Hi Guys
I seem to have broken the forum rules, being an american modeller I am used to posting on US forums where they are only too glad of updates of models I and others have in the pipeline. It is also great for designers to get things right by using the forums as a sounding board.
I have removed the offending post.
Since being the designer and seller [even at a loss]I cannot see how I can comply with the forums rules, therefor I cannot give you any further information.
Alexander
This is a really interesting project, I was discussing it with a friend earlier, may I suggest you post it on the 3D printing forum on RMWeb (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/180-3d-printing-laser-cutting-cad-cnc/), I for one would like to follow it, and you'll be allowed to post information there!
Quote from: njee20 on March 08, 2017, 07:21:34 PM
This is a really interesting project, I was discussing it with a friend earlier, may I suggest you post it on the 3D printing forum on RMWeb (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/180-3d-printing-laser-cutting-cad-cnc/), I for one would like to follow it, and you'll be allowed to post information there!
Seconded! Its a shame you doing all the hard work without getting some views on it!
Thanks for the clarification Paul, I had assumed this was for similar reasons to Arran's KTA announcement, which wasn't allowed as it was "advertising".
I, for one, would encourage any and all manufacturers to post (be they a one man cottage industry or a major industry player), but understand with the Trojan you were held 'responsible' to a degree because people assume the forum endorses models. Personally, I think that's an odd assumption, but appreciate you're in an invidious position.
Quote from: njee20 on March 08, 2017, 07:31:06 PM
I, for one, would encourage any and all manufacturers to post (be they a one man cottage industry or a major industry player),
Easy to say, but at the risk of repeating what was said before, if you let all-and-sundry advertise for free how would you pay for the server space, etc when all your paying advertisers refuse to pay up due to unfairness? The donations ordinary members make to forum funds help to keep it going, and we're thankful for every penny, but we need the paying advertisers as well otherwise there is no NGF.
Paul
I can understand that it does make sense if I ever got around to putting my models up I'd totally be up for giving some of the profit to the forum!
I missed "to post updates" in there, I obviously wouldn't suggest the forum is a free-for-all of stealth adverts, but I personally don't see what bad comes from posts like this including links (aside from Paul's valid point), it's clearly a non-commercial enterprise with interest.
Anyway, I'll leave it there.
The only thing i asked politely was for you not to post prices and links to purchasing the items, ..... Yes - nowhere on my post was a link. Strangely if I look at the thread "Shapeways - useful links" it seems to me anyway to contradict no advertising.
at no point were you told that you couldnt have an APT thread @3rdboxcar (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4787) ...... Yes.... but how could I have a thread and not refer to the fact that I am the designer and seller!!!!
I also pointed out that you could indeed advertise if you wanted to peddle your items here. .... No - I suggest you read what you wrote to me.
I feel the need to share with you all, as the statement above by the OP posted is quite untrue.... is it? - I suggest you read the above line before making false statements
and being a little more careful towards our members after the Trojan issue... I wish I had the time to write such a detailed post as some kind of trojan issue.
The mods are damned if we do and damned if we dont it would seem! ..... Easy to say when you are a moderator and make a public statement taht does not match what you sent privately.
Quote"Please read the forum rules and regulations, due to some unfortunate issues recently, only bonafide traders are allowed to sell and advertise their products on this site.
Whilst posting pictures and threads relating to your work is acceptable, prices and any links to third party selling sites are not unless you are an "advertiser"
Nobody said that you had posted a link, it was advice. You did however include prices in your thread which is against our Code of Conduct.
If you have a problem then you are more than welcome to resolve it with me via PM.
3rd boxcar,
Despite your interaction with the moderators over whether you broke the rules and by how much, please don't be disheartened as there are many of us out there looking forward to seeing progress and the possibility of your project coming to fruition. Whilst it is not for me to set policy for the forum, I am dismayed that this has degenerated from a worthwhile and interesting project to a public slanging match.
I truly hope that you continue the progression of the project and can find a way to regale us with tales of progress and success...as I, for one, remain a supporter of your APT-P project.....more power to your CAD!!
Best Regards,
Stu from EGDL.
Quote from: StufromEGDL on March 08, 2017, 10:35:53 PM
3rd boxcar,
Despite your interaction with the moderators over whether you broke the rules and by how much, please don't be disheartened as there are many of us out there looking forward to seeing progress and the possibility of your project coming to fruition. Whilst it is not for me to set policy for the forum, I am dismayed that this has degenerated from a worthwhile and interesting project to a public slanging match.
I truly hope that you continue the progression of the project and can find a way to regale us with tales of progress and success...as I, for one, remain a supporter of your APT-P project.....more power to your CAD!!
Best Regards,
Stu from EGDL.
Agree with this. I'm really looking forward to seeing this project progress and do hope you post further updates. Perhaps the moderators could apply some common sense when upholding the code of conduct. Perhaps this could be considered in the future.
Anyway, looking forward to the next exciting instalment!
Keep up the good work 3rd boxcar!
Best regards,
Jeremy
Quote from: cornish trains jez on March 08, 2017, 10:44:17 PM
Perhaps the moderators could apply some common sense when upholding the code of conduct.
If you have a problem with the Code of Conduct kindly take it up with Tank instead of throwing cheap insults at the Moderating Team.
Paul
Quote from: cornish trains jez on March 08, 2017, 10:44:17 PM
Perhaps the moderators could apply some common sense when upholding the code of conduct. Perhaps this could be considered in the future.
