Apparently a NEM magnetic coupling, an A3, an A4 and a SR Light Pacific. I just shake my head at 2 and 3 - they would be wanting to do better than the B1 this time surely - and get them out before Farish who already have the tender drive sorted decides to add to the A1. Red rag and Bull spring to mind.
Why dont Dapol just shut up and produce stuff already mentioned e.g. GWR 2-8-0 and concentrate on making sure the stuff they do sell works properly.
Elmo
Apparently, according to Maurice at Osborns, the A3 and A4 by Christmas this year (although Bachmann could have it up their sleve for Warley too so that could be interesting) and the 2884 is also on its way. I agree with you though Elmo - there is a lot of Dapol stuff in the pre-order list at Hatton's.
While the magnetic coupling sounds intriguing, I am surprised by those choices. I know Dapol have the Gresley coaches out, but why this current obsession with the LNER..? It's likely to just bring them head to head with Farish, and considering the reliability issues with recent steam releases they may find that a short sighted decision. I'm sure SR modellers will be happy. Personally I would have liked to have seen something like a 2P or 4P.
R E Faust
From what I gather the only problem with the Hall is the look - haven't heard of one running poorly, just looking poorly. The Brit on the other hand...
Hopefully the WC/BB is a good one and has black wheels.
I would order the A4 if it was made by Farish but as Dapol are doing it I will wait and see what it's like first.
I might order a Bulleid Pacific but only because they are a favourite and the Farish ones are so dated.
When it comes to Dapol I have a very cautious approach to ordering and wait for the reviews and feedback from the first buyers.
Regards,
Veronica.
Dapol Dave has chimed in on "the Scottish Forum" :evil: to say it is merely demonstrating as many different tooling features as possible on the one EP and things will be correct on the production runs. Search Dapol Secret Announcements and you can find it. I would post the link but I would then have to go outside, turn around three times and spit and it is too late here to do that! :smiley-laughing:
On a personal note I would welcome a Bulleid - hopefully it will be better looking than the Farish offering which IMHO looks hideous from the waist down :(
That's lucky because 60045 is Lemberg not Ladas.
I notice they all have black wheels ;D
hmm new magnetic coupler from dapol easi-couple looks exactly the same as the bachmann eazi-mate mk2.
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/board/index.php/topic,12735.0.html
V
http://twitter.com/#!/osbornsmodels/media/slideshow?url=pic.twitter.com%2FceytJQUe
the winner in this battle will be whoever can get the rapido/elc version out first me thinks!!!
I find this competition between Dapol and Farish somewhat immature! I too am still eagerly awaiting some of the previously announce "magnificent Seven" models which have taken a long time to materialise, surely it would be be more appropriate to focus on getting out previously announced models before making more future announcements. I also think that rather than being the first company to announce an intention to produce a model there needs to be a greater focus on quality control, after all most of us actually run our models as opposed to displaying them, therefore the running quality is as important as the aesthetics.
I am not anti Dapol or Farish for that matter. Dapol have provided the impetus for improving the visual quality of N-gauge models but if you read the various forums, many Dapol models have substandard running characteristics. I also dislike the childish way that both manufacturers are attempting to score points off one another. There is room in the market for two companies who have the vision and determination to bring accurate, well produced N-gauge models!
I really wish more time was spent on making sure the new steam locos run well. I have returned my Farish Tornado twice and in the end opted for a refund because it seems to have a fault which only appears after a lot of running. One of them had eccentric driving wheels and a wobbly tender axle into the bargain. The Farish 4 6 0s are generally good, but I am not impressed with their first new pacific.
I hope Dapol sort out their mechanisms on these new locos so they are quieter and do not overheat and become erratic runners.
To help here is the press release and answers on RMWeb
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45793-dapol-secret-annoucements/page__fromsearch__1
Quote from: Elvinley on October 08, 2011, 05:13:16 PM
I really wish more time was spent on making sure the new steam locos run well. I have returned my Farish Tornado twice and in the end opted for a refund because it seems to have a fault which only appears after a lot of running. One of them had eccentric driving wheels and a wobbly tender axle into the bargain. The Farish 4 6 0s are generally good, but I am not impressed with their first new pacific.
I hope Dapol sort out their mechanisms on these new locos so they are quieter and do not overheat and become erratic runners.
According to the press release the a4 and a3 will have a 30:1 gear ratio, not the usual 40:1 - hopefully that will quieten them down a bit...
Quote from: Elvinley on October 08, 2011, 05:13:16 PM
I really wish more time was spent on making sure the new steam locos run well. I have returned my Farish Tornado twice and in the end opted for a refund because it seems to have a fault which only appears after a lot of running. One of them had eccentric driving wheels and a wobbly tender axle into the bargain. The Farish 4 6 0s are generally good, but I am not impressed with their first new pacific.
