As the title suggests, I am thinking of putting together a fish van train but would appreciate some advice please. Peco and Dapol seem to be the available RTR go to's, but the Peco version seems £3 cheaper than the Dapol version (£7.75 v £10.92). I don't mind paying the difference if I'm getting a better product for my dosh.
Does anyone have experience of both versions?
mick
this link from 5 years ago may help
Peco versus Dapol Blue Spot Fish Vans
i would plump for dapol
The Dapol Model Features:
Highly detailed body with rib and chassis detail finely moulded
Accurately applied livery
NEM pockets
Profiled wheels
Accessory Bag with long and short knuckle couplers
Compatible with Easi-Fit magnetic couplers
sounds personally like more realistic hope helps make your decision chris
There's no comparison here really.
The PECO van isn't at all accurate, but an approximation designed to fit on an existing chassis. The Dapol van is the correct length (substantially shorter) and while there's not much between them in terms of the clarity of the lettering, at least the lettering on the Dapol one is appropriate to the model in question!
Cheers, NeMo
i would aim for dapol's van maybe try one - to check wheels , couplings
still matter of preference then neil / mick ?
chris
I've got a bunch of the Dapol ones, including three as fish vans, and at least five of the parcels version. In the top photo you can see one next to a Bachmann insulated 12ton van, and you can easily see that it has an odd wheelbase length. The second photo has three of them in a short rake, to give you some idea of what they look like as a group.
I think they're nice vans, but their use was a bit limited in terms of time and geographical location. I think this is why they aren't especially popular, and I'm fairly sure most of mine were secondhand on Hattons.
Cheers, NeMo
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/945-300819103032.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=81003)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/945-300819103104.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=81004)
Agree with all of the above.
The Peco fish vans are not accurate at all, but back in the days when I thought I'd finish my layout, I had plans to run huge long trains of fish vans with a Minitrix A4 streamlined Pacific.
I'd read somewhere that it used to happen, probably overnight, I guess.
It's something that I'd still like to do, and for cost effectiveness, the Peco vans would be the only way to go.
I'm talking a dozen vans or more, and I reckon that, incorrect or not, a long train of the Peco wagons would look darn impressive behind an A4.
I think the Dapol model more accurately replicates an actual prototype, whereas the Peco one is quite generic, from mmory length is the biggest issue. That may or may not be an issue for you.
It's also worth remembering that many fish trains, as well as running with Blue Spot Fish Vans, may also have included insulated containers on conflat wagons, along with insulated 12T type vans.
https://flic.kr/p/cTqQis (https://flic.kr/p/cTqQis)
http://www.davesrailpics.bravehost.com/louthbox/92145FISHLthNth.jpg (http://www.davesrailpics.bravehost.com/louthbox/92145FISHLthNth.jpg)
The containers in the above shot are Birds Eye examples, as made by Farish.
an A4 george on a fish train - probably the aberdeen or hull london express fitted freight
Quote from: crewearpley40 on August 30, 2019, 10:51:04 AM
an A4 george on a fish train - probably the aberdeen or hull london express fitted freight
In the early sixties, five destinations served from Aberdeen.
12.30 p.m. to Kings Cross, due 3.2 a.m.
This train is formed only of "Blue Spot" wagons for London; vans for Mac Fisheries Finsbury Park depot are marshalled at the rear to be detached at Finsbury Park.
1.43 p.m. to Kings Cross, due 3.33 a.m.
2.15 p.m. to Carstairs conveys a through load, mostly for North-West England, formed into two southbound trains from Carstairs as follows:
8 p.m. for Birmingham (due 4.3 a.m.); 8.10 p.m. for Manchester Oldham Road (due 2.55 a.m.).
6 p.m. to Edinburgh Waverley, vans for transfer at Edinburgh.
6.38 p.m. to Manchester Victoria.
7.33 p.m. to Perth.
The Carstairs train was steam hauled and was often A4 or Princess Coronation hauled. There was an engine change at Perth, where usually a Carlisle engine was attached.
I think the Waverley and Kings Cross trains would have been Diesel hauled by that time. Type 4.
