Carlisle, current and ex-pat ?

[MalcolmInN]

Continued from here http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=25702.msg277289#msg277289

Craig said >"btw what part of carlisle were you brought up in? its a small city..."

and Luke said >"Carlisle eh... More than three people in there is a bit crowded"

Aw go on, it isnt that small,
although I think when I lived there it was the smallest "City" in England (or the UK ?)
Three people ! Is that a quorum, does it give us common running rights on each other's railway !

In a small 1930s housing estate sandwiched between Warwick Rd and Greystone Rd. in the Vee of that junction.
Play ground was the fields between there and Wetheral where there was a rickety old viaduct across the river ?Eden.
It would shake and rattle so violently when a train thundered across (gert big J39s I suppose they were ?) that we were afeared it would all fall apart, so we did our spotting from the safety of the station and used the attached rusty old footway only when we thought a train was not due !

It figured in one of M.Portillo's journeys recently all poshed up, painted, pointed and by all accounts a treasure of the locality !
Mostly all the fields now gone under a motorway,  Botcherby and an industrial estate I think after a quick google view.

Any other current or ex- Carlislians ?
Any ghosts of Canal Shed or the long lost roundhouse of the Lanky Shed ?
Pardon me, I feel a tear coming on , , , 

[Jonny]

I live up here in sunny Carlisle.  Not originally from here though but love the railway history.  Where else could you see seven different pre grouping companies in one station or see streamlined duchesses rub shoulders with A4's.
When you say the lanky shed do you actually mean the lms roundhouse at upperby.
Did you forget the old goods shed on London Road that stands on the very sight of Carlisle's first train station back in the Newcastle and Carlisle railway era. The first company here.

I am currently planning on an gauge layout of the Silloth bay line in lner days. I almost have my first loco finished a J39 with sound and lights. To pull Gresley 51'1 non vestibule coaching stock. My first station or maybe stations will be Burgh-by-Sands and kirkandrews.

The holiday line.

[MalcolmInN]

sunny,
,
seven different pre grouping companies in one station or see streamlined duchesses rub shoulders with A4's.
,

When you say the lanky shed do you actually mean the lms roundhouse at upperby.
,
Did you forget the old goods shed on London Road
The first company here.
,
Silloth bay line in lner days. I almost have my first loco finished a J39 with sound and lights. To pull Gresley 51'1 non vestibule coaching stock. My first station or maybe stations will be Burgh-by-Sands and kirkandrews.

The holiday line.

Very interesting !

Dont remember sunny !
,
Yes, indeed so, although the A4s were not exactly common, but one or two did lose ! their way somewheres about Edinburgh and stray onto the Waverly route
That was the first time I met Union of S.Africa, in Canal Shed.
,
I believe so, but I only learned later by Googling that it was officially (?) known as Upperby, we ( I mean us lads) knew it as the lanky shed, unless I am horribly confused, 'twas an awful long time ago! I am talking early 50s.
It was certainly ex-LMS, and home shed, I think, to City of Carlisle ?
,
Nope, didnt forget the goods shed, didnt know it ! You dont know what you've lost till it has gone ! Then one can only google and find those things that one should have paid attention to but did not !
But actually my excuse is, one of my grandma's houses and another where my aunt lived were high up on terraces overlooking that London road region which was just so full of a tangle of railway !
And all the ineteresing suff was meanwhile happening in Upperby (there now look what you've done !) and Kingmoor, lesser stuff like the Newcastle line was small beer ! Although the ex-Midland shed at Durran Hill ex- or currently Settle line was often visited just cos it was so close to me.
,

Ah, Silloth the holiday line
I'll follow you with great interest,
that was weekends and bank holiday destination.
Real ( I mean annual ! ) holidays were in the opposite direction to Hexham and Allandale and points east.
I think
LNER Gresley 51'1 non vestibule coaching stock.
pre-dates me.
I remember muddy dirty maroon? compatmented no corridor to Silloth
and muddy dirty maroon? compartments off corridors to Newcastle ??
Could be wrong.
There is a website somewhere with a section called "Silloth, The Holliday Line" by a Harraby lad. But last I saw it wasnt being maintained so it is missing the Newcastle section.

