As people reading this (who are therefore, I would expect, into F1 in some way) will know, in yesterday's race a Ferrari mechanic sustained a broken leg when Raikkonen ran over him having being released from his pitstop too early. In the first race both Haas cars retired after pitstop issues.
That's 3 unsafe releases in 2 races (that we know about). Over the total number of pitstops this is a small number, but it's often been a feature, an to my mind an unwelcome one, in influencing race results in previous seasons - it's an instant retirement.
What's the feeling here? Clearly someone has made a mistake at some point in each case, so it's "human error", but with tyres being changed in an unbelievably short amount of time the chance of a mistake is I believe increased. More haste less speed perhaps. Is it time to have a minimum pit stop time? Or a maximum number of mechanics per car (as in the WEC)? Or just leave it to the teams to ensure it doesn't keep happening and keep fining them when it does?
I don't have an axe to grind and don't really favour any team or driver, but I think it's a shame when a driver retires when this happens. And if people are getting hurt I think it needs to be looked at.
The Raikkonen incident was certainly nasty 1) because the mechanic was injured and 2) because it wasn't even marginal - they'd not got the wheel off - no one could have possibly said that car was safe to release. The Haas ones in Oz were mechanics declaring the car 'safe', only to change their mind (admittedly nearly instantly).
The speed of pitstops is astounding now, I know it slowed down last year with heavier wheels, but Williams got under 2 seconds for an in-race pitstop. To change all 4 wheels that's truly phenomenal. It's no surprise that with that we're seeing some errors with that sort of speed. As to how you stop it, or improve safety... no idea. There will always be a level of risk inherent I guess.
Any time people are near vehicles there is a risk of injury
In this case the vehicle was declared safe to leave, the driver given that signal, as the wheel gun had been applied to the wheel and then released
Other teams have corrected this issue whereby the mechanic releases a button, to confirm the wheel change is complete
As for the retirement that was inevitable as the car had to be pushed back, the wheels rematched and the driver knew by the time that had been completed he would be in last place
To go from third to last, there is no point going back out with one third of the race remaining
There would also be a penalty for completing a pit stop with incorrect tyres, even though the car was still in the pit lane
This penalty will now be applied at the next race
Quote from: MJKERR on April 09, 2018, 01:20:06 PM
As for the retirement that was inevitable as the car had to be pushed back, the wheels rematched and the driver knew by the time that had been completed he would be in last place
To go from third to last, there is no point going back out with one third of the race remaining
There would also be a penalty for completing a pit stop with incorrect tyres, even though the car was still in the pit lane
This penalty will now be applied at the next race
Not sure that's true - Bottas (in his Williams days) ended up with mismatched tyres at Spa in 2015. He was given a drive through penalty, but stayed out on the mismatched tyres. Had Kimi just driven off with mismatched tyres (with no associated personnel injury) I imagine he'd have either pitted again, or stayed out and taken a penalty on the chin. I can't imagine they'd ever have wheeled the car back down the pit lane to resolve it, as that would be more dangerous.
You talk as if you know definitively he's getting a penalty at the next race? Seems they've been fined €50,000, but I've seen no mention of that, and why would they issue a grid penalty purely for the mismatched tyres?
Mismatched Williams:
(https://s.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/midas/81837f34b3a97a9c960e5cc7a777c099/202518939/bgp05.jpg)
I had a few thoughts on this during the race after the event, although all of them are likely to slow pitstops down at least fractionally.
The simplest (and probably safest) solution is to make all pitstops 5 seconds minimum. So no matter how fast your tyre change is, you still have to wait until the car's been stopped for 5 seconds. This would make stops quite a bit safer as it's more about optimising the change to within the 5 seconds limit rather than trying to get it down to 1 second. That means you can do better visual checks etc. Downside of course is that it reduces the excitement of the stop a little and a quick pitstop doesn't give you a race advantage.
Another option is to change the procedure so there's a definite multi-stage positive action to ok the release and that can't be overridden. For instance every jack man has to press a button to confirm done and their second (ie the tyre putting on guy) *also* has to confirm. When all 4 wheels are confirmed *then* you get the option to green light. There's still the capability for a mistake (if you train everyone to do a task as super high speed, muscle memory kicks in and automatically presses the ok button), but you could do an automatic 1 second delay for the confirmation in which it can be cancelled.
Upside, potentially safer. Downside, slower stops again, but not as bad as a 5 second minimum. It would also probably require a rule change to have standard systems.
As to the penalty, it's entirely likely the stewards would have black flagged the car and disqualified Kimi, as well as penalising Ferrari a lot more heavily as you're meant to immediately stop the car after an unsafe release (Haas got reduced fines in Australia as they did just that). So leaving the car out would have probably been a lot worse for them.
Quote from: njee20 on April 09, 2018, 01:36:28 PMYou talk as if you know definitively he's getting a penalty at the next race? Seems they've been fined €50,000, but I've seen no mention of that, and why would they issue a grid penalty purely for the mismatched tyres?
Advised during the race the incident would be investigated at the end of the race
Fine / Penalty, action has been taken
Had the car left the pit stop, which it did, then penalty is applied (that's the regulations)
The team noticed the issue, told the driver to stop, and the plan was to push the car back to pitstop
Had the car returned to the race then a penalty would have applied, but it will now be applied at next race
As a drive through penalty cannot be applied a minimum 5 place grid penalty may be applied
A decision needs to be taken by Thursday
I agree though, it was a terrible situation, They really need to sort this out to ensure that the risk of it happening again is limited. I understand that there will always be the risk but when a car leaves without one wheel having even been removed let alone changed, something is seriously wrong. Why did they stock using the lollipop man? Am sure such an individual would not have let Kimi leave when he did.
Marred a good race full of great racing on the track, two races in a row where controversy in the pits seriously affected the result!
I really hope they get it sorted and soon!
PS and BRING BACK THE GRID GIRLS - I miss them hehe!
Best wishes
Simon
QuoteWhy did they stock using the lollipop man? Am sure such an individual would not have let Kimi leave when he did.
QuotePS and BRING BACK THE GRID GIRLS
combine the 2 and introduce lollipop girls then no one would be in a hurry to leave the pits
Love it!!
Best wishes
Simon
Sorry, but for me a huge portion of interest in F1 disappeared when refuelling was discontinued. Sure, it was dangerous, but it added an enormous tactical element to the racing which I believe is missing nowadays. I still watch every race but not with the same anticipation I used to get :(
Could they not just run it on simulators ,would be a lot safer
I haven't watched any F1 in a while, it doesn't really grab me these days (silly noises as well).
However, pit stop safety (or lack thereof) has always been a talking point, but remember they no longer refuel mid race.
How can forget the incidents with refuelling down the years? Ferrari (Kimi?) dragging a refuelling hose down the pits, and rather less amusing, a massive fireball at Benetton (1994?).
Skyline2uk
I lost a lot of interest in it when they nolonger had to run across the track to jump in their motors at the start :(
I did watch some for a while after, but stopped when they fitted planks underneath. why not a ball&chain as well ?
I thought they had re-introduced fueling ? Must ask swmbo, she watches every one still.
not had refuelling at pit stops for many year, way too dangerous.
Twas 1994 and it was Max Verstappen's Dad Jos at Hockenheim -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6pNb5kAoXw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6pNb5kAoXw)
I much prefer racing where it is all about the drivers competing on the track not strategies and pit stop overtakes - result is boring!
Best wishes
Simon
I've been doing some reading ! and assuming my eyes didnt get xxed it seems that re-fuelling was banned in 1984 but reintroduced in 1994 which is the sequence I remembered but not the dates.
Then it was banned again in/since 2010, which goes to show just how long it has been (8years, how time flies) since I paid it any attention !
The interesting years were approx S.Moss, Hailwood, Hill(sn) Stewart and a few others in no particular order. Boring ever since :(
Clearly you don't remember Gilles Villeneuve then...?! Dijon 1979, last few laps... boring, never. Number 27, not forgotten.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZ0wv1I8yc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZ0wv1I8yc)
Every era of every sport has its boredom quota - like I said in another thread, it's the random moments of excitement we anticipate, hope for and watch for.
HASS use Farrari's traffic light system, I understand triggered by sensors in the wheel guns. Coincidence?? :hmmm:
Quote from: GroupC on April 10, 2018, 03:08:33 PM
Clearly you don't remember Gilles Villeneuve then...?!
it's the random moments of excitement we anticipate, hope for and watch for.
Actually ! I do :) and I'd best not say what I think of that personality, , , else I'll be derailing your topic even more :laugh3: :-[
It was NPN's thoughts that set me off down the "boring" route.
Sorry :) please carry on with your unsafe releasing topic.
PS more reading, it seems that the newer 2010 'ban' on re-fueling was by discussion and agreement among the team owners that the benefits (spectacle - excitement) were not justified by the extra costs, not by the fire dangers.
So, I learned a lot, thanks for raising the topic.
Quote from: MJKERR on April 09, 2018, 07:06:35 PM
Quote from: njee20 on April 09, 2018, 01:36:28 PMYou talk as if you know definitively he's getting a penalty at the next race? Seems they've been fined €50,000, but I've seen no mention of that, and why would they issue a grid penalty purely for the mismatched tyres?
Advised during the race the incident would be investigated at the end of the race
Fine / Penalty, action has been taken
Had the car left the pit stop, which it did, then penalty is applied (that's the regulations)
The team noticed the issue, told the driver to stop, and the plan was to push the car back to pitstop
Had the car returned to the race then a penalty would have applied, but it will now be applied at next race
As a drive through penalty cannot be applied a minimum 5 place grid penalty may be applied
A decision needs to be taken by Thursday
As expected absolutely no grid penalties or mention thereof. Would've been a curious penalty.
Shame Raikkonen didn't hold on for pole in China.
Quote from: njee20 on April 15, 2018, 10:23:26 AM
As expected absolutely no grid penalties or mention thereof. Would've been a curious penalty.
Yes, a next race penalty was not applied
However a penalty was applied, in the form of a financial penalty
Had the car remained in the race then some other form of penalty would also have applied
A next race penalty could have been applied, as above
How do you know?! There's no precedent (indeed the opposite), and I saw no mention of that at all at any point.
The fine had already been applied when you said they were still mulling over a grid penalty.