Could you please explain this to me? :scowl: If the rules are not followed then we just turn a blind eye to it?! We didn't delete the post, the OP did after receiving a Private Message the next morning.
We're happy to allow all projects and have supported many. A private discussion which was instigated could have solved all of this being put on the main forum. I happily support cottage industries and anyone who makes models for no profit. I think we were the first to support Project Railway Honour and Revolution without asking for a penny, as well as many other smaller projects.
It clearly says in numerous places not to advertise without permission, so just ask. :thumbsup:
Again, happy to talk about it, and if it's not for profit then there will be no issue.
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2017, 07:06:15 AM
Quote from: cornish trains jez on March 08, 2017, 10:44:17 PM
Perhaps the moderators could apply some common sense when upholding the code of conduct. Perhaps this could be considered in the future.
Again, happy to talk about it, and if it's not for profit then there will be no issue.
Tank,
If you had read the post correctly by the OP you would you would have noted that he mentioned that he would be at a loss regardless so clearly not looking to make a profit. Also the price he quoted was more of a suggested price than a firm advert to offer the product at that price so clearly not advertising. If he had added links to each product then I agree under the rules that would be taking the biscuit.
While I agree rules need to be adhered to, I still believe that each case should be looked at individually and judged seperately, thus applying common sense by the moderators.
Anyway, enough said, let's hope 3rd boxcar continues to post updates here.
Best regards,
Jeremy
I really don't know how I can become clearer:-
QuoteWe do not allow businesses to sell or advertise their goods on the forum without permission from the Admins - unless they are already paying to advertise on the forum.
Members JUST need to send me a PM to discuss it. That is the rule!
Perhaps Tank and the Mom's need (on a new thread) to explain where they draw the line as to what constitutes advertising?
Is a thread on a 3d printed model together with Shapeways page an advert?
Can a manufacturer announce a new product here without being acused of advertising or are all new products only to be put on NSF by independent third parties? If so, how do you prove independence?
Without some more clarification projects like Boxcar's APT will be lost to other forums.
Happy modeling.
Steven B
Quote from: Steven B on March 09, 2017, 11:05:19 AMIs a thread on a 3d printed model together with Shapeways page an advert?
Can a manufacturer announce a new product here without being acused of advertising or are all new products only to be put on NSF by independent third parties? If so, how do you prove independence?
To be fair, Tank's been clear. It's all advertising, including independent third parties, unless you've sought permission, in which case it's fine. Clearly some people think that's overly draconian, but that is the rule.
Quote from: Steven B on March 09, 2017, 11:05:19 AM
Perhaps Tank and the Mom's need (on a new thread) to explain where they draw the line as to what constitutes advertising?
Why? It's already quite clear
QuoteIs a thread on a 3d printed model together with Shapeways page an advert?
Yes, because by posting a Shapeways page/link you are inviting people to purchase said item.
QuoteCan a manufacturer announce a new product here without being acused of advertising ...
No, because it's the same thing.
Paul
I have a great deal of sympathy with the Mods here.
The Rules for
Advertising On The NGF amount to half a side of A4. The
NGF Code of Conduct (which I wish had been locked from the start, before being mudding by 'Hello' type posts for which there is IMHO a better suited thread:
Welcome to the NGF!) amounts to two sides of A4.
So I can find two and half sides of A4 covering the Rules. By joining the NGF, I effectively enter into a contract with the Rules being the terms of that contract. If I look at the terms of any other contract to which I'm a party I'll find enough to fill reams of A4.
Without the minutia of detailed legal blurb one finds in a
professional contract, I think there will inevitably be some grey areas here. Areas were Tank and the Mods feel the rules are clear, but were some members are unclear - perhaps a member fails to grasp a subtlety in the meaning/intent of a rule, which is obvious to the author and upholders of that rule. I thought I understood the rules, but then this has me thinking...
Quote from: Sprintex on March 09, 2017, 01:26:34 PM
Quote from: Steven B on March 09, 2017, 11:05:19 AM
Perhaps Tank and the Mom's need (on a new thread) to explain where they draw the line as to what constitutes advertising?
Why? It's already quite clear
QuoteIs a thread on a 3d printed model together with Shapeways page an advert?
Yes, because by posting a Shapeways page/link you are inviting people to purchase said item.
QuoteCan a manufacturer announce a new product here without being acused of advertising ...
No, because it's the same thing.
Paul
Because that could be interpreted to mean my thread on
Modellbahn-Kramm Bargains is a rule breaker for inviting folk to buy. And then there's the
ebay and
Bargain Basement boards. ???
One of the first things I learned in my professional engineering life was '
if in doubt, ask', and I think that might equally apply here...
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2017, 10:15:09 AM
I really don't know how I can become clearer:-
QuoteWe do not allow businesses to sell or advertise their goods on the forum without permission from the Admins - unless they are already paying to advertise on the forum.
Members JUST need to send me a PM to discuss it. That is the rule!
And yes, clearly it does apply here.
And at the end of the day, isn't this forum owned by Tank? So what are we doing arguing with him? Why are we arguing with each other? It seems to me more and more common that these spats erupt. I've been drawn into the odd spat myself. Perhaps we should have a rule that says '
when a member feels aggrieved by another member**
the aggrieved member must make a cuppa tea***
and sit while quietly dunking biscuits, before they post a reply (which perhaps ought to be a PM rather than a forum post).'?
