Disalusioned about my locos

[guest311]

However, in reference to your last point,  at the same time if certain manufacturers can get it right, why can't the two major Uk ones? I have known many modellers over the years who have taken up US, Continental or Japanese modelling because of reliability issues.

my point was that Dapol, Farish etc are mass producing models, perhaps the other manufacturers you are thinking of have a smaller product run, and more of a 'built' rather than 'assembled' attitude.

[EtchedPixels]

CJM models just work. You pay £500 quid for them however.

Union Mills locos work reliably but all the models are designed to use a standardised tender drive mechanism refined over the years.

Dapol & Bachmann both have the same problem - you design a model at great expense, you cut the tooling, you make several hundred, you ship them. Only then do you find any unexpected problems like the class 04 pickups or the Dapol axles that slipped out of quartering or came apart over time. You don't get to fix a model usually, you merely get to learn for the next one (or possibly not even that but several releases later).

Some things are inexcusable - Bachmann UK have had 15 years to fix split gears since they took over Farish and they *STILL* can't get it right, yet their US arm has changed the gear designs for some years and now offers a lifetime guarantee.

Alan

[Biggy]

Hi just to clarify I am not saying that those with the knowledge and experience are a problem. On the contrary I have been helped by many on this forum and elsewhere. Nor am I saying that the less experienced are a problem. The problem I was trying to highlight is with the manufacturer who are trying to serve both "types" of customer. Some might accept an increased cost for better quality others might object because they can overcome the issue being addressed. Also it is clear that some find different issues to before acceptable than others do.
Also with my problem, where the issue originates is not clear and this is also hard for the manufacturer to address.

As a general point the willingness of retailers and manufacturers to help with product issues is in my opinion and experience exemplary.

I must make clear that my points were not a criticism of the likes of Dr Al whose knowledge and help have been gratefully received by a returnee like me.

[railsquid]

As my tag line say; "Have the confidence to look under the bonnet of your locos", but I'd draw the line with brand new stuff now.

That reminds me, must enquire about sending back my Dapol Western which seems to be very much DOA (stuttered then conked out with an electric/burning smell). I suspect I could probably bludgeon it back to life somehow but if I'd wanted something to tinker with I'd have bought a non-runner 2nd hand (which I have succesfully done before, and with a Dapol loco to boot ).

[Dr Al]

Dapol Western which seems to be very much DOA (stuttered then conked out with an electric/burning smell)

Will either be Dapol motor syndrome or a burnt out PCB cap in all likelihood.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

Some might accept an increased cost for better quality others might object because they can overcome the issue being addressed.

I think this is the area I don't agree with a lot. Much of the issues that are seen would not be improved by simply throwing money at it. It costs the same to design something poorly as it does to do it right. Dapol have demonstrated this with some of theirs.

So I wouldn't accept that we should need to pay more in terms of design to get better.

Where the cost comes in may be on QC. If we wanted every model thoroughly checked and tested prior to shipping then I expect this would cost more. Each to their own as to whether they'd accept addition of this cost to the model. The acid test of this will be when DJM do it with their forthcoming models, as that's been promised.

Cheers,
Alan

[Chris Morris]

I think this is the area I don't agree with a lot. Much of the issues that are seen would not be improved by simply throwing money at it. It costs the same to design something poorly as it does to do it right. Dapol have demonstrated this with some of theirs.

So I wouldn't accept that we should need to pay more in terms of design to get better.

The development, testing and redesigning together with longer development time means the initial investment for a model that will be consistently perfect would mean a higher up front investment cost which would have to be recouped in the price of the loco.
Manufacture in Europe with better communications and workers who understand the product would help to improve consistency of quality but the cost base would be very significantly higher than China.
Another problem is that Dapol just aren't a big enough customer to much clout over the manufacturer. I'm not sure whether Bachmann UK will have very much influence of what goes on at their owners factory in China either.
I think we could have much better consistency if we were prepared to pay a higher price.
If it was possible to be better at the current price points I'm sure someone would have done it!

I'm still massively impressed with the quality of detail on all modern N locos. The union mills locos may be more reliable but  for me they aren't in the same class as dapol and GF for detail.

[austinbob]

I think this is the area I don't agree with a lot. Much of the issues that are seen would not be improved by simply throwing money at it. It costs the same to design something poorly as it does to do it right. Dapol have demonstrated this with some of theirs.

So I wouldn't accept that we should need to pay more in terms of design to get better.

The development, testing and redesigning together with longer development time means the initial investment for a model that will be consistently perfect would mean a higher up front investment cost which would have to be recouped in the price of the loco.
Manufacture in Europe with better communications and workers who understand the product would help to improve consistency of quality but the cost base would be very significantly higher than China.
Another problem is that Dapol just aren't a big enough customer to much clout over the manufacturer. I'm not sure whether Bachmann UK will have very much influence of what goes on at their owners factory in China either.
I think we could have much better consistency if we were prepared to pay a higher price.
If it was possible to be better at the current price points I'm sure someone would have done it!

I'm still massively impressed with the quality of detail on all modern N locos. The union mills locos may be more reliable but  for me they aren't in the same class as dapol and GF for detail.

As I've said many times before I would be happy to pay a higher price to guarantee good quality.

