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General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 07:33:42 AM

Title: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 07:33:42 AM
I recently purchased a second hand version of the latest Farish Castle and remembered that there were reports of some locos not being able to pull a prototypical load up an incline. There have been similar doubts that the new Wainwright Class C might struggle with long trains.

I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don't run completely prototypical trains. I do generally get the type of wagons or coaches right  though. Even if I had a vast layout and an underperforming loco I'd probably just shorten the train.

It's never been a factor that's bothered me and I certainly wouldn't resort to Bullfrog Snot or not buying a particular loco because it couldn't emulate the full sized version.

I suppose it's just a matter of 'to each his own'

:NGaugersRule:

Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: PLD on August 14, 2019, 07:53:02 AM
Realistically, the locos that do match the prototype haulage capacity are going to be the exceptions.

A Steam Loco is a very heavy piece of machinery - a while back in a similar thread, someone worked out that if the weight was scaled down in relation to the volume, a typical British Pacific type should be in the region of 3kg in N gauge!

Add to that that we expect them to perform on unrealistically steep grades and around unrealistically tight curves, I don't think most types do too badly...
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: RailGooner on August 14, 2019, 07:56:27 AM
Highly desirable, but not a deal breaker. Accuracy and detail fidelity are my first priority. :beers:
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 07:59:48 AM
Prototypical doesn't bother me, but I want locos to be able to haul the trains I intend for them. For freight locos that's still almost always shorter than the real thing.

The Dapol 68 and 66 consistently fall short on this front.

Doesn't stop me buying necessarily (I still have a 68), but it's a factor - I nearly always buy Farish 66s instead now.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 08:20:15 AM
It's something I've read a lot about on the forum over the years.

It doesn't figure at all in my reasoning. If I decide I like a particular model, I'll get it, regardless of haulage capacity.

I have a fairly long and torturous gradient on my layout (completely hidden, too), and I've never had a problem with any of my locos.

My Poole Farish Scotsman had a bit of wheelslip near the end of this video, but that's the only problem I can recall!

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38783.msg465242#msg465242 (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38783.msg465242#msg465242)
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Steven B on August 14, 2019, 08:49:05 AM
Quote from: PLD on August 14, 2019, 07:53:02 AM
A Steam Loco is a very heavy piece of machinery - a while back in a similar thread, someone worked out that if the weight was scaled down in relation to the volume, a typical British Pacific type should be in the region of 3kg in N gauge!

Someone was out by a factor of 148. An LNER A4 is 374300lb in full working order - 169780kg. Divide by 148 three times (once per dimension as mass is related to volume not area) and you get 52g (2-3oz).

Personally I like my locos to haul prototypical trains. Fortunately there are plenty of examples of most locos pulling very short trains for those that don't life up to expectations.

RM Web has a couple of threads with short trains and big locos:
Large-locos-on-short-trains (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139338-large-locos-on-short-trains/)
freight-superpower-or-overkil (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/48369-freight-superpower-or-overkill/)

Steven B.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: ntpntpntp on August 14, 2019, 08:53:42 AM
For me, a model has to be able to haul a reasonable train for it's size.  Not necessarily a full prototypical length but satisfying-looking.  My layout is not huge by any means.

I'd rather a loco runs smoothly and reliably than be absolutely true to fidelity, after all from normal viewing distances all the tiny little details aren't really noticeable as a train runs by.

If a loco is a poor hauler then of course that is a disappointment. The worst examples for haulage that I've experienced (and I do own probably a couple of hundred locos and multiple units) are definitely the old Minitrix 2-6-0 tender locos (both the British Ivatt and the German class 24). None of these have lived long in the fleet, and are mostly in bits in my boxes of spares. I think there's one complete example somewhere but it never surfaces nowadays.  I seem to recall my Farish 4-4-0 compound wasn't particularly strong either. I think in all those cases, over-stiff tender pickups were a large factor in haulage reduction.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 09:06:31 AM
I had one of those Minitrix Ivatts which I bought new, apart from not being able to pull much mine ran really badly. I'd bought it at a show and it was tested on a layout but I couldn't hear how noisy it was in the exhibition hall. It languished in a box for years before I gave it away. I would say it was the most disappointing loco purchase I've ever made. I would have been happy if it had run well light engine but it never did.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: kirky on August 14, 2019, 09:15:06 AM
For me, this has become a significant factor - probably the most significant factor above detailing and accuracy, although I want my trains to be as realistic as possible.
This is because we run our trains in exhibition conditions with 2/3 prototypical loads. We have some slight inclines on the layout - about 50mm over 6 feet. But still, as Nick says, the Dapols often struggle. And remember we are running in the main hefty co-cos which should easily be able to cope. I think we would really struggle with steamers up the inclines. One of our team runs his CJM 66s and 50s and they run with problems, they just dont have lights!

cheers
kirky
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Paul-H on August 14, 2019, 09:23:18 AM
Two extreams of this

My Dapol 9F can only pull about 8 loaded wagons

My Old Farish Railcar can pull every coach and wagon I own and it's quite a few.

