Silver Jubilee or Coronation coaches

Started by TalyllynJon, December 28, 2018, 02:34:02 PM

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TalyllynJon

I'm just getting back into model railways after a gap of many years - so apologies if I ask stupid questions! I'm currently planning a new layout and collecting stock. I've got my eye on the Dapol A4 in silver grey livery (ultimate British steam locomotive in its most eye-catching livery - in my opinion). Problem is nobody seems to produce a train for it to pull. Am I missing something? Did Dapol ever produce Silver Jubilee coaches (or Coronation coaches for that matter - a blue A4 with a Coronation set with beaver-tail end coach would be a pretty good second best)? Has anybody else ever produced them - RTR or as kits? I keep drooling over bargain A4s on Ebay - but with nothing for it to pull it would be a bit pointless.

Hailstone

worsley works offer a kit for the Silver Jubilee set here:

http://www.worsleyworks.co.uk/N/n_gauge_lner_coaches.htm

hope this helps

Alex

martyn

#2
Don't forget the 'silver' A4s didn't only work the 'Coronation' and 'Silver Jubilee'; when new, 'Quicksilver' normally worked between Newcastle and Edinburgh on 'normal' expresses, and the original four initially worked balancing diagrams on ordinary expresses when not required for streamliners, including the 'Flying Scotsman' and 'Junior Scotsman' sets.

The last repaint of the silver engines was 6/1938 (ie the livery disappeared after this date).

Source; RCTS 'Locos of the LNER' vol 2

Later addition; at least 'Silver Link' worked some running in turns to Cambridge, so more teak coaches and a relatively short train.

Martyn


Stevie DC

#4
Quote from: martyn on December 28, 2018, 03:17:06 PM
Don't forget the 'silver' A4s didn't only work the 'Coronation' and 'Silver Jubilee'; when new, 'Quicksilver' normally worked between Newcastle and Edinburgh on 'normal' expresses, and the original four initially worked balancing diagrams on ordinary expresses when not required for streamliners, including the 'Flying Scotsman' and 'Junior Scotsman' sets.

The last repaint of the silver engines was 6/1938 (ie the livery disappeared after this date).

Source; RCTS 'Locos of the LNER' vol 2

Martyn

Also to be remembered is that the Silver Jubilee set (possibly the Coronation set as well) was not always hauled by an A4 - admittedly only in an emergency though.

This locomotive gained a small amount of fame taking the Silver Jubilee from Doncaster to Kings Cross following the failure of an A4 (actually the second loco to do so on the run) in 1936 or 1937 - I forget which year off the top of my head.



Finally I might actually build one of the trains I built it to haul!  :D

martyn

#5
Hi Steve;

Getting a bit off topic, the 'Coronation' seems to have been mainly hauled by the second set of A4s in 'normal' LNER green livery, with the original four 'Silver' locos on the 'Silver Jubilee', with, as said already, 'Quicksilver' covering the up 'Silver Jubilee' at Newcastle before a return diagram to Edinburgh. Regarding the 'Atlantics', the RCTS history says that C1 3272 assisted 4490, and 4427 assisted 4492, in both cases on the up train from Hitchin to Kings Cross.

RCTS vol 3A mentions that 4452 (your loco) took the up 'Silver Jubilee' from Doncaster to Kings Cross on 4/9/1936, and 4446 took it on another day (28/12/38) from Peterborough to the Cross.

If you weren't aware, C1s were regularly seen at Swindon; Sheffield allocated locos being changed at Leicester to work to Swindon after arriving at Leicester on a train from Sheffield.

martyn

Stevie DC

#6
Thanks Martyn,

I am separated from my own reference materials until the morning so your information, while off topic, is most useful.

Indeed, you might have just decided the identity of one of the other C1s I plan to build, 3272, as there is a (grainy) colour picture of this locomotive at Hitchin in 1937 - proving that pre-war locomotives got grubby too!

https://rcts.zenfolio.com/steam-lner/d-4-4-0/d2/hA890D412#ha890d412

Back to the topic... MikeJ of this parish scratch built a Jubilee set for The North of England Line out of some chopped up old style Farish MK1s (the kind that were clear body shells) with rather exquisite hand cut and painted plastic card overlays add to them. I've been lucky enough to be a guest operator and run this set - they really are very good and prove that scratch building the set is viable.

I know that Isinglass Models does drawings for this set (and the Coronation and lots of other interesting LNER related things) which can be purchased from here: http://www.isinglass-models.co.uk/html/silver_jubilee.html

The fact that Worsley Works has done a set of etches is great news though. However, if they've followed their usual pattern for their scratch aids, you'll still need to source items such as roofs, bogies, buffers, etc yourself. I'll be saving up for a set of etches in the new year as it'll save me having to design my own (I dislike designing complex etches but love building them!).

8'6 Bogies can be sourced from Etched Pixels, the 2mm Association and other places - did the set get 10' bogies when it got the extra coach? I can check tomorrow if Martyn (or someone else) can't provide an answer tonight. If so, this may prove to be a problem as I don't know of anyone who does these in N Gauge.

TalyllynJon

Thanks everyone. Whilst I'm aware that silver A4s were used on other trains it would seem a pity not to have one pulling proper Silver Jubilee stock - after all that is what they were designed for. The Worsley Works kits sound intriguing and warrant further investigation. However, they do muddy the waters a little. I must admit, part of me was actually hoping the answer to my question would be 'no'! One of the difficulties of planning a layout is narrowing down exactly what you're going to build (and therefore ruling out anything else). My plan is to build a reasonably accurate model of the line that once ran past the end of our garden in mid Wales. I'm being pretty rigid with my stock acquisitions - only loco classes that were actually used here and which can be renumbered as actual local engines (no might-have-beens or other flights of fancy). However, my interests are much broader than that - so I've already given in to temptation and bought a couple of items that have no place on the planned layout. A silver A4 and train would be a whole other matter though - if I was going to run such a train I'd want to give it space to run at speed on a decent stretch of mainline - and that would be a very different layout (or at least a layout with some radically different sections). At this rate it looks like I could end up with pre-WWII mid Wales on one side of the room - preservation era West Somerset Railway on the other side of the room - and a stretch of non-specific mainline with classic expresses hurtling up and down connecting the two!