So, that's four of us, deffo a quorum

EDIT :  ^ "to City of Carlisle "
which I only once ever managed to see there !

[Jonny]

Yes. Upperby was home to city of Carlisle.

London Road Shed is still there at the moment but is due to be sold soon. I am trying to obtain the track that remains so that it can be re used at Kirkby Stephen East where I volunteer.

The web site your thinking of is by Brian Irwin. But no he hasn't updated it for a,while.

I am looking forward to creating this missing link  to cumbrias lost railway.

Many thanks
Jon

[MalcolmInN]

Yes. Upperby was home to city of Carlisle.

London Road Shed is still there at the moment but is due to be sold soon. I am trying to obtain the track that remains so that it can be re used at Kirkby Stephen East where I volunteer.

The web site your thinking of is by Brian Irwin. But no he hasn't updated it for a,while.

I am looking forward to creating this missing link  to cumbrias lost railway.

Many thanks
Jon

Thinking about it, the Lanky Shed :
I said, what us lads called it, but I guess we would not have called it that if the railway workers had not already been calling it that ?
So the question is, was that what the Upperby workers called it, or was it a disrespectful tem by others at other sheds ?
I suppose it was a leftover from the L&Y Railway, did it date that far back ?

Yes, Brian that's the one. I think he went on to become interested in the railways round Keswick ? I did once correspond via email, but lost it and he no longer has it on the Silloth site, so I cant chivvy him about the lost Newcastle railway pages lol!
and at our age one is nervous of enquiring what ever happend to so&so ! !

> "cumbrias lost railway" !!
ooops, shirly u mean the lost railways of Cumberland ? ( oh I suppose we'd better include Westmorland else they'll get upset lol! )

>" Kirkby Stephen East where I volunteer"
sounds interesting, website ? save me googling

[Geoff]

He by gum now you have me going back Cumberland, Westmorland and not forgetting Lancashire as it was, all broken and for what, same as the railways.

Malcom and Jonny thanks for fetching up Carlisle and the lost railways.

[MalcolmInN]

and not forgetting Lancashire as it was,

Ooops, mea culpa, I forgot about that funny little bit of the Lancashire empire !
I shouldnt have cos we did venture forth from time to time to Barrow-in-Furness, but 'twas a long long way away

[Jonny]

Malcolm.

The L&Y never came up as far as Carlisle.  you could be thinking of Lancaster and Carlisle railway though. Which upperby sight would of been. hence the term lanky.  Furthest north l and y came was probably Hellifield i think. The L&Y is another interest of mine. Currently building an em layout of Holmfirth in L and Y days.

To be correct i guess you wouldn't call it cumbrias lost railways as cumbria didn't exist back then. I just reused the term that the cumbrian railway society use.lol

Kirkby Stephen East
http://www.kirkbystepheneast.co.uk/


Cheers

Jonny

[MalcolmInN]

The L&Y never came up as far as Carlisle.  you could be thinking of Lancaster and Carlisle railway though.
,
I just reused the term that the cumbrian railway society use.lol

Ah I see, yes interesting, thanks will read up, ,

Just for clarity, it wasnt so much what I was thinking of back then,
more to do with reading Brian and other sites about Upperby and wondering why we had called it the Lanky if you see what I mean.
(maybe even the Lankie ! Not sure we were even literate in those days ? lol!)

Of course it is always possible that there was another shed/location in the Carlisle area that was the real Lanky shed, and I have misnamed, all these years, the Upperby roundhouse as it ? Long shot ?
But I think there were only the four sheds ? Canal, Kingmoor, Upperby and Durran Hill (this latter I see listed as a sub of Kingmoor ?, wheras I would have thought it came more in Upperby's sphere ? )
And then not to forget the Silloth Shed as a sub of Canal.
Gosh my brain hurts !

re Cumbria, I wont hold it against you but I may need to have words with that society lol!

As for LNER predating me I may have to amend that ! More later maybe

[Jonny]

Copied from the cumbrian railway society page.

3. Carlisle - Border Rail City
Early railway development in Carlisle took place very haphazardly with every successive arriving railway company having to come to terms with the positions already established by its predecessors. First on the scene was the Newcastle & Carlisle Railway, opening its London Road station in July 1836, and the branch to Canal basin extending round the then south side of the city in the following March. In the mid-1840s the Maryport & Carlisle, the Lancaster & Carlisle and the Caledonian added lines to other points of the compass, further confining the city on its south and west sides.

