Yet another Dapol moan thread

[austinbob]

You're right, you can't inspect quality into a product. You need to have quality in mind at every stage. Design, components, manufacturing processes, choice of sub contractors etc etc. Its called quality assurance.
However, if you've skimped on this then you have to rely on inspection to filter out the baddies. If you don't do inspection either then it's down to luck as to whether the customer gets a goodun or not.
I often feel this last scenario is where we're at right now.

[Chris Morris]

You're right, you can't inspect quality into a product. You need to have quality in mind at every stage. Design, components, manufacturing processes, choice of sub contractors etc etc. Its called quality assurance.
However, if you've skimped on this then you have to rely on inspection to filter out the baddies. If you don't do inspection either then it's down to luck as to whether the customer gets a goodun or not.
I often feel this last scenario is where we're at right now.

But if you are a very small part of a factories total business you have no power to force them to improve - thats Dapol's problem with quality. You need clout in business, something they havent got because of their size.

[Portpatrick]

A number of issues continue to be aired.

Thank you Austinbob for your succinct explanations of how QC works - the place of sampling.  This is what I was taught when I did my own professional studies in the early 70s.  I trained in that body of accountants whose feet were planted firmly in understanding the basics at least of how factories worked!

With sample testing some faulty goods will get through.  should be very few though.  Question - is the failure rate we experience on UK N gauge so high as to suggest better QC checking is needed.  I don't know but sense it is, though I have been in the lucky majority and have had no duffs from a large number of recent models.

I am quite prepared to do simple minor adjustments myself.  And with 80s Farish quite often did - successfully.  Maybe I shouldn't have to but I  get on with it.  That said, rather like cars, the whole thing is so much more complex and fiddly these days, and also less robust, so DIY carries more risk of self inflicted damage.  So that and my worsening hand tremor make we more wary with what I will attempt. 

[austinbob]

That may be true Chris, I don't know. I'm just pointing out some of the techniques that can be used to improve quality and reliability. To be honest, if somewhat brutal, the internal problems that manufacturers have in producing a range of n gauge products is not my concern. They chose to be in this market of their own volition. My problem is that they don't always deliver an acceptable product.

[Chris Morris]

In conversations over the years with people from both Dapol and Bachmann it is clear that the Chinese often do not follow their instructions. The order in which things are made, the quantities can all change on the whim of the Chinese factory. They do not always do things to specification and they are inconsistent in the way they do things which leads to quality issues. The only way to improve is to move business elsewhere. I notice nobody here is saying they know a factory which is all set up and ready to build small volume model railway items - probably because there aren't any. I think people have to get real. Building little trains in very small volumes is not like building motor cars, light bulbs etc where quantities are huge and the brand owner has total control over the production process.
Like I say, there is absolutely nothing stopping all those on this thread who know so much setting up their own business and making higher quality products than Dapol. There is also nothing stopping players such as Kato making items for the UK market. The fact that they don't suggests that they don't see much in the way of profits here.

[austinbob]

In an ideal world Chris they should select a sub contractor who can do th job properly. I hear all the reasons why this is difficult or even impossible but if they are gonna stay in this business then they need to up their game.
Here are two possible options (I'm sure there are others)
1. Do the production work themselves or choose a sub contractor who does the work properly and put the prices up accordingly.
2. Change the description of the product to include a note such as 'this product may have varying degrees of problem beyond our direct control. Many can be easily fixed by experienced modeller others may need to be sent back to us for repair or replacement.'.
With latter, at least they would be telling it as it is.

[scottmitchell74]

I think people will pay more if they KNOW the thing they're getting has a much higher chance of working properly, and for a long time. It's why so many people love Kato Unitrack, it's why Lionel was the boss when I was a kid working with larger scale. Every Lionel item from the 80s that I abused as a kid still works. Up in the attic 10 years? No problem. I dust of old  Life-Like or Kato N scale stuff after years? Still light up, still go, go, go.

