*puts tin hat on*
I'd like to thank Dapol for helping my choice to go continental that much easier. If it wasn't for my experiences in their awful quality control in OO, which by all accounts continues to purvey in both OO and N, I may never have ruled the UK N market as too much of a Bachmann monopoly and have never seen the light of Minitrix, Fleischmann, PIKO, Arnold, Brawa, the list goes on.
*keeps hat on, runs away*
Quote from: Nik96 on March 22, 2017, 07:59:34 PM
I've only had a handful of Dapol products but never had a single problem with any of them I couldn't fix in 30 seconds.
Long may Dapol prosper and keep delivering quality I've come to know.
You shouldn't have to fix ANY problem on a brand new loco!!
I've had problems with around 20percent of my 70 odd locos whether they be Dapol or Farish.
My view is that neither Dapol or Farish deserve a 'tribute' thread. If we want British outline N gauge then we are a captive audience and have to suffer a quality/fault rate that we would not dream of accepting for any other consumer product in the universe....
:thumbsdown:
Quote from: Sprintex on March 22, 2017, 08:24:45 PM
Quote from: austinbob on March 22, 2017, 08:13:37 PM
My view is that neither Dapol or Farish deserve a 'tribute' thread.
Why post a reply then rather than just ignore the thread if it's not to your liking?
Paul
Don't have a problem with the thread Paul there are many valid positive posts. Just have difficulty with the apparent acceptance of poor quality, whatever the excuses.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on March 22, 2017, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 22, 2017, 07:59:34 PM
I've only had a handful of Dapol products but never had a single problem with any of them I couldn't fix in 30 seconds.
Long may Dapol prosper and keep delivering quality I've come to know.
You shouldn't have to fix ANY problem on a brand new loco!!
I've had problems with around 20percent of my 70 odd locos whether they be Dapol or Farish.
My view is that neither Dapol or Farish deserve a 'tribute' thread. If we want British outline N gauge then we are a captive audience and have to suffer a quality/fault rate that we would not dream of accepting for any other consumer product in the universe....
:thumbsdown:
Its the nature of anything manufactured... They wont be perfect and when you deal with small volumes, these issues are just amplified. There isn't the ability to tack 10% extra volume to an order because you know you'll have faults. To expect everything to work faultless first time out of the box is quite frankly ridiculous. This is the purpose of warranties because this isn't an ideal world...
This is the issue of a niche market. That said if you do want to take up a fault free hobby there's always stamp colllecting ;D
Buying toy trains is like buying a lightbulb, fridge, pizza, should work straight from the box.
Mind you the laptop I'm using for this post is the worst I've ever had (Acer). That taught
me to beware of Argos bargains. :(
Have said it before and will say it again, the unhappy few are more likely to post about a problem than the happy many who don't have an issue with a purchase.
I work in Aviation and even these high tech systems have rouge units and poorly performing systems, but they are few of many.
I have had problems that I have solved myself, it is part of being a modeller that you have the ability to modify and rectify minor issues, from what I have seen both major manufacturers seem pretty good on replacing models that are not performing.
So yes you can have a moan, that is what freedom of speech is about, just be aware there are many people out there the silent majority who haven't a need to moan.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 22, 2017, 11:15:34 PM
Quote from: austinbob on March 22, 2017, 08:13:37 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 22, 2017, 07:59:34 PM
I've only had a handful of Dapol products but never had a single problem with any of them I couldn't fix in 30 seconds.
Long may Dapol prosper and keep delivering quality I've come to know.
You shouldn't have to fix ANY problem on a brand new loco!!
I've had problems with around 20percent of my 70 odd locos whether they be Dapol or Farish.
My view is that neither Dapol or Farish deserve a 'tribute' thread. If we want British outline N gauge then we are a captive audience and have to suffer a quality/fault rate that we would not dream of accepting for any other consumer product in the universe....
:thumbsdown:
Its the nature of anything manufactured... They wont be perfect and when you deal with small volumes, these issues are just amplified. There isn't the ability to tack 10% extra volume to an order because you know you'll have faults. To expect everything to work faultless first time out of the box is quite frankly ridiculous. This is the purpose of warranties because this isn't an ideal world...
This is the issue of a niche market. That said if you do want to take up a fault free hobby there's always stamp colllecting ;D
Stamp collecting is a good hobby too and I collect British stamps. However not a good comparison for quality and faults. Stamp collectors WANT and NEED faults in their stamps cos they're worth more!! :)
And.. the purpose of a warranty is to ensure that the 'occasional' problem is quickly resolved by repair, replacement or refund. A warranty shouldn't be the manufacturer's method of quality control, relying on the poor old customer to find the fault and return the product.
I spent 20+ years as a consultant designing quality assurance and control systems for dozens of companies
of all sizes. The main objective has to be good quality (fit for purpose) all the time with the resulting happy customers.
There are many posts about how smaller companies can't afford such objectives but in most cases it costs more to resolve issues with a product that has been shipped faulty than it does to make sure its right in the first place.
Happy customers are essential for a thriving business. Yes, we only hear about the problems with locos in the main. That's because people expect things to be 'fit for purpose' and have a right to complain if things aren't. Most people don't want or expect to have to fix 'small' problems themselves. Even if only a few people complain this will tarnish the reputation of the manufacturer/supplier.
Don't get me wrong - current N gauge models have advanced in terms of detail and accuracy but they have, in my opinion, got worse in quality with higher shipped fault/failure rates. This is true to such an extent that I only buy locos from my local model shop where I can see them working before I buy and choose the best of the bunch.
Buying online, although not the fault of the retailers generally, is a bit of a lottery.
Lecture over - lets just encourage the manufacturer's to do better in terms of quality rather than making excuses for their poor quality.
:beers:
Just as well Dapol don't make parachutes :D
Just as well Farish don't make them either!
Since they can't seem to make simple plastic gears that don't split I certainly wouldn't want a parachute from them. BR Lines would be no help as you plummet to Earth at 125mph :goggleeyes:
Paul
Just an aside.. I'm not singling out Dapol for quality issues, Farish have their moments too.
On the other hand Union Mills seem to be the other side of the quality coin. OK You don't get the detail and sophistication of Dapol/Farish, but you know what you are going to get and you have a very high probability of getting a loco that does what it says on the tin. Result... loads of very happy customers.
That's what quality is about.
I thank you......
:beers:
Simple solution, UM sell their chassis to Dapol who add
the detailed body, of course you'd be stuck with mostly
inside cylinder 0-6-0 locos .....................
with tenders!!
:)
Quote from: Fardap on March 23, 2017, 07:59:02 AM
it is part of being a modeller that you have the ability to modify and rectify minor issues
I don't and won't.
If it doesn't work from the box, back it goes. I don't expect to pay over £100 for a model and then have to 'fettle' it myself.
This applies regardless of manufacturer or what I'm buying.
Quote from: broadsword on March 23, 2017, 09:05:24 AM
Just as well Dapol don't make parachutes :D
Or nuclear power stations !
Quote from: Fardap on March 23, 2017, 07:59:02 AM
Have said it before and will say it again, the unhappy few are more likely to post about a problem than the happy many who don't have an issue with a purchase..
That's what I thought when getting into British N gauge a couple of years back, and was prepared to accept that there might be one or two duds, but compared to the wide range of Japanese and German stock I have the British stuff is much more likely to fail (Farish with split gears, Dapol with the electrickery), and I think I have a large enough sample now that it's not a statistical fluke. I also don't see the same level of complaints about German or Japanese stuff.
Where there's smoke there's fire (or a faulty Dapol class 33 which went poof! on me a few laps out of the box - though the replacement is fine).
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 08:48:50 AM
Stamp collectors WANT and NEED faults in their stamps cos they're worth more!! :)
:idea: Now, if we could just capture that mindset and install that way of thinking into model railway enthusiasts.
Could be on a winner there. :hmmm:
CFJ
I firmly agree that if a new loco - or anything for that matter - is faulty out the box, or shortly after, then back it goes, tout suite. To do otherwise is to allow manufacturers to continue to churn out sub-standard goods without censure.
I have not bought Dapol nor will I, but in my short time here on the Forum I have noted two things: firstly, the number of posts that refer to faulty locos from them, with poor build and bad wiring and drive connections seemingly all too common; secondly the number of posts from folks defending them gamely.
Okay, so I get that the exterior detail and quality of their models is considered very good, but if what's on the inside needs attention from new in as many instances as get noted here then I would not consider them worthy of defence.
I have bought Swiss outline from Fleischmann, Kato, Hobbytrain, Marbartren, Liliput, Sowa-N, Trix and others, but so far all the items bought new have functioned perfectly, have had no discernible faults, and therefore have been worth the extra cost these manufacturers charge. I'm not saying they are perfect, and others no doubt will have had different experiences with these brands, but I don't find a wealth of criticism matching that relating to Dapol here or on other Forums and webpages.
If loyalty to a maker like Dapol means buying sub-standard, faulty goods and accepting that as normal or perhaps part of the fun, then I don't get it. :hmmm: If my new car arrived with wiring that broke and gears that split, or a dashboard light that doesn't work, would I just patch it up? I think not!
Shoot me down if you like, but that's just how I see it - with all manufacturers, be they model train makers, car manufacturers, or the folks who build this magical little electronic box of tricks I'm typing on - which has always worked just fine, right out the box. :) (if it didn't I'd have sent it back)
Quote from: escafeld on March 23, 2017, 11:47:51 AM
But when Farish produced less sophisticated/lower detail models they still managed to get split gears :confused1: and 30 years later they have not managed to fixed it. Maybe its just another profit line for them selling replacement gears
Just finished replacing a split gear, other bogie feels a little "gritty" so probably another replacement on the way.
Such a simple thing, a bit of plastic on a bit of metal - how can one get it wrong for so long?
CFJ
Quote from: escafeld on March 22, 2017, 11:24:31 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 22, 2017, 11:15:34 PM
I've only had a handful of Dapol products but never had a single problem with any of them I couldn't fix in 30 seconds.
Long may Dapol prosper and keep delivering quality I've come to know.
Its the nature of anything manufactured... They wont be perfect and when you deal with small volumes, these issues are just amplified. There isn't the ability to tack 10% extra volume to an order because you know you'll have faults. To expect everything to work faultless first time out of the box is quite frankly ridiculous. This is the purpose of warranties because this isn't an ideal world...
This is the issue of a niche market. That said if you do want to take up a fault free hobby there's always stamp colllecting ;D
All products should work straight out of the box. That should be what Quality Assurance is for. The warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started using it. This applies to all products not just model rail.
Personally I have 13 Dapol locos and the have all worked out of the box. The only failures I have had are with two Farish locos that arrived with split gears which were returned for replacement
But what if these models worked at QA then were shipped out to customers and modellers to then find out they don't work? Once a locomotive has been run in it should spend a long time providing faultless running before wear starts to cause issue. This follows the comment you make that "The Warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started"
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
But what if these models worked at QA then were shipped out to customers and modellers to then find out they don't work? Once a locomotive has been run in it should spend a long time providing faultless running before wear starts to cause issue. This follows the comment you make that "The Warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started"
Hi
I doubt very much every loco is put through the QA process as it would cost too much, it would be more likely random sampling.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: PaulCheffus on March 23, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
But what if these models worked at QA then were shipped out to customers and modellers to then find out they don't work? Once a locomotive has been run in it should spend a long time providing faultless running before wear starts to cause issue. This follows the comment you make that "The Warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started"
Hi
I doubt very much every loco is put through the QA process as it would cost too much, it would be more likely random sampling.
Cheers
Paul
It's the most cost effective approach. It's probably one of these scenarios where all the parts are checked individually at manufacture found to be working and the assembly is actually what throws up issues.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:57:43 PM
Quote from: PaulCheffus on March 23, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
But what if these models worked at QA then were shipped out to customers and modellers to then find out they don't work? Once a locomotive has been run in it should spend a long time providing faultless running before wear starts to cause issue. This follows the comment you make that "The Warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started"
Hi
I doubt very much every loco is put through the QA process as it would cost too much, it would be more likely random sampling.
Cheers
Paul
It's the most cost effective approach. It's probably one of these scenarios where all the parts are checked individually at manufacture found to be working and the assembly is actually what throws up issues.
However the number of products sampled should be dependent upon the number of faulty products found. The more faults (including warranty returns) then the bigger the sample has to be for confidence that the shipped product is good. In the limit, too many faults requires 100% inspection.
This is standard test/inspection sampling planning. I doubt Dapol (or Farish) do this properly.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 01:11:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:57:43 PM
Quote from: PaulCheffus on March 23, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
But what if these models worked at QA then were shipped out to customers and modellers to then find out they don't work? Once a locomotive has been run in it should spend a long time providing faultless running before wear starts to cause issue. This follows the comment you make that "The Warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started"
Hi
I doubt very much every loco is put through the QA process as it would cost too much, it would be more likely random sampling.
Cheers
Paul
It's the most cost effective approach. It's probably one of these scenarios where all the parts are checked individually at manufacture found to be working and the assembly is actually what throws up issues.
However the number of products sampled should be dependent upon the number of faulty products found. The more faults (including warranty returns) then the bigger the sample has to be for confidence that the shipped product is good. In the limit, too many faults requires 100% inspection.
This is standard test/inspection sampling planning. I doubt Dapol (or Farish) do this properly.
:beers:
Your quite right failure rates should dictate inspection rates.
Yet the figures manufacturers have for Mean Time Between Failures or Percentage Faults to batch size is distorted unless every fault is reported. In a hobby where make do and mend is very common...
Split gears aren't unique to Farish by any means.
Over the years I've had Arnold locos with the same problem. Typically the final axle drive gear on bogie diesels/electrics, where it's a small size and too tight on the shaft and the plastic has failed over time. Arnold spares can cost a fortune (if you can find them), but fortunately I've been able to source suitable replacements from MicroAntriebe. You just need to count the teeth and work out the MOD value and thickness, and see what they've got in standard stock or can make to order.
I know some folk go on about not liking brass gears because they're noisy and they wear out leaving metal in the mechanism, but to be honest I'd still rather have brass gears. Properly maintained they last just fine.
Quote from: daffy on March 23, 2017, 12:07:52 PM
I have bought Swiss outline from Fleischmann, Kato, Hobbytrain, Marbartren, Liliput, Sowa-N, Trix and others, but so far all the items bought new have functioned perfectly, have had no discernible faults, and therefore have been worth the extra cost these manufacturers charge.
And therein lies the truth of it all, the models you have bought have been "worth the extra cost".
Quote. . . in my short time here on the Forum I have noted two things: firstly, the number of posts that refer to faulty locos from them, with poor build and bad wiring and drive connections seemingly all too common; secondly the number of posts from folks defending them gamely.
So presumably the THIRD thing you might have noticed is that there's also a lot of people that continually moan and groan about the price of UK outline models even though they are cheaper than those you have mentioned, AND that a lot of those moaning about said prices are the same people who complain about lack of quality!
Some want cheap AND 100% reliable and that just isn't going to happen, outside of Union Mills who are still in the 1980s with regard to detail finish.
Paul
I for one, as I've indicated before on this forum, would be more than happy to pay more if that's what it takes for a properly working and reliable loco.
:beers:
Quote from: Sprintex on March 23, 2017, 01:27:21 PM
Quote from: daffy on March 23, 2017, 12:07:52 PM
I have bought Swiss outline from Fleischmann, Kato, Hobbytrain, Marbartren, Liliput, Sowa-N, Trix and others, but so far all the items bought new have functioned perfectly, have had no discernible faults, and therefore have been worth the extra cost these manufacturers charge.
And therein lies the truth of it all, the models you have bought have been "worth the extra cost".
Yet are they really that much more expensive? Granted there's a bit of a hike recently with the exchange rate fluctuations etc. and some of the prices for DCC and sound fitted stuff is eye-watering (not something I'm interested in), but I can still find new locos of those makes mentioned for around the £90 - £120 mark, and multiple units in the £150 range.
The contintental N brands don't always get it right: I've had motors fail on Liliput FLIRT emus, a known fault with these if you read german forums, and I had to order replacements at cost. Of course Liliput is part of the Bachmann/kader empire these days.
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 01:11:34 PM
However the number of products sampled should be dependent upon the number of faulty products found. The more faults (including warranty returns) then the bigger the sample has to be for confidence that the shipped product is good. In the limit, too many faults requires 100% inspection.
This is standard test/inspection sampling planning. I doubt Dapol (or Farish) do this properly.
:beers:
That isn't how QC works. All products receive visual QC at the factory and mechanical QC testing is based on failure rates. Acceptable failure rates are given by the factory and get exponentially more expensive as you reduce the likelihood of failure (i.e. If you agree to a failure rate of say 0.1% it might be 100 times as expensive as a failure rate of say 1%). Moreover, people often talk about how rising costs are tied to Chinese factory worker pay increases; the cost of QC is ALL labor. The type of 100% reliability people are talking about wanting to pay for, they can't even begin to fathom affording. We are talking about a shift from 125£ for a newly tooled loco to a cost of 400+£. Just not a feasible market shift.
Common procedure for final inspection...
Choose an AQL (acceptable quality level)
Choose batch size
note failure rate from previous batch.
Look up sample size from aql tables
Look up number of failures allowed in sample
Carry out sample inspection/test
If failures less than allowed then ship batch and maybe reduce sample for next batch
If failures more than allowed then increase sample size as necessary. Maybe increase sample size for next batch.
Examine reasons for failures
Make improvements (design, components, operator training, test methods - whatever)
The limit for sampling depending on sample failures, could be zero for good quality and be 100 percent for poor quality
Yes it will cost more to have a bigger sample and a lot more to inspect 100 percent the whole point is to reduce customer exposure to faulty product and have a process of continuous improvement in design and production to achieve this and reduce failures and costs.
:beers:
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 01:19:58 PM
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 01:11:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:57:43 PM
Quote from: PaulCheffus on March 23, 2017, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 23, 2017, 12:25:24 PM
But what if these models worked at QA then were shipped out to customers and modellers to then find out they don't work? Once a locomotive has been run in it should spend a long time providing faultless running before wear starts to cause issue. This follows the comment you make that "The Warranty is for if anything goes wrong after you have started using it which worked correctly when you first started"
Hi
I doubt very much every loco is put through the QA process as it would cost too much, it would be more likely random sampling.
Cheers
Paul
It's the most cost effective approach. It's probably one of these scenarios where all the parts are checked individually at manufacture found to be working and the assembly is actually what throws up issues.
However the number of products sampled should be dependent upon the number of faulty products found. The more faults (including warranty returns) then the bigger the sample has to be for confidence that the shipped product is good. In the limit, too many faults requires 100% inspection.
This is standard test/inspection sampling planning. I doubt Dapol (or Farish) do this properly.
:beers:
Your quite right failure rates should dictate inspection rates.
Yet the figures manufacturers have for Mean Time Between Failures or Percentage Faults to batch size is distorted unless every fault is reported. In a hobby where make do and mend is very common...
You cant inspect quality into a product. It needs to be built right first time every time. As I have said before, Dapol are minnows compared to the Chinese manufacturers and have no business clout to force the factory to do better. Yes they could move their business somewhere else -but where. And would the current factory be the least bit worried about losing the Dapol contract - of course not because it is such a small part of their total business. Forcing other companies to do what you want is all about size and spend.
You're right, you can't inspect quality into a product. You need to have quality in mind at every stage. Design, components, manufacturing processes, choice of sub contractors etc etc. Its called quality assurance.
However, if you've skimped on this then you have to rely on inspection to filter out the baddies. If you don't do inspection either then it's down to luck as to whether the customer gets a goodun or not.
I often feel this last scenario is where we're at right now.
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 02:41:19 PM
You're right, you can't inspect quality into a product. You need to have quality in mind at every stage. Design, components, manufacturing processes, choice of sub contractors etc etc. Its called quality assurance.
However, if you've skimped on this then you have to rely on inspection to filter out the baddies. If you don't do inspection either then it's down to luck as to whether the customer gets a goodun or not.
I often feel this last scenario is where we're at right now.
:beers:
But if you are a very small part of a factories total business you have no power to force them to improve - thats Dapol's problem with quality. You need clout in business, something they havent got because of their size.
A number of issues continue to be aired.
Thank you Austinbob for your succinct explanations of how QC works - the place of sampling. This is what I was taught when I did my own professional studies in the early 70s. I trained in that body of accountants whose feet were planted firmly in understanding the basics at least of how factories worked!
With sample testing some faulty goods will get through. should be very few though. Question - is the failure rate we experience on UK N gauge so high as to suggest better QC checking is needed. I don't know but sense it is, though I have been in the lucky majority and have had no duffs from a large number of recent models.
I am quite prepared to do simple minor adjustments myself. And with 80s Farish quite often did - successfully. Maybe I shouldn't have to but I get on with it. That said, rather like cars, the whole thing is so much more complex and fiddly these days, and also less robust, so DIY carries more risk of self inflicted damage. So that and my worsening hand tremor make we more wary with what I will attempt.
That may be true Chris, I don't know. I'm just pointing out some of the techniques that can be used to improve quality and reliability. To be honest, if somewhat brutal, the internal problems that manufacturers have in producing a range of n gauge products is not my concern. They chose to be in this market of their own volition. My problem is that they don't always deliver an acceptable product.
:beers:
In conversations over the years with people from both Dapol and Bachmann it is clear that the Chinese often do not follow their instructions. The order in which things are made, the quantities can all change on the whim of the Chinese factory. They do not always do things to specification and they are inconsistent in the way they do things which leads to quality issues. The only way to improve is to move business elsewhere. I notice nobody here is saying they know a factory which is all set up and ready to build small volume model railway items - probably because there aren't any. I think people have to get real. Building little trains in very small volumes is not like building motor cars, light bulbs etc where quantities are huge and the brand owner has total control over the production process.
Like I say, there is absolutely nothing stopping all those on this thread who know so much setting up their own business and making higher quality products than Dapol. There is also nothing stopping players such as Kato making items for the UK market. The fact that they don't suggests that they don't see much in the way of profits here.
In an ideal world Chris they should select a sub contractor who can do th job properly. I hear all the reasons why this is difficult or even impossible but if they are gonna stay in this business then they need to up their game.
Here are two possible options (I'm sure there are others)
1. Do the production work themselves or choose a sub contractor who does the work properly and put the prices up accordingly.
2. Change the description of the product to include a note such as 'this product may have varying degrees of problem beyond our direct control. Many can be easily fixed by experienced modeller others may need to be sent back to us for repair or replacement.'.
With latter, at least they would be telling it as it is.
:beers:
I think people will pay more if they KNOW the thing they're getting has a much higher chance of working properly, and for a long time. It's why so many people love Kato Unitrack, it's why Lionel was the boss when I was a kid working with larger scale. Every Lionel item from the 80s that I abused as a kid still works. Up in the attic 10 years? No problem. I dust of old Life-Like or Kato N scale stuff after years? Still light up, still go, go, go.
I'd pay more (now how much, I don't know?) to KNOW I was getting something that was much less likely to die in short order.
I understand Chris. My elder son designs and builds control systems for a large engineering firm. He found a computer, built outside of the firm by a contractor to his specification, came back and wouldn't work. Code was checked, no issues in the 500000+ lines of code. Components were checked, and one processor was not the one specified but a recognised industry substitute. Change to the correct processor and it worked.
However Union Mills seem to have sorted the running side out. I'd bought 8 or 9 of their locos second hand over the years and in the last 5 weeks have bought two new ones direct from Colin, who is a joy to deal with. So much so that today I've ordered a J27 and a 2P. From past experience they'll be here tomorrow.
Yes I know the locos are all inside cylinder tender locos and lack some of the exquisite detail of Shed queens I own from GF and Dapol. But they run well, pull far more than the prototypes and are bomb proof. I'd rather see my trains run than repair a faulty new or very nearly new locomotive.
Now you can get detailed locomotives with great detail and reliability, Fleischmann, Arnold in their time and MinItrix have all done it in continental locomotives, I know I own several. So do several of the American outline manufacturers and I have owned several over the years, and still have some now.
So it is possible to make a super detailed reliable locomotive, but expect to pay more than we do now, meanwhile Union Mills will be getting a few more orders from me, especially if an Atlantic, or Single Wheeler of LNER constituents turns up on their list!
Spot on scottmitcell and byegad....
:) :)
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 23, 2017, 03:06:03 PM
In conversations over the years with people from both Dapol and Bachmann it is clear that the Chinese often do not follow their instructions. The order in which things are made, the quantities can all change on the whim of the Chinese factory. They do not always do things to specification and they are inconsistent in the way they do things which leads to quality issues.
I believe this is the reason why Rapido have their OWN factories in China, and is why Jason Shron learnt Mandarin so he could speak to them one-to-one without things getting "lost in translation" :thumbsup:
The big test for the UK market will be when we get the first powered Revolution Trains item (presumably still the Pendolino?), although I've heard very few complaints about Rapido's quality so far in either North American n Gauge or any 00/H0 model. The odd hiccup that has cropped up has been very swiftly and apologetically put right at no cost to the customer.
Paul
I'm not familiar with Rapido products Paul. How do they compare to Farish/Dapol on price?
:beers:
Quote from: Sprintex on March 23, 2017, 03:41:51 PM
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 23, 2017, 03:06:03 PM
In conversations over the years with people from both Dapol and Bachmann it is clear that the Chinese often do not follow their instructions. The order in which things are made, the quantities can all change on the whim of the Chinese factory. They do not always do things to specification and they are inconsistent in the way they do things which leads to quality issues.
I believe this is the reason why Rapido have their OWN factories in China, and is why Jason Shron learnt Mandarin so he could speak to them one-to-one without things getting "lost in translation" :thumbsup:
The big test for the UK market will be when we get the first powered Revolution Trains item (presumably still the Pendolino?), although I've heard very few complaints about Rapido's quality so far in either North American n Gauge or any 00/H0 model. The odd hiccup that has cropped up has been very swiftly and apologetically put right at no cost to the customer.
Paul
So one has to ask how many items a year do Rapido make compared to Dapol? If they sell products in the USA they will be selling 50 times more if each HO item than Dapol sell U.K. N gauge. That sort of volume would allow so much more to be done.
I've seen a union mills loco not work out of the box. A Dean goods last year. The owner and I had to do some fettling on it.
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 23, 2017, 04:03:54 PM
I've seen a union mills loco not work out of the box. A Dean goods last year. The owner and I had to do some fettling on it.
A rarity indeed... and the problem was?
:beers:
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 03:47:15 PM
I'm not familiar with Rapido products Paul. How do they compare to Farish/Dapol on price?
:beers:
and
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 23, 2017, 03:59:21 PM
So one has to ask how many items a year do Rapido make compared to Dapol? If they sell products in the USA they will be selling 50 times more if each HO item than Dapol sell U.K. N gauge. That sort of volume would allow so much more to be done.
No idea on both counts :D
This just comes from reading others' comments, things posted in Rapido updates, and having a good friend who models Canadian H0 :)
Paul
Whats Happened to the days when the Shop owner would test run a loco prior to sending it out to the customer?
Farish Poole had warranty cards in the box that were for for filling in and stamping after a purchase on the grounds the retailer would actually test it before selling and posting it.
Why don't the manufacturers put a sticker on the box for the retailers, Stating "PLEASE CHECK ITS WORKING PRIOR TO SELLING" I'ts not really Rocket Science and it would prevent complaints from the customers.
It's a good idea but some locos develop problems just after they have been run in. I had one that did. Testing in a shop does weed out the complete duds though.
Maybe that would help if the retailer tested each loco. I know my failures have disappeared since I started buying in store where every loco I buy is tested and I can even choose the best runner. But this just means the retailer is doing the final inspection. The manufacturer is effectively passing the buck to the retailer.
I really appreciate my retailer testing my locos but feel sorry he's got to send all the dodgy ones I reject back to the manufacturer.
:beers:
My experience is that where the circuit board is the issue (and that is usually the issue with faulty Dapol models), it usually shows up within what could reasonably described as 'running in' - I've had one go up in smoke (literally) and refuse to move again, and several with the more usual problem where the lights stop working at one or both ends.
For those of you who just want to drag the staff of Dapol into a public square and flog them to within an inch of their life (I think I am summarizing this correctly :D) can I relate a tale of redemption of a Dapol locomotive.
At the Abingdon show on Saturday I happened across a perspex box on the club second hand stall. In it were the remains (and I use the words advisedly) of a Dapol Southern Terrier. In short it had been speared through the heart with a 60 Watt soldering iron in an attempt to fix a loose wire. It would have been hard to do more damage with a blow torch, however having nursed a number of these beasties back to life I paid the princely sum of £10. Despite solder holes in the gears, mangled pickups and the rest, I am pleased to report it is now purring round my test track running on a DCC chip as well.
The point of this story is that the Dapol locos are actually very well designed and when they are built correctly (not always the case from the China factory) or repaired even with serious damage they can work very well.
Like most of the industry Dapol management are a bit weak and short on knowledge on how to schmooze customers (They cannot all be Allan Sugars) but they produce product that would not otherwise see the light of day at frankly surprisingly low cost.
Quote from: mark100 on March 23, 2017, 04:49:41 PM
Whats Happened to the days when the Shop owner would test run a loco prior to sending it out to the customer?
Farish Poole had warranty cards in the box that were for for filling in and stamping after a purchase on the grounds the retailer would actually test it before selling and posting it.
Why don't the manufacturers put a sticker on the box for the retailers, Stating "PLEASE CHECK ITS WORKING PRIOR TO SELLING" I'ts not really Rocket Science and it would prevent complaints from the customers.
All that is doing is loading expense onto the retailer (time to test each loco, deal with the returns) who will then want to pass that on to the customer (higher price).
I wonder how many people Hattons would have to employ to carefully unpack, test and repack each loco they sell?
One shop I dealt with lately does test used locos as a matter of course, but the used Fleischmann one I bought had issues of wheel binding on curves and odd engine noise, so still had to be rejected for a refund. The test bench in the shop is only a short straight track setup. :(
It would be nice if every supplier tested new locos prior to shipment, though most, if not all, buyers want new items in sealed boxes and some sellers, for obvious reasons, do not want to open factory sealed boxes. So buyer tests upon receipt must be carried out a.s.a.p. after receipt and ALL faults noted back to the supplier/manufacturer, even if you are happy :hmmm: to put things right yourself.
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 04:05:47 PM
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 23, 2017, 04:03:54 PM
I've seen a union mills loco not work out of the box. A Dean goods last year. The owner and I had to do some fettling on it.
A rarity indeed... and the problem was?
:beers:
Dirty wheels.
It was put on the track and didn't run. Stuttered along for a short with a push. Before sending it back we did a bit of checking and found the problem was at the wheel end. Easily fixed so not a problem so far as I am concerned. Just mentioned it as even UM aren't immune from problems out of the box.
I might buy a UM 2251 when it comes out but it will take a lot of work to bring it somewhere a good standard of detail.
Apart from a couple of used purchases on E Bay, my most recent 3 new items came from Arcadia in Shaw. A couple of mates and I sometimes do a day trip up there in person from Watford. Amazing shop. However, Tim, the governor, tests all locos on a straight end to end before releasing them. He had kept back a J39 for me to be collected by my friends. When it came out of the box, one of the tender handrails was loose and sprung off and disappeared into the carpet. That was going to be sent back. Thankfully he had one more of the version I wanted in stock so I had that. Fine runner. Anyway this is a retailer who can go that extra mile, and his prices are fair and competitive. But I take the point it is not really fair to expect the retailer to act as unpaid Quality Assurance tester.
Looks like you and I both have excellent local retailers. With mine I pay a bit more but get a good loco. If there's a subsequent problem then no trouble to get a replacement.
Interesting about second hand items, I've bought quite a few and never had a problem with any. Must be they've been used(hence tested) and faults (if any) ironed out.
:beers:
Quote from: Portpatrick on March 23, 2017, 06:01:24 PM
my most recent 3 new items came from Arcadia in Shaw.
I wouldn't call Oldham "local" to Watford ;D
Paul
Hmmmm ..probably right :)
Slip of the old typing fingers, or perhaps that last pint of IPA.
:laugh3:
We are quite mad going all that way. But once Alan had come across him there became every reason to use him
And we have a good boys day out
I'm more in awe you guys have actual model shops a relative distance from where you live. I end up driving for 45 minutes to a local shop as the closest doesn't have the best reputation. I still haven't been there to check it out just incase I'm bitterly disappointed.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 24, 2017, 01:08:42 PM
I still haven't been [to closest local model shop] to check it out just in case I'm bitterly disappointed.
That's a bit silly tbh, go check it out and make up your own mind. Whoever it is saying it has a bad reputation may just be one disgruntled customer.
Quote from: Nik96 on March 24, 2017, 01:08:42 PM
I end up driving for 45 minutes to a local shop as the closest doesn't have the best reputation. I still haven't been there to check it out just incase I'm bitterly disappointed.
Going by your location if that "closest shop" is KS Models in Stevenage then they are pretty good ;)
Like most small shops they don't carry much in the way of N gauge locos and coaches/wagons, but they'll happily order stuff in for you. Quite good on scenic stuff and construction items like brass, ali or plastic strip too :thumbsup:
Due to semi-retirement they're only open Thursday-Saturday.
Paul
Thanks for that . . . might have to pay him a visit, just to browse like :uneasy: :)
Paul
Quote from: ntpntpntp on March 24, 2017, 01:14:41 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 24, 2017, 01:08:42 PM
I still haven't been [to closest local model shop] to check it out just in case I'm bitterly disappointed.
That's a bit silly tbh, go check it out and make up your own mind. Whoever it is saying it has a bad reputation may just be one disgruntled customer.
The closest shop I've been to and have just been mildly disappointed by limited offerings and high prices. It's probably worth a return visit though seeing as it's been a while. The alternative I haven't been to as it's 45 minutes away and don't want to make a journey like that to be dissapointed.
Quote from: Sprintex on March 24, 2017, 01:41:34 PM
Quote from: Nik96 on March 24, 2017, 01:08:42 PM
I end up driving for 45 minutes to a local shop as the closest doesn't have the best reputation. I still haven't been there to check it out just incase I'm bitterly disappointed.
Going by your location if that "closest shop" is KS Models in Stevenage then they are pretty good ;)
Like most small shops they don't carry much in the way of N gauge locos and coaches/wagons, but they'll happily order stuff in for you. Quite good on scenic stuff and construction items like brass, ali or plastic strip too :thumbsup:
Due to semi-retirement they're only open Thursday-Saturday.
Paul
I remember the selection of materials was good in there, It's worth a return trip as it's been a while but I just remember being put off by the prices with the limited selection.
This' more than likely a case of small shop syndrome and perhaps I have perceptions that aren't realistic.
Just another minor issue with Dapol. On Wednesday I ordered 3 wagons off their website and, unlike all other online outlets I deal with, I received no e mailed order acknowledgment. OK, I could see my order on their website and the wagons arrived today so the service was fine but it struck me as strange :hmmm:
Quote from: escafeld on March 24, 2017, 08:53:51 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on March 24, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
Just another minor issue with Dapol. On Wednesday I ordered 3 wagons off their website and, unlike all other online outlets I deal with, I received no e mailed order acknowledgment. OK, I could see my order on their website and the wagons arrived today so the service was fine but it struck me as strange :hmmm:
When I've ordered in the past I received an acknowledgement of the order with the title "Dapol - Order ####". The email came from sales@dapol.co.uk and was within a few minutes of placing the order. Have you checked your spam folder?
Yup. No acknowledgment at all. I can only surmise when their website went down very recently some functions are still not back to normal then.
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 02:19:56 PM
Common procedure for final inspection...
Choose an AQL (acceptable quality level)
Choose batch size
note failure rate from previous batch.
Look up sample size from aql tables
Look up number of failures allowed in sample
Carry out sample inspection/test
If failures less than allowed then ship batch and maybe reduce sample for next batch
If failures more than allowed then increase sample size as necessary. Maybe increase sample size for next batch.
Examine reasons for failures
Make improvements (design, components, operator training, test methods - whatever)
The limit for sampling depending on sample failures, could be zero for good quality and be 100 percent for poor quality
Yes it will cost more to have a bigger sample and a lot more to inspect 100 percent the whole point is to reduce customer exposure to faulty product and have a process of continuous improvement in design and production to achieve this and reduce failures and costs.
:beers:
You forgot what appears to be the final step (if web forums are to be believed)
Send Customer X only items that failed the QA checks. Send Customer Y only items that passed the QA checks. ;)
Or perhaps that phenomenon of some getting all good ones and others all bad ones is actually explained by:
Quote from: austinbob on March 23, 2017, 04:57:50 PM
Maybe that would help if the retailer tested each loco. I know my failures have disappeared since I started buying in store where every loco I buy is tested and I can even choose the best runner. But this just means the retailer is doing the final inspection.
It has been theorized that the first true sign of computer consciousness will be seen when computers stet to be ashamed of what their owners do on them and turn themselves off.
Possibly a stirring of life on the Dapol server then?
Quote from: Ian Morton on March 23, 2017, 05:34:54 PM
All that is doing is loading expense onto the retailer (time to test each loco, deal with the returns) who will then want to pass that on to the customer (higher price).
I wonder how many people Hattons would have to employ to carefully unpack, test and repack each loco they sell?
Lets do the maths...
Give a quite generous 10 minutes per loco (including time to unpack & repack it) so say 6 locos tester per hour.
Assume the testers are paid a bit above minimum wage say £8/hour so with on-costs, it costs the employer around £12/hour in total.
That's £2 per loco.
I'd happily pay that insignificant extra on a £120++ item to guarantee it would work out of the box and avoid the hassle of having to return it...
Quote from: PLD on March 24, 2017, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: Ian Morton on March 23, 2017, 05:34:54 PM
All that is doing is loading expense onto the retailer (time to test each loco, deal with the returns) who will then want to pass that on to the customer (higher price).
I wonder how many people Hattons would have to employ to carefully unpack, test and repack each loco they sell?
Lets do the maths...
Give a quite generous 10 minutes per loco (including time to unpack & repack it) so say 6 locos tester per hour.
Assume the testers are paid a bit above minimum wage say £8/hour so with on-costs, it costs the employer around £12/hour in total.
That's £2 per loco.
I'd happily pay that insignificant extra on a £120++ item to guarantee it would work out of the box and avoid the hassle of having to return it...
...There's no way a model retailer should test every loco before it goes out because it should be good to go from the factory. The fact it may or may not be tested at the factory is another discussion. But I agree, if for example the one chance I get to Harburn Hobbies each year -if I purchase a loco I'll ask it to be run up and down on the shelf before it's rung up on the till.
I personally have no axe to grind with Dapol because I have looked at a few of their locos I'm interested and the paint job was awful and not good enough for me to part with £90+. I actually sold my last Dapol china clay tankers because I found the Dapol couplings never stayed connected -but hey they were beautiful to look at.
I'm at the point now Ican understand how the hobby will continue with folk willing to pay £150+. I can't justify that and have pulled back on almost all loco purchases for some time since they went triple figures now, so those that will pay that are making up for me and the manufacturers will continue.
It's a tough one for the manufacturers I guess. I think I came back to the hobby at a bad time after a long cessation since my youf' in OO: boom time for 2n'd hand, new products were cheap. Now I'm seeing an almost 50% increase in prices in the last 2 years I am re-evaluating the hobby, I'm not sure what to do.
Rich
As I've said in the past, I've been lucky with my Dapol purchases and had very few problems (touch wood)
I have one loco that screeches but otherwise runs well, I wanted to dismantle it and apply a tiny bit of oil to the motor bearings to try and stop the noise. Trying to get it apart was a nightmare as it clips together, so the body is held together with a combination of plastic and paint. I think most of their locos are like that, it's obviously easier, cheaper and quicker at the manufacturing stage to clip the locos together rather than to use screws. That makes it more difficullt for repairs to be made, so if they do pack up they are almost impossible to repair even if you can get spares!
They are designed to last for the two years of their guarantee period and after that you're on your own.
Quote from: PLD on March 24, 2017, 11:20:09 PM
Quote from: Ian Morton on March 23, 2017, 05:34:54 PM
All that is doing is loading expense onto the retailer (time to test each loco, deal with the returns) who will then want to pass that on to the customer (higher price).
I wonder how many people Hattons would have to employ to carefully unpack, test and repack each loco they sell?
Lets do the maths...
Give a quite generous 10 minutes per loco (including time to unpack & repack it) so say 6 locos tester per hour.
Assume the testers are paid a bit above minimum wage say £8/hour so with on-costs, it costs the employer around £12/hour in total.
That's £2 per loco.
I'd happily pay that insignificant extra on a £120++ item to guarantee it would work out of the box and avoid the hassle of having to return it...
Doesn't work out like that. The cost of employing someone is more than what you pay them - NI, pension, paid holidays etc. Also you have to have a facility - a desk, lamp, pc, test track. This takes up space which has to be found. This costs as space costs and once it is used for this it cant be used for making a profit on other work. The total cost would be at least double what you say. You will always get locos that run fine at first and then croak.
Quote from: Chris Morris on March 25, 2017, 06:42:12 AM
Quote from: PLD on March 24, 2017, 11:20:09 PM
Lets do the maths...
Give a quite generous 10 minutes per loco (including time to unpack & repack it) so say 6 locos tester per hour.
Assume the testers are paid a bit above minimum wage say £8/hour so with on-costs, it costs the employer around £12/hour in total.
That's £2 per loco.
I'd happily pay that insignificant extra on a £120++ item to guarantee it would work out of the box and avoid the hassle of having to return it...
Doesn't work out like that. The cost of employing someone is more than what you pay them - NI, pension, paid holidays etc.
Read the post you quote in full before trying to pick holes in it... :read2: ::)
Neither of us has The information to calculate the true cost would or how effective it would be.
This whole topic is rather disappointing. I started a topic to illustrate how Dapol had moved UK N gauge forward and illustrate what would not have been possible if they hadn't bothered. That topic had 44 replies. The mods quite rightly removed the moans from that topic and started a this one which has had 76 replies, frequently from people who know more about making model railways than Dapol. This topic will have been read by the human beings who work for and manage Dapol. They are real people working hard to make products that we enjoy. I am sure they are more frustrated with the issues from the Chinese factory than we are. I wouldn't blame them if they decided to not bother with any future N gauge projects,
I understand what you're saying Chris, but at the end of the day they are a supplier and we are the customers. We must remember that a business exists to serve customers and if they don't have products that the customer wants and that work properly and reliably they will ultimately go out of business.
The performance of a business is ultimately down to the management and management systems.
I too feel sorry for people who work for companies who are sort of caught in the middle. People generally want to do a good job. If they are prevented from doing so by events or situations that are not under their control then that is very frustrating and also worrying in terms of job security.
The number of posts in this thread (76 I think you said) just reflects many customers frustration and disappointment at the poor quality they receive from some manufacturers.
We will have to bide our time and see if N gauge companies up their game or eventually go out of business. I don't believe things can carry on as they are in some quarters.
At the moment, for me, the compromise solution for minimising the risk of buying a dodgy loco is to by one in store at my local and very good retailer, who will test locos while I watch.
Costs 10% more than online but well worth the extra to avoid the disappointment of receiving and sorting out a dodgy model.
As I've said before I would rather the manufacturers sorted out their quality and reliablity issues and charged more.
:beers:
I agree with Chris: disappointing.
There are approximately the same number of contributors to both this and his tribute thread, but this one is twice as long.
A disappointing observation confirming the assertion that complaints outnumber praise.
Re.I also have more trouble with dapol chassis now than when they first started to produce in n gauge plus other things ie detail coming loose from body paint blemish and so forth , May be they have over stretch them selves with producing other scales ,also dapol and farish release dates are more sporadic than say ok gauge ,maybe this is just that n gauge is still lagging behind in many aspects
Quote from: wizbit44 on March 25, 2017, 09:30:11 AM
Re.I also have more trouble with dapol chassis now than when they first started to produce in n gauge plus other things ie detail coming loose from body paint blemish and so forth , May be they have over stretch them selves with producing other scales ,also dapol and farish release dates are more sporadic than say ok gauge ,maybe this is just that n gauge is still lagging behind in many aspects
Looks like you've just joined the forum wizbit44. Welcome and be assured that there are only a few gloomy threads like this one.
The forum is full of ideas and help. Just ask if you have a problem and post about your N gauge interests and layouts etc.
:beers:
Interesting, for sure.
It seems to me that what is forgotten is the physical restraints of N.
The models are small, and comparisons to 00 models are to me, pointless.
Re physical restraints do Z gauge modellers have the same rate of loco
failure, only I or 2 suppliers in that gauge AFAIK.
Quote from: broadsword on March 25, 2017, 09:56:00 AM
Re physical restraints do Z gauge modellers have the same rate of loco
failure, only I or 2 suppliers in that gauge AFAIK.
But how much do they cost compared to N gauge dodgy locos!!
:beers:
They cost quite a bit more, but then N gauge locos are almost
the same price as OO/HO.
The only reason I'm interested in Z gauge is to add a narrow gauge to my layout.
Quote from: Yet_Another on March 25, 2017, 09:08:36 AM
There are approximately the same number of contributors to both this and his tribute thread, but this one is twice as long.
A disappointing observation confirming the assertion that complaints outnumber praise.
All I think that demonstrates is that people are more likely to complain than to praise. I've had very few problems with Dapol locos (a couple) but haven't bothered to post on the tribute page.
I think the major thing people are forgetting is that these are handbuilt reasonably complex models produced in their hundreds or low thousands (compared to say a solid state piece of consumer electronics produced in hundreds of thousands or millions). It is all very well saying design out problems (costs a considerable amount (compared to the low production numbers) in terms of R&D) or test everyone (doesn't really prove much except that it works in the factory - plenty can go wrong in shipping and continued operation), but will people pay considerably more?
The N gauge market is so shallow that I doubt you can produce a minimum of 1000 (and preferably more) with higher prices - some will happily pay, but a significant proportion won't (and will complain about being priced out).
Cheers, Mike
Quote from: red_death on March 25, 2017, 10:41:20 AM
Quote from: Yet_Another on March 25, 2017, 09:08:36 AM
There are approximately the same number of contributors to both this and his tribute thread, but this one is twice as long.
A disappointing observation confirming the assertion that complaints outnumber praise.
All I think that demonstrates is that people are more likely to complain than to praise. I've had very few problems with Dapol locos (a couple) but haven't bothered to post on the tribute page.
I think the major thing people are forgetting is that these are handbuilt reasonably complex models produced in their hundreds or low thousands (compared to say a solid state piece of consumer electronics produced in hundreds of thousands or millions). It is all very well saying design out problems (costs a considerable amount (compared to the low production numbers) in terms of R&D) or test everyone (doesn't really prove much except that it works in the factory - plenty can go wrong in shipping and continued operation), but will people pay considerably more?
The N gauge market is so shallow that I doubt you can produce a minimum of 1000 (and preferably more) with higher prices - some will happily pay, but a significant proportion won't (and will complain about being priced out).
Cheers, Mike
Good points, Mike. I think N gauge locos must present a unique set of engineering challenges. The size is small, the number of parts is high, the production volumes are small and the market is price sensitive.
I don't think it's wrong to want locos to work straight out of the box and to keep working for a reasonable length of time. But I'm not sure that it is possible to apply the standards of other consumer goods that are made in larger numbers and/or are less complicated to make.
For what it's worth I've had failures from both Graham Farish and Dapol locos. I am also as disappointed as anyone at the recent announcement that certain models have been deferred (whether temporarily or permanently we don't know).
In the future I hope Dapol is able to deliver some more new N gauge models and also deliver improved quality for all the models it makes.
Quote from: Only Me on March 24, 2017, 07:57:00 PM
@Nik96 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=5138) whats the other one close to Royston then pls, i thought there was only KS or are we talking Trains4you in Peterborough?
Cheers paul
There is/was a shop in Saffron Walden I was made aware of. It's possibly closer if you're going from Royston. There name escapes me.