Others will expand but I can report the following announcements etc.
Holdups in China with a lot of the current projects in all scales seem to be related to electronic issues. Given the fun manufacturers (not JUST Dapol and DJModels) have been having with self igniting circuit boards and other such issues why am I not surprised?
1. The HST prototype EP was running for everyone to gawp at, even though the young man running it seemed reluctant to slow it enough to get a decent photo. It was pulling at least one of the retooled Mark 3 PROTOTYPE coaches.
2. There will be at least 3 varieties of coach to go with the power cars. Tooling the difference took longer than they thought BUT has allowed some scope for making versions of Mark 3s with doors modified by more recent users of them. Currently they are waiting the decorated samples to arrive.
3. High Window Maunsell coaches are awaiting deco samples. Best estimate is mid 2020.
4. Mark 3 sleepers- the holdup with these has been to allow for extra liveries to be made. The decorated samples are due in 4 to 6 weeks. Apart from the extra liveries the big change is that they will be UNNUMBERED with decal sheets to allow people to make their own rakes and to make running more liveries more financially viable. There was an unpainted sample on display - it may have been going round with the two HST power cars but my picture wasn't distinctive enough.
5. The Bulleid is back in the active list but nothing further was said.
6. The M7 is back in the frame with a new DCC ready chassis being worked on for it.
Apart from that there seemed to be a huge number of NQP Britannias for sale and very few diesels, though I did get a pair of defective Class 33s which might make good ones using parts I have in stock from one I dropped breaking the main frame....
One other snippet was that there is now a CAD apprentice at Chirk with a view to doing a lot more CAD at the factory rather than subcontracting it to China.
Les
Interesting. Which new liveries on the sleepers? Not sure I can why having them unnumbered makes them more viable, people can double up on running numbers and renumber if they're that bothered. I imagine 90% will never see numbers fitted!
Quote from: njee20 on September 21, 2019, 11:45:51 PM
Interesting. Which new liveries on the sleepers? Not sure I can why having them unnumbered makes them more viable, people can double up on running numbers and renumber if they're that bothered. I imagine 90% will never see numbers fitted!
Probably saves on production cost and time. Fewer catalogue numbers, fewer box labels, fewer tampo passes, less QC to get same number both sides and in the correct box. Fewer complaints about the exact detail of the livery not matching the exact number on a particular date.. :-). Agree that most will not get numbered, and every forum will have its regular question about whether the livery is right for a particular number in a particular train on a particular date..
Good news on the HSDT prototype, and the possibility that the sliding door Mk3s might be coming.
Would liked to have seen the missing pretendolino coach tooled or more buffets to have correct rakes, but the sleeper is certainly one to catch the eye, should be able to have a lowland and highland rake with revolution doing the mk5s and the 92 on the way.
Hopefully they won't take as long as the nodding donkey too to get on the shelves
Still can't get the mk2s for the Caledonian Sleeper though.
You may have to do any converting, vinyl work! Yourself sadly. Could be an interesting model
The problem there is that vinyled coaches look odd against factory painted. The vinyls are excellent though, I've done several sets of Caledonian Sleepers.
Perhaps in the fullness of time Farish will do the appropriate mk2s, but I'm not holding my breath!
That is good to hear about the m7, hopefully the small prairie wil get similar treatment.
On the battle of Britain/west country, this isn't really news as on the face of it it's a repeat from 1 October last year. If anything it's bad news as last year dapol said it was at CAD stage with the model expected early 2020. To me it's somewhat disappointing.
The decorated samples of the maunsells have been waited for since march 19.
The above dates were taken from the dapol catalogue or digest pages of their website.
Very pleased to hear about the CAD apprentice being appointed.
Graham
I'd be very happy to see a retooled m7 chassis with room for a chip, hopefully with either a touch more weight or a traction tyre and stay alive combination. They are my favourite N gauge loco, very charming and actually run very smoothly on DCC, but they are hopeless under load! I've had to bullfrog snot all of mine to get them to take more than two maunsells up the hill.
On the other hand, the BB is bad news. Maybe with the class 50 off the blocks it'll get some attention, I'm hoping it's not just another land grab.