I am sure Farish have spent plenty of time designing developing and testing.
It is disappointing to learn of your experiences with Tornado, and you are naturally entitled to your opinion, but the vast majority seem very happy indeed with their models (as I am).
My Early Crest BR A1 has run for a number of hours now, including a gruelling exhibition for it today. It has not missed a beat, no eccentric wheels, no screeching, it is smooth, quiet powerful and beutifully responsive to the controller. I cannot praise the model highly enough. In my opinon it is very well engineered and is designed to last a very long time.
Regards
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on October 08, 2011, 09:12:02 PMIn my opinon it is very well engineered and is designed to last a very long time.
Unfortunatelly how they are desinged and how they are made are two entirely different things and neither ensures decent QC. Consequently it will still be possible to get a dodgy Friday afternoon jobbie as Elvinley appears to have done. And that goes for all manufacturers.
H.
Quote from: H on October 08, 2011, 09:39:07 PM
Quote from: Roy L S on October 08, 2011, 09:12:02 PMIn my opinon it is very well engineered and is designed to last a very long time.
Unfortunatelly how they are desinged and how they are made are two entirely different things and neither ensures decent QC. Consequently it will still be possible to get a dodgy Friday afternoon jobbie as Elvinley appears to have done. And that goes for all manufacturers.
H.
Absolutely, I agree, better QC would certainly weed out some "duds" that currently get through and without it the best design and manufacture cannot be totally foolproof but the view is no doubt taken that it is cheaper to replace a percentage of "duds" when they get to the end user than spend lots of money at the front end inspecting them.
The point I was making is that plenty of time is taken in the design to get things right and that for the majority (Though not Sadly Elvinley) this has resulted in a very good product notwithstanding my coment above..
Regards
Roy
You will always get "friday jobs" even amongst the best products.
Quote from: Roy L S on October 08, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
I am sure Farish have spent plenty of time designing developing and testing.
It is disappointing to learn of your experiences with Tornado, and you are naturally entitled to your opinion, but the vast majority seem very happy indeed with their models (as I am).
My Early Crest BR A1 has run for a number of hours now, including a gruelling exhibition for it today. It has not missed a beat, no eccentric wheels, no screeching, it is smooth, quiet powerful and beutifully responsive to the controller. I cannot praise the model highly enough. In my opinon it is very well engineered and is designed to last a very long time.
Regards
Roy
You clearly never visit RMweb... The vast majority are NOT happy with there Tornado models, as the vast majority have had to send them back for refund or replacement. The BR livery A1s are fine, but most people who have owned a Tornado have had serious problems with them... Some members of RMweb are on their second or third model, all of which are suffering the same issues.
To those of you whining about Dapol releasing other models, check the press release that was linked to earlier in this thread, it has clear information about the 28xx, Class 56, Pendolino, Class 92, and the Class 142. Also, it seems a few here are failing to remember that in the end, Dapol is going to produce models that bring in the most revenue, not what modellers really desire. That's why Farish churns out the same old toolings every year, it makes them money. If Dapol don't deem a project financially worthwhile, they are well within their rights to suspend or cancel it, afterall, they are a private company, and money is what they are after.
To those of you whining about the models shown in the photos. They were first EPs, put together specifically for the Members day this weekend, they are not truly representative of the final models, and Dave from Dapol has already explained that some things are going to be changed (for example the Banjo Dome will be a flush fit with the boiler on release models.)
To those of you whining about competition... I ask you: what competition? Farish currently produce old, basic, models (the Bulleid hasn't been update for decades!) and have not announced any plans to update them. Dapol have announced plans to build new versions, and have already provided images of samples. Where is the competition? Farish produce three rubbish old products, and Dapol are about to release three new products that will be much higher quality. There is absolutely no competition there.
Personally, I think it's brilliant that Dapol have announced these models... Not only does it mean that we get a better model to purchase, but it means that Farish will have to look very closely at what they are doing, and release new stuff, or completely re-tool old stuff.
Ross
With respect I do visit RM Web - I post there fairly often. Maybe five or ten people have reported problems specifically with "Tornado", some have made several postings, and yes, some like Elvinley of this Parish have been very unlucky with more than one. But to base an assumption that because the "vast majority" posting there have had problems/sent them back there is a big problem with the loco is flawed. A number (Ben Ando and EWS Jo for two) have reported on there no problems with their model at all.
How many were air-freighted in and of those how many are perfectly happy? We don't know.
Clearly there does appears to be some issue with the "Tornado" models specifically that is not there on the BR versions which may be down to assembly or a batch of components (who knows).