Thanks for all the replies so far. Looks like Dapol for me then. I won't be running a full rake but a few split from 'the main train' to be hauled through Oxfordshire in the transition era - so maybe ½ a dozen. Luckily the article from AdrianC confirms the useage on my modelled area :D
Now to find the best prices :)
Thanks for the very informative post, NGS-PO!
I didn't dream it, then. :thumbsup:
Come on, NewportNobby, imagine an A4 hauled fish train powering through through your layout. Awesome or what ;)
Quote from: NGS-PO on August 30, 2019, 10:50:07 AM
It's also worth remembering that many fish trains, as well as running with Blue Spot Fish Vans, may also have included insulated containers on conflat wagons, along with insulated 12T type vans.
Agreed, and this is exactly how I run them. The Birds Eye conflat is an exquisite model, and one of my personal favourites.
One bizarre use of fish vans during the 60s and 70s were as 'swingers', single vans hauled by DMUs. Apparently most common in East Anglia, but with a bit of modeller's license I'm sure it could be replicated elsewhere without raising too many eyebrows. I'm certainly happy enough to have one at the end of a Dapol Class 122, right down to the DMU shunting the wagon having dropped off its last passengers at the terminus!
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 11:10:50 AM
Thanks for the very informative post, NGS-PO!
I didn't dream it, then. :thumbsup:
Come on, NewportNobby, imagine an A4 hauled fish train powering through through your layout. Awesome or what ;)
I also have images of the an A4 climbing out of Aberdeen with a milk train (presumably empties heading back to Dumfries-shire) and on another A4 on Cemflo cement wagons.
Quote from: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 11:10:50 AM
Come on, NewportNobby, imagine an A4 hauled fish train powering through through your layout. Awesome or what ;)
I have the Dapol A4 (Wild Swan) so you just have to tell me how the Aberdeen train ended up in Oxfordshire and pay for the other ½ dozen vans for me :P
Quote from: NeMo on August 30, 2019, 11:11:45 AM
One bizarre use of fish vans during the 60s and 70s were as 'swingers', single vans hauled by DMUs.
That's set my mind boggling particularly the use of 'swingers' at such a 'free' time
I was aware of a goods van being tagged on the end of DMUs, and have at least simulated that over the years on my layout.
As for the fish van and swingers....
The mind boggles. Wouldn't it pong something big-time? ;D
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 30, 2019, 11:04:19 AM
Thanks for all the replies so far. Looks like Dapol for me then. I won't be running a full rake but a few split from 'the main train' to be hauled through Oxfordshire in the transition era - so maybe ½ a dozen. Luckily the article from AdrianC confirms the useage on my modelled area :D
Now to find the best prices :)
Thanks for the name check, because unless I missed something, my post appears to have disappeared....did I do something wrong!! ???
its the newport nobby rule 1 fish van special diverted maybe
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 30, 2019, 11:04:19 AM
Thanks for all the replies so far. Looks like Dapol for me then. I won't be running a full rake but a few split from 'the main train' to be hauled through Oxfordshire in the transition era - so maybe ½ a dozen. Luckily the article from AdrianC confirms the useage on my modelled area :D
Now to find the best prices :)
The Grimsby-Whitland Fish ran on the GC mainline in the Transition Era. In the early 60s I used to cycle to Whetstone (just south of Leicester) at around 9PM as the train was usually hauled by an Immingham Loco & for many months these were Britannias in the series 70035 to 70041. The train would have left the GC at Woodford Halse and taken the link to Banbury and then GWR metals to Whitland. It was a very long train so fully justified in the Oxfordshire area. I don't know if the Loco was changed at Woodford or Banbury. I currently have all 11 Dapol Blue Spot vans + various appropriate Farish vans as I plan to run this train on my next layout which will be the GC in the transition era.
Hope this helps& happy to answer any questions.
David
whitland carmarthenshire ?
https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2866 (https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2866)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/6427344151 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/28083135@N06/6427344151)
Adrian...
No, it's happened a couple of times lately. Your post has not disappeared. We will restore it, except for some reason, I can't from my phone.