The BoB "land grab" happened in at latest 2012 was put on hold circa 2016 for fresh start which was announced in 2018.
Graham
Quote from: leachsprite4 on September 22, 2019, 08:55:46 AM
The BoB "land grab" happened in at latest 2012 was put on hold circa 2016 for fresh start which was announced in 2018.
Graham
Hi Graham,
Yes I remember, probably one of the longest running n gauge projects all in! I'm more concerned that it was only restarted to keep their territory claimed with no real intent of progressing, which from the outside appears to be the case. I don't like suspecting that; I'm a big fan of Dapol but it *should* be a relatively easy project - simple valve gear and overall shape, very well documented plans, plenty of space for any and all electronics... A spam can shouldn't be a tough project and if Dapol weren't on it, it would be an ideal candidate for Farish, Sonic/RevolutioN or even Union Mills if Colin fancied a valve gear challenge.
I dont disagree.
Quote from: leachsprite4 on September 22, 2019, 08:06:31 AM
That is good to hear about the m7, hopefully the small prairie wil get similar treatment.
On the battle of Britain/west country, this isn't really news as on the face of it it's a repeat from 1 October last year. If anything it's bad news as last year dapol said it was at CAD stage with the model expected early 2020. To me it's somewhat disappointing.
The decorated samples of the maunsells have been waited for since march 19.
The above dates were taken from the dapol catalogue or digest pages of their website.
Very pleased to hear about the CAD apprentice being appointed.
Graham
It is intended to revisit all of the early locos one at a time AFTER the M7. Note the phrase one at a time.
There was no announcement as to WHERE the BoB was in its production stages, but the new mechanism was completely different from anything Dapol (or as far as I'm aware anyone else) as done before, so it will take time to get it right. In OO and O the new push-fit sound has taken a long time to develop, and Andy commented that getting the Chinese to understand what is wanted on something completely new was not easy. The new boards in OO and O are also completely revolutionary. You open the smokebox door, slide the circuit board out along its runners, plug in the chip AND SPEAKER (the sugar cube is just held in place under a clip-fit housing) and slide the board back. No solddring, not even a screwdriver needed. It engages with a socket at the far end in the same was as a 6-pin decoder. Andy demonstrated fitting sound into a 14xx in under two minutes. Getting this concept across to the manufacturer and then WORKING samples back has taken a lot of time. The upgrade to the BoB is at least as complex to explain to the manufacturer.
Part of putting things on hold was to secure Dapol's financial position at the time. With the demise of DJModels I think we can all see what happens when a manufacturer takes on more projects than they are financially able to deliver.
Lastly on "land grabs" - when are we going to see the promised Farish J72? Not at all now as Bachmann now claim it is technically beyond them.
Les
Did they give any indication on how successful the Class 50 has been for them? I have one coming for my birthday next month (Rule 1) and I am looking forward to seeing how it runs etc. This will be my first Dapol loco purchase in a long time as I have not had a huge amount of success in the past. Good news they are planning to upgrade some of their older locomotives - great scope here to improve running, add DCC and overall build quality.
Kind regards
Paddy
Yeah, the M7 upgrade is of interest to me. :beers:
I didn't make the open day but thought I would add something based on conversation with Andy at TINGS.
The company have now, in his words, adopted a "pipeline" approach for N gauge (major projects at least). This means that, now the 50 is finished, the next one "down the pipe" is the WC / BOB.
I mentioned how eager I personally was for an N 59 and he said that is due, with the new style chassis from the 68 / 50, to go "down the pipe" after the aforementioned steamer.
New / upgraded chassis for steam in n wasn't mentioned to me (I didn't ask), but he did say it is unlikely sales would justify re-visiting older diesel designs with the intention of upgrading to match the 68/50 "baseline".
For me, confirmation the 59 should still happen is good enough atm.
Skyline2uk
That is very interesting. I'd really like a 59. It's the obvious gap in the modern scene.
Les
Thanks for starting this thread. I rejoined the Dapol club so that I could get 50007 and I see they are still promising BB/WC 340001 Exeter as a Club Special next year, so maybe they will make that deadline.