I am not saying it is acceptable to have what seems to be a disproprtionately bigger failure rate on one specific model, but I do think there is a danger of making the issue out to be bigger than it is due to the experiences of an unrepresentative sample.
Regards
Roy
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
Having read through this thread I hope Father Lawrence doesn't read it.
If he does a lot of repenting for forgiveness might be on the cards... :angel:
I for one am glad that Dapol and Farish both bring out new products. short comings and all, during a recession.
It shows that they see a future in our branch of the hobby which is a very small market if you think about it.
The problems each product has will hopefully get ironed out eventually as its in the companies interests to do so.
:Dapol:, :GraFar: keep on bring out :NGAUGE: stuff as we want more! :NGaugersRule:
Hi Ross - I think it's a shame your first post on the forum is so negative about what members are saying/debating. Three times you accuse people of whining when all they are doing is exactly what you are doing - expressing an opinion. Any debate about quality control will contain those who have had no issues and those who have suffered problems. Personally I have had issues with Dapol, Farish and Peco and post my experiences to help others decide. That is not to say I am whining (a pointless exercise if ever there was one). As N gaugers we all like to see new releases as it shows the manufacturers have and see a future. The debates as to what and when will always be with us (I am constantly frustrated by Farish failing to hit their due dates).
Please take the forum for what it is - somewhere to discuss things with like minded people in a polite and friendly atmosphere. :computersmile:
Surely what modellers really desire is what will bring in the most money. Competition, that's where one company produces a better product than another company forcing the company with the inferior product to improve or lose sales.
I've visited RMweb, frankly I'd rather live on the Isle of Sheppey. ;)
Quote from: poliss on October 09, 2011, 02:00:21 PM
I've visited RMweb, frankly I'd rather live on the Isle of Sheppey. ;)
:smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing: :smiley-laughing:
If you know/come from Kent, you'll know why thats funny! ;D
My dad has been trying to sell his chalet on the island for 3 years. What a waste of money that was! :smiley-laughing:
Quote from: poliss on October 09, 2011, 02:00:21 PM
I've visited RMweb, frankly I'd rather live on the Isle of Sheppey. ;)
HMP Elmley......
HMP Standford Hill.......
Or HMP Swaleside....... :o ;D
With regard to people moaning and whining about products, it is a sad fact that people only normally comment when something has gone wrong. And yes I have done so.
I posted on MRF high praise for Peco regarding their collett loco. It had numerous views but NIL replies.
Someone (I think on this forum) also prised Peco about their customer service but had only a couple of replies.
However, complain abouts a faulty this and that and you cant keep people away!!
Elmo
It's a sad fact of life that people like complaining but don't often give praise. This applies to all walks of life. Occasionally in the world of N gauge someone does something right (read the reviews of the Farish Class 24), but all manufacturers drop clangers now and then and our membership post their experiences accordingly, but we all have a mind and have to decide for ourselves. I have no issue with complaints, but terming it "whining" is wrong as the word itself defines a particular sound has been heard. "Whingeing" is far more correct (to be pedantic) but still somewhat derogatory.
Sorry - I'll get off my soapbox now :-X
If the amount of prison on sheppey isn't bad enough how about the 1400 tons of 70 year old unstable explosives on the wreck of the
Uss Richard Montgomery just off shore. One day it might go boom then that's then of that isle. Or perhaps a nice once in century storm surge.
On the subject of moaning: Sometimes people are just looking to get it off their chests on forums and are looking to others to make sure they are not alone in their misfortune. I know this is true as I have done it myself a few times. I think when something goes wrong or is inferior we feel cheated out of our hard earned cash and want to complain to someone. Sometimes the companies have little to say when things go wrong so we turn to like minded people. I had a good experience with Dapol recently when something went wrong and I mentioned it on their Facebook. After this I made sure people heard the good news as well as the bad.
Quote from: newportnobby on October 09, 2011, 01:35:35 PM
I think it's a shame your first post on the forum is so negative
So do I.
I've been a lurker on this forum for ages, and have generally been very impressed with the quality of the content here. To then see the comments in here was rather dissapointing.
And yes, I do accuse people of whining, because in some cases, that's what they were doing... "Why don't Dapol release models they are already working on" is not an opinion, it's someone whining, especially when Dapol have also released a press release clearly saying what is going on with the other models. Saying "That A3 doesn't look very good it's got the wrong bits on it and the name/number is wrong" when a Dapol representative has already stated that it was a quick sample just to give punters a rough idea is not expressing an opinion, it's whining. Saying "Why are Dapol releasing models that Farish already make" is not expressing an opinion, it's simply whining.