Lack of haulage wouldn't stop me buying a loco though, as long as it had some haulage capacity.

Paul
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 09:39:25 AM
Quote from: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 09:06:31 AM
I had one of those Minitrix Ivatts which I bought new, apart from not being able to pull much mine ran really badly. I'd bought it at a show and it was tested on a layout but I couldn't hear how noisy it was in the exhibition hall. It languished in a box for years before I gave it away. I would say it was the most disappointing loco purchase I've ever made. I would have been happy if it had run well light engine but it never did.

Actually, you've just reminded me.

I've got one too, and it's exactly the same.  :(
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 09:44:41 AM
I can't speak for kettles, but with modern diesels It's partially a function of our demand for more features: working lights, DCC, cab interiors, sound ready etc etc. It all means taking out mass from the chassis.

I await the Revolution 92 with interest in this respect; given Rapido have been staunch defenders of making their wagons to NMRA standard weights, meaning a lot of other locos struggle with even comparatively modest rakes. I'm hopeful that the 92 will achieve the holy grail of sound-friendly but still with adequate mass to haul a proper train.

The much vaunted CJM models, which do have stunning haulage, obviously forego lights and (easy) DCC compatibility, Kato make DCC an afterthought, and so on.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 07:33:42 AM
I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don't run completely prototypical trains.

I think this is crucial. Few people run realistic length trains. But then again, performance is measured in multiple ways. My ranking would be something like this:

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: chrism on August 14, 2019, 10:38:35 AM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on August 14, 2019, 08:53:42 AMThe worst examples for haulage that I've experienced (and I do own probably a couple of hundred locos and multiple units) are definitely the old Minitrix 2-6-0 tender locos (both the British Ivatt

A friend has one of those - it's pulling power is appalling, as in it can't even pull itself very well. The traction tyres are present, but do look a tad "polished". We had to get a very strong magnifying glass out to ascertain that they were there.

I have a Farish one and it's perfectly acceptable. I also have a Dapol Ivatt tank but I can't really tell how good the pulling power is because it has an annoying habit of popping the front truck off the rails at the slightest opportunity. Must see if I can add some weight or springing to the truck sometime.

My Farish Fowler 4F isn't too good, their 3F Jinty will pull better despite being smaller and lighter. If I want to pull a long train, then  the Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower come out - they'll pull every bit of stock I possess around the most tortuous route I can set without complaining at all.


Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
A loco is no use whatsoever if it can't pull a reasonable load for its size. All of my diesels are adequate, both Dapol and Farish. Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco and the new Farish Castle is perculiar in that it is fine on the flat but not good enough on inclines. I've added weight to it and it is now just about usable. All my other steam outline are fine with special praise for the Dapol 28xx which pulls well on inclines so long as both traction tyres are in place.
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 11:06:43 AM
Can't say I have, I've got three 2+8 HSTs and haven't had any gear issues. They don't go up the gradient all that often, but romp up without issue when asked.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: crewearpley40 on August 14, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
chrism :

My Farish Fowler 4F isn't too good, their 3F Jinty will pull better despite being smaller and lighter. If I want to pull a long train, then  the Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower come out - they'll pull every bit of stock I possess around the most tortuous route I can set without complaining at all.


sad that fact the Fowler 4F is not up to scratch, yet a Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower  - are the mechanisms / tooling / engineering just much more quality, made to last , be capable ?

i have some older farish locos and a couple are resigned to shed scenes, yet my class 25 is oddly enough the best performer, compared to a class 24 i received one christmas ( now discontinued ) and it had numerous issues so sent it back
after complaints - now i have a class 25 ( number 2 ) which the company agreed i could swap for after complaints and subsequent investigations and im not technical minded
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco...
The problem is that the driving wheels are under the lightest part of the model. I've got two 9Fs, the weathered ones, and while they look gorgeous, they aren't especially strong (though mine will put a dozen or so wagons without problems) but they do sound very noisy by modern standards. Indeed, my Minitrix Britannia and Peco Jubilee are both much quieter and more pleasant to watch, even if they aren't such good models.

Quote from: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?
Rookie mistake. You need two power cars, one at each end -- just like the real thing! The dummy power car is just for show!

Cheers, Nemo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: crewearpley40 on August 14, 2019, 11:25:56 AM
agree with you about the need for two hst power cars - both must have power to give greater capacity, haulage and work effectively in my opinion
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 11:28:59 AM
Works for the Revolution Pendolino, although I notice mine fighting each other slightly when starting off.