Good news about the M7 too. But I heard someone on the Dapol stand at TINGS say they were not progressing the BB/WC, so conflicting news there.
I am a little grateful that I decided not to spend 5 hours in the car to get to the Open Day (and back) as the message seems to be a little downbeat on Dapol N gauge products.
I would have thought that a concerted campaign to repeat in N what they have in OO would save on research and some CAD work, but their strategy seems to be no strategy other than financial. Now I'm sure that's important, but even Revolution produce OO models that are based on their N gauge ones (or vice versa).
Dapol had previously announced a 41xx/51xx/61xx in OO, along with a 63xx Mogul. Now I would have thought both of those (especially the Mogul, now DJM are not producing one) would be sensible for N gauge. Does anyone know if those are still in the running? I remember Hornby announcing a 51xx/61xx with the intention to get to market before Dapol, but the Mogul is quiet.
The 50 (and the 68 before it) are streets ahead of previous Dapol models for electronics quality and also run quality, but if Sonic can produce a delightful Taffy Tank at the same price point as Union Mills City of Truro then both Farish and Dapol need to watch their pricing strategy, or we will end up with N gauge being solely the remit of small manufacturers.(Revolution/Sonic/Accurascale/Union Mills etc).
This so called pipeline approach seems more like one product at a time approach, whereas a true pipeline would have different products each at different stages, following in line after the first one. I think Dapol need a bigger pipe, quite honestly, and not just to fit the O gauge models into!
Bob
Too true Bob, the pipeline is purely financial.
IF we make enough money off this one we can start this one.
The redevelopment of chassis 1 at a time is the Rover approach to business, keep selling the same stuff for 40 years but make 1 change and that will keep the punters coming back. And it worked so well for them!!!
Every single thing they try to do is late and it's always the same reason, "oh it took longer". Yes because you cant afford to make it happen quicker.
Quote from: exmouthcraig on September 22, 2019, 11:17:57 AM
Too true Bob, the pipeline is purely financial.
Joel is an accountant, after all, and so that view will remain all the time he is MD.
It reminds me of one of the consulting firms I used to work for.
When times got tough the business made the consultants (who were the only people able to generate revenue) redundant, because they were not bringing in enough revenue, but kept all the admin staff, because they were needed to tell management how badly the firm was doing (sorry all you admin people out there).
Small firms are more adept to change to circumstances than larger ones, which have a certain amount of inertia.
Farish are certainly in that mould, and Revolution in the small firm mould.
Dapol are somewhere in the middle, but I suspect they have all the overheads of a large firm and none of the adaptability of a small firm.
I'd like to see Dapol do more product development and take more risks, because they have already discounted crowdfunding as not fitting their business model.
Otherwise Revolution will end up being a bigger voice in the marketplace than Dapol.
Bob
Presumably the only way more product development and take more risks is only a viable option to someone whose got decent financial support and that seems to be the problem every way they turn.
With no crowd funding an option then banks are the only way forward and there must be reasons behind either not asking or not succeeding in securing money from outside sources.
The good thing behind that plan is IF they pull out of N or worse, out of everything altogether they dont loose modellers money they just leave us annoyed were not getting our models.
In the past Dapol took a riskier approach to N Gauge and I am not sure that made their business healthy. Dapol should invest where they can make the best return whether that is N, OO or O.
Personally, I would prefer they took the old Farish approach of one new loco a year and do it really well. Also, given the often quoted reliability issues of their older locos then there could be some low hanging fruit in terms of upgrades.
Some ideas for them...
1. Create an N Gauge box van and cash in on the exclusive limited edition market. The gunpowder van is not a substitute.
2. Crosti 9F.
3. High quality, upgraded re-releases.
Paddy
Quote from: Paddy on September 22, 2019, 11:53:40 AM
3. High quality, upgraded re-releases.
Paddy
Why, when there are plenty new opportunities out there, like an N gauge GWR mogul, for example. Never been done in N. Look at Sonic. They didnt ask the forum if anyone wanted an odd 0-6-2T seemingly only ever used in the Welsh Valleys.
