I only had one !
It reminded me of why I brew my own at a fraction of the cost, Oh ! look another topic for the "Other Hobbies" section

[DesertHound]

Ben

Interesting that you mention sports matches. If you don't mind me asking, would that include football matches? I know there has been a great deal of coverage in the past of how expensive this has become (especially for a dad with two kids if he wants to go and watch his Premiership team week in, week out). That said, how do you ration a set number of spectator seats in a stadium if there are more supporters than seats? Economists would argue price is the most efficient allocator of resources (in this case stadium seats).

Back to model railways, I'll go with the majority in that you can spend as little (above a certain threshold) or as much, as you like on this hobby. The beauty of this hobby (well, one of them) is when building a model railway (or collection) you can add to it when funds permit. Most people don't build a model railway over night, it takes months, perhaps years, and so funds need not be found all in one go. The famous mantra is that a model railway is never finished.

Once a model railway is built (whether self built or bought) then I think the satisfaction derived need not come from spending more money. It comes from devising an operating system, be it a card and waybill system or a timetable. This is what will sustain interest over the years, rather than just "playing trains" and running a loco as the mood takes you. Whilst there's nothing wrong with running a loco as your mood takes you, it won't sustain a 1-2hr operating session I would have thought, whereas a methodical operating system / schedule will. Such a system can be devised for a small yard layout with only one loco and a handful of wagons - you don't need fifty locos all sitting in sidings waiting their turn. At this point the marginal (on going costs) of the hobby are minimal.

Where I think the "big money" issues come are with buying newly released stock on a regular basis. Again, nothing wrong with this if it's your thing, but it's a different sense of gratification to me. Building and operating a layout over many years gives "slow release" gratification, much like building a boat or landscaping and maturing your garden. Adding stock to your collection is more of the "sugar rush" gratification, a quick shot in the arm which is great, but needs replenishing since it doesn't last long. That to me is no different to collecting / buying any manner of things.

Just my thoughts / opinions - would be happy to hear a counter arguement should you feel there is one.

Sorry Ben, the first paragraph was just to really add to your informative post above, the rest of the post is posed more generally to the wider forum.

Dan

[DesertHound]

£100 is only a psychological barrier "now" - Because it is a jump to three figures, I presume the next one will be £150 as a regular price (cos its nearer to £200).

Its like the £1 /£2 / £3 pint of beer, people say they wont have it but when it happens they do have - Just maybe not so often.

Ah - wait until you get to the sometimes £8-£10 pint (or should I say 500ml) that I have to put up with!