I personally find the Dapol HST has plenty of power as is, the bigger issue is the propensity of the mk3s to uncouple when pulled or derail when pushed!
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 11:34:05 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
A loco is no use whatsoever if it can't pull a reasonable load for its size. All of my diesels are adequate, both Dapol and Farish. Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco and the new Farish Castle is perculiar in that it is fine on the flat but not good enough on inclines. I've added weight to it and it is now just about usable. All my other steam outline are fine with special praise for the Dapol 28xx which pulls well on inclines so long as both traction tyres are in place.
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?

It's a train set, for heaven's sake!

Gradients? If I was to build a new layout, it would be flat, and preferably without any points whatsoever.

I'd still have landscape going up and down around the level trackbed.

Haulage? In this scale?

Talk about getting upset about nuthin'

Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: chrism on August 14, 2019, 11:35:38 AM
Quote from: crewearpley40 on August 14, 2019, 11:18:29 AM
QuoteMy Farish Fowler 4F isn't too good, their 3F Jinty will pull better despite being smaller and lighter. If I want to pull a long train, then  the Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower come out - they'll pull every bit of stock I possess around the most tortuous route I can set without complaining at all.

sad that fact the Fowler 4F is not up to scratch, yet a Union Mills 3F or 2F Cauliflower  - are the mechanisms / tooling / engineering just much more quality, made to last , be capable ?

They are just completely different beasts. The Farish 4F is a lightish plastic thing whereas the UM locos are heavy, both tender and loco, with a decent drive and traction tyres on the driven tender. I think the UM locos alone, even though they are the unpowered part, weigh more than the Farish 4F complete and the UM tenders probably weigh more than  the 4F too - which, along with the traction tyres, gives them very good adhesion.

Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Webbo on August 14, 2019, 11:38:49 AM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 07:33:42 AM
I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don't run completely prototypical trains.

I think this is crucial. Few people run realistic length trains. But then again, performance is measured in multiple ways. My ranking would be something like this:

  • Quietness: nothing is more off-putting than a loco that sounds like gravel chucked into a paper shredder.

  • Handle gaps in electrical contact well: locos should have an adequate span of electrical contacts that allows them to move slowly over insulated sections without stopping.
  • Sensitivity to slow speed running: it matters more to me how well the loco moves slowly (though not necessarily crawling) for semi-realistic shunting movements, rather than if it can hare around the track at 125 mph!
  • Gradients: even if the loco doesn't need to haul massive trains, it should be able to handle a reasonable load up a "train set" gradient without slipping.
  • Durability: I don't mean that the loco should have to survive a drop into the carpet (though that'd be nice) but rather than fundamental components have a realistic expectation to endure a reasonable period of use -- I'm kind of resigned to the fact Dapol lights last maybe a couple hours actual running before they die, having experienced that so often it's no longer a surprise when it happens.

Cheers, NeMo

You've just described the attributes of all Kato locomotives that I have had anything to do with. My 6-axle SD40s are each capable of pulling 30+ 50' box cars on level dirty track.

Webbo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 11:39:36 AM
I am with George on this. I appreciate that there are people out there who have to have everything spot on and prototypical, but for me, if a loco' can pull 2 or 3 carriages, or a few wagons, that will do.

Quote from: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 11:34:05 AM

It's a train set, for heaven's sake!

Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 11:43:03 AM
I seem to be in an agreeable mood this morning.  :). Webbo is correct, "You've just described the attributes of all Kato locomotives that I have had anything to do with", my sentiments eggsackerly!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 11:45:39 AM
Good morning to ya.  :thumbsup:

Not far off turning in here.  :beers:

(Once the Bachelor is finished, then I'll go home from the club)  ;D
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 11:50:13 AM
Quote from: Webbo on August 14, 2019, 11:38:49 AM
You've just described the attributes of all Kato locomotives that I have had anything to do with. My 6-axle SD40s are each capable of pulling 30+ 50' box cars on level dirty track.

Funnily enough, the one US loco I have is an old (1995) Kato SD45 bought secondhand for £50 at least fifteen years ago. It still works like a charm, slowly and silently picking up speed, negotiating points smoothly, and hauling anything I can stick behind it. At some point it lost its cab roof horns (which I really should replace!) but otherwise it's faultless.

It's the benchmark against which I compare all of my models. Some hold up well, the Farish 'Warship' for example seems similarly smooth and quiet, and is of course incrementally better detailed and DCC-ready. But I've yet to buy any Dapol diesel that either didn't require some sort of fettling or else experienced some sort of failure. I like Dapol models, I really do; they seem to 'nail' the look of many diesel classes really well, but they still don't compare to even 30-year-old Kato models when it comes to reliability or durability.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 11:53:27 AM
Yes sir!