[DesertHound]

My closing remarks on this would be that the issue of a product's suitability for use (or to put it another way, whether it is fit for purpose) should not be blurred with what an individual could do to make it fit for purpose.

Here are a few examples, which, to my mind sit in the same context as our discussion above, and which I think most people would find unacceptable;

You buy a new car and there's a technical issue. If you we're a mechanic would you say "ah well, I'll fix it myself". Maybe you would, but most people aren't car mechanics.

You but a new TV and it's faulty. If you we're a TV repairman you might say, ah well, I'll fix it myself. Most people aren't TV repairmen.

And so it goes for brand new locomotives. Many people either don't know how to, or don't want to, fix something thryve literally just taken out of the box. More importantly, they don't feel they should have to.

If I were a car mechanic or TV repairman I'd take the above said items back too, regardless if I could repair them.

Dan

[austinbob]

My closing remarks on this would be that the issue of a product's suitability for use (or to put it another way, whether it is fit for purpose) should not be blurred with what an individual could do to make it fit for purpose.

Here are a few examples, which, to my mind sit in the same context as our discussion above, and which I think most people would find unacceptable;

You buy a new car and there's a technical issue. If you we're a mechanic would you say "ah well, I'll fix it myself". Maybe you would, but most people aren't car mechanics.

You but a new TV and it's faulty. If you we're a TV repairman you might say, ah well, I'll fix it myself. Most people aren't TV repairmen.

And so it goes for brand new locomotives. Many people either don't know how to, or don't want to, fix something thryve literally just taken out of the box. More importantly, they don't feel they should have to.

If I were a car mechanic or TV repairman I'd take the above said items back too, regardless if I could repair them.

Dan

Thank you Dan. You've put into effective words part of what I've been trying to say.

[Dr Al]

The development, testing and redesigning together with longer development time means the initial investment for a model that will be consistently perfect would mean a higher up front investment cost which would have to be recouped in the price of the loco.

I'm not sure I agree. These are basic basic basic mechanical systems, there's very little novel or complex about them. Lets look at an example - the Dapol A3.

There are known problems with the tender pickup system on this model. I have no less than 7 of them (I'd have zero if I'd sent them all back...  ). That doesn't count A4s I have which have the same tender and therefore the same issue. The tender pickup design is fundamentally poor as it uses through hole bearings, meaning that pickup can be erratic as the axle pints on the wheels don't make good contact at all times with the holes in the pickup strips. To redesign this would not have cost more - there are 3 immediate alternatives, and likely others:
- pinpoints (Dapol have used before, though with a long wheelbase tender I accept that this may not be feasible),
- wipers (Dapol have used on drivers of other locos and of course it's an idea that's been used forever, and used on Farish A3s for example, so a proven concept)
- axle pickups on two pivotting trucks (Minitrix did this, again a proven concept).
- Even more basic would simply be to add more tender weight.

All are simple concepts and I'd contend that any product design engineer worth their salt should be able to incorporate one in the same design time as what they ultimately chose. Worse, the chosen concept has now spread to other models, like the 28xx, Grange and revised Manor. (wonder why your A4 is noisy? This is part of the reason.....)

So I struggle to really buy the idea that development of a good concept should cost more than that of a bad one, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples - *thinks Farish 47 with ride height issues - they got the 57 right and it cost the same as the later 47s where the ride height was all wrong. (and the 57 is just a 47 with detail differences).

Cheers,
Alan

[Newportnobby]

Given the Chinese authorities have decreed wages must rise by 20% every year for 5 years (and I believe there are still 3 more years of that to go) it would not surprise me if larger locos in 3 years time will be knocking on £200 or so. I would wager we'll still be complaining about poor QC then as well, that's if we haven't all stopped buying and the manufacturers have gone out of business as a result. I can't see the latter scenario occurring, though.

[Bealman]

I've known a number of Kato modellers over the years and have never heard of any of them having trouble with their locos. I certainly didn't hear of any being sent back.

[MalcolmInN]

Given the Chinese authorities have decreed wages must rise by 20% every year for 5 years (and I believe there are still 3 more years of that to go) it would not surprise me if larger locos in 3 years time will be knocking on £200 or so.

I think that might follow if the currency the wages are paid in was 'free'. However - it aint !
At the moment the workers are paid with 'tokens', the value of these tokens is chosen by the government *. This was amply demonstrated in those two devaluations recently, resulting in the worth of the products against £ or $, or others, being arbitrary ( well maybe not arbitrary in the true meaning of the word, since it was driven by 2 forms of panic).
Hence there is a circular discussion to be had !
It would not be surprising, given the present state of the Chinese economy and the desire for future growth, to find that the cost (in £ or $ ) of the products out to us to fall. ?

The big elephant in the room is a lack of competition,, perhaps -- but no that is not true,, there is competition as someone pointed out but it'll cost £500, or something like in real conch shells

* no good increasing the wages by 20% if you then devalue those wages by ummm, what was it, 15% declared but larger in 'real' terms.

[railsquid]

I've known a number of Kato modellers over the years and have never heard of any of them having trouble with their locos. I certainly didn't hear of any being sent back.

The first one I ever bought - new - was duff (rough motor, non-working lights, bits falling off easily) and had to send it back, though everything I've bought since then has been fine.