Would love an A4 but scared off by Dapol unreliability and that drive shaft thingy between tender and loco.
Are they good runners and I need not worry about it
Thanks for the advice
Mine's still running beautifully after about 4 hours (Commonwealth of Australia of course). It is a wonderful looking loco and pulls 12 coaches up a 1.9% grade with ease. Like you, I'm suspicious of the reliability of the cardan drive, but so far so good. Touch wood. Mind you, the first A4 sent to me had tangled motion and had to be sent back and replaced - no problem from Rails.
Webbo
Thanks Webbo. Thats what i was afraid of, like you living in oz.
Decisions, decisions!
I've got two A4s. "Sir Nigel Gresley" and "Mallard", one with valances and one without. Both are excellent runners. The only Dapol loco I've had trouble with was the "Britannia" but ow I have a great one of these!
No problems with my A4 at all but you really do have to be careful how you pick the thing up. Keep the loco and tender horizontal so the cardan shaft doesn't disconnect and perhaps drop inside the loco.
Had that happen to me and I had to take the loco apart to get it out again. Re-connecting the cardan shaft can be difficult, especially if your eye sight is not so good. You're putting a black shaft into a small black hole in a black cab. :hmmm:
Nice loco though if you're careful.
:beers:
I must admit that I've been very impressed with the appearance of the model since it was released, but can imagine that it's pretty fragile.
I follow this thread with interest.
Mind you, I still like my Minitrix Mallard, even with it's inaccuracies! :beers:
Not helping me here! haha
No, mate, I know, but I'm following along with interest. I've got one bookmarked!
I bought one when they were first released and, having fixed an issue with the front pony truck, it runs sweetly and looks great IMO
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ubyzhnvfizrb89/5MT%20and%20A4%20on%20Kimbolted.MOV?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ubyzhnvfizrb89/5MT%20and%20A4%20on%20Kimbolted.MOV?dl=0)
Pickup tends to be variable. All mine have either had additional weight in tender, or rear pony pickups fitted (or both). Several have been fully stripped to get out grease in the drivetrain that's worked into the pickups.
Other than that only a few minor things - one with tight valve gear that had a limp (easily freed up) and a few with dodgey thickness traction tyres (i.e. they were varied in thickness) that gave wobbles - again these were just swapped for the spares in the detail bit/extras bits bag.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on March 13, 2017, 09:46:21 AM
Pickup tends to be variable. All mine have either had additional weight in tender, or rear pony pickups fitted (or both). Several have been fully stripped to get out grease in the drivetrain that's worked into the pickups.
Other than that only a few minor things - one with tight valve gear that had a limp (easily freed up) and a few with dodgey thickness traction tyres (i.e. they were varied in thickness) that gave wobbles - again these were just swapped for the spares in the detail bit/extras bits bag.
Cheers,
Alan
Never had these problems with my Farish or Minitrix, but what a goddam awful design of the valve gear on my Dapol B1....... :hmmm:
Quote from: oscar on March 13, 2017, 09:54:21 AM
Quote from: Dr Al on March 13, 2017, 09:46:21 AM
Pickup tends to be variable. All mine have either had additional weight in tender, or rear pony pickups fitted (or both). Several have been fully stripped to get out grease in the drivetrain that's worked into the pickups.
Other than that only a few minor things - one with tight valve gear that had a limp (easily freed up) and a few with dodgey thickness traction tyres (i.e. they were varied in thickness) that gave wobbles - again these were just swapped for the spares in the detail bit/extras bits bag.
Cheers,
Alan
Never had these problems with my Farish or Minitrix, but what a goddam awful design of the valve gear on my Dapol B1....... :hmmm:
Funny world isn't it? I've got a Dapol B1 in LNER green that's had a very light oiling and half an hour in each direction including turned around on my loop track.
Runs sweet as a nut. Shame really as I've decided to go LMS so it'll be up for sale.
