I am trying to form an Era 4/5 parcel train and have been led to believe all vehicles for such a train had to be Vacuum fitted
So far I have an ex LMS Stanier Full Brake, an ex GWR Siphon plus a couple of ex SR CCTs and want to add a few straight forward vans at times.
Am I correct in thinking that both the BR 12ton Fruit Vans and the ex Southern 2+2 Vans were Vacuum fitted and therefore could have been used?
I fact would all Era 4 Brown or Bauxite vans have been vacuum fitted?
Any advice / info gratefully received?
Ray
@Karhedron (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) is just one of the forum experts who could help.
I tend to throw in BGs (especially Maurice - never did like him) and GUVs along with the Farish Bogie B Southern Luggage vans
Thanks @Newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264)
Mick, can you give me a bit more info about the "Bogie B Southern luggage Vans" as I don't recognise the description and can't spot them on Farish,s new web site.
Dont worry I just found them, they are Blue and Era 7 so rather out of the period I'm looking at, but thanks all the same. (By the way, is Maurice the only one left?)
Ray
@REGP (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1145)
Probably not on the website but you should still be able to track these down.........
374-631 BR (SR) Green
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/19/main_28096.JPG)
374-630 SR Green
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/19/main_28099.JPG)
and if you're modelling SR parcels at all then this also...........
374-416 SR green PLV
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/41/264-200616124235.jpeg)
Personally I don't worry too much about age of stock as all sorts of old stuff hung about in parcels rakes
Thanks @Newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) for the photos, found one for sale on eBay but it's pricey having been weathered by TMC. Kent Garden Railways also seem to have one for sale that's a bit cheaper but I was hoping to utilise some vans I already have, so I'll have think about it.
Ray
Just make sure what you run is vacuum braked, and has somewhere for the guard to go. If you're including non steam heat piped vans, then he will need a stove to keep warm no more than 10 axles from the back of the train.
Quote from: REGP on May 19, 2018, 10:14:07 PM
Thanks @Newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) for the photos, found one for sale on eBay but it's pricey having been weathered by TMC. Kent Garden Railways also seem to have one for sale that's a bit cheaper but I was hoping to utilise some vans I already have, so I'll have think about it.
Ray
No problem, Ray. If you change your mind TrackShack have the 374-416 in stock.
Also, check out the GUV 374-130 (maroon) and 374-131 (green)
Quote from: REGP on May 19, 2018, 08:42:40 PM
I am trying to form an Era 4/5 parcel train and have been led to believe all vehicles for such a train had to be Vacuum fitted
So far I have an ex LMS Stanier Full Brake, an ex GWR Siphon plus a couple of ex SR CCTs and want to add a few straight forward vans at times.
Am I correct in thinking that both the BR 12ton Fruit Vans and the ex Southern 2+2 Vans were Vacuum fitted and therefore could have been used?
I fact would all Era 4 Brown or Bauxite vans have been vacuum fitted?
Any advice / info gratefully received?
Ray
In the 60's any fitted van could be in a make up including short wheelbase fitted vans. For me I am still waiting for a Hawksworth Full brake in maroon. But £££ !!!
Jerry
Quote from: Jerry Howlett on May 20, 2018, 07:45:05 AM
For me I am still waiting for a Hawksworth Full brake in maroon. But £££ !!!
Jerry
Start saving now - I'm sure it will still be a while before we actually see them.
I'm also wondering when (if ever) the blue version of the Hawksworth will turn up.
Plus I've never worked out why Dapol have never done a blue version of the Siphon G - plenty of these around well into the 70s.
Also worth considering, the NGS collaborations with Farish and Dapol such as the:-
Stove R
Thompson Full brakes
Collett K41 Full brake
Trying to find some of these will be like trying to source rocking horse poo, though
I believe Arcadia Models in Shaw (just outside of Oldham) still has a few Southern Bogie B vans on the shelves.
Try them on 01706 882900 if you are still after one at normal money.
Awesome thread. Following with great interest, even though I have nothing to contribute.
Learning curve here. :thumbsup:
Ditto... :thumbsup:
Chris
Quote from: Bingley Hall on May 20, 2018, 10:00:07 AM
Plus I've never worked out why Dapol have never done a blue version of the Siphon G - plenty of these around well into the 70s.
Wrong version of Siphon G I'm afraid.
The ones that stayed around were mostly inside framed, so smooth sided. Dapol ones are all outside framed.
The Lima Siphon G is actually a good model if you ditch the chassis and fit a Dapol chassis (shortening the ludicrous NEM couplings that spoil the wagon) or fit Dapol Autocoach bogies/Siphon bogies to the Lima chassis.
Bob
Quote from: Bingley Hall on May 20, 2018, 10:00:07 AM
Quote from: Jerry Howlett on May 20, 2018, 07:45:05 AM
For me I am still waiting for a Hawksworth Full brake in maroon. But £££ !!!
Jerry
Start saving now - I'm sure it will still be a while before we actually see them.
I'm also wondering when (if ever) the blue version of the Hawksworth will turn up.
Plus I've never worked out why Dapol have never done a blue version of the Siphon G - plenty of these around well into the 70s.