NewportNobby should be able to fix it :thumbsup:
I've found Adrian's post in the 'Junked' section but don't think I can move it to a specific thread so it would end up on its own in the N Gauge discussion section.
How it got junked I have absolutely no clue ???
Thanks to those giving me the ideal excuse for a fish train in Oxfordshire. The item in David's @Thorpe Parva (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=882) 's post is just puffick
We're looking at it, Adrian! :beers:
Quote from: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 12:20:03 PM
We're looking at Adrian! :beers:
??? ???
No messing about. Did some price and availability comparisons and ordered 1 each of 2F-019-005/6/7/8 from Hattons and 1 each of 2F-019-001/2 from Osborns so that's 6 wagons with differing running numbers (not that my squinty eyes can tell) :)
What locos you thinking to haul them mick? Real enjoyed the thread. C
Mick, @martyn (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=447) of this parish although east anglian specialist knowledge gave me a mass of info relating to fish train movements, I was hoping to run a full length of dapols but short of fabricating stories of lines closed and diversions via S&D to end up on SR metals I decided against it.
As @Thorpe Parva (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=882) says via banbury so at least in the same county as you want on it's way south.
Peco wagons with peco wagons, pretty unobvious their wrong but peco and dapol dont and massively highlights the issues. We have a handful of each but will only run 2s or 3s as my 15/18 rake doesn't exist on SR :'(
Thanks, Craig.
Do you run yours with a brake van as I'm unsure whether these are fitted vans or not? :dunce:
Quote from: crewearpley40 on August 30, 2019, 12:44:28 PM
What locos you thinking to haul them mick? Real enjoyed the thread. C
Manor, Grange, Britannia, Black 5, Std 5 likely for steam.
Maybe a Hymek or Sulzer Type 2 for diesels.
Not sure Banbury had diesels allocated, Chris, so probably from further afield.
look forward to hearing more mick sounds like fun proect
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 30, 2019, 01:26:27 PM
Thanks, Craig.
Do you run yours with a brake van as I'm unsure whether these are fitted vans or not? :dunce:
Quote from: crewearpley40 on August 30, 2019, 12:44:28 PM
What locos you thinking to haul them mick? Real enjoyed the thread. C
Manor, Grange, Britannia, Black 5, Std 5 likely for steam.
Maybe a Hymek or Sulzer Type 2 for diesels.
Not sure Banbury had diesels allocated, Chris, so probably from further afield.
They're fitted.
But you'd need a brakevan regardless.......no?
The express fish from Aberdeen tended to run with an ex-big four BG.
Golden rule, @NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239), with brake vans is:
Pre-1968, yes, unless compelling reason not to include a brake van (e.g., 2-3 wagons being tripped a short distance and relying on locomotive's own brake force).
Post-1968, no, unless compelling reason to include a brake van (e.g., lengthy train of unfitted wagons).
Cheers, NeMo
PS. To be clear, the reason isn't technical but operational: until 67/68, there wasn't an agreement between the BR board and the railway unions to operate trains without a guard at the back of the train. After that time there was, and the guard moved into the locomotive (and was eventually eliminated entirely). So brake vans were not needed.
Quote from: NeMo on August 30, 2019, 02:18:31 PM
Golden rule, @NGS-PO (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6239), with brake vans is:
Pre-1968, yes, unless compelling reason not to include a brake van (e.g., 2-3 wagons being tripped a short distance and relying on locomotive's own brake force).
Post-1968, no, unless compelling reason to include a brake van (e.g., lengthy train of unfitted wagons).
Cheers, NeMo
PS. To be clear, the reason isn't technical but operational: until 67/68, there wasn't an agreement between the BR board and the railway unions to operate trains without a guard at the back of the train. After that time there was, and the guard moved into the locomotive (and was eventually eliminated entirely). So brake vans were not needed.
Yes indeed, but I'm pretty sure @Newportnobby (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) 's era is pre-1968 and so my reply was based on that.
Still unsure with brake van workings Mick but I tend to stick a bauxite one on the back of most things but I'm 59-63 SR.