::)
Quote from: oscar on March 13, 2017, 09:54:21 AM
Never had these problems with my Farish or Minitrix, but what a goddam awful design of the valve gear on my Dapol B1....... :hmmm:
I've seen plenty of pickup problems on aging Minitrix, indeed there are few Minitrix locos that can run over my electrofrog double slips without stalling.
cheers,
Alan
The more i read the replies the more im thinking maybe not a good idea geting one. having played with a OO dapol version the other day(had on board smoke geny, black label?) i really would love to have one.
maybe if i get one from say hattons and ask them to test run it(would they do that) before mailing out
On any Dapol tender loco those prop shafts are a problem. They fall out if you are not very careful in handling to keep the whole edifice in line.
And to reassemble requires good eyesight and a steady hand. I have problems on both those counts. So my only Dapol tender loco is my Brit. An early release with those silly silver wheels and cross head screws holding the wheels and valve gear together. Later releases improved on this. To be totally fair it has always run and pulled well, and it looks great - above the running plate. A fine loco. But my Poole based Farish A3 and China based A4 will run on. And I went for the Farish B1s. Don't need a 9F.
Still have a Minitrix Brit. Running well after many years. But now turned into a Clan.
Quote from: 1936ace on March 13, 2017, 11:28:45 AM
The more i read the replies the more im thinking maybe not a good idea geting one. having played with a OO dapol version the other day(had on board smoke geny, black label?) i really would love to have one.
maybe if i get one from say hattons and ask them to test run it(would they do that) before mailing out
Either that, or better still, go to your local model shop (if you're lucky enough to have one). You can ask them to see it running. Most good model shops have a small test track to allow you to do this. I know you may pay a bit more than you would pay from the likes of Hattons or Rails of Sheffield but at least you know you've got one that runs straight out of the box.
:beers:
@austinbob (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2403)
As Bart lives in New South Wales the chances of him having a model shop stocking British outline could probably be counted on the fingers of, erm, one finger :hmmm:
Every now and then I request Rails of Sheffield to test something before sending it to me and they scribe a small 'T' on the label to inform me it has been done.
To my mind any UK retailer sending locos abroad should test them first and even go so far as to supply a test certificate rather than have to faff about getting them back if they are not up to scratch.
@1936ace (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=908)
Bart - I'd be quite happy to test a loco for you and then send it out to you if that helps, but I only have DC.
Quote from: 1936ace on March 13, 2017, 06:16:05 AM
Would love an A4 but scared off by Dapol unreliability and that drive shaft thingy between tender and loco.
In my experience 95+% of problems with Dapol locos are user inflicted and not inherent design flaws.
Yes they are more delicate and need more careful handling than the 1980s Farish models, but that is the trade-off for a more accurate, more finely detailed model... As others have noted, the drive shafts only drop out if you allow the tender and loco to fall out of line when you pick it up.
Quote from: 1936ace on March 13, 2017, 06:16:05 AM
Are they good runners and I need not worry about it
If properly cared for, they are very good runners. The only thing you need to worry about is how you look after it.
Quote from: PLD on March 14, 2017, 07:51:39 AM
In my experience 95+% of problems with Dapol locos are user inflicted and not inherent design flaws.
I would like to know what experience you have in the way others treat their locomotives that allows you to assert that 95+% of Dapol problems are down to user mistreatment. That is a mighty bold assertion that can't be upheld without a great deal of statistics that I don't think anyone has including Dapol. Happy to have a discussion with you about this offline through PMs if you like.
Probably like you I'm tired of people slagging Farish and Dapol justifiably or not and don't want this thread to head in this direction as it has already been done over.
Webbo
In a nutshell.
I have: Black 5, 3 x Jubilees, Ivatt, Fairburn, B1.
6 Farish, 1 Dapol. All either brand new, or unused second-hand. All run great, no problems whatsoever.
People only comment on the bad experiences. If everyone who had a new loco that ran faultlessly came on here and told us, the server would probably crash.
All I can say in reply is , that most of my 1990s Farish models need attention, as do my well-loved Minitrix Mallard, and 9Fs.
Yes, we are a forum for problems, and hopefully members can fix them.