TalyllynJon

oh and I forgot to say - that Ivatt Atlantic is stunning!

martyn

#9
Jon/Steve;

According to Harris 'LNER carriages', the extra third-45' 11" long-was inserted between the 56'2" TK and 56'2" BTK forming a triplet in Feb 1938. The 10' articulated bogie was designed in Sept 1937, so it seems likely it was built new with 10' bogies. Unfortunately, the book has no drawings for this part of the set, and Campling's 'Historic coaches-LNER' has no reference to the streamliners.

Incidently, 'Commonwealth of Australia' was extensively used on the 'Coronation', and the 'Silver Jubilee' was not limited to the four 'Silver' A4s-Harris has a photo of 'Dominion of New Zealand' on the train in 1938.

There is a photo in the RCTS Vol 3A of 4446 working the 'Silver Jubilee' near Potters Bar; it was quite a snowy day!

Martyn


Stevie DC

#10
Quote from: TalyllynJon on December 28, 2018, 06:52:26 PM
oh and I forgot to say - that Ivatt Atlantic is stunning!

Thanks Jon.  :)

Quote from: martyn on December 28, 2018, 07:02:35 PM
Jon/Steve;

According to Harris 'LNER carriages', the extra third-45' 11" long-was inserted between the 56'2" TK and 56'2" BTK forming a triplet in Feb 1938. The 10' articulated bogie was designed in Sept 1937, so it seems likely it was built new with 10' bogies. Unfortunately, the book has no drawings for this part of the set, and Campling's 'Historic coaches-LNER' has no reference to the streamliners.

Incidently, 'Commonwealth of Australia' was extensively used on the 'Coronation', and the 'Silver Jubilee' was not limited to the four 'Silver' A4s-Harris has a photo of 'Dominion of New Zealand' on the train in 1938.

Thanks Martyn, I'll see what the notes on the Isinglass drawings say about this tomorrow.

Quote from: martyn on December 28, 2018, 07:02:35 PM
There is a photo in the RCTS Vol 3A of 4446 working the 'Silver Jubilee' near Potters Bar; it was quite a snowy day!

That's why I picked 4452 over 4446!   ;)

Newportnobby

Quote from: Atso on December 28, 2018, 06:32:18 PM

Back to the topic... MikeJ of this parish scratch built a Jubilee set for The North of England Line out of some chopped up old style Farish MK1s (the kind that were clear body shells) with rather exquisite hand cut and painted plastic card overlays add to them. I've been lucky enough to be a guest operator and run this set - they really are very good and prove that scratch building the set is viable.


I knew I'd seen a set somewhere. Maybe @Mike J could provide some methodology for you

Mike J

Quote from: Newportnobby on December 28, 2018, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: Atso on December 28, 2018, 06:32:18 PM

Back to the topic... MikeJ of this parish scratch built a Jubilee set for The North of England Line out of some chopped up old style Farish MK1s (the kind that were clear body shells) with rather exquisite hand cut and painted plastic card overlays add to them. I've been lucky enough to be a guest operator and run this set - they really are very good and prove that scratch building the set is viable.


I knew I'd seen a set somewhere. Maybe @Mike J could provide some methodology for you

'Evening all,
If anyone is interested, I'll post a description of the method used to scratch build the original 1935 Silver Jubilee set. For now, here is a video of North of England Line at Warley in 2012. The Silver Jubilee appears at about 2.10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNh83VaPX_0
Cheers,
Mike
Duchesses are red, A4s are blue,
126 for the A4, The Duchess couldn't do

Stevie DC

Quote from: Mike J on December 28, 2018, 11:43:29 PM
'Evening all,
If anyone is interested, I'll post a description of the method used to scratch build the original 1935 Silver Jubilee set. For now, here is a video of North of England Line at Warley in 2012. The Silver Jubilee appears at about 2.10.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNh83VaPX_0
Cheers,
Mike

Yes please Mike! Your Silver Jubilee set (and the 'Queen of Scots' rake) is an absolute work of art and deserves to be described on here.  8) 8)

TalyllynJon

Thanks again everyone - I think that film of Mike's stunning scratch-built Silver Jubilee set clearly demonstrates why I'd want something similar. So I think I've decided I will treat myself to a Dapol A4 (once I've nursed my credit card back to health after the shock of Christmas!). If I think I might want one at some point it is probably better to snap it up now rather than paying over the odds for a tatty secondhand one in a few years time. I'll probably also splash out on the Worsley Works kit - although building it will have to be way down the 'to do' list (running a Silver Jubilee train is unlikely to be a realistic option until I've completed the phase 3 extension to my layout - and as I'm currently still building and equipping the shed before starting work on construction of phase 1 of the layout that ain't gonna be any time soon!). I will need to be careful that this isn't the start of the slippery slope though - I'm trying to collect correct stock for my planned mid Wales layout, picking up items as and when my budget allows - not giving in to temptation everytime something shiny and exciting catches my eye (although once I've got a silver one it would surely just make sense to have a blue one too...and then I've always loved the Gresley A1/A3s...and that Dapol Schools in malachite green is very pretty...........!)
Thanks
Jon

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