** I think we should also remember that Mods are members too. :-*
*** Other drinks are available, but none are as refreshing as a nice cuppa tea. :beers:
I apologize for any inaccurate assumptions/presumptions I've made in this post. Please don't shoot me.
I just find it very odd that anyone could offer to sell a 3d print via this Forum's N'porium acting as a middleman, I.e. taking the buyer's money, ordering it from Shapeways then sending it on in a week or two, all within the rules of the forum. Yet, it's not possible for someone to post a link to their own Shapeways shop front and remove the risk of the middleman by ordering direct.
Perhaps the rules on selling need tweeking for 3d prints?
Happy modelling.
Steven B
I do agree with Steven, I must say. Particularly as it seems to be acceptable to say "I've designed a model, it's on Shapeways, have a look", without permission, but posting a link to said model is verboten. But, as RG says, this is Tank's forum, and no matter how daft we feel some rules may be they are there.
I missed the actual post in question but I think the mods are quite fair and open on here compared to other forums*. Not that I agree with them every single time but I respect their decision. It would be nice to see this project come to fruition and I'm sure it could.
*this is however a very "delicate" forum in my experience, but rules are rules and that is how it is as anywhere else.
Quote from: Steven B on March 09, 2017, 07:44:22 PM
I just find it very odd that anyone could offer to sell a 3d print via this Forum's N'porium acting as a middleman, I.e. taking the buyer's money, ordering it from Shapeways then sending it on in a week or two, all within the rules of the forum. Yet, it's not possible for someone to post a link to their own Shapeways shop front and remove the risk of the middleman by ordering direct.
Perhaps the rules on selling need tweeking for 3d prints?
Happy modelling.
Steven B
Come on, you're really picking at hairs here! :D
All N'porium posts are vetted, and so are the advertisers. This must be one of the safest places to buy models from because we're as careful as we can be regarding what is being sold and who from.
Again, no problem discussing with any person wishing to list what they're selling (even 3D prints!), just send me a message.
@Tank (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)
For the Forum: :thankyousign:
Warm regards
A guest in your house.
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2017, 08:16:34 PM
All N'porium posts are vetted, and so are the advertisers. This must be one of the safest places to buy models from because we're as careful as we can be regarding what is being sold and who from.
I see your point, but if I were a mod I'd much rather someone get a 3d print direct from Shapeways, rather than take responsibility for a potentially dodgy sale that I've authorised.
Are the eBay adverts vetted? I see these as being more risky tan buying from Shapeways.
Happy modelling.
Steven B
I am a mod.
I live in Australia.
I don't have any connections or business with Shapeways in the UK.
Any 3D printing I do, or our Aussie members, I'm sure, is done locally.
I'm sorry, Steven B, but I find your post offensive, especially as I live on the other side of the world and work hard to be part of the team that runs this forum.
Quote from: Bealman on March 10, 2017, 11:26:21 AM
I'm sorry, Steven B, but I find your post offensive, especially as I live on the other side of the world and work hard to be part of the team that runs this forum.
Why do you find it offensive? You might not agree with it, but it isn't offensive in anyway...
Half this thread is about an issue other than the APT (and could really do with being split into a new topic) and there is clearly an issue (it isn't always right to say thems the rules and tough - people often complain that suppliers don't participate and here we have a good example of perhaps part of why). Rather than see things as an attack, perhaps we need to see if there is a way to make things better (for everyone).
Cheers, Mike
Point taken. Thank you.
Having just stumbled across this thread, it seems to me that rather more offence has been taken than was intended. Any set of rules is bound to have grey areas in it (look at the England-Italy rugby game a couple of weeks ago!). In this case, it should be down to Tank and the mods to decide what the intention of the disputed rule was and for the rest of us to abide by their decision.
There are a number of gradations in this publicity/advertising thing, which I think could be addressed as follows:
1. "I have noticed a gap in the market for GWR sprog-wodgets and am considering manufacturing them." - goes in a thread on the main board.
2. "I am designing/making the tooling/on the point of manufacturing GWR sprog-wodgets but can't put a price on them yet." - also on the main board.
3. "I now have GWR sprog-wodgets to sell and they will cost £xx." - a request to Tank to sell them via the Nporium to see whether there is a market, possibly with a time-limit of say a year.
4. "My GWR sprog-wodgets are a huge success and I am making a mint." - take out paid advertising and help to swell the Forum's coffers.
This will no doubt still leave grey areas, but might help to clarify things a bit.
Cheers,
Chris
The problem there is that we have examples of 1 and 2 not being allowed. A manufacturer cannot come on here and say "I have this forthcoming product", without having sought permission. There are myriad problems with this, particularly when it's one person who needs to approve this (even if Tank will just say "yeah, sure" 99% of the time), it's a bottleneck and a barrier to participation, which isn't really what a forum needs.
We had this exact discussion less than a month ago, here (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36448.0). That we're doing it all over again suggests to me that maybe there is something a bit wrong, and to just say "those are the rules" is a little daft, even if they're there. The rules could state that every post should begin with the letter Q, it would be very easy to enforce, but pretty stupid. I stand by the comment I made in last month's thread that people complain we don't get comments from manufacturers, but it's not entirely difficult to see why.
