N Gauge stock lighting 'standard'

[ngauger]

Hi all!
Whilst still getting my head around the finer nuances & possibilities of DCC (which appear endless) I have not yet found a definitive solution for N gauge rolling stock lighting systems.  I hope somebody will jump in here and say "yes, there is a system, it's this...", and of course, I have read about the Dapol 'Light Bar' system, which looks to have possibilities.
That said, why are manufacturers not putting these things in N gauge stock as standard?  Or even a 'paid for' option?
Now, if you'll allow me, I would like to speculate on a theory or two I have regarding this (important) topic.  As most N Gauge stock produced today (engines DMU's etc) are DCC compatible, why not make the coaches the same?  In other words, yes, why wouldn't you want functioning lights in the rest of your carriages?  If you have a DCC layout, each coach would have an address with which you could set up various parameters via your Jmri/Digitrax/etc/etc.  In this way, you could adjust everything to work as you want it.
So, now to the 'how'!  This is a little more tricky, I'm guessing by the lack of alternatives on 'tinternet, that it's not something that folk have had too many commercial thoughts about, maybe they feel it's too difficult?
I've read a few posts on this admirable forum, and all are using a lot of mods to achieve the end goal, I for one would not fancy opening up my latest purchase from E Hattons (a combo of 5 of GF's finest Blue Riband  LMS crimson's).
So, What about a system that employs the following components:
A DCC decoder chip, nothing fancy, just small as possible (or a way to connect coaches together electrically to share 1 chip per train?-possibly along the lines of Apples 'Mag-Safe system).
The light gubbins, i.e array of leds etc
An easy method of supplying the power requirements. 

THe decoder chip's are abundant, and small, so no wheel to re-invent there.
LED's are here to stay, and are manufactured in convenient strips, and come in various colours and tints, so no real issue there.
The powering issue seems to be the real deal breaker as far as I can see.  It always ends up needing some kind of mechanical contact or pickup.  Why can it not be done through induction?  THe tracks themselves are humming with ac voltage on a DCC layout, can that not be used to power/charge a small rechargeable cell built into the electronics, which would charge as it is used.  That way it would not be affected by momentary breaks in the power supply.
I think the idea of a simple magnetic electrical connection in the couplings for every piece of rolling stock would be very useful, as then you would only need one track pickup per train.  It would of course also convey digital signals throughout the train for any decoders to receive that were present in the stock!
I'm not an electronics expert, so would not be able to build such a device or system, but in this day and age of electronic wonderment, I'd be surprised if this tech is not readily available to larger manufacturers, if not you or I?
What d'ya think?

Take care

Andy

[ngauger]

If the above is still in the realms of science fiction (alas) then I see no reason in principle why a new standard coupling (backwards compatible with old stock of course) should not be created.  It would have the ability to convey electrical current through two pins that are magnetically attracted.  I'm not a design engineer either, but I'm sure you could all see some benefits here?
Wiring terminals could be placed inside the carriages perhaps, along the lines of the current DCC decoder sockets etc.  If all the electrics were to be placed in the boxes underneath the coaches, they could be accessed without removing the roof. 
Anyhow, if the big manufacturers and the NMRA could thrash out standards in DCC operation successfully, then there's no reason why they can't do the same for lighting/accessories is there not?

Andy

[Caz]

Have a look at the Krois range of couples for N Gauge, I use their DCC operated coupling in a couple of my locos and these connector couplings have recently become available, see http://shop.krois-modell.com/Krois-Modell/Conductor-Couplers/Couplers-H0e-and-TT-N/N-2-pole-Conductor-Coupler-NS-2::40.html

[ngauger]

Have a look at the Krois range of couples for N Gauge, I use their DCC operated coupling in a couple of my locos and these connector couplings have recently become available, see http://shop.krois-modell.com/Krois-Modell/Conductor-Couplers/Couplers-H0e-and-TT-N/N-2-pole-Conductor-Coupler-NS-2::40.html

Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at those couplings.  It's still a way off any kind of 'standardisation' or available in general production stock by the likes of Dapol or GF though.  I'm sure that their oo gauge stock now comes with lighting built in does it not?  Do they think we N gauge modellers don't require lights in our rolling stock?!
Still, it is a start, if a little pricey!

Cheers

Andy

[Caz]

Glad you found the link useful.  All my coaching stock is lit in one way or another and all rear coaches are fitted with tail lights.  I have achieved this by using mainly Dapol Collett coaches which are light bar ready.  I buy the cheap warm white strips of LED's and using the connector in the coach wired through to the lights, I haven't bothered with decoders are of yet as it could get horrendously expensive going down that route.