As stated the Dapol version of the Outside framed Siphon G. I don't think many of them survived beyond the late 50's. You need to source LIMA Siphons and dapol chassis to make the hybrid, I think I did a tutorial a few years back as the Dapol Siphon frame comes with Gas cylinders...and the Lima frame wont accept Dapol bogies....
Jerry
Almost any Vacuum Braked XP* rated stock could appear in a parcels train. On occasions this could include 'ordinary' passenger coaches, particularly older Brake-opens with the seats stripped out!
They were also the best opportunity to see stock from multiple regions mixed up in the same train.
As a general pattern there would be a fairly uniform regular core section to the train, with extra vehicles of whatever type was available tacked on as necessary to cope with the traffic demand, plus any inter regional transfers.
A few examples from the Great Eastern section, 1958;
1) CK;BGx4:PMV;BGx2;PMV. Liverpool St-Norwich via Ipswich and branches; CK shown as 'for use of HM Forces'.
2)BG;BZ;BGx2;PMVx2
3)PMV; Vanfits x 6; BZ; PMV x2. Continental mails, but it shows the use of 4 wheeled vanfits in a scheduled formation
4)BZ;PMV;B; PMV;BGx2;PMV
5)PMV; BG x2*; Vans x 7**; PMV. * One BG to be fitted with guard's stove; ** number of vans are 'Q', ie runs as required.
The original document shows how many of the the vehicles were detached/attached on route, or form part of a train which was remarshalled en route.
Especially after nationalisation, as has been said, it was not unusual to have stock from all of the 'Big Four' + BR standards in the same train.
HTH
Martyn
Hi,
Sorry to butt in, but I have one of these .....
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/65/5755-210518163553-655681285.jpeg)
I have only seen it in rakes of passenger coaches. Would it be out of place in a parcel train with luggage vans and CCT's, or should it stay with passenger trains ?
Many thanks,
Kevin
I could be wrong but I think a mail train is a different animal to a parcels train. I have loads of DVDs and have not seen a sorting van in a parcels rake. Bear in mind that CCTs, GUVs, PMVs etc don't have corridor connections. Rightly or wrongly I run the sorting coach in a rake with others and a couple of Royal Mail BGs........
https://www.dropbox.com/s/orhyyc4m5eh5zrf/Mail%20Train%20002.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/orhyyc4m5eh5zrf/Mail%20Train%20002.MOV?dl=0)
No doubt I will be shot down in flames now :uneasy:
At least on the GE section, the sorting vans on the Norwich mail ran within a coaching consist, including limited passenger accommodation, but with non Post Office vehicles as well (mainly BGs). Oddly enough, the up train could convey fish vans if required-but not the down train.
Somebody else will need to answer if the sorting vans ran within parcels-but I'm sure that Post Office trains ran as a block, but as NPN says, it would be within a dedicated PO train with mainly corridor stock, not general parcels trains-I think. I'm not sure. Post Office trains are a subject within itself-effectively block trains running on dedicated routes, and transferring mail at booked stations.
Watch 'Night Mail' (the classic one-it was on channel 81 TV last week) or the later one made by the Post Office in diesel days-YouTube?
Later edit;
The sorting vans (such as yours) would have run in dedicated Travelling Post Office (TPO) trains, which was a network of dedicated services running throughout the UK. These trains were generally composed of NPCCS-non passenger carrying coaching stock, but could also include at least some passenger coaches for public use. NPCCS were mainly bogie vehicles such as BGs, Siphons, Van B, etc, but until the early 60s when they were banned from passenger trains, did include 4 wheel BY, PMV, CCT and six wheeled BZ. I'm not sure if XP rated 12t vans or similar would normally be included in the TPOs-but, as noted, the up Norwich TPO could convey fish vans as required to Ipswich or Colchester; but not the down train.
I also have a photo of the up Norwich TPO with a 'Britannia' hauling the train, and what appears to be a three plank wagon as the first vehicle behind the tender, followed by the normal TPO train. This must have been a very unusual consist-but it happened at least once!
HTH
Martyn
Many thanks for that :thumbsup:
I did not think I had seen a Post Office van with anything other than passenger coaches, but I thought I would ask.
The great thing about this forum is you can always ask and learn, and it is threads like this that can save perhaps costly mistakes buying the wrong vans for the job.
Anyway back to you guys, and thanks for answering :NGF:
All best wishes
Kevin
:beers:
Osborns Models make a few laser-cut sides & ends to fit the Dapol Siphon chassis and roof.
Might be interesting variations to run in a parcels train, though some may possibly be a bit too old even for period 4?
I'll get my coat.
:-\
Quote from: Bob G on May 20, 2018, 01:08:59 PM
The Lima Siphon G is actually a good model...
Bob
As an aside, why were they called Siphons? It seems a very odd name.
Cheers,
Chris
Great Western Railway telegraphic codes were a commercial telegraph code used to shorten the telegraphic messages sent between the stations and offices of the railway.
The codes listed below are taken from the 1939 edition of the Telegraph Message Code book.