Quote from: Steven B on March 10, 2017, 10:48:45 AM
Quote from: Tank on March 09, 2017, 08:16:34 PM
All N'porium posts are vetted, and so are the advertisers. This must be one of the safest places to buy models from because we're as careful as we can be regarding what is being sold and who from.
I see your point, but if I were a mod I'd much rather someone get a 3d print direct from Shapeways, rather than take responsibility for a potentially dodgy sale that I've authorised.
I don't know where you get your mad ideas from but we Moderators take NO responsibility for "authorising" N'porium sales, or any other sales for that matter!
We check N'porium listings before they go live to make sure they comply with the rules and there are no errors, that's it. End of responsibility. Just the same as it is up to individual members whether they buy from Shapeways, Ebay or any other site goods are advertised on or linked to on the forum. We do not authorise or endorse any sale.
Paul
Quote from: red_death on March 10, 2017, 11:37:43 AM
.. Half this thread is about an issue other than the APT (and could really do with being split into a new topic) ... Cheers, Mike
Agreed. :thumbsup:
Quote from: scorpion_1925 on March 15, 2013, 01:23:02 PM
I'm working on CAD for an apt-p cause I am fascinated by oddities and prototypes. I was wondering if anyone had experience of taking a CAD model and turning it into a working n gauge model
Hi @scorpion_1925 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=840) , I can't say that I do have any such experience. But like you I too am interested in oddities and prototypes. I'm probably not fanatical enough to want to model an APT however, but I'm interested enough to want to follow this thread**. Though having seen the Rapido/Locomotion OO model, I'd break several rules for one of them. :D
** If this thread ever gets back on track. :veryangry:
Locomotion/Rapido is the APT-E, not the APT-P, the former was the experimental one, whilst the latter was the (similarly short lived) prototype model.
Quote from: njee20 on March 10, 2017, 01:20:30 PM
The problem there is that we have examples of 1 and 2 not being allowed. A manufacturer cannot come on here and say "I have this forthcoming product", without having sought permission. There are myriad problems with this, particularly when it's one person who needs to approve this (even if Tank will just say "yeah, sure" 99% of the time), it's a bottleneck and a barrier to participation, which isn't really what a forum needs.
We had this exact discussion less than a month ago, here (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36448.0). That we're doing it all over again suggests to me that maybe there is something a bit wrong, and to just say "those are the rules" is a little daft, even if they're there. The rules could state that every post should begin with the letter Q, it would be very easy to enforce, but pretty stupid. I stand by the comment I made in last month's thread that people complain we don't get comments from manufacturers, but it's not entirely difficult to see why.
Not quite true, as I've had two people in the last 24 hours write to me about putting their projects on here and I've let them. No bottle neck at all, that's just your interpretation.
As for manufacturers, I know exactly why two leading manufacturers don't post on here and it's never been anything to do with how I run this forum.
What's your overall solution then? Tell me exactly what you'd do.
Right, so in the last 24 hours there's been no bottleneck, that's a daft extrapolation to say there'll never be one. Say (hypothetically speaking, obviously wouldn't wish this on you) you were hospitalised, then what? Surely you can identify that there's a key man dependency here, and that's not good.
Exactly what would I do? I would:
1. allow all manufacturers to post 'press releases', perhaps in a dedicated part of the forum. This would include 'forthcoming product' type announcements, updates, invitations for feedback etc, prices would be fine
2. allow non-profit one man band type people to post their own creations, I think this is something far more common now we have 3D printing, allowing the likes of Vonzack, Only Me and 3rdboxcar from the APT thread to 'promote' their wares. You can't really avoid having links to Shapeways in this, it seems daft that (as far as I can tell) I can post a link to hypothetical man's wagon and say "these are good", but he can't post a thread to say "I've done these, what do you think, they're available here". Basically the same as the 3D printing forum on RMWeb.
3. not allow retailers or manufacturers to post links to their own shop without prior permission, definitely not start their own thread, bit more lax on responses to individual threads; if a shop/manufacturer wants to be proactive in saying "we have that in stock", then I don't have an issue with that. Works well on other forums I participate in.
I'm not entirely sure it needs much more than that.
I look at the forum now and I see 2 adverts: Wickness Models, advertising DCC Conversions and Equipment. They don't do the former any more, if they can't be bothered to keep their advert up to date then they're missing out. The other one is KJB models, who specialise in second hand (apparently, never used them), so you'd think they'd object more to the N'porium. The only other advert I ever conscious notice is Only Me's JUAs (?) and coal loads for HTAs.
Whilst I'm at it, and as you've invited my opinions I would:
- Massively reduce the sub forums, A-Z is a waste of time, look at how many threads get moved, clearly people don't know where to post new threads, and there's huge overlap. It would simplify your jobs massively.
- Close fewer threads, some will go off topic, they'll come back, I hate that because someone started a thread they can arbitrarily decide to close it whilst there's relevant and interesting discussion going on. Close threads for attracting spam, going irretrievably off topic or because it's resulted in arguing or personal insults
That's probably about it!
+1
:thankyousign:
Quote from: njee20 on March 10, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
1. allow all manufacturers to post 'press releases', perhaps in a dedicated part of the forum. This would include 'forthcoming product' type announcements, updates, invitations for feedback etc, prices would be fine
Quote3. not allow retailers or manufacturers to post links to their own shop without prior permission, definitely not start their own thread,
So allow manufacturers to post press releases, with prices, but not start their own thread? That's a contradiction for a start ???