For my "B" sets and 14xx autocoach set I've hard wired the loco to the coaches to get lighting fitted, again with tail lights.  I did a tutorial on how to fit tail lights here which also gives a website where you can buy the special plugs as used in Dapol coaches, can see the LED strip is some of the photos towards the end of the tutorial, see http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=4022.0. 

[gdandridge]

Hi Guys,

Sounds like a great idea. I guess it all comes down to economics.

In some respects railway modelling is a niche market. Then within that N Gauge is a sub-niche. Then to make matters worse then number of N Gauge owners using DCC is ... well dare I say it sub-sub-niche.

So presume it's about development costs, tooling, getting it to market and still trying to turn a profit.

That said the idea is great - perhaps we should take it to market ourselves - and prey we don't make a nasty loss  :'(

Gavin.

[trainsdownunder]

A lot more of the passenger cars do now come with pick-ups which is always the hardest part to do yourself. Decoders are relatively expensive for just an on/off system. There are alternatives such as Hall Effect switches, but these require a circuit board to operate.

Battery systems are okay but the Eazy Peazy system is the only one I have seen that seems to have any decent life - whish I knew how. I have tried looking at small charging system such as those used in mobile phones but these are in the main 5v DC and so need modification to work. (more bits need more space) A charger also needs to be supplying a steady flow which may be another issue to overcome. Agreed not so much of a problem on DCC, but still something for consideration as there is a huge DC market. DC will not "die" just because new stuff is DCC. DC guys want lighting just as much as DCC

The strip leds are the way I suspect most people will solve the issue as in their simplest form these require virtually no extra components. However, space inside most passenger cars is at a premium if you leave interior mouldings in place. Hiding those extras and connectors can be done but it can be a tedious exercise and there is also the issue of light "bleed".

As any of us that have tried our own lighting, "light bleed", be it in a building or rolling stock, does not look good. Maybe not a massive problem to overcome, but still a problem on some models.

It must also be remembered that DC systems will need Rectification for each pick-up to power lighting if using Leds as they are polarity conscious. I am at present looking at ways to get a PCB for this made and should have something to publish shortly.

Connections between cars for carrying power I guess will happen in the not too distant future, but the complication there is ease of coupling/uncoupling. At present there are few of Auto/DCC uncouplers around;  space verses component issue again. Power at present in most will require two connectors (1 live, 1 ground) so ruling out a simple magnetic "brake hose" connector.  Ease of use will be a major factor I feel as if it's too fiddly then people won't bother.

So will we see manufacturers producing the goodies. Eventually - yes.

N scale has come a long way over the last few years especially on the electronic side. The introduction of SMDs has brought size down and I've no doubt things will continue to improve. However,  Manufacturers currently seem to be aiming at reproducing finer detail in our locos and rolling stock as well as the demand foe new models than producing the add-on goodies such as lighting requirements at present. Understandably, as they are primarily box movers and need the turn over. Their interests lie elsewhere and electronic projects can be time consuming and costly. Plenty of people are happy enough not to have lighting at present, and as lighting and other such goodies come at a price I don't think the majority are prepared to pay. I am sure more kits like Kato and Dapol will become available and price will fall (well not increase).

I myself, like Whitswan, Pengi and others, will continue to look at ways of achieving these "goals" and posting our finding here for all to enjoy and benefit from. That's part of the fun for me.

Ok - enough. Soapbox away, time for breakfast. 

Here's a link to some ideas and conversions - http://www.voltscooter.com/Techniques_for_Lighting_Passenger_Cars.pdf

[Bealman]

A thoughtful post, Col. Enjoy your brekky! 

George

[daveg]

Thanks TDU. An interesting read.

Whatever did happen with the 'pilot' Eazy Peazy lights project, Mick?