I find it very odd that on a forum dedicated to N Gauge, the response to a frankly fantastic piece of news is almost completely negative. 11 of the 15 posts on the first page (including the original post) were completely negative, whining about QC, Competition, Repetition, Not releasing announced models etc etc...
I'd have thought that people on here would be quite pleased that at least one manufacturer is attempting to improve the quality of models that desperately need it.
I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market.
QuoteI'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market
Don't worry you have at least one other person here that agrees with you.
Dan
Make it two, I think the first posts where ill informed rants.
Just so I don't get labeled.... I'm looking forward to the class 121 'bubble cars' being released, i'm building a 1970's shelf layout and a blue 121 would be great - i've owned 153's and 156's and they all ran well, i'm expecting the 121 to be the same. Sometimes they do get it right, and we should here more about what's good so we can leave the bad on the shelves, good example - Dapol Class 26, I've heard very little about this loco, i had to dig around to find reviews and eventually found out it's a winner ! Type in Dapol B1 and see what happens...
Quote from: RWJP on October 09, 2011, 06:23:15 PM
I'd have thought that people on here would be quite pleased that at least one manufacturer is attempting to improve the quality of models that desperately need it.
I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market.
Ross - you certainly are not alone in your viewpoint. I, for one, agree with you. Sorry but I just don't like the term "whining" (personal feeling maybe?). However, like some others, I do question why 'The Big 2' want to duplicate models. Farish have a Western which, although not brilliant, looks OK so why would Dapol see the need for one? As I stated before, I would love a Bulleid as the Farish one is grim but at least it can be re-wheeled to look better.
As a lurker for ages you will no doubt have seen a lot (too much IMHO) bad feeling towards Dapol especially regarding their running qualities on steamers.
I suppose in a perfect world I'd like the looks/detail of Dapol and the better running of Farish but, hey, that's never going to happen. Now if Farish improved the detail and Dapol improved the running I would really consider that progress :thumbsup:
People have reservations for a reason about these announcements. If these will be high quality locos it is indeed an exciting prospect. The price tag of n gauge pacifics seems to be around the 120 pounds mark and upwards. I think in this difficult financial time it is not unreasonable to expect something costing this much to be really good.
I for one am very pleased with these announcements. As said the farish ones are waaay too outdated so it'll be nice to see an A3,A4 and Bullied to 'modern' standards. The couplings are a big big turn up and i applaud dapol for them :Dapol: at last i can get Sheaf hands free :D
Now onto the 'whining' debate. Yes i would like to see them bring out the models they already have in the pipeline but i also think it's brilliant they surprise us like this. This new way models are announced (ie when they are gonna be ready in the near future) is much better in my view, if they didn't do it like that these would have been announced ages ago and even more people would be moaning!
Final thing, yes i admit Dapol products haven't been the best as of late (running/livery errors) but i propose the simple solution....
...If you don't like it don't buy it!! Or at least get it tested in the shop when you buy it. Surely a poor selling rate will encourage companies to make these improvements?!?!
Once again, well done Dapol on a brilliant year of forthcoming models
Ollie
Quote from: RWJP on October 09, 2011, 06:23:15 PM
I'll stick by my lone viewpoint that this announcement is absolutely fantastic, and well needed in the N Gauge market.
As the starter of the thread, I don't think you viewpoint is a lone one, but equally I feel the various criticism launched at Dapol about potential duplication, failing to deliever what has been promised to date and what not is ok. If this isn't your cup of team, then you have the option of going back to lurking or return to RM Web (where most of us lurk I suspect and do read the comments - including yours) where such criticism seems to be frowned on.
I hope they do well, but after reading the various comments on this, RM Web and the assorted e-mail groups I belong to, I haven't purchased a Britannia (although wanting 70046 because my great-grandfather was one) nor have I purchased a Hall (despite desperately needing to update my Farish example) because Dapol has, in both my view and from what I have read (allowing for the usual 10 to 1 noise of those aggreived to those not) got these models wrong, and deserve criticisim, not money. I purchased the Farish B1 (two of them so far) for much the same reasons - and I could have saved 20 quid each had I gone the Dapol route.
So Ross, it is a shame you have blazed into :NGaugeForum: is such a negative way, but perhaps you will find some part of the forum where you can make a positive contribution - show us some pictures of your modelling for example.
Quote from: 4x2ybecauseican on October 09, 2011, 07:48:06 PM
Just so I don't get labeled.... I'm looking forward to the class 121 'bubble cars' being released, i'm building a 1970's shelf layout and a blue 121 would be great - i've owned 153's and 156's and they all ran well, i'm expecting the 121 to be the same. Sometimes they do get it right, and we should here more about what's good so we can leave the bad on the shelves, good example - Dapol Class 26, I've heard very little about this loco, i had to dig around to find reviews and eventually found out it's a winner ! Type in Dapol B1 and see what happens...
Yep - which is why I am probably going to get a 26!
So Ross, it is a shame you have blazed into :NGaugeForum: is such a negative way, but perhaps you will find some part of the forum where you can make a positive contribution - show us some pictures of your modelling for example.
[/quote]
No need for personal attacks. I think you are wrong, my Hall is far better than the Farish out of date offering. Dapol are laying down the gauntlet to Farish to update or lose prestigious items from your catalogue. We can only hope that Farish will start updating like the Castle and King. They certainly are with rolling stock MK1's, Toad to name but 2.
I do not feel that we should be bashing products not yet released and as to previous announced items Dapol have updated that situation. By late next year we will hopefully be up to date except the ones on hold.
Can I wish both Dapol and Farish good luck as potentially very hard time may be ahead.
Personally I think its great that one of the RTR manufactures has acknowledged the need to produce new examples of three iconic lomotives with the A3, A4 and Bullied Light Pacific. All these models have been in production for 20year+ (the A3 and Bullied even longer). When Hornby and Bachmann announced new toolings to models from their existing ranges (and some swapping of product range) most of the OO gaugers welcomed the news with open arms. Yes I feel that duplication cannot be good for sales but a brand new, detailed tooling must be better than the old, very inaccurate (A4 being the exception, at least above the footplate). However both companies keep new products to themselves, as do businesses in nearly every industry (usually for good reason) so some crossed wires and duplicated products are to be expected.
Will Farish produce an A3 or A4? I would think it likely due to the development work that went into the Peppercorn A1 but an A2 would be a nice surprise too (although sadly not for me as I'm modeling the 1930's although I'm feeling tempted!). My only grip being that I was going to see if a Farish A1 could be a good starting point for a kit of the A3 and A4 but I've been saved the bother of that now!!! :smiley-laughing:
Regarding previously announced products, I feel that both manufacturers have learnt that it's one thing to announce a product but a completely different ball game to get that product to market. As with the GWR 2-8-0 Dapol have not had an easy ride trying to fit in all their gubins into a small tender so understandably the production slot has slipped in favour of models which successfully reached a higher level of design/development in less time. As Dapol have stated the above loco is now due for release sometime next year which indicates that they've got their problems with it sorted.
I do feel that quality control should be tighter but surely that is a problem for the factory as well as Dapol and Farish... I must say I've been very lucky with my locomotives with only one dud (out of c.40 locos of Farish, Dapol and continental manufacture). The dud being a Dapol B1 chassis unit which was bought on the understanding that it was a non runner - this didn't matter to me as I bought it to strip for usable parts for another project. To be honest though hearing 10-30 complaints about locomotives on the forums isn't too bad (although I understand the urgument that they should all work perfectly - my new car didn't!) when you consider that a batch would normally run at 3000+ units.
Thank you to both Farish and Dapol for continuing to (at least try) raise the bar and increase the range of next generation models. :thumbsup:
Quote from: NtasticShop on October 09, 2011, 10:15:51 PM
No need for personal attacks. I think you are wrong, my Hall is far better than the Farish out of date offering. Dapol are laying down the gauntlet to Farish to update or lose prestigious items from your catalogue. We can only hope that Farish will start updating like the Castle and King. They certainly are with rolling stock MK1's, Toad to name but 2.
I do not feel that we should be bashing products not yet released and as to previous announced items Dapol have updated that situation. By late next year we will hopefully be up to date except the ones on hold.
Can I wish both Dapol and Farish good luck as potentially very hard time may be ahead.
Not sure where the personal attack was - Ross did come in with an overly negative post for his first up post IMO (as was Ross's own opinion if you read back, along with Newportnobby) and I would welcome seeing his modelling - which surely can be considered encouragement and a positive?
I also don't dispute the Dapol Hall is better than the Farish one, but I will wait for the inevitable discount (look at the B1, the 9F in the past and others) before I buy one because I don't like having to fix things these days which shouldn't need fixing - like the wheel colour (my Hall is from when I was a hot headed youth of 19 who didn't know much about British railways other than they were faster than the US stuff I had a majority of when I decided to switch!).
I also remember the carping and critizing Dave Jones used to put on the Modern N-Gauge e-group when he founded it about Farish letting things jump in in front of other models.
Hi
Brilliant news from Dapol. From the photos I have seen they really are a step up from the older Farish locos. No doubt there. Yes I am new but I do agree with most of what Ross said. Their really is too much complaining these days before a model has even hit the shops. I watched Dapol cop no amount of flak on one of the HST liveries, everyone saying it was wrong. The livery was actually correct but not for one second did they assume that Dapol had being told by the actual company who owns the livery "this is how we want it painted".
So why the secret? firstly thats just good marketing keeping one step ahead of the competitors. They want it to help improve their models. Also worth considering I know some of the manufacturers are getting tired of the constant complaining. In realistic terms if you take all the UK model train forums what percentage of the total, actually know about the forums and post. You would be lucky if it was 3% and yet a fair amount of the complaining comes for this 3%?
Manufactures have no problems with constructive criticism. Posting something like "it just doesnt look right" or "something is not quite right" then going on a rant, and leaving the manufacturer looking bad. I have seen it time and time again.
If your going to be critical it worth having all the facts and this topic is a classic example of people not have the facts and shooting from the hip.
Dapol are certainly on a winner here. The A4 will go out the door like hot cakes. Love the couplings I can just imagine the new potential here for DC and DCC. No more hand of God........ shunting layouts are going to be so much more fun and with the new signals wow, between Farish and Dapol we have never had it so good in n gauge. Just a guess now with the announcements over the last 2 months I think you will find a few OO fans taking a real hard fresh look at n gauge.
Well done Dapol for listening to your customer base and setting a new benchmark with these outstanding models.
Cheers
Martin
QuoteI find this competition between Dapol and Farish somewhat immature! I too am still eagerly awaiting some of the previously announce "magnificent Seven" models which have taken a long time to materialise, surely it would be be more appropriate to focus on getting out previously announced models before making more future announcements. I also think that rather than being the first company to announce an intention to produce a model there needs to be a greater focus on quality control, after all most of us actually run our models as opposed to displaying them, therefore the running quality is as important as the aesthetics.
I am not anti Dapol or Farish for that matter. Dapol have provided the impetus for improving the visual quality of N-gauge models but if you read the various forums, many Dapol models have substandard running characteristics. I also dislike the childish way that both manufacturers are attempting to score points off one another. There is room in the market for two companies who have the vision and determination to bring accurate, well produced N-gauge models!
Hi could you expand on the 'childish way that both manufactures are attempting to score points off one another' I am genuinely interested to read some examples.
Maybe it's because we see model trains as a hobby but some people need to have a reality check and realise that both Farish and Dapol are businesses with a primary aim to make money...what other area of business do competitors skip along holding hands deciding between them what products they should produce? The locos announced are the most iconic in the history of British Railways...just because Farish have produced a 'big' tender does that mean that they have a divine right to produce what would arguably be the biggest selling loco in N Gauge. We have no idea what Farish have planned, yet it is almost assumed that these locos are rightfully there's and Dapol are dirty rotten scoundels for having the temerity to announce them.
It is a real shame that this thread has become what it is and I think the frustration shown by RWJP and a number of others is that from the second post into this thread it deteriorated straight away into the tired old Dapol bashing when the announcements were so positive.
Dan
Quote from: RWJP on October 09, 2011, 10:29:58 AM
To those of you whining about Dapol releasing other models, check the press release that was linked to earlier in this thread, it has clear information about the 28xx, Class 56, Pendolino, Class 92, and the Class 142.
Hi Ross
I think the problem is that we have had "clear" information on some of these releases before, which has later turned out to be not so clear...
Quote from: RWJP on October 09, 2011, 10:29:58 AM
To those of you whining about the models shown in the photos. They were first EPs, put together specifically for the Members day this weekend, they are not truly representative of the final models, and Dave from Dapol has already explained that some things are going to be changed (for example the Banjo Dome will be a flush fit with the boiler on release models.)
It is a difficult one this - I can understand Dapol wanting to show off what they are working on, but unless it is very clearly stated that there are known errors then it is all too easy to see why we jump to conclusions...
Not everyone will see Dave's posts on RMWeb - it is surprising that Dapol's website has not been updated, that way they can make these sorts of clear, unambiguous statements.
Quote from: RWJP on October 09, 2011, 10:29:58 AM
To those of you whining about competition... I ask you: what competition? Farish currently produce old, basic, models (the Bulleid hasn't been update for decades!) and have not announced any plans to update them. Dapol have announced plans to build new versions, and have already provided images of samples. Where is the competition? Farish produce three rubbish old products, and Dapol are about to release three new products that will be much higher quality. There is absolutely no competition there.
Surely you are not whining about Farish's "rubbish" products! Farish have taken a stance of not announcing new products until they are almost at market, but I don't think it takes a vast stretch of the imagination that Tornado would lead to Farish re-vamping the A3s and A4s (I think this is what people are referring to by potential competition).
Of course you are right about Dapol going for what will get them a good return, though the decision should not be as simple as looking at one model (only by having a wide range of models will the N gauge market draw in new customers either from other scales or new modellers).
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: Truffles on October 10, 2011, 02:33:45 PM
Hi could you expand on the 'childish way that both manufactures are attempting to score points off one another' I am genuinely interested to read some examples.
Hi Dan
You do not have to search too far back in time (say in the Yahoo groups) to see what is being referred to - some of the comments and marketing (particularly from Dapol) were quite bitchy at times. Duplication on things like the 9F, Voyager etc etc (and host of other announcements that both companies made, some of which were later cancelled).
Neither side were/are blameless and it is fair to say that relations seem to have improved.
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on October 10, 2011, 02:40:23 PMFarish have taken a stance of not announcing new products until they are almost at market,
They may have stated that but they still seem to announce, show EPs (at places like the NGS AGM and TINGS) and then take their time getting products to market. For example we're still waiting for the some of the class 101s (announced 10 years ago), the Farish buses (announced at least two years ago) and others plus many of the new products in the brochure published at the start of this year won't be with us until next year at the earliest. But not that Dapol are any better these days. Although to some extent it's understandable.
Quote from: red_death on October 10, 2011, 02:40:23 PMI don't think it takes a vast stretch of the imagination that Tornado would lead to Farish re-vamping the A3s and A4s (I think this is what people are referring to by potential competition).
Of course the big issue here is when will they re-vamp those models. They have such a large number of old poor quality models in the Farish range that it'll take a good many years to get around to upgrading them (even if they actually bother to do them all). Presumably the class 20 will be next (it's been announced but nothing seen of it yet) but what after that? - there's no guarantee it will be an A3/4.
From a negative viewpoint, and I agree with those who say that this thread has been very negative and knocking in receiving Dapols announcments from the outset, I'm disappointed that the class 92 has been put on the back burner. But the news of new working couplers from Dapol is very welcome. And I'm looking forward to the class 411 4CEP from Farish whenever that arrives.
So to all the moaners and detractors, may your god go with you and your chosen model train arrive on time and in working order.
H.
One thing that has not been metioned yet, and it concerns me is that farish continually re-reease their products but Dapol make a couple of batches then stop. We really need rolling releases such as the farish approach to keep people in the hobby. By way of example, as far back as 1982 our family moved house so had a last visit to our local model shop. Three of us each purchased a farish loco. I had a relatively new then class 37. Still produced and a now with new tooling. My old man and brother purchased a GWR pannier and prairie. Both still being released (but in much need of upgrading). Anyone starting out in N gauge since 1982 could and still can buy these locos.
When dapol brought out the 14xx and 45xx I rubbed my hands and spent some money but someone starting out now cannot do so so could give N gauge a miss and set up an oo layout where these locos are plentiful.
Will dapol continue production of the hall for example? If not it is back to farish, but will they continue production of something that is so lacking by todays standards or would they be likely to do a costly modern rebuild if Dapol could if they wished do a re-run of their model?
With Dapols current short production run policy I can foresee gaps being left in the market where dapol have done a loco then moved onto something else but farish and potentially other manufacturers not being willing to spend money doing something that has already been done e.g. 9F.
Elmo
Quote from: elmo on October 10, 2011, 03:50:44 PM
One thing that has not been metioned yet, and it concerns me is that farish continually re-reease their products but Dapol make a couple of batches then stop. We really need rolling releases such as the farish approach to keep people in the hobby.
A couple of points there;
Firstly Farish have already junked some of their older inherited models and will not be re-releasing them. In fact several more were missing from the last Farish catalogue.
Secondly, Dapol have recently been asking which models they previously produced as short runs should they re-produce and re-launch - so I guess they will get around to gradually re-issuing them from their back catalogue.
Thirdly, I doubt that the market is growing as quickly as the number of new product releases we're almost being bombarded with. That means older ones need to drop off from production otherwise there will be an over-supply and huge stocks of unsold products. And that wont encourage manufcaturers to develop new ones.
Finally, the old models have been superceded in quality and fidelity terms. Many old ones are pretty poor and don't really stand comparison with modern production (lights, DCC, finer wheels, NEM coupling pockets, etc). I doubt many of them would sell in todays market. I'm sure there's plenty of stock and choice to attract newcomers and keep people in the hobby. But I certainly wouldn't be attracted by a diet of old and comparitively inaccurate and poor quality models.
H.
elmo, in a number of cases, Dapol have done rolling releases... 66s were produced over a fair number of batches, including some fairly drastic improvements to things like bogie-sideframes, and DCC socket fitting. 67s are the same, so were the 9Fs and HSTs.
Dapol have always marketed their models as fairly limited editions due to the smaller manufacturing capability they have.
Also, for models like the 14xx and Class 73, they've been so out-stripped by the quality of more recent releases, so they may not sell as well, if at all. I remember picking up my 14xx very soon after release, and thinking how stunning it was. Now we have models like the Terrier, which are even better.
To Truffles, spot on! The fact that this thread deteriorated into the usual Dapol-Bashing so quickly is what got me so riled in the first place. For whatever reason, people seem to have latched on to the idea that bashing Dapol is the cool thing to do, and will make them more respected amongst their peers, or whatever.
Why do we not see more people bashing Farish about their 9F, the 101s, 222s, LMS 2MT Tender locos (I preordered one something like 3 years ago!), new micro-trains style couplings etc etc. It seems that people will forgive Farish all their mistakes and issues without a moments thought, yet apparently Dapol deserve absolutely all the criticism for doing exactly the same thing...
On the comments regarding the Magnificent 7 models, that when they were originally announced Dapol stated that they would bring them to market when they decided that there was a place for them, taking various things into account.
Also, people seem to have forgotten which models were actually on the magnificent seven list. The Magnificent 7 were: Pendolino, HST, Class 153, B1, Class 26, 28xx and the Class 56. Of those, the HST, Class 153, Class 26 and B1 have all been released. The Pendolino was officially put on hold a fair while ago, so out of the original 7, only the 28xx and 56 are missing. The Class 92 and Class 142 were not announced until at least a year later (Class 142 was announced 2010 IIRC), and of course, the 92 has also been put on hold. Beyond that, we have also had the Britannia, Class 86, Class 58, Terrier, Class 67, DVT, Class 156, Class 121, Hall all released as well. So OK, we're missing 4 models that were announced. But we've been given 10 other models instead! And that's excluding releases like the Silver Bullets and Mk3s.
At least with Dapol, if one item doesn't appear, something else will.
That's why I think the moaning about Dapol releases jumping each other is utterly pointless and a waste of air. What is announced will come out eventually, and if it doesn't, it means Dapol probably have something else up their sleeves anyway.
Ross
Ross
I am not sure why a thread about Dapol would contain criticism of Farish! Needless to say on here (and plenty of other forums) there has been strong criticism of Farish as well at different points.
No one is pretending that at times Farish have not had problems. FWIW I don't think that Dapol bashing is any more prevalent than Farish bashing.
Comparing what has come out from Dapol with the Magnificent 7 is more than a little disingenuous - I don't think Dapol ever claimed that the Mag 7 were the only things that would be worked on!
Cheers, Mike
Regardless of the 14xx etc not being as detailed as newer locos such as the terrier, if you want a GWR layout you might like a 14xx, you will very probably need a pannier but you are not likely to need a terrier, so a new GWR modeller will wish to see GWR models. The pannier, although outdated is still produced and still sells. Dapol have 'asked the audience' and re-runs could happen. If Farish did not make a profit from rereleasing old items they would not do it. The fact that the pannier & prairie still sell after all this time shows that a market still exists, and this will no doubt will include numerous new N gauge modellers.
With the costs of finely detailed models continuing to rise there needs to be a cheap alternative to bring new people, generally kids into N gauge. Hornby created the 'Railroad range' with their old and acquired models and it is aimed at getting the youngster into the hobby. I dread to think how much I have spent on railways. It runs into thousands of pounds and it all started with a bright red clockwork loco that came with a bright yellow truck and a bright blue truck.
I was in a model shop in Plymouth a couple of Decembers ago and watched as some horrified grandparents looked at the cost of model locomotives and left the shop without buying little Johnny that train set. The hobby needs kids to keep it going, and N gauge needs a 'railroad range'.
I donated an N gauge test layout to a mate in work for his 11 year old grandson. He is still at the age of wanting to race trains in circles. Granddad looked at a sales area on a web site and purchased a dapol class 73 and 45xx. Good models but lots of breakable parts. Both are well used but the 73 is now minus a couple of buffers and the 45xx has lost its coal. With granddad moaning about the breaks and the cost of locos I gave him an old farish 08. This inaccurate old mechanism loco is now the pride of the fleet and the lad is still at the stage of being happy running a shunter around in circles at 100mph but things will progress as now granddad and grandson are going to build a proper layout.
One for you H, we went to the Salisbury model railway exhibition last year where Hedges Hill Cutting was making an appearance. This was grandsons favourite layout and he was allowed around the back to have a go! He still wanted the trains to faster though!!!
Elmo
Magnificent 7 was a list put together at short notice to announced new items at the open day because BRA sent the new catalogue out early. It was understood at the time that it would be a few years before we saw them.
Sorry lads but this one has run long enough, the topic is now locked