Also you can't compare NGF to rmweb for the simple reason the former is funded mainly by paying advertisers and member donations (as has already been said) and the latter has a major publications PLC behind it paying for everything! What works there doesn't necessarily work here.
Paul
Quote from: njee20 on March 10, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
Right, so in the last 24 hours there's been no bottleneck, that's a daft extrapolation to say there'll never be one. Say (hypothetically speaking, obviously wouldn't wish this on you) you were hospitalised, then what? Surely you can identify that there's a key man dependency here, and that's not good.
You're quite right that I could be hospitalised or such. I did NOT say that they'd never be a bottleneck and you're surmising that there has been. Thankfully it hasn't happened and it has never been a problem in 6 years. The Global Moderator would take over my role, then Moderator.
Basically you're suggesting that ANYONE can post links to whatever site they have without anyone checking it. Anyone can put their products on the forum for sale, which would obviously reduce the amount of advertisers on the forum (more than what you've noted). This would lead to a drop in advertisers, and we're not supported by publications or owned by another company.
I quite agree with you about the Boards and Sub Boards on here. At the time a number of members were keen on it, but I have heard that some members aren't keen - especially on the mobile version of the forum.
Quote from: Sprintex on March 10, 2017, 06:31:46 PM
Quote from: njee20 on March 10, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
1. allow all manufacturers to post 'press releases', perhaps in a dedicated part of the forum. This would include 'forthcoming product' type announcements, updates, invitations for feedback etc, prices would be fine
Quote3. not allow retailers or manufacturers to post links to their own shop without prior permission, definitely not start their own thread,
So allow manufacturers to post press releases, with prices, but not start their own thread? That's a contradiction for a start ???
Not to start their own thread for selling without permission, that's entirely different from a press release announcing new/forthcoming products. I originally wrote retailers, then added manufacturers, can't decide quite where I sit on that.
Quote from: Tank on March 10, 2017, 06:41:01 PM
Quote from: njee20 on March 10, 2017, 05:35:31 PM
Right, so in the last 24 hours there's been no bottleneck, that's a daft extrapolation to say there'll never be one. Say (hypothetically speaking, obviously wouldn't wish this on you) you were hospitalised, then what? Surely you can identify that there's a key man dependency here, and that's not good.
You're quite right that I could be hospitalised or such. I did NOT say that they'd never be a bottleneck and you're surmising that there has been. Thankfully it hasn't happened and it has never been a problem in 6 years. The Global Moderator would take over my role, then Moderator.
I'm really trying to provide constructive feedback, and you're picking up on my semantics. Surely you can understand that having a process that relies on one single person is a bottleneck. You can add the word "potential" in there if it's not happened, but it will, at some point. Ok there's a hierarchy in place should you be incapacitated, you didn't say that, you've said that people have to PM you. If you're unavailable then what though? How does the Global Moderator get notified? What if you started getting 50 times as many requests?
Quote from: Tank on March 10, 2017, 06:41:01 PM
Basically you're suggesting that ANYONE can post links to whatever site they have without anyone checking it. Anyone can put their products on the forum for sale, which would obviously reduce the amount of advertisers on the forum (more than what you've noted). This would lead to a drop in advertisers, and we're not supported by publications or owned by another company.
I'm suggesting that cottage industry types should be able to post links to their stuff, yes. I see no reason why people should feel you're endorsing or checking anything that is posted on here, and I don't think it should be your responsibility to personally vet every post. Links to Shapeways products (say) are not "sold" via the forum, you're not a shop. There's obviously that attitude among some on here that you are in some way responsible, I'm not sure how you combat that. I think it's in part a symptom of the forum that people are lulled into a false sense of security. Perhaps I just want the forum to be something it isn't, I'm not saying my ideas are good or right, purely my feedback, off the cuff, so there may be holes.
I'm (perhaps wrongly) assuming that 'success' for the forum would be for it to be much bigger, so advice around encouraging manufacturers is based on that. If you are happy with the very tight knit 'community' feel it has currently, then don't do anything.
FWIW this (http://singletrackworld.com/forum/) is the forum in which I participate most (about 25,000 posts), it's a cycling forum, but with more posts in the chat section if anyone fancies a look, there are common threads with here - what are you listening to etc. It strives to do all the same things as here, but is left to be far more organic; you'll find few locked threads, there is some arguing, but it works. Very heavily reliant on advertising revenue, they're vastly more intrusive than here but members can subscribe for a monthly fee (I do) to have it advert-free.
I know I've clashed with a number on here, which suggests I'm the 'problem' rather than the forum, but I conduct myself in the same way as I would in real life, perhaps that's just different to others on here, rightly or wrongly! To me, the NGF feels like "if Disney did a forum", there's a slightly peculiar niceness I find a little false. "Political" posts getting deleted when there's less political leaning than the BBC is quite strange IMO. People will clash when they have opinions, and I for one have no issue with this.
I'm in no way bashing the forum, the mods, members, or anything else. I like it here, I wouldn't post otherwise. Just giving my opinion. Feel free to do with it as you please!
Quote from: njee20 on March 10, 2017, 08:02:06 PM
To me, the NGF feels like "if Disney did a forum", there's a slightly peculiar niceness I find a little false. "Political" posts getting deleted when there's less political leaning than the BBC is quite strange IMO. People will clash when they have opinions, and I for one have no issue with this.