Dave G

[ngauger]

A very constructive reply TDU thank you! 
Further searching has thrown this up:
http://www.dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCflickerfree.htm
Seems a very comprehensive and 'professional' system for users who want to 'retrofit' lighting.  It appears to use a capacitor and some micro electronics to smooth out the voltage, (compatible with DC/DCC and various voltages with no mods) similar to my suggestion of battery.  So it 'is' out there after all!
However, I'm still loathe  to 'open up' my brand new beautiful coaches myself!  So, rather than make me think, ok, forget it, it's too difficult/niche/oddball/ridiculous to want coach lighting in N gauge, it's made me even more puzzled as to why it's not already commercially fitted, especially as all DCC loco's have 'directional' lights fitted as standard!
I notice it still requires some form of mechanical pickup from the track, so my idea would be to either totally eliminate that connection, using induction methods, or share the connection from the loco, and pass it through the train (as it is in real life is it not?).  That's why I thought of doing it through the coupling (which has been done!).  Maybe we are dealing with patents here?  I would be surprised if the person why designed the two contact coupling system highlighted in an earlier reply to my OP didn't have some kind of patent pending?
So, I seem to be getting closer to a definitive answer here, I'm fairly convinced myself, that if 'person A' saw two identical n gauge trains rattling around a track, one with 'realistic' lighting, and the other without, he would opt for the lit version, I know I would!  Yes, of course it would cost more, how much of course is down to mass production and innovation of design.  I for one would certainly be prepared to pay extra, simply because I knew I couldn't do it myself (not without wrecking my stock!!).

So, the lighting 'wheel' really is alive and well it seems, and is in no need of reinvention, just maybe a reminder of it's existence and what can be accomplished with it if there's a will.

Oh well, I haven't given up, yet!

Good replies though, keep them coming!!

Take care

Andy

[ngauger]

Hi Guys,

Sounds like a great idea. I guess it all comes down to economics.

In some respects railway modelling is a niche market. Then within that N Gauge is a sub-niche. Then to make matters worse then number of N Gauge owners using DCC is ... well dare I say it sub-sub-niche.

So presume it's about development costs, tooling, getting it to market and still trying to turn a profit.

That said the idea is great - perhaps we should take it to market ourselves - and prey we don't make a nasty loss  :'(

Gavin.

Are there really that few n gauge modellers using DCC?  I am surprised!  Not really a great deal 'not to like' about DCC (that I can think of anyhow) for any gauge.

Andy

[red_death]

DCC concepts do some pick up springs: http://dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCflickerfree.htm#Pickup%20Spring

I must confess that even though I run DCC I've never been that convinced of the need for coach lighting - I wonder how visible coach lighting would ever be during daytime.

Cheers, Mike

[Newportnobby]

Thanks TDU. An interesting read.

Whatever did happen with the 'pilot' Eazy Peazy lights project, Mick?

Dave G

Sorry, Dave, but the engineer in question 'left' the company without finishing the project and also took the light bar with him
We are on our own with this, but I believe Robmag has successfully installed them.
They are a great idea but it is just the need to shorten them for MK1 carriages that's the issue

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=8513.msg117109#msg117109

[ngauger]

DCC concepts do some pick up springs: http://dccconcepts.com/index_files/DCCflickerfree.htm#Pickup%20Spring

I must confess that even though I run DCC I've never been that convinced of the need for coach lighting - I wonder how visible coach lighting would ever be during daytime.

Cheers, Mike

I guess that depends on your ambient room lighting.  I still think you'd see it in all but the unkindest fluorescent horror!  Interesting to note that I usually run my loco's with their lights on in any lighting condition, and they now look 'dead' without them.

NB Yes, the 'flicker free' system I mentioned above seems to be an excellent system, just a shame it's not used by GF et al in some production coaches for instance (if not all).  I for one would be up for swallowing the extra £10 per coach (I don't even really need to turn them on or off!), I probably won't be buying more that say, 25 0r so over a couple of years, so although £250 might sound a lot in one lump, but not so bad over a time period?  It's just nice to have an option!

[trainsdownunder]

Are there really that few n gauge modellers using DCC?

There is an increasing number of N Scale modellers using DCC but many of these are new to the hobby.

For many the cost of crossing over from DC to DCC would be an expensive venture and in some cases "older" favourite locos are not entirely suited to new fittings, again the cost of conversion can be prohibitive,

The majority of new modellers will have the choice (DC/DCC) as manufacturers tempt us with the latest DCC ready items. A good decoder adds probably £20 + to the retail price and it doesn't take long to rack up a largish bill. It doesn't necessarily stop there. Decoders for turnouts, signals, couplings, lights, the list grows.

At the end of the day DCC comes at a price whether it is good or bad.

Me, I like it and wouldn't change back. When I started in DCC it was even more expensive pro rata than now, but as I was starting out again it made sense to try to "future proof" myself. Not all are in that position.

Night Night All - guess will pick this up again in the morning.