The running qualities of Kato are legendary.

Kato is the benchmark.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 11:54:57 AM
Quote from: Bealman on August 14, 2019, 11:34:05 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
A loco is no use whatsoever if it can't pull a reasonable load for its size. All of my diesels are adequate, both Dapol and Farish. Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco and the new Farish Castle is perculiar in that it is fine on the flat but not good enough on inclines. I've added weight to it and it is now just about usable. All my other steam outline are fine with special praise for the Dapol 28xx which pulls well on inclines so long as both traction tyres are in place.
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?

It's a train set, for heaven's sake!

Gradients? If I was to build a new layout, it would be flat, and preferably without any points whatsoever.

I'd still have landscape going up and down around the level trackbed.

Haulage? In this scale?

Talk about getting upset about nuthin'

How unnecessary. He's not upset, merely expressing an opinion. Why don't we just say "it's only toy trains", close the forum and go and do something else?

Quote from: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 11:39:36 AM
I am with George on this. I appreciate that there are people out there who have to have everything spot on and prototypical, but for me, if a loco' can pull 2 or 3 carriages, or a few wagons, that will do.

There's an enormous gulf between those two things. IRL a freight train may have 40 wagons. I want mine to manage 15-20. That's a good length for me. Having large locos that can only haul 2 wagons would be absolutely daft! Can you imagine all the large exhibition layouts with locos hauling 2 wagons!?
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:09:41 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 09:56:48 AM
Quote from: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 07:33:42 AM
I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don't run completely prototypical trains.

I think this is crucial. Few people run realistic length trains. But then again, performance is measured in multiple ways. My ranking would be something like this:

  • Quietness: nothing is more off-putting than a loco that sounds like gravel chucked into a paper shredder.
  • Handle gaps in electrical contact well: locos should have an adequate span of electrical contacts that allows them to move slowly over insulated sections without stopping.
  • Sensitivity to slow speed running: it matters more to me how well the loco moves slowly (though not necessarily crawling) for semi-realistic shunting movements, rather than if it can hare around the track at 125 mph!
  • Gradients: even if the loco doesn't need to haul massive trains, it should be able to handle a reasonable load up a "train set" gradient without slipping.
  • Durability: I don't mean that the loco should have to survive a drop into the carpet (though that'd be nice) but rather than fundamental components have a realistic expectation to endure a reasonable period of use -- I'm kind of resigned to the fact Dapol lights last maybe a couple hours actual running before they die, having experienced that so often it's no longer a surprise when it happens.

Cheers, NeMo

For me, NeMo's criteria are fairly close.

Ultimately, I need:
1. Pulling capacity for 10-12 free rolling coaches for expresses, 6-8 for medium trains and 4 for light suburbans, or an equivalent number of wagons, up to 100 4 wheelers for a Garratt, and 36 for a modern MGR Hopper train. Typical trains will be around 30. HSTs 8+2.
2. Slow speed - I totally agree with NeMo, that proper creep performance is vital. No stalling, no cogging, no inconsistency. It's why I've converted so many older Union Mills to Mashima power for example.
3. No wobbles. Apart from poor slow speed, there is nothing that destroys the scene more than a loco that wobbles along the track or going round curves. These are always fettled out or ultimately replaced.
4. Durability - totally agreed.

I have no concern for gradient performance as I refuse to ever consider using gradients - they just seem a minefield of potential trouble.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:10:36 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 09:56:48 AM
I'm kind of resigned to the fact Dapol lights last maybe a couple hours actual running before they die, having experienced that so often it's no longer a surprise when it happens.[/li][/list]

What control are you running, NeMo?

These are often easily fixed - it's the dual diode package that most often fails - the BAT54C diode array. I've repaired a stack load for folks.

What I don't understand, and still want to find out is what actually causes the failure as I've never actually seen one expire 'live'.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: chrism on August 14, 2019, 10:38:35 AM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on August 14, 2019, 08:53:42 AMThe worst examples for haulage that I've experienced (and I do own probably a couple of  old Minitrix 2-6-0 tender locos

A friend has one of those - it's pulling power is appalling, as in it can't even pull itself very well. The traction tyres are present, but do look a tad "polished". We had to get a very strong magnifying glass out to ascertain that they were there.

These locos always generate the same response of poor haulage. The reason, in my experience of re-furbing around 30+ is that not one had a good set of tyres on them. You must replace them, as the newest are 25 years old and some are close to 45. If they are transparent coloured then they'll definitely be hardened and functionally useless.

Changing the tyres, cleaning, lubricating (sparingly!!!) and ensuring all gear meshing and relative wheel alignment is sorted will give a loco capable of pulling 8 free rolling coaches no problem.

HTH,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:21:49 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
Dapol 9F is hopeless for a heavy freight loco...
The problem is that the driving wheels are under the lightest part of the model. I've got two 9Fs, the weathered ones, and while they look gorgeous, they aren't especially strong (though mine will put a dozen or so wagons without problems) but they do sound very noisy by modern standards.

They shouldn't be too noisy.

I've seen a couple where the loco pickups have had a dramatic effect on the pulling power - one had the pickups on the rear two wheels flat against the chassis on one side. I didn't anticipate this changing the haulage, but I reset it for better pickup and was surprised to find the haulage went up significantly - perhaps not having the wheels pushed hard to one size helped the total adhesion.

Another issue, is that some of the later production seem to suffer bowed chassis such that the central (all plastic) wheelset acts like a see-saw fulcrum that the loco see-saws on. This tends to give wobbly running too. With the chassis being plastic, it's possible to lightly file out the slot to correct this, but it's not the easiest of adjustments.

Maybe some of these can help folks improve their models...

....or maybe a good one to suggest to Hattons for their next N model (!!!). A much improved 9F may well be popular?

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: chrism on August 14, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: chrism on August 14, 2019, 10:38:35 AM
Quote from: ntpntpntp on August 14, 2019, 08:53:42 AMThe worst examples for haulage that I've experienced (and I do own probably a couple of  old Minitrix 2-6-0 tender locos

A friend has one of those - it's pulling power is appalling, as in it can't even pull itself very well. The traction tyres are present, but do look a tad "polished". We had to get a very strong magnifying glass out to ascertain that they were there.

These locos always generate the same response of poor haulage. The reason, in my experience of re-furbing around 30+ is that not one had a good set of tyres on them. You must replace them, as the newest are 25 years old and some are close to 45. If they are transparent coloured then they'll definitely be hardened and functionally useless.

Changing the tyres, cleaning, lubricating (sparingly!!!) and ensuring all gear meshing and relative wheel alignment is sorted will give a loco capable of pulling 8 free rolling coaches no problem.


Cheers - I'll tell him that, if he wants it to work properly, he's got to drop the motion  :D

Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:24:41 PM
Quote from: Chris Morris on August 14, 2019, 10:56:28 AM
I've recently found that the gears on the Dapol HST may not be up to hauling a full length train up gradients . They seem to wear down very quickly. Has anyone else has this problem?

Never seen it on full length train, but don't run mine on gradients.

I'd check if the wiper pickups on the underside of the chassis blocks are too tense and are then lifting the loco fractionally off the bogies allowing poorer meshing - I'd suspect this could be contributor, and easing them off so the loco definitely sits fully down on the bogies.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: chrism on August 14, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
Cheers - I'll tell him that, if he wants it to work properly, he's got to drop the motion  :D

You shouldn't need to remove anything more than the front crank pins.

I've done loads, so if he needs help, let me know.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: chrism on August 14, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:25:29 PM
Quote from: chrism on August 14, 2019, 12:24:15 PM
Cheers - I'll tell him that, if he wants it to work properly, he's got to drop the motion  :D

You shouldn't need to remove anything more than the front crank pins.

I've done loads, so if he needs help, let me know.


Thanks, I'll tell him.
To preempt his anticipated question - are they screwed in, pressed in or what? If screwed in, is one side a LH thread?


Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 12:28:58 PM
Quote from: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 11:54:57 AM



Quote from: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 11:39:36 AM
I am with George on this. I appreciate that there are people out there who have to have everything spot on and prototypical, but for me, if a loco' can pull 2 or 3 carriages, or a few wagons, that will do.

There's an enormous gulf between those two things. IRL a freight train may have 40 wagons. I want mine to manage 15-20. That's a good length for me. Having large locos that can only haul 2 wagons would be absolutely daft! Can you imagine all the large exhibition layouts with locos hauling 2 wagons!?

I appreciate what you are saying, but I did say 2 or 3 carriages or a few wagons. Layouts at exhibitions tend to be more prototypical, pulling a dozen or so carriages, or 20 or more wagons and they do look quite impressive. I never said owt about a large loco' pulling 2 wagons.  :beers:
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: crewearpley40 on August 14, 2019, 12:32:31 PM
thanks chrism for answering my point
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 12:35:59 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 12:28:58 PM
Quote from: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 11:54:57 AM
Quote from: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 11:39:36 AM
I am with George on this. I appreciate that there are people out there who have to have everything spot on and prototypical, but for me, if a loco' can pull 2 or 3 carriages, or a few wagons, that will do.

There's an enormous gulf between those two things. IRL a freight train may have 40 wagons. I want mine to manage 15-20. That's a good length for me. Having large locos that can only haul 2 wagons would be absolutely daft! Can you imagine all the large exhibition layouts with locos hauling 2 wagons!?