Well that's just insulted a whole chunk of the membership! Yes Chris did strive to create a model railway forum that was different to the others out there, and believe it or not most people who join here actually like it that way. We get many comments about how nice and friendly it is here with very little of the political posturing that frequents most mainly male-orientated pursuits, and that's because we don't allow it and deal with those who try to deliberately cause arguments. In fact, many regard this place as a "safe haven" where they can come to chat about trains or other topics and escape from the political and other rubbish we get bombarded with by the media in general on a daily basis.
If being nice to other people is so 'false' to you then that explains why your somewhat abrasive and sarcastic manner has caused clashes, it doesn't excuse it though by any means. Maybe you're missing the point that most members here ARE nice, polite, friendly people who like to help others and don't feel the need to argue to prove anything. That is also presumably why many hundreds have not jumped in to have their say in this thread? Because on the whole they like it here and are happy with the way it is run, maybe not 100% happy with absolutely
everything (and that goes for me too incidentally, but like many I appreciate it's Chris' forum to run his way, and I'm happy to help enforce HIS rules, not mine), but happy enough to compromise a little out of mutual respect for what other people might want as well.
Paul
I didn't seek to insult anyone, and I'm not entirely sure how you can construe that I have. I have made an observation about the forum, because Chris asked what I'd do. I proffered my opinion. I said that's what it is. I've not called out specific members or groups of members, so if you've taken offence then I think you're looking to be offended.
I'm not saying I want the place to be anarchy, obviously. There's a big difference between being nice and it being a little artificial IMO. Again, my opinion, I'm glad members find it a "safe haven", I guess that comes down to my point that perhaps I want the forum to be something it isn't. I want to discuss n gauge stuff. Unilateral discussions are a little pointless! What I would deem a discussion seems by some to be seen as arguing.
If I'm "abrasive and sarcastic" that's probably because I am in real life, not because I'm seeking to cause problems.
Edit: I'm going to stop now. I was asked my opinion, I gave it. You clearly don't like me and seem intent on dismissing it out of hand. I know I'm not alone in my thoughts as I've discussed it with a number of friends I've met via forums (this and others), but I'm glad the forum exists and occupies its own place.
I haven't taken too much notice of this thread as it doesn't interest me much and seems to be going nowhere. But its been going on so long now I feel the need to make a comment or two.
I'm not very bright but the rules of the forum seem pretty clear to me. I'm sure, if the rules are not clear to anyone, it would be a good idea to PM Tank or another moderator for clarification. That's assuming each poster has read the rules before posting in the first place!
This forum, in my opinion, has a very good balance in allowed/unallowed content and has a general 'nice' feel to it - I'm sure this encourages new membership and keeps the existing membership interested and happy. Surely that's what its all about.
The moderators, in my opinion do a great job in keeping the balance. It is impossible to please everyone all of the time.
As far as this forum is concerned - if it aint broke - don't fix it!!
I'm going back to look at the interesting stuff now. Hopefully this thread will just fade away and others will also go back to the interesting stuff also.
:thankyousign: :beers:
Sorry Paul but that is exactly part of the problem. I'm with Nick in that Mods do: lock threads too often; censor too much; and get too personally involved. Being a Mod is a difficult job at the best of times but is not made any easier by taking things so personally or making personal comments about other people's posts. The job of a Mod is to moderate not make things worse!
Cheers, Mike
The job of a Moderator is primarily to uphold the rules of the forum for the good of all, and the rules are clearly laid out for all to see, so if a few members decide to flout those rules then they should expect us to censor posts and lock threads. If those people just stuck to the rules like the vast majority do we wouldn't have to.
I will reiterate that we get many comments and messages, especially from new members, about how welcoming, friendly, and different this forum is and it far outweighs the few complaints we get.
Paul
Time for my two-penneth worth.
I was fascinated by the original "APT" thread, having travelled on it at 130mph. I digress.
There has to be forum rules. There has to be a dividing line between "look what I'm trying to acheive" and "I've acheived it, want to by one?". I do, however, think that there has to be a bit of consideration to the "grey" dividing line between those running it as a profit making business and those doing it as a hobby who would like to share the fruits of their labour just to be "nice".
I don't think anyone is deliberately trying to flout the rules, I suspect they just don't realise that a particular rule applies to them because they don't see themselves as a "trader" as they aren't looking to make a profit from anything.
I don't think that a topic drifting a little off track is flouting the rules, but I've seen a number where they've been effectively "stamped" on for just that.
Sometimes this forum feels a little like "The Prisoner", it all looks beautiful on the surface as long as everyone toes the line, but beware the white ball if you step out of line just a little.
I too find this forum somewhat "sterile". The moderation can be somewhat over eager, at the slightest hint of disagreement or minor detour of topic, the hand of the moderator appears. I feel the moderators could make their lives a lot easier by just lightening up a little with the virtual red pen. Disagreement is natural, minor detours happen in every day conversation, a forum should represent everyday conversation, should it not?
Some of the responses from the moderators have been somewhat terse, I don't think it's necessary to engage in snippy arguments with "posters". If that happened in other threads, they'd be "moderated". You have the Forum rules, please explain them where necessary, but avoid getting involved in on-forum arguments. That's not necessary and comes across as petty. On a large forum such as this there will always be bitching about moderation. It's going to happen, you need to be able to rise above it, not sink down into it.