There was a list for wagons (see Wikipedia as the list is too long to print here) and also for coaches - which is reproduced below.
Beetle – special cattle truck
Bloater – covered fish truck
Catox – cattle box
Chafer – invalid carriage
Chintz – family carriage
Chub – third saloon
Cricket – composite carriage
Emmett – brake third carriage
First – first class carriage
Gnat – slip coach
Goliath – bogie open scenery truck
Hydra – well truck for road vehicles
Melon – brake third carriage
Mex – cattle wagon
Monster – scenery truck
Paco – horse box
Python – covered carriage truck
Scorpion – carriage truck
Siphon – milk van
Snake – passenger brake van
Termite – third class carriage
Dont think the names for third class passenger coaches are particularly endearing.
Bob
Quote from: Phoenix on May 21, 2018, 05:19:05 PM
I did not think I had seen a Post Office van with anything other than passenger coaches, but I thought I would ask.
TPOs normally ran with vehicles to hold the sorted mail which would be passenger rated vehicles but not necessarily coaches. The WR for example sometimes ran siphons in TPOs to store the bagged mail although other regions generally favoured BGs for this role. Here is a shot of the stock for the Penzance to Paddington TPO shortly after the introduction of the new Mk1 TPO stock. The stock consists of a sorting coach (as modelled by Farish) 2 stowage vans (not available RTR but Bachmann are releasing them in 00 gauge so we can hope they go through the shrink ray) and a Siphon G for extra storage space.
A BG would almost certainly have been added to this rake, probably an ex-GWR vehicle at this time.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/65/207-220518091745.jpeg)
One extra thing to think about-the sorting vans were 'handed' and the pick up and dropping off gear could only be used with the coach facing the correct direction.
Therefore, the sorting vans had to be turned after each working and before commencing the return working-the GE section working stock formation instructions indicates which station or loco shed was responsible for this.
Sorting vans (and PO stowage vans) had offset corridors so that there could be no connection between 'public' coaches in the train and the PO vehicles.
There is photo in 'Eastern steam in colour' by Ballantyne which shows an easily replicated formation in the Newcastle area; V3 (OK, that's a bit difficult at present, but come in Atso); LMS BG; Mk1 BG; Mk 1 GUV; Mk1 BSK (could be BCK?), all in maroon livery.
My post concerning the 'Britannia' hauled TPO and a wagon behind the tender is in 'On Great Eastern Lines' by P Swinger; after the (LNER) sorting van, the next two coaches are Gresley steel sided BGs. The rest of the formation is out of shot.
Martyn
Did the BR era TPOs modelled by Farish have offset corridors? It's hard to tell from catalogue photos. If they did then how was a corridor connection provided with the commonly used stowage vehicles such as BGs and Siphons?
What doesn't appear in the catalogue photos is the lineside connection apparatus that features prominently in Karhedron's photo above. Do Farish supply this in the parts bag?
Quote from: longbow on May 22, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
Did the BR era TPOs modelled by Farish have offset corridors? It's hard to tell from catalogue photos.
I thought that the Mk1 TPO stock had normal corridor connectors and it was only the earlier pre-nationalisation vehicles that had offset corridors. However I haven't been able to find any clear pictures to verify this so I am prepared to be mistaken.
Quote from: longbow on May 22, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
If they did then how was a corridor connection provided with the commonly used stowage vehicles such as BGs and Siphons?
For working with normal vehicles, some BGs were fitted with offset corridors at one end and normal ones at the other to act as intermediate vehicles. An ex-GWR K40 BG can be seen with this here.
(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_06_2011/post-9992-0-12945900-1307978437_thumb.jpg)
I have found mention that the MK1 TPO vehicles were built with a mix of offset and centre corridor connectors depending on whether they were intended to run with earlier vehicles or not.
Quote from: longbow on May 22, 2018, 10:32:12 PM
What doesn't appear in the catalogue photos is the lineside connection apparatus that features prominently in Karhedron's photo above. Do Farish supply this in the parts bag?
As far as I am aware they do not produce the traductor arms and nets for these coaches. :(
A partial apology. I was thinking of pre-nationalisation PO stock when I mentioned offset gangways.
Parkin's Mk1 Coaching stock of British Railways says that 'some' stock was fitted with offset gangways. It seems that the standard designs were introduced in batches, and whether it was fitted with offset or centre gangways depended upon its intended use and which stock it would be marshalled with. It hints that all Mk1 TPO stock had centre gangways by early 1973.
If you want to fit the traductors for collecting/dispatching mail on the move, then Ultima/Etched Pixels used to supply a brass etching; check the catalogue to see if it is still available.
Martyn
The West Coast Postal, in the early/mid sixties, ran as a combined postal & passenger express from Aberdeen as far as Perth. Where the postal section was detached and sent on with express timings, often with an A4 or other available Pacific, to Carstairs. At Carstairs, this short postal train (usually about 5 vehicles (typically 3 sorting vans and 2 stowage vans) was connected to similar vehicles brought down from Glasgow. The whole train would then head south.
The passenger portion which was left behind at Perth, followed on as a stopping service to Glasgow Buchanan Street.