Quote from: emjaybee on March 14, 2017, 08:55:16 AM
In a nutshell.
I have: Black 5, 3 x Jubilees, Ivatt, Fairburn, B1.
6 Farish, 1 Dapol. All either brand new, or unused second-hand. All run great, no problems whatsoever.
People only comment on the bad experiences. If everyone who had a new loco that ran faultlessly came on here and told us, the server would probably crash.
You're right of course. Unfortunately there are so many bad experiences that many of us have had one or more locos not work properly out of the box.
It may be that members of the forum are more critical than others and expect a higher standard, but I can't help thinking from time to time how the first time N gauger feels when their new purchase doesn't work. That may put people off for good.
I have around 70 locos and about 20 percent were faulty to some degree when purchased and a few have developed faults since purchase. That's why I only buy new locos from local model shop after seeing them run and I only buy second hand items from people I trust.
Don't get me wrong when's locos work as they should that's great but my experience, and that of many others, is too many have faults.
Also people post their loco faults to see if others have experienced the same- more often than not, they have.
:beers:
You've pretty well summed up my own feelings, mate.
I think that because we are forum members and possibly a little more knowledgeable that a newcomer, we may be a little harsh on the people who actually make this product that we are so endeared to.
Hard call.
When I look back on it, my 1963 Triang Britannia with smoke had to be returned to Josephs in Sunderland!
My main point of view is this. We choose to model in miniature. We are no longer that happy with the detail on older models, we want to see rivets, separate handrails etc, whilst not being able to see motor cans, pickups etc. To do this with the level of reliability of, say 00 gauge locos, the degree of engineering required is going to be, not twice as much, more like eight times as much as we have now. Which will inevitably have a big impact on the price, it would probably treble if not quadruple the final price. This would then almost overnight reduce the market for the product, probably by 75%, to leave the dedicated "few" in relative terms being able or willing to afford them, thus driving prices up or range down...
...possibly destroying the viability of the scale.
M
I have the feeling that this thread is getting derailed. Folks, let's stick to discussion concerning the running characteristics of the Dapol A4.
Webbo
With respect I don't think that it's getting derailed at all. All these points are pertinent to an A4 as much as any loco. They're all coming out of the same factories with the same "designers" with the same quality and tolerance standards, built down to a similar price.
I too have been very wary up to now of buying a Dapol steamer due to the problems members of this forum have described. However I am very tempted to purchase one of the new valanced A4's.
Could members who have them describe their findings on running, and also what minimum radius track they will comfortably run on please.
Maurice C.
glad im not the only one maurice.
As mentioned in my earlier post, my Dapol A4's are very good runners. They will negotiate 11 inch radius track, which is the minimum on my return loops. Assuming the track is well laid there should be no problems with the leading bogie.
I'm going to agree with PLD about a lot of problems being caused by bad handling of locos (and badly laid track) maybe not 95% but quite a lot, the rest will be manufacturing faults. I'm the member of a club and some of the guys are quite rough with their locos, some of them are rather clumsy and can't see that well either. :( I'm surprised some the locos survive but in our club they are mainly Kato diesels.
These observations won't help the OP much but he will know to handle his loco with care. I think Farish locos are a bit stronger than Dapol ones.
I was very wary about getting a Dapol 9F but managed to find one at half price that had been repaired, it runs very well so I'm very pleased.
We all take a bit of a chance when buying a new loco of either make, what does make it difficult as far as returns go, is living thousands of miles away from the U.K.
Quote from: Webbo on March 14, 2017, 08:39:14 AM
Quote from: PLD on March 14, 2017, 07:51:39 AM
In my experience 95+% of problems with Dapol locos are user inflicted and not inherent design flaws.
I would like to know what experience you have in the way others treat their locomotives that allows you to assert that 95+% of Dapol problems are down to user mistreatment. That is a mighty bold assertion that can't be upheld without a great deal of statistics that I don't think anyone has including Dapol.
In my Experience i.e. of the locos I've dealt with... Those belonging to myself or fellow club members and those from others I've been asked to repair. That doesn't need any other statistics to be valid.
I didn't claim that that was representative of Dapol's output as a whole as you seem to be implying. :confused1:
By far the most common issues encountered with Dapol Steam Locos are detached/lost drive shafts (which only drop out through mis-handling) or squashed valve gear due to gripping the valve gear rather than the body when picking up the loco.
I cannot comment on the A4 but I do have an A3 with similar running gear
The A3 is a noisy runner and through its value gear within two runs around my layout, luckily an easy repair, and yes I am very careful in the way I handle these locos.
I have a few Dapol steamers and have surprising found them better than their modern image offerings where I have a lot of problems with failed lights and wobbles (Class 86 are the exception as these always seem excellent runners). No issues so far with drive shafts coming a drift.
Steamers
A3 - noisy
Brit - good runner but wobbly rear truck wheels
B1 - good runner
M7 - good runner but no pulling power as well known
Having had experience with about a dozen of the non-valenced A4s I would make these points:
Loco is noisy. This can be tamed by adding weight to the tender, which also helps pick-up as mentioned by Dr Al. I also find a little tiny drop of Power Lube helps with the tender performance. Some locos are noisier than others.
Out of the ones I have had, four have had issues, the rest have been fine including one bought as NQP which turned out to be the quietest one I have and only needed tender to loco wires replacing.
On the subject of tender to loco wires: they do break and do need replacing from time to time, in the case of one of mine, straight out of the box.
Problems I have encountered have also included:
Valve gear coming adrift - this is very rare and normally obvious straight away.
Valve gear locking - the valve gear is thin and can occasionally lock up if parts come into contact - again very rare, and normally salvagable.
Squealing mechanism on one early release.
Back to backs out on one early release.
The ones I have that run well are good runners and are very powerful. They can be fussy on insulfrog points. The noise often eases with running but can be a bit off putting at first.
It is a fine looking model - livery can look a little flat.
All in all I would say that buying an untested one from abroad is a risk. Get it tested without any hesitation. I would say this for any loco from Dapol or Farish.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Ian.
There are one or two Dapol locos I like, but the bad press on their locos puts me off,
I have the little 14xx, nice even though not great hauling power. I got it a while back,
it was a bit sluggish, turned out the worm drive had grease like candle wax on it.
After digging it out with toothpicks it runs very smoothly. However should run
perfectly out of the box.
Why do Dapol use that thick grease ? The first thing you have to do is get rid of it
That improves the running straight away then a very light oiling and gentle running in.
I have a 14xx that pulls six coaches with ease.
I found its the M7 thats the worst for haulage .
Bob Tidbury
Quote from: Elvinley on March 15, 2017, 10:37:56 PM
Having had experience with about a dozen of the non-valenced A4s I would make these points:
Loco is noisy. This can be tamed by adding weight to the tender, which also helps pick-up as mentioned by Dr Al. I also find a little tiny drop of Power Lube helps with the tender performance. Some locos are noisier than others.
Out of the ones I have had, four have had issues, the rest have been fine including one bought as NQP which turned out to be the quietest one I have and only needed tender to loco wires replacing.
On the subject of tender to loco wires: they do break and do need replacing from time to time, in the case of one of mine, straight out of the box.
Problems I have encountered have also included:
Valve gear coming adrift - this is very rare and normally obvious straight away.
Valve gear locking - the valve gear is thin and can occasionally lock up if parts come into contact - again very rare, and normally salvagable.
Squealing mechanism on one early release.
Back to backs out on one early release.
The ones I have that run well are good runners and are very powerful. They can be fussy on insulfrog points. The noise often eases with running but can be a bit off putting at first.
It is a fine looking model - livery can look a little flat.
All in all I would say that buying an untested one from abroad is a risk. Get it tested without any hesitation. I would say this for any loco from Dapol or Farish.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Ian.