On other subjects, this is not an easy forum for some of us to use. Working out where to post threads is a nightmare. There are so many subsections and boards that a large proportion get "moved", that should tell you there is a problem. In some ways this forum is a victim of it's own success, for an "outsider" (newish member), it comes across as quite "clique-y", this is a natural progression, but it makes it difficult to find out information. Someone once told me to basically "go away and find out somewhere else" and I often see people being told "go on look at so-and-so's threads", but if you try to find the item it is in amongst 100's of posts. If you are a long-time member I'm sure you can remember the posts in question, but trying to find them from scratch is a nightmare.
That's all for now.
This forum is now into it's 7th year. It has grown from one guy's vision to being a significant forum with a larger user base. All credit to Tank for his efforts in setting this up and keeping it running. :thumbsup:
However, it has changed over the years - and discussions like this are inevitable, and essential, for the forum to continue to thrive and to grow.
I should add, that if someone is going to effectively ask a member 'well what would you do?', be prepared for them to do just that. As the floor appears to be open; here are some comments - not just for Tank and the Mods, but for members in general.
- Follow the RMWeb lead for moderators and make the moderator accounts anonymous (Mod 1, Mod 2 etc.). I believe at least some of the mods on RMWeb are regular users in their own right, contributing to the forum as users under their own user names. They have separate accounts to do their 'modding' thing... All too often a user who is also a moderator says, or does, something which calls into question their impartiality. I'm afraid I have seen more than one thread where there has been a more intense discussion, and the mods have slammed down publicly on just one of the parties - in some cases wholly unjustifiably.
- Another vote for simplifying the number of sub-forums. Too many threads are shunted about the place, in some cases for rather spurious reasons. If there is ambiguity, you have too many sub-forums
- People get offended - it is called life. To try to ease everyone's ruffled feelings will be a battle you will lose, so just accept people disagree. For what is is worth, I quite enjoy the rumbustiousness of RMWeb where there can be discussions and, yes, sometimes arguments. Sure, read the riot act, but threads do get locked for too early in some cases. Oh yes, and writing your posts in capital letters just emphasises you are losing your argument; please don't do it - it is extremely annoying.
- And finally (whilst we are righting the wrongs of the world), and yes perhaps controversially, when a member throws their toys out of their pram and announces they are leaving, please stop rallying around telling them how valued they are and how they will be missed. In most cases it is because they are having a sulk, and all the well-meaning words do is stroke their ego, but won't stop them from doing it again in the future. I see it on many forums - most are just childish rants that simply should be ignored; however I have seen some absolute humdingers in the past, which are worth it purely for their entertainment value!
There are some on here who are quite waspish - and I can be one of them from time to time. There also those with a sharp, sometimes cutting sense of humour; often the same individuals. These are often the characters - when I see a thread with one of their contributions on it, I am drawn in. You need these characters, they give the forum life and interest. They will argue, they will contradict, they will certainly be direct; but it will be reasoned and well argued. Without them, the forum will be a sterile and soulless place; which would be a tremendous pity.
Although some people think there are too many categories/sub categories I think it might be an idea to have another sub category under general discussion called 'Rants'.
Threads such as this one could be moved to that sub category so that those of us not very interested in the content of such 'Rants' could filter them out and concentrate on more interesting topics. You know - N gauge and railway stuff and jokes and good natured banter.
Now wouldn't that be nice?
:NGF: :thankyousign: :beers:
Quote from: austinbob on March 11, 2017, 04:23:30 PM
Although some people think there are too many categories/sub categories I think it might be an idea to have another sub category under general discussion called 'Rants'.
Threads such as this one could be moved to that sub category so that those of us not very interested in the content of such 'Rants' could filter them out and concentrate on more interesting topics. You know - N gauge and railway stuff and jokes and good natured banter.
Now wouldn't that be nice?
:NGF: :thankyousign: :beers:
...and I suppose you think this is a helpful interjection?
If you're not interested, then don't read it. You obviously are, as you've posted. It was becoming a constuctive post for the good of the forum, far from a rant.
Quote from: austinbob on March 11, 2017, 04:23:30 PM
Although some people think there are too many categories/sub categories I think it might be an idea to have another sub category under general discussion called 'Rants'.
Threads such as this one could be moved to that sub category so that those of us not very interested in the content of such 'Rants' could filter them out and concentrate on more interesting topics. You know - N gauge and railway stuff and jokes and good natured banter.
Now wouldn't that be nice?
:NGF: :thankyousign: :beers:
Aren't rants for the 'Angry Thread'? Last time I saw it, it was on about telephone hold music and customer service.
Of course we can all sit back and go with the flow. But I hope the contributions to this thread are seen as members trying to make positive suggestions on the future of the forum. Believe it or not we do care about the forum, or we would not be making these comments...
There are a lot of threads that don't interest me, on here and elsewhere. I don't read them, and I can't really be bothered to post on them saying how they don't interest me...that strikes me as being somewhat counter-intuitive.
+1
:thankyousign:
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on March 11, 2017, 03:49:12 PM
There are some on here who are quite waspish - and I can be one of them from time to time. There also those with a sharp, sometimes cutting sense of humour; often the same individuals. These are often the characters - when I see a thread with one of their contributions on it, I am drawn in. You need these characters, they give the forum life and interest. They will argue, they will contradict, they will certainly be direct; but it will be reasoned and well argued. Without them, the forum will be a sterile and soulless place; which would be a tremendous pity.