In the pre-railway era a canal had been built to connect Carlisle with the sea at Port Carlisle, and in 1854 this was converted into another railway which a few years later was taken over the North British Railway as its new line arrived in Carlisle from Hawick in 1862.

As traffic grew rapidly in the 1860s, and particularly the amount of freight being exchanged between the various companies, the facilities of the Border City gradually became more and more strained, despite piecemeal improvement. With the impending arrival of the Midland Railway a massive reconstruction of the approach lines to Citadel station, and new system of goods avoiding lines was embarked on and completed in 1878 followed by a large extension of the station itself with the construction of two new through platforms and a new overall roof, all completed in 1880.

Citadel station was owned and operated jointly by the Lancaster & Carlisle (later the London & North Western) and Caledonian Railways. The other five railway companies operating into Carlisle were all tenants in the station, though it was not until the 1860s that all passenger services were diverted into Citadel from London Road and Canal stations.

Until 1922 each railway company working into Carlisle maintained its own traffic and maintenance facilities, giving rise to a heavy local interchange traffic between the various goods yards and depots. At the grouping of 1923 the London Midland & Scottish Railway took over the London & North Western, the Midland, the Maryport & Carlisle, the Caledonian and the Glasgow & South Western Railways, while the London & North Eastern Railway absorbed the North Eastern and North British, the latter including the branch to Silloth. An extensive rationalisation may be been expected, and some relatively minor economies did take place including the reduction of the number of locomotive depots from seven to four. However, major change awaited the British Railways Modernisation Plan of the mid 1950s, and the construction of Kingmoor Marshalling Yard which opened in 1963. By then, however, it was really too late with the massive decline in rail freight in favour of road, and the switch away from wagon-load traffic to long-distance block trains and containers.

Openings and Closures

Openings and closures of railways into Carlisle are detailed under the route sections of this website.

     Carlisle London Road (N&CR/NER) opened 19 July 1836
closed 1 January 1863
(train services diverted into Citadel station)
     Carlisle Bogfield (M&CR) opened 10 May 1843
(closed on opening of Crown Street)
     Carlisle Crown Street (M&CR) opened 30 December 1844
closed 17 March 1849
     Carlisle Citadel station (LNW/Cal Rlys) opened 10 September 1847
Extended station opened 1 July 1880
     Carlisle Canal (NBR) opened 22 June 1854
closed 1 July 1864
(train services diverted into Citadel station)

Goods Lines:

     Carlisle Goods Traffic Committee lines opened 8 July 1877
(Willowholme Junction to Bog Junction)
closed 1 May 1984
     Dentonholme Joint Line opened 1 October 1883
       (NB, G&SW, Mid Rlys) (Dentonholme North to Dentonholme South)
     Kingmoor Marshalling Yard opened 18 February 1963
       and approach lines Sections closed from 1972 onwards.

Upperby would be known as the lanky as it would be the site of the original Lancaster and Carlisle railway station before the Citadel was built.  Its like the S and C is known as the Midland by railway workers.

[MalcolmInN]

Upperby would be known as the lanky as it would be the site of the original Lancaster and Carlisle railway station before the Citadel was built.  Its like the S and C is known as the Midland by railway workers.

Nice find, thanks, saved to disc
Yes that explains it very nice.

And yes again to the S&C, I knew it as the Midland line and shed. Was not till post Portillo, I think, that I was aware of the S&C.

[mr bachmann]

re Silloth , it you visit the tourist information centre Silloth you'll find a nice model of the station/dock area - it could be T scale or smaller .

[mr bachmann]

not on the Silloth line , but further down the coast ...[smg id=20477 type=preview align=center caption="post 8869 0 01430800 1309963641 thumb"]

[Jonny]

not on the Silloth line , but further down the coast ...[smg id=20477 type=preview align=center caption="post 8869 0 01430800 1309963641 thumb"]

Where abouts im guessing its the Carlisle to barrow line??

[mr bachmann]

St Bees , Nethertown to follow ...