Ian
That is a nice comprehensive statement on the A4s. I've had experience with two. The first one had a valve gear locking issue evident after I first tried to run it and it hopped down the track. I thought at the time that I could have bent the motion back so it would have worked at least temporarily, but reasoned that one or more of the pins holding the motion together might have stretched and that I could have been setting myself up for ongoing problems. So, I sent it straight back without an attempted repair. Any thoughts on this? @Elvinley (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=268)
Sending stuff back to the UK for replacement is a giant nuisance and your advice of asking locos to be checked by the retailer before being sent is spot on. To 1936ace, I would say that I really like this loco and it has been worth the effort in getting one that runs properly. The issue of the cardan shaft being prone to pop out can be easily remedied by ensuring the loco and tender are picked up in line with one another and is certainly not a game changer.
Webbo
Both Rails and Hattons will test locos before despatch if asked. However I suspect the testing is pretty perfunctory - my Dapol Grange from Hattons came with a Tested sticker yet was just as rough as the one it replaced.
My three other Dapol tender drive locos (Halls/9F) are all exemplary runners but I agree they do need to be handled correctly to avoid issues with the drive shaft and the tender wires.
Quote from: Webbo on March 16, 2017, 11:25:25 PM
The first one had a valve gear locking issue evident after I first tried to run it and it hopped down the track. I thought at the time that I could have bent the motion back so it would have worked at least temporarily, but reasoned that one or more of the pins holding the motion together might have stretched and that I could have been setting myself up for ongoing problems. So, I sent it straight back without an attempted repair. Any thoughts on this? @Elvinley (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=268)
Webbo
I would say you did the sensible thing. It may well have been easy to rectify but you could end up doing more damage unless you are very careful. The valve gear locked on one I had had for a few months and it was just a case of reversing the loco to unlock it and carefully bending the rods back to where they should be and making sure the clearance all round was now correct. Not sure why it suddenly decided to do it - maybe after a little wear it loosened things up enough to cause a bit of extra play?
Cheers,
Ian.
I emailed Dapol last weekend and received a reply this morning regarding the type of track the valanced A4's will negotiate.
I specified that my track layout utilised 2nd. radius Peco curves of 10.3 inch radius and according to Director Joel Bright I should expect no problems running around the curves.
That said, I will now bite the bullet and see if I can find a tested and quiet model from Rails my nearest dealer.
Maurice C.
Just seen this thread.
I currently have eight BR liveried A4s plus the N Gauge Society unvalanced Silver Link.
A couple of these were secondhand and came with problems - a damaged traction tyre on one and another that had been castly overoiled wrecking both traction tyres and causing other problems. Of the new ones one had the slide bars slightly out of alignmet on arrival - transit vibration had loosened it slightly. A gentle push back with a cocktail stick cured this. I now have my first one needing a major service- 60030 (a renumbered Wild Swan) has locked its valve gear and will be off shortly to DCC Supplies for sorting. This loco has so far done about eight miles (full-sized miles) in service.
The only other problem I've found is that the front bogie can be a bit tricky. The tongue at the front occasionally locks to one side of the piece I believe is supposed to slot into it, affecting trackholding. The A3 doesn't have this tongue and holds the track a good deal more reliably. Having said that I rate the A4 above the Farish one for trackholding, and very high on my list of locos.
Drive shafts are an issue but mainly down to being picked up badly. NEVER pick a loco up by the valve gear- it springs Dapol drive shafts and damages Farish valve gear. Hold the cab and tender if you really must only use one hand.
Putting the drive shaft back is straightorward. Use pliers (curved-end work better for me) to put the loco end in first. It helps if you can get light shining directly into the cab to see better. Then use a cocktail stick to rotate the motor until the slots on the tender-end drive collar line up with the lugs on the drive shaft and click back into place. Britannias are a lot more tricky than A4s. A3s are easier and the rest simple by comparison.
Overall I rate my four LNER pacific types as follows.
A3s top- reliable and strong
A4s next. Slight track sensitivity.
A2s. Reliable but two of my three can't pull the skin off a rice pudding.
A1s. I've had too many failures (5 visits to BR Lines) among my original three. I'm hoping two new ones I've just acquired will improve the overall rating.
Hope this helps
Les