But we are getting one and we have found they got a bit further away than the valleys. And we seem to like it too.
The ideal kettle to produce is one that has been preserved, as there will be the Era 9 people who fancy one as well. What's that I hear, the BB/WCs have been preserved...
Same with GWR mogul, and the Sonic 56xx.
Bob
Hi Bob,
Don't disagree - a good approach as well.
Paddy
And I think the whole world would like a better 9F
Bob
No news on the Chiltern Mainline coaches to go with the 68 Oxford Flyer which in my opinion is the best N gauge loco ever made I was hoping to get a rake of them ,as they come through High Wycombe and mt son and daughter both work for Chiltern .
Never mind the 68 is quite happy pulling the Wrexham and Shropshire set .which is better than nothing .
Why bring out such a lovely loco with no coaches though .
Bob Tidbury
My M7s can haul 9 Dapol Maunsells and 2 Farish bogie B vans on a 4'x2' oval; they do have some extra weight, when converting to the push pull fitted version the air pump and tanks were metal and there was also a small piece of lead on the cab floor for balance as most of the additional weight was at the front end, thus acting mostly on the front wheels .
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s23ryqnij2whacj/M7%2B11fwds.mp4?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/s23ryqnij2whacj/M7%2B11fwds.mp4?dl=0)
(Before the M7 hit the market I did hack a white metal kit (ABS Peter Drummond Highland Railway 0-6-4T, somewhat shortened) on a 14xx chassis with a rear bogie that will pull quite a bit more!)
Quote from: njee20 on September 22, 2019, 07:32:16 AM
The problem there is that vinyled coaches look odd against factory painted. The vinyls are excellent though, I've done several sets of Caledonian Sleepers.
Perhaps in the fullness of time Farish will do the appropriate mk2s, but I'm not holding my breath!
The last few years have seen some "odd" formations with the mK2 lounge and brake open replaced with IC liveried RFO and a BSO ex "preserved" stock so some bits easier to do, as an aside it seems the later MK2 matches MK1 ride height so eventual mixing of Dapol sleepers and MK2s possible. Hopefully by faffing with a HST TF, TRFM and TGS with buffers or swapping chassis with other MK3a stock a good bash can be done of the Penzance sleeper.
The Night Riviera is normally just mk3s isn't it? So much less of an issue, although a bit of artistic licence may be needed on the exact coaches.
The Caledonian Sleeper needs the mk2s.
nick
i went down last year on the Riviera took a family member birthday treat
Westbound (1C99) formation is generally Class 57 - BSO - TSO - RUB - 5x SLEP.
the formation was
57605, 17174, 12161, 10219, 10590, 10584, 10563, 10534, 10612
All the compartments are on the same side, for the whole length of the train. The compartments are normally on the 'South' side of the train.
At Paddington, the compartments are on the platform side.
So to summarise the last few post in this thread:
Wishlist on new models "Want Dapol to announce" (because the posters want them)
Same Posters:
"Want Dapol to stop announcing new stuff and get stuff they've announced in the shops quicker"
Same Posters also
"want Dapol to take more time to get better quality"
Arguments against "High quality, upgraded re-releases."
But same Poster "would like a better 9F"
All clear to everyone ::) :confused1: :uneasy: :hmmm:
I'm very happy that Dapol finally delivered the class 50, and very nice it is too. It's great that they have decided to carry on with the BoB. Over the last few years we have had the 142, the 68 and the 50 so a nice steady stream of new items. They also re-release existing models in new liveries. I say thanks Dapol for continuing with N and well done.
PS Could we have a pacer in chocolate and cream on the next run please?
Quote from: PLD on September 22, 2019, 09:37:11 PM
So to summarise the last few post in this thread:
Wishlist on new models "Want Dapol to announce" (because the posters want them)
Same Posters:
"Want Dapol to stop announcing new stuff and get stuff they've announced in the shops quicker"
Same Posters also
"want Dapol to take more time to get better quality"
Arguments against "High quality, upgraded re-releases."