I'd pay more (now how much, I don't know?) to KNOW I was getting something that was much less likely to die in short order.

[Byegad]

I understand Chris. My elder son designs and builds control systems for a large engineering firm. He found a computer, built outside of the firm by a contractor to his specification, came back and wouldn't work. Code was checked, no issues in the 500000+ lines of code. Components were checked, and one processor was not the one specified but a recognised industry substitute. Change to the correct processor and it worked.

However Union Mills seem to have sorted the running side out. I'd bought 8 or 9 of their locos second hand over the years and in the last 5 weeks have bought two new ones direct from Colin, who is a joy to deal with. So much so that today I've ordered a J27 and a 2P. From past experience they'll be here tomorrow.
Yes I know the locos are all inside cylinder tender locos and lack some of the exquisite detail of Shed queens I own from GF and Dapol. But they run well, pull far more than the prototypes and are bomb proof. I'd rather see my trains run than repair a faulty new or very nearly new locomotive.

Now you can get detailed locomotives with great detail and reliability, Fleischmann, Arnold in their time and MinItrix have all done it in continental locomotives, I know I own several. So do several of the American outline manufacturers and I have owned several over the years, and still have some now.

So it is possible to make a super detailed reliable locomotive, but expect to pay more than we do now, meanwhile Union Mills will be getting a few more orders from me, especially if an Atlantic, or Single Wheeler of LNER constituents turns up on their list!

[austinbob]

Spot on scottmitcell and byegad....

[Sprintex]

In conversations over the years with people from both Dapol and Bachmann it is clear that the Chinese often do not follow their instructions. The order in which things are made, the quantities can all change on the whim of the Chinese factory. They do not always do things to specification and they are inconsistent in the way they do things which leads to quality issues.

I believe this is the reason why Rapido have their OWN factories in China, and is why Jason Shron learnt Mandarin so he could speak to them one-to-one without things getting "lost in translation"

The big test for the UK market will be when we get the first powered Revolution Trains item (presumably still the Pendolino?), although I've heard very few complaints about Rapido's quality so far in either North American n Gauge or any 00/H0 model. The odd hiccup that has cropped up has been very swiftly and apologetically put right at no cost to the customer.


Paul

[austinbob]

I'm not familiar with Rapido products Paul. How do they compare to Farish/Dapol on price?

[Chris Morris]

In conversations over the years with people from both Dapol and Bachmann it is clear that the Chinese often do not follow their instructions. The order in which things are made, the quantities can all change on the whim of the Chinese factory. They do not always do things to specification and they are inconsistent in the way they do things which leads to quality issues.

I believe this is the reason why Rapido have their OWN factories in China, and is why Jason Shron learnt Mandarin so he could speak to them one-to-one without things getting "lost in translation"

The big test for the UK market will be when we get the first powered Revolution Trains item (presumably still the Pendolino?), although I've heard very few complaints about Rapido's quality so far in either North American n Gauge or any 00/H0 model. The odd hiccup that has cropped up has been very swiftly and apologetically put right at no cost to the customer.


Paul

So one has to ask how many items a year do Rapido make compared to Dapol? If they sell products in the USA  they will be selling 50 times more if each HO item than Dapol sell U.K. N gauge. That sort of volume would allow so much more to be done.

[Chris Morris]

I've seen a union mills loco not work out of the box. A Dean goods last year. The owner and I had to do some fettling on it.

[austinbob]

I've seen a union mills loco not work out of the box. A Dean goods last year. The owner and I had to do some fettling on it.

A rarity indeed...    and the problem was?

[Sprintex]

I'm not familiar with Rapido products Paul. How do they compare to Farish/Dapol on price?

and

So one has to ask how many items a year do Rapido make compared to Dapol? If they sell products in the USA  they will be selling 50 times more if each HO item than Dapol sell U.K. N gauge. That sort of volume would allow so much more to be done.

No idea on both counts

This just comes from reading others' comments, things posted in Rapido updates, and having a good friend who models Canadian H0


Paul