I appreciate what you are saying, but I did say 2 or 3 carriages or a few wagons. Layouts at exhibitions tend to be more prototypical, pulling a dozen or so carriages, or 20 or more wagons and they do look quite impressive. I never said owt about a large loco' pulling 2 wagons.  :beers:

Alright, replace the last word of my post with "carriages" then ;)

I understand that if you've got a small layout then that will suffice (indeed on any size layout as long as your locos haul what you want you'll be happy; you don't really need 'haulage in reserve'), but like I say, there's a massive difference between wanting everything to be "spot on and prototypical", with associated derogation and having the bear minimum requirements.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 12:40:14 PM
No "derogation" meant or intended - if anyone has taken my comments that way, I apologise. I was only trying to get my point across that some people want 'true to life' running, whilst others, like myself, just like to see trains, (in any form) run round the layout.  :beers:
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:59:19 PM
Quote from: chrism on August 14, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
To preempt his anticipated question - are they screwed in, pressed in or what? If screwed in, is one side a LH thread?

They are push in so should just lever out. The thing you don't want to damage is the plastic crosshead as these are vulnerable, and not easy to replace if damaged.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 01:03:38 PM
Quote from: dannyboy on August 14, 2019, 12:40:14 PM
No "derogation" meant or intended - if anyone has taken my comments that way, I apologise. I was only trying to get my point across that some people want 'true to life' running, whilst others, like myself, just like to see trains, (in any form) run round the layout.  :beers:

It was more the post that preceded yours (with which you agreed), no need to apologise, ultimately it's all just different facets of the hobby we enjoy.

Back OT units that can barely haul themselves are an annoyance; Farish 350 and 220 I'm looking at you!
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: jpendle on August 14, 2019, 01:59:40 PM
I think haulage matters, but the only time I can act on that is when buying CL66 loco's. Farish are better than Dapol.

I also think that better haulage must be a win win for the modeller and the retailers and manufacturers.

If the Hatton's Garratt has the haulage of the prototype then they'll get to potentially sell 100 coal wagons with each one  :D

The Revs CL92 had better pull 16 Mk5's or there may be embarrassment  :D

As I have a large layout the more my loco's can pull the more wagons I buy.

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: chrism on August 14, 2019, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:59:19 PM
Quote from: chrism on August 14, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
To preempt his anticipated question - are they screwed in, pressed in or what? If screwed in, is one side a LH thread?

They are push in so should just lever out. The thing you don't want to damage is the plastic crosshead as these are vulnerable, and not easy to replace if damaged.


Thanks, Alan. I'll tell him - and warn him about the crossheads.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 02:06:06 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 12:10:36 PM
What control are you running, NeMo?

Gaugemaster twin-track DS (the one with the pretend "brake" feature). So nothing fancy or unusual. No feedback. No DCC.

I'm not sure I've ever seen the lights go, but just notice two nights ago that the lights on my Dapol D6300 didn't work. You can see the LEDs sort of flicker at full speed if you take the body off.

Alongside that one, there's a Class 27 and at least one 'Western'. Thus far, none of the Farish locos have lost their lights. We can take this off to PMs if you want, but I'd be happy enough to have them looked at some time!

Right now I'm working on getting an old Farish 50 working again. It was running slowly today when I tested it out, and after an hour of gentle running (half speed, Kato controller) after cleaning the wheels, it just 'stopped'. Removed motor and it still spins, so guessing something to do with the wiring or contacts.

Today is turning out to be a train-fixing sort of day!

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Newportnobby on August 14, 2019, 04:34:48 PM
Quote from: silly moo on August 14, 2019, 07:33:42 AM

I must admit that prototypical haulage (within reason) has never been a factor for me when choosing a loco, mainly because I have always had smallish layouts and I don't run completely prototypical trains.

I think that's the nub of it for me. I have an 8ft a 4ft flat layout with a scenic stretch of, say, 12ft. Any train too long just looks ridiculous as the loco runs into a tunnel while the end coach/wagon is just emerging from the previous tunnel mouth. The longest freight train for me would be about 30 x 4 wheeled and the longest passenger train maybe up to 10 coaches. The only loco I really have an issue with is (surprise, surprise) the Dapol 9Fs which, to be honest, I wish Farish had continued with. My 45xx tank is disappointing but still looks fine with a couple of coaches or a pick up goods. I won't be getting a Garratt as it's simply too big for the layout, especially with anything like a prototypical rake behind it. Time was I would have stuck with 'a train should not exceed a third of the scenic length' but that has long gone.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Bingley Hall on August 14, 2019, 05:35:10 PM
As a general rule it's not something I worry too much about - though I have a few Life-Like and Bachmann US outline steamers I've never given a real run, but have heard worrying things about as far as their haulage capacity is concerned. Luckily I picked them at at very good prices, but I wouldn't have wanted to pay top dollar for them based on reputation. If any one is wondering it's the LL 2-8-4 and 2-8-8-2 Mallet and Bachmann USRA Light 4-8-2. I believe the second run of the Mallets were better.

Interestingly I have been testing quite a bit of my fleet, much of which has been sitting in boxes for anything from 3-10 years. I had my Dapol 22 running around 9" curves with 6 milk tanks and a Stove R without any problems. When I swapped the milk tanks for 6 x Revolution B tankers the 22 started to struggle and stall.  I have an early Chinese Farish Pannier which I needed to test prior to a sale - ran away with the 6 x B tankers.   
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 02:06:06 PM
Gaugemaster twin-track DS (the one with the pretend "brake" feature). So nothing fancy or unusual. No feedback. No DCC.

At some point I'll need to try and get the outputs of Gaugemasters on a scope to see if they differ. I suspect there might be a possibility they do, but I agree that these should be clean signals that don't cause burn outs.

Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 02:06:06 PM
I'm not sure I've ever seen the lights go, but just notice two nights ago that the lights on my Dapol D6300 didn't work. You can see the LEDs sort of flicker at full speed if you take the body off.

Alongside that one, there's a Class 27 and at least one 'Western'. Thus far, none of the Farish locos have lost their lights. We can take this off to PMs if you want, but I'd be happy enough to have them looked at some time!

The BAT54Cs are in the red lighting circuit, but I've seen them affect reds alone, reds and whites at one end, or various combinations. It's not guaranteed that is the sole cause, but it's common. They are only rated to 200mA, ~0.8V, which should be enough for the LEDs, but I suspect they are therefore very prone to even the slightest spike cause by a derailment or short (e.g. a wheel back touching an opposite point blade). Feel free to drop me a PM on them.

Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 02:06:06 PM
Right now I'm working on getting an old Farish 50 working again. It was running slowly today when I tested it out, and after an hour of gentle running (half speed, Kato controller) after cleaning the wheels, it just 'stopped'. Removed motor and it still spins, so guessing something to do with the wiring or contacts.

Oh, when running slowly, don't persist for too long in running it - if something is stiff, jamming or the likes it can put a lot of strain on the motor. If a split chassis model, clean out the commutator - they commonly clog up and cause a partial short that gives slow, high current draw running. Clean out any gunk and old lubricant from the bogies too to reduce frictional drag - less is more for lubrication on these.

HTH,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 05:47:31 PM
Oh, when running slowly, don't persist for too long in running it - if something is stiff, jamming or the likes it can put a lot of strain on the motor. If a split chassis model, clean out the commutator - they commonly clog up and cause a partial short that gives slow, high current draw running. Clean out any gunk and old lubricant from the bogies too to reduce frictional drag - less is more for lubrication on these.

Yep, that's pretty much what I did. There was some fluff in there, and some oil, and the little brass contacts on the motor weren't touching the metal chassis properly. It's working much better now, and by the sounds of it, my 4-year-old has just upped the voltage so it's racing at a scale 200 mph! Might need to go rescue it.

Incidentally, according to my multimeter, the Kato controller is pushing out around 16 V DC, which is a lot more than I expected.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 07:11:31 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 07:09:08 PM
Incidentally, according to my multimeter, the Kato controller is pushing out around 16 V DC, which is a lot more than I expected.

While you've got the meter out, measure the current draw of the loco - if it's healthy it should be 100-120mA.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 07:41:57 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 14, 2019, 07:11:31 PM
While you've got the meter out, measure the current draw of the loco - if it's healthy it should be 100-120mA.

Around 0.10 A, rising momentarily to about 0.12 A when accelerating to top speed, before settling back down to 0.10 A again.

So seems happy enough. Not exactly silent, but I can't remember how noisy these old Farish models actually are.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Izzy on August 14, 2019, 07:43:30 PM
 Interesting that the Farish 66's seem to have better haulage than the Dapol ones. I have one of the latter which only drives off the outer axles of the bogies. I presume the Farish drive all axles as per most of their Co-Co diesels and I just wonder if that might explain the difference, 33% more traction/rail grip.

Must admit to being bemused by the difference between my Dapol 156 DMU and Farish 101/108's. On the flat they all run quite okay. But show the 156 any kind of incline and it will just sit there spinning it's wheels even though both bogies are driven and without the trailer, while the single bogie drive Farish will just romp up anything until the steepness gets silly to look at and drag quite a few coaches along with them besides their trailers.

Izzy
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 14, 2019, 10:19:26 PM
The Farish 66s are markedly heavier than Dapol. The extra driven axles won't hurt though for sure! It's a pretty linear relationship between weight and haulage for diesels. Obviously steam locos get more complex due to distribution of the weight in relation to the driven wheels.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: stevewalker on August 15, 2019, 12:00:33 AM
Quote from: NeMo on August 14, 2019, 07:09:08 PM
Incidentally, according to my multimeter, the Kato controller is pushing out around 16 V DC, which is a lot more than I expected.

Cheers, NeMo

Are you measuring the voltage with or without a loco running? The output without a load will be considerably higher than when loaded, so you really need to test with a loco running.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Rabbitaway on August 15, 2019, 12:44:52 AM
With regard to the Dapol 66 there are two versions of the lighter weight DCC ready chassis,  one with wide and deep flange wheels and the other later release with fine wheels. The latter has noticeable weaker haulage ability.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 15, 2019, 09:46:43 AM
That's interesting, I'll have to look more closely at that, I've found among my Dapol ones it's random (but I admit I've never looked at which chassis arrangement they've got. I'd only noticed that lights have changed). The best one I've got is 66111 in weathered EWS, which I think is a fairly old release, but I've also got one of the "Patriot" Powerhaul ones which is also good. Others, including an early Freightliner one are noticeably worse.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 15, 2019, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: njee20 on August 15, 2019, 09:46:43 AM
The best one I've got is 66111 in weathered EWS,

This release has a later style chassis. The early ones also did not have a DCC socket.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 15, 2019, 09:50:37 AM
Quote from: Dr Al on August 15, 2019, 09:48:57 AM
Quote from: njee20 on August 15, 2019, 09:46:43 AM
The best one I've got is 66111 in weathered EWS,

This release has a later style chassis. The early ones also did not have a DCC socket.

I know that, and those were great runners (if a swine to convert to DCC), but Rabbitaway said there are two types of DCC-ready chassis, the earlier ones being better.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Dr Al on August 15, 2019, 09:56:11 AM
Quote from: njee20 on August 15, 2019, 09:50:37 AM
I know that, and those were great runners (if a swine to convert to DCC)

They probably have good haulage, though they suffer a number of other problems (noisy as heck, and stiff stiff gearing, wobbly wheels) meaning I've seen a good number requiring significant attention.

I've never owned an all/mainly plastic chassied 66, but the similar 73 was pretty dire.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Capri_sam on August 15, 2019, 11:32:00 AM
Haulage is a funny one for me - I like long trains but I've got a very hilly layout (and it gets hillier with the seasons as I'm in the loft of a very old wood framed house) with a couple of 1-60s and a 1-50 drag.

As a result I only expect with any loco to be able to run trains of around four carriages for tank engines and six for tender locos (double that in 4-wheel wagons). But I rarely get what I want! Sometimes I'll accept less quite happily - my dapol prairie just gets one B-set instead of two and my M7s are resigned to two maunsells each, but sometimes it really annoys me - my new tooling Black 5, Merchant Navy and Castle will only manage 4 carriages apiece and it's infuriating! The biggest offender is obviously the 9f, which on my layout will manage 6 four wheel wagons. I'm in the process of bull frog snotting it and if that doesn't work it's off to Ebay.

On the other hand, my Schools will take 12 maunsells each without missing a beat, and my 28xx has managed 40 wagons and could have taken more, but I got nervous about throwing a tyre. For hauling big trains, I've got a few old Poole models and some Union Mills.
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: Les1952 on August 15, 2019, 11:19:08 PM
On my little OO shunting plank there are two sequences involving passenger trains - bearing in mind there isn't a run-round loop.

Loco hauled train.   1... runs in from fiddle yard.  2.  loco uncouples and runs to head shunt.  3.  Loco runs from headshunt to water crane in shed yard.  4.  Loco runs from lay-by siding and attaches to other end of passenger train then waits.   5.  Loco from shed road runs to headshunt.  6.  Loco from coal road runs forward and reverses into shed road.  7.  Loco from water crane runs forward then reverses into coal road.  8.  Passenger train departs for fiddle yard.  9.  Loco from headshunt runs through platform and reverses into lay-by siding.  Sequence can now re-start.

Diesel railcar    1.... runs in from fiddle yard.  2.  waits.  3.  departs for fiddle yard. Sequence can now re-start.

I wonder which of these sequences is more interesting for the exhibition punter watching the layout.......

Les
Title: Re: How important is loco haulage to you?
Post by: njee20 on August 20, 2019, 06:32:33 AM
Under instruction of my 2 year old when playing, I discovered that Dapol 67s will haul 20 silver bullets and 18 MJAs, quite formidable! Shame their 66s can't emulate that!