But same Poster "would like a better 9F"
All clear to everyone ::) :confused1: :uneasy: :hmmm:
There is nothing like being quoted out of context.
My reply (initially regarding the Crosti 9F post, but not entirely related to this and more reflecting previous posts) was that (and you can interpret this any way you like) we would like a better 9F (i.e. if Graham Farish did one we would have been happier from the start).
And would you not want a better 9F? Tell me if you are more than happy with your current one, please.
Nothing to do with Dapol reworking their own 9F at all.
Sorry to be the butt of your joke.
Bob
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 22, 2019, 10:11:29 PM
PS Could we have a pacer in chocolate and cream on the next run please?
Dapol have said they would not be doing a chocolate and cream one. Something to do with their perceived failure on the WR (LOL) or maybe to do with not doing the correct early bus doors (LOL)
Whatever, they lost my business on the 142 about ten years ago.
Bob
Quote from: Bob G on September 22, 2019, 10:14:56 PM
Quote from: Chris Morris on September 22, 2019, 10:11:29 PM
PS Could we have a pacer in chocolate and cream on the next run please?
Dapol have said they would not be doing a chocolate and cream one. Something to do with their perceived failure on the WR (LOL) or maybe to do with not doing the correct early bus doors (LOL)
Whatever, they lost my business on the 142 about ten years ago.
Bob
The doors issue is probably more relevant.
The Mark 3 retooling to get the different doors on the prototypes has been done in such a way as to allow them to do some (probably not all) of the alternate doors that train operating companies have engineered onto the real things. Without this new product (done to support the power cars) the cost of changing doors would have been prohibitive.
Don't forget almost ANY retooling costs upwards of £10k. If the model sells 1000 you need to add £10 to the cost of each to cover this cost. If the tooling is £50K (which I've heard also) that unit cost is £60. How many Chocolate and Cream 142s would they sell? 300? - that is a "normal" production run. Would people stump up an extra £30 for the unit in this colour?
Tooling for OO and O is NOT vastly more expensive than for N. The difference is in the number of units that tooling cost is shared amongst. OO sells about 5 times as many of any given design. O gauge is a lot pricier. Both are much more profitable for any company.
One more aside - I can't remember which model it was (it was one of the O-gauge ones) but the comment was made that production will commence AT CHIRK as soon as the completed tooling has arrived from China. Dapol has put a lot of money into adding equipment into their factory and into training their people to work these. However the machines that make the tools from CAD are extremely expensive, and I suspect that while Dapol would like to have control in house it will take a few years to get to that stage.
Les
As no one has mentioned it.
What's a "Crusty 9F"?
Sorry.
Was there any mention of a revamp/re-run of their Voyager?
Thanks,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on September 22, 2019, 11:20:13 PM
Was there any mention of a revamp/re-run of their Voyager?
Thanks,
John P
No.
Les
Quote from: jpendle on September 22, 2019, 11:20:13 PM
As no one has mentioned it.
What's a "Crusty 9F"?
Hi John - I think this is what's being referred to :
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Crosti_boiler
Mike
Not on my wish list - I've already got one! (converted Minitrix - thanks, John)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/57/255-251017010426.jpeg)
Quote from: Les1952 on September 22, 2019, 10:44:48 PM
The doors issue is probably more relevant.
The Mark 3 retooling to get the different doors on the prototypes has been done in such a way as to allow them to do some (probably not all) of the alternate doors that train operating companies have engineered onto the real things. Without this new product (done to support the power cars) the cost of changing doors would have been prohibitive.
Don't forget almost ANY retooling costs upwards of £10k. If the model sells 1000 you need to add £10 to the cost of each to cover this cost. If the tooling is £50K (which I've heard also) that unit cost is £60. How many Chocolate and Cream 142s would they sell? 300? - that is a "normal" production run. Would people stump up an extra £30 for the unit in this colour?
Tooling for OO and O is NOT vastly more expensive than for N. The difference is in the number of units that tooling cost is shared amongst. OO sells about 5 times as many of any given design. O gauge is a lot pricier. Both are much more profitable for any company.