Just to add a sterile and soulless note to this: the people described above are generally the ones I ignore. It seems to me that one should replace the word 'you' with 'I' in the above paragraph.
Note to mods and admins: carry on.
Generally the structure of the forum is fine...Perhaps having a folder or sub board or whatever they are called by class in the train surgery section would be helpful eg a board for class 47 or a type of steamer to be easily browsed through if we have a problem with a loco would be welcomed
Quote from: Yet_Another on March 11, 2017, 05:40:32 PM
It seems to me that one should replace the word 'you' with 'I' in the above paragraph.
You may be surprised to see that I fully agree with you on this point. I do need people of this ilk in my life. I need to be challenged and contradicted at times. In fact, in my line of work, it is crucial. If they did not exist, nothing would change. I hope we all want a vibrant place to visit, that evolves and develops.
One little note. Tank I am sure will correct me if I am wrong, but I recall part of the reason for being for this forum was a frustration at a lack of N gauge participation and coverage on other forums. He didn't just carry on, he set this place up. He felt he could do better, and he certainly did. As I said earlier, this thread is a great opportunity to help improve and evolve.
Neither surprised nor otherwise. I'd hope that anyone of reasonable intelligence would recognise when they were talking from personal experience rather than projecting onto others. I was (hopefully) gently interjecting to put forward a point of view of someone who really doesn't like confrontation or argument.
Speaking from the perspective of having moderated on another forum (not model railways), it is a near impossible and thankless task - you will never please all the people all of the time so I do appreciate the difficult decisions that have to be made.
Having said that, I don't think either side comes out of the original APT thread with much credit... To me, there did seem to be a rather inflexible "rules is rules" stance and a reluctance to apply any common sense driven flexibility on a case-by-case basis on the part of the moderation team, but the over-reaction by the developer was over the top and unnecessary. Either party could have nipped it in the bud much sooner and avoided the situation ballooning in to the thread we have now.
As for the Rule in question regarding unpaid for promotion on the forum, I understand and appreciate it is there for 'revenue protection' - protecting paying advertisers from non-paying competitors, but there is a very fine line between members providing a valuable service to their fellow members in the form of information about products being available and promoting those products.
Potentially every thread about an exhibition could be classified as "advertising" (do/have any Exhibitions paid for adverts??); as could a thread discussing that manufacturer A has announced they intend to produce class ZYX; and every post in the 'Bargain Hunters' thread is absolutely outside the rules.
If a member posts a question "Does anyone produce a Left-handed size 12 widget" and I am able to supply, strictly adhering to the rules I should post the reply "Yes - but I'm not allowed to tell you where you can get them" which doesn't help the member asking the question.
Followed to the extreme, arguably we shouldn't mention any manufacturer by name, but to do so would be to the detriment of the membership and devalues the forum as a whole.
I would favour a more pragmatic approach where there is no problem in informing the membership that a product is available (regardless of whether they are the supplier or a customer) provided it is not constantly being pushed and the member is contributing to the forum in other ways, and has not joined with the sole purpose of promoting their products.
Just my two pennorth - I have been following this thread, although I did not see the post that started it all. I think PLD has got it right. Over the last few days I have been extolling the virtues of a certain distribution board and I thought to myself that, taking it to the limit, was I in breach of the rules as I was, in effect, advertising an item, although I was gaining no benefit. I have in the past, like a lot of members, mentioned items that I have bought and passed on my recommendations. We have to be able to pass on such recommendations. Anyway, as PLD said, "you will never please all the people all of the time so I do appreciate the difficult decisions that have to be made." I do applaud the Mods for looking after such an excellent forum. :beers:
Has the problem with the (none/late) delivery of the GWR Trojan made the moderators too wary about forum members selling 3d printed models?
Had the Trojan project been a Shapeways link and a name of the required chassis (together with suggestions on where to buy it) then non of the problems we saw would have happened.
Surely the whole point of this forum is to promote N Gauge modelling, and to get help and advice to improve your own modelling. Part of this includes showing your on-going projects. The regular updates of projects such as Innovationgame's TrainShedProject (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34324.0) are what makes this forum great.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of threads where product recommendations are made. Are all these advertising?
It's crazy that a forum member can put time and effort into updating their projects on here but aren't allowed to post a link to their Shapeways store without first asking permission (especially as anyone else could add that link on their behalf!).
Surely purchasing from Shapeways is safer than buying from an individual privately? If it doesn't arrive or had been printed incorrectly then Shapeways will refund or re-print without quibbling. Thousands of users across the world user Shapeways, they wouldn't if they were unreliable.
I would like to suggest that Tank and the mods allow individuals to post links to their own Shapeways projects without asking for permission. If they then go on to sell their prints as a more complete item by including wheels, etches or transfers then yes, they should be asking permission.
Would it be possible to set up a moderated "Small Traders" portion of the board where information on new products can be posted? This would mean that any moderator could authorise them, thus removing Tank as the sole person responsible (should he fall under a bus, loose internet or his marbles!). Anyone making regular/repeated adverts could then be politely reminded that a contribution to forum funds would be welcome!
Happy modelling.
Steven B.
Thanks for the comments. I am reading them, just having a busy week.
Also, thanks very much for the PM's. :thumbsup: