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Author Topic: IKEA n guage wireing  (Read 564 times)

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Offline funkyorange

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IKEA n guage wireing
« on: November 08, 2018, 11:01:12 pm »
I'm new to this . But I have hacked IKEA table to fit in a train set


I'm new to this. I'm stuck in how to wire it up

My idea is im going to ditch the Bachman controller to powercab type with integrated points .

Track is kato. Limited vertical height .

My main issues are:

Wiring , can I run a bus round the inside of the Kato track - small space as it's on plastic raised pieces . Or i was thinking of putting felt pads and running wires underneath ?

All my points are wired with motors not quite sure how these are wired in as I am to ditch the blue point switches in favour of a powercab type integrated controller

Line feeds , how many would be needed in this type of layout ?

Sorry for a basic questions , Any help greatly appeciated 😀



Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 07:35:07 am »
Hi!

Difficult to tell from the photo, but is your trackwork inside a "box" or is that just an optical illusion? If so then your track is a bit close to the sides there, you may get collisions with the woodwork?

Good plan to upgrade to a PowerCab, they're good proven units.

On a layout that small you really don't need to run a DCC bus in my opinion. You should be fine with just a couple of track feeds, one for each loop.

Before you opt to operate the points via DCC, be sure that you will prefer/enjoy operating by pressing address buttons on the throttle? It's not as "instant" (may take a few presses depending on the address you use), and some people actually prefer to stick with the Kato levers. Not just because it saves money but because it's more like operating points in an old fashioned signal box!  Do you have a suitable power supply for the operating the points as they are?

To operate the points via DCC you will need to connect the point motors to accessory decoders which then connects to the DCC output.  Be aware that Kato point motors use a reversible DC two-wire system which is different to the 3-wire system of many other brands, so yo must make sure that the accessory decoder you buy is designed to drive the Kato motors. You can get accessory decoders to drive just one point motor or ones with multiple output channels.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 07:39:02 am by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2018, 09:30:06 am »
I know nothing about DCC but agree nothing will get round those outer curves without hitting the 'wall' and derailing.............


Difficult to tell from the photo, but is your trackwork inside a "box" or is that just an optical illusion? If so then your track is a bit close to the sides there, you may get collisions with the woodwork?


Offline Nigel Cliffe

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 09:51:42 am »
The track might fit if it was rotated about 30-45 degrees.  But it might not. 

As for control, I agree with those who say stick with the Kato levers.   However, if you really want to punch numbers into a keypad for turnouts, then you need accessory decoders for Kato motors (there are several on the market which will do that, but check they are suited for Kato motors which are NOT the same as Peco solenoids in some very fundamental ways).   As the cross-over can be worked as a pair of motors (and thus sharing the same output), you're looking for an accessory decoder with four turnout outputs (several options from different makers), or one decoder per turnout (eg. the Digitrax decoder for Kato turnouts).  Off the shelf this will cost around £50-£70 depending on exact choice of decoder.

Were it me, I'd check the running clearances at the sides, then add track feeds and run as is.   If the EZ isn't wanted, then swap it for something else (PowerCab or several alternatives).  Then, later if really wanted, try changing the turnouts to accessory decoders.   

Offline Malc

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 11:35:47 am »
One alternative is to turn the table over and put the track on top and use the space underneath for the wiring and for any accessories you may add in the future.
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Offline daffy

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2018, 01:16:39 pm »
I agree with the above re tight fit and certain ‘wall’ scraping/derailment etc.

If you mount the track on the other side, as per Malc’s suggestion, the same track positions will mean your valuable locos and rolling stock will be perilously close to the edge. Rest assured that falling off the edge of the layout will occur at some point in time.

Would it be possible to slightly increase the overall table size, say by another two inches on either of the ‘tight’ sides?
Mike

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Offline funkyorange

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2018, 01:28:34 pm »


Ah ha! fitting the train around the track. I was so obsessed with fitting a nice layout in the space (and even doing it on the computer) this completly slipped my mind! BTW there is a curve missing from the lower left hand side.

I will try putting it at a angle or perhaps making the curve on the right hand side tighter if possible.

Ok so I will ditch the bus and opt for two power cables...Will this be ok considering there are lots of points..I believe they are all power routing ones?

I have added a picture of the train set in the table so you can see what it looks like and can see how it works, as its hard to describe, its a modified IKEA Liatorp https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/products/tables/coffee-side-tables/liatorp-coffee-table-white-glass-art-50087072/

The train set it going to be monuted on the baseboard - which can be taken out (cut to the same size as the draw - so the draw can be opened when the ineviatble derailments happen!). So I have a option to put the wiring underneath the baseboard or around the track in the Kato pieces.

Yes the kato leavers are cool but there is no access to them easily. My big idea was using a wireless layout with a tablet or phone. But I thought as a first layout it may be too complicated for a newbie like me. So I thought a powercab with a socket you plug into a table would be a good interim solution. Happy for suggestions though! I have seen loads of neat rasberry pie solutions but im reluctent to go into something that adds more complication!

Thanks for all the comments and help :)


« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 01:34:31 pm by funkyorange »

Offline daffy

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2018, 02:40:31 pm »
Your layout limitations are clear now. Thanks.

As you try to adjust the track positioning to fit, try some dry runs with your longest locos and longest carriages or wagons to allow you to see just what clearance you have to prevent any fouling against the drawer sides or indeed against another loco or wagon on the adjacent track.  In your latest photo the two single tracks at front right look too close together.  If for instance you are running long passenger carriages on what are short radius curves you may find the ends of each carriage swing out sufficiently far enough to foul anything on the other track.

Re the points changes: might be a daft idea but the Kato switch units could be mounted on the underside of the drawer base, at the front.
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

Offline Railwaygun

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2018, 03:11:10 pm »
I agree with mounting the points levers outside the box - DCC control is neither  trivial , nor cheap:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=12182.msg131620#msg131620

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=5855.msg65325#msg65325

However I strongly suggest you ditch the Bachmann DCC controller - a Z21(white) would be my cHoice ( wireless control via mobile phone)

Nr
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 11:37:32 pm by Railwaygun »
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Offline Nigel Cliffe

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2018, 03:41:04 pm »
Yes the kato leavers are cool but there is no access to them easily. My big idea was using a wireless layout with a tablet or phone. But I thought as a first layout it may be too complicated for a newbie like me. So I thought a powercab with a socket you plug into a table would be a good interim solution. Happy for suggestions though! I have seen loads of neat rasberry pie solutions but im reluctent to go into something that adds more complication!

OK, but as said earlier, punching numbers into handsets is a horrible way to change turnouts.   

You need some accessory decoders to control the turnouts by anything other than switches.  For tidiness given the design of the coffee table layout, I suggest the little Digitrax single Kato motor decoders (about £12 each).  You'll need one for each turnout. 



The "complications" may not be as complicated as you think, options for a touch screen tablet (rather than a PowerCab) would be:

a - out of the box solution, a Roco Z21 - capital Z, black colour (or if budget constrained, the white z21 will do instead).  That system is designed to talk via an App to Android and Apple devices.  With it, you can photograph the layout and place turnout icons on the photo, prod the icon with a finger and the turnouts change, as well as drive the trains by onscreen throttles. 

b - probably "out of box" would be the Digikeijs device.  In theory it works, but forums suggest a few more issues than Z21.  Is cheaper than Z21. 

c - Piko system (note spelling of Piko).  This is a custom Android device with a control wheel fitted to it.   May be a bit too expensive, even if sought out from shops which split trainset boxes to reduce the price.

d - cheaper.  PiSprog (Raspberry PI with a Sprog board attached to it).  Add to that the JMRI build for a Raspberry PI and you have a system which can be controlled by a phone/tablet App.   Pretty simple if you're into computer-ish things,  or really hard to setup if not.   So, difficult to say how that pans out for any individual person. 

e - really cheap.  Arduino running DCC++ code, interfaced to another device by one of many methods.   Need to be a bit of a computer and DIY electronics nerd to consider this. 



Offline funkyorange

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2018, 07:54:54 pm »



Good point about space daffy. It does seem to fit 45 degrees and there is space between the track.  So I will make sure its arranged liked this when I track it down.

Additional control options sound good im going to have a look at them, the z21 looks like a good bet to start out thanks Nigel and Railwaygun



Offline kerrcophony

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2018, 09:00:20 am »
it's looking good.  IKEA's Liatorp is popular for this sort of project.  See https://www.curbed.com/2011/4/19/10471904/watch-a-revamped-ikea-coffee-table-function-as-a-toy-train-set for a picture and YouTube video of a similar layout.  I've been thinking about doing one myself.
I get a bit delayed in the Waiting Room

Offline zopadooper

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2018, 09:32:24 am »


OK, but as said earlier, punching numbers into handsets is a horrible way to change turnouts.   


I set all my points up to DCC using an NCE Powercab and, yes, punching in numbers is tedious.  I overcame the problem by using DCC Concepts Alpha switch-D system to make a mimic board that overrides the Powercab.  I can now operate my points by buttons on a track plan.  Incidentally, DCC Concepts also make a gizmo for converting standard 3 wire accessory  decoders to 2 wire for Kato points, which works fine.



Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2018, 10:26:23 am »
I set all my points up to DCC using an NCE Powercab and, yes, punching in numbers is tedious.  I overcame the problem by using DCC Concepts Alpha switch-D system to make a mimic board that overrides the Powercab.  I can now operate my points by buttons on a track plan.

An NCE MiniPanel can translate switch inputs into macros which can be as simple as firing an accessory decoder (or more complex of course). I used one of those for a simple stud-n-probe portable panel on my garden line.




Quote
Incidentally, DCC Concepts also make a gizmo for converting standard 3 wire accessory  decoders to 2 wire for Kato points, which works fine.


Yep, I modified my decades old home-built individual CDU design to re-arrange the output terminals so that the little DCC Concepts adapter can be fitted directly into the terminal block, should I wish to use two-wire point motors instead of 3-wire.  Here's a prototype mark 3 CDU at the front (mark 2 behind) with the adapter fitted.


« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 10:29:28 am by ntpntpntp »
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Offline Railwaygun

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Re: IKEA n guage wireing
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2018, 06:35:57 pm »



Good point about space daffy. It does seem to fit 45 degrees and there is space between the track.  So I will make sure its arranged liked this when I track it down.

Additional control options sound good im going to have a look at them, the z21 looks like a good bet to start out thanks Nigel and Railwaygun


see if you can find a Z21 (black) at a good price, as it supports a programming track, and also has variable output voltage ( good for N)

Z21 hints/tips

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=24531.msg260731#msg260731

http://www.z21.co.uk/ (GAugemaster site)

https://www.roco.cc/en/specials/z21/index.html

« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 06:47:05 pm by Railwaygun »
This has been a public service announcement
It may contain alternative facts

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