One more aside - I can't remember which model it was (it was one of the O-gauge ones) but the comment was made that production will commence AT CHIRK as soon as the completed tooling has arrived from China. Dapol has put a lot of money into adding equipment into their factory and into training their people to work these. However the machines that make the tools from CAD are extremely expensive, and I suspect that while Dapol would like to have control in house it will take a few years to get to that stage.
Les
This sums up Dapols future strategy, with the mk 3s, each TOC has a different version of plug doors and not all versions will be made, it is all to do with cost versus sales equals profitability. The dies have interchangeable slides for the sides and new tooling for the roofs. As for the decals for the sleepers, which will be the rub down type, the reasoning behind this is when the coaches are produced you can buy a rake straight away and number them without waiting for the factory to produce the numbers you want. This also means Dapol have less to produce and possibly less dead stock.
We have to bear in mind production costs have increased dramatically in China, all paid for in dollars and the pound has weakened against the dollar which limits how many items a company can invest in at any given time with no guarantee of sales. I feel it is wrong to compare Dapol with Revolution and the like, Dapol have far more overheads and the crowd funded models have assured sales.
Geoff
Hi all,
Geoff is right. Revolution's financial model is very different to Dapol's and it is a little unfair to compare the two.
Revolution are flexible, but can only produce models where enough customers are willing to put their money upfront because they want the model and trust us to deliver.
I don't think the hobby could function if every manufacturer acted in that way, since there are plenty who prefer to wait and see a model before committing, even if it does, in the case of Revolution products, mean paying more.
I believe Dapol are right to pursue a financial strategy that above all keeps them in business. And all their recent models that I have - 68, HIA, MJA - have been excellent.
Cheers
Ben A.
Hi
All I add to Mk3 is that there just two types of non slam door on HST/ Mk3a fleets - The Chiltern plug door took ideas from Irish and Wessex Electrics with a plug door and are now in the minority. HSTs The industry through two leasing companies took on a sliding into a pocket door solution - this meant in plan that door and pocket would be fitted by removing an existing section of bodyside and remove the end door hinge pillar. Currently Scotrail, GWR and XC have fleets to the same pattern TGS and trailer common to all but XC have helpfully got just 5 TCC =Trailer catering composite vehicles with some bodyside blanks. so Chiltern aside it is possible with to "do" new sets - but as these are shorter tooling cost spread over fewer vehicles so a cost jump more than assured. The Hst 252 model with the loco hauled roof could ensure the correct roof on the vehicles that were converted to trailers from Mk3a stock..
cheers
Robert
Hi All,
We sadly (not for my wallet maybe) I wasn't able to make it to the open day so it's more my take on what has been said on here and from chatting to them at TINGS.
I have to agree with Ben that Dapol taking this approach that they are taking makes sense in the current market and lets be honest if they did what has happened in the past with the market been overwhelmed with new models and liveries it doesn't appear to have done them any favours previously with stock sat on their and shops shelves for extended periods!
I have to decide which 50 to get as I haven't got one yet they are lovely models with some flaws I know but honestly it looks right for me so either a GBRf or BR blue one to become 50008 as ran by Hanson Rail.
As for the M7 and BOB/WC well its good news even thought I have no idea what they are brands of kettles? :P but hopefully after these the 59 may appear but time shall tell.
But away from the smart arse comments its good to hear things are progressing with the the HSDT and the Mk3 varieties especially the sleepers, and the idea of the decal sheets works I guess.
@Bob Tidbury (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3442) if you are after something to rung after your 68s you could use a blue/grey rake:
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/81/4166-230919160200.jpeg)
maybe not the plug doors but well no one can say it never ran like that!
:thankyousign: acko22 I might do that or get vynals from Adam .
I have got Mk3s in blue grey so will use those for the moment but without branding ,untill I can afford some more coaches and the vynals .
Bob Tidbury
I will be keen to have some of the new Dapol Mk3 sleepers
I have a lot of their current Mk3s and they are great coaches and importantly sell at a reasonable price
My view is that Dapol are producing coaches and wagons of great quality at the right price, not like a certain other major player