I build it, dads meant to work out the technical side but even then I double check to make sure hes not just running rule 1 :no:
Quote from: Bealman on August 30, 2019, 12:20:03 PM
We're looking at Adrian! :beers:
:thankyousign:
I thought I'd done something wrong and it had been deleted!!
Anyway, here's the link again.....
https://www.bloodandcustard.net/bluespot.html (https://www.bloodandcustard.net/bluespot.html)
Quote from: NeMo on August 30, 2019, 02:18:31 PM
PS. To be clear, the reason isn't technical but operational: until 67/68, there wasn't an agreement between the BR board and the railway unions to operate trains without a guard at the back of the train. After that time there was, and the guard moved into the locomotive (and was eventually eliminated entirely). So brake vans were not needed.
The guard was only allowed in the rear cab of the diesel/electric - they required independent control of the brake. With the second man in the driver's cab there wouldn't have been space for the guard as well.
This means that steam hauled, and trains hauled by classes 14, 15, 16, 17 and 20 would all need a brake van unless running in multiple.
Steven B.
Quote from: Steven B on August 30, 2019, 02:59:09 PM
The guard was only allowed in the rear cab of the diesel/electric - they required independent control of the brake. With the second man in the driver's cab there wouldn't have been space for the guard as well.
This means that steam hauled, and trains hauled by classes 14, 15, 16, 17 and 20 would all need a brake van unless running in multiple.
True, but I did say post-1968, so steam-hauled freight trains would be rather uncommon by then! And as for classes 14, 15 and 16, they'd be more or less gone; 17s not long after (and let's face it, they didn't do a lot of useful work anyway). So far as I know, by the 1970s, Class 20s were almost always operating in pairs.
So while your points are entirely valid, they don't exactly refute the general rule!
Cheers, NeMo
Here are some preserved examples of the NE/BR(E) Fish Vans.
Haworth Station, Keighley & Worth Valley Railway (https://kwvr.co.uk (https://kwvr.co.uk))
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/2947-300819153531.jpeg)
Ludborough station, Lincolnshire Wolds Railway (https://lincolnshirewoldsrailway.co.uk/ (https://lincolnshirewoldsrailway.co.uk/))
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/2947-300819152216.jpeg)
National Railway Museum, York (https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk (https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk))
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/2947-300819153057.jpeg)
The first and last of these confirm the wheelbase as 15', so that dimension of the Peco model is right, however these vans had a wheel in each corner, whereas the Peco 15' chassis is longer beyond the axles, so their fish van body was stretched to fit it.
I too remember one of these being towed from Milford Haven to Swansea by ?Class 101? DMUs. As the trains reversed at Carmarthen, the train had to run around the van before continuing.
Mike
Hi all,
Just remember there were several variations on the BR 'Blue Spot' fish vans.
For the 50's into the 70's you need a mixture of them to make the train look like the real thing.
Peco Fish Vans - Body was strectched to fit their standard long wheelbase chassis - think it's about 6mm.
If you want to make the slightly different types of BR Fish van - a good starting point is the Peco version.
You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.
One of my current projects is doing just this.
Thanks
Phil H
Quote from: ScottishModeller on August 30, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
If you want to make the slightly different types of BR Fish van - a good starting point is the Peco version.
You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.
I always thought that I might one day razor saw a painted one along the outer edges of the doorways, then vertically down the cut ends, level with the point the diagonal braces meet the floor, and that might do it. I never got around to this however before Dapol stepped in!
Mike
Quote from: maridunian on August 30, 2019, 03:54:06 PM
Quote from: ScottishModeller on August 30, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
If you want to make the slightly different types of BR Fish van - a good starting point is the Peco version.
You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.
I always thought that I might one day razor saw a painted one along the outer edges of the doorways, then vertically down the cut ends, level with the point the diagonal braces meet the floor, and that might do it. I never got around to this however before Dapol stepped in!
Mike
Hi Mike,
You have described almost exactly what I am doing to them!
Glad to know there are other people who have the same ideas.
Thanks
Phil H
Thanks again, All.
Yes - I run late steam/early diesel so a brake van will be used. (the only blue thing on my layout is a Blue Pullman). It's good to know all these things as my rule was ever "unfitted - grey and fitted - "bauxite".
I'm away from home and my books, but you could also use the old Farish model and if you can get them, the fox hunter kits or the 6 wheeled kit to fit the Society stove r chassis. The six wheeler was an LMS design.
As for an A4 hauling a fish train, I have a photo of an A4 piloted by a class 21 (NB loco type 2 bobo at Perth.
NPN, Mick: yes, brakevan needed for you. As has been said, the LNER fast fish from Aberdeen had a passenger BG or BCK for the guard, as the ride was considered too rough in a 4 wheeled goods brake.
Later: note that the BG or BCK was marshalled inside the train, and not at the end.
Martyn
Maybe mick tad bit of weathering around chassis and buffers and lightly detail the van plus a bauxite brake van
Another version of a fish van is-or was-available from BH Enterprises to fit a Peco chassis.
Martyn'
Later
As per NeMo's post#4, the Blue Spot vans tended to be on regular diagrams on limited routes. They were also a BR development of an LNER design, but I don't know when the work for this was done, pre or post Nationalisation.
I did find some articles on their service, which I think I PMd to Exmouthcraig, but I only have limited search access at present.
However, as has been said, the Dapol model is of an actual van, whereas the Peco one is stretched to fit a standard chassis.
If you can find Foxhuneter kits, the same kit can build two variations of LNER
Van, one very similar but not the same as Blue Spot, and one the older sliding door type.
Quote from: ScottishModeller on August 30, 2019, 03:44:37 PM
You need to shorten it and change the strapping on the sides and then fit it on either an etched chassis or on a spare Dapol chassis.
One of my current projects is doing just this.
Hi
It's a pity the Chivers kit isn't available as I used one of them to do the same using the 2mm SA chassis for the kit.
Cheers
Paul
As @martyn (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=447) has said he pmd me this vast amount of knowledge and as it took him 2 attempts to send it too me and has not got info to hand I will share with everyone here and hopefully all useful information for everyone.
Back to your train. I have very little knowledge of the inner workings of the (G)WR and LSWR main lines. Judging from working from the Midlands and North East via the former Great Central, trains worked via Sheffield, Leicester, Banbury, and thence Swindon. I think passenger mainly then went via Bristol, but its feasible for traffic to go via Westbury; this may have been especially so for freight as it would avoid Bristol bottlenecks. If you do not want to do another Rule 1, l then I still suggest that a diversion off this route is a feasible answer; would it need reversing at Salisbury to get to Plymouth? i don't know the rail junction layouts in the Salisbury area. Judging from the piece you found about blue spot workings, it is feasible that this was one train which dropped wagons en route; again, in the absence of photos, WTT, or other written evidence, this is supposition on my part.
So what do you do?
Run as Rule 1.
Run it anyway as a diversion, and at least you have a feasible reason why it COULD have run, until you have proof that it did or didn't go via Salisbury EVER.
I wouldn't have thought that by the time it got to Plymouth that there were many wagons; hence my suggestion of about ten, which is probably a bit high, with 15 or so absolute max. Again, it MAY have been part of a fitted express with other wagons in the consist; this is where you need photos; and I would add other diagram LNER fish vans or possibly LMS, if possible.
Hope this has been some help, even though I have no definitive proof at all of any of this (except the workings via the GCR); but at least it gives a feasible excuse why it might have run via Salisbury, even if only once!
One good thing about van traffic-you can't tell on a model if they are loaded or empty, so it could be the returning empties going via Salisbury, especially if there was a Problem in the Exeter area....... :D
I have built several Foxhunter fish vans as they were more common before the 15' WB was introduced . The guards van on the Grimsby /London was often not at the ned of the train but probably a dozen or more ahead, allegedly to improve the ride at high speed.
keith
Delayed the pic as I was hoping to get a couple of the vans from Osborns but, owing to their website not showing things to be unavailable, I now find out from me calling them the items are not in stock ::)
Anyone have spare 2F-019-001 and 002 they want to sell?? ;)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/264-050919111805-810961392.jpeg)
Forum member trainfish? :D