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Author Topic: Latest Farish release dates  (Read 2181 times)

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Offline PLD

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2018, 07:48:35 pm »
just had a look on Hattons,

http://www.hattons.co.uk/82815/Graham_Farish_374_710A_BR_Mk2A_TSO_Tourist_Second_Open_in_blue_grey/StockDetail.aspx

http://www.hattons.co.uk/61073/Graham_Farish_374_735_Mk2F_TSO_second_open_in_BR_blue_and_grey/StockDetail.aspx

apart from the £10 difference in price, and the fact you can get one now, and the other is available, possibly, sometime in the future, what is the difference ?


For starters, one was assembled 2 years ago when the Chinese assembler was paid about £1 / hour equivalent. The other will be assembled in 2 years time when (due to a combination of wage inflation and currency fluctuations) the Chinese assembler will probably be paid about £4 / hour equivalent...

Offline class37025

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2018, 07:51:45 pm »
ok,
 but for me, like most people, whose wages / pensions haven't / won't have increased by 400%, what is the difference ?
typed by fur box mechanic - dictated by brain on a chain

Offline Roy L S

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2018, 08:28:09 pm »
Some prices don't look excessive, the 8F at £159.95 RRP looks reasonable against comparable models and would discount down to about £134. The sound one at £250 is about par for the course and cheaper than having the job done all in, so discounting by 15% makes it around £215 very reasonable indeed for a sound fitted loco.

My bigger concern is the ridiculous timescales between announcement and release. The 8F Dennis Lovett told me on Saturday is in the toolroom so EPs should not be too far off, he said reckon on somewhere around 9 months between grey plastic and models being ready, but then there is the small matter of production slots I guess..

Personally I would prefer it if manufacturers waited until first EP before making an announcement, in fact I thought in a mag article justifying the price hikes David Haarhus said the practice of announcing models way before even develpment work starts was to cease, but this seems not to be the case.

Finally, on pricing. What Farish are giving us is highly detailed well engineered models and this comes at a cost, previously they have been unrealistically cheap and that is not sustainable for any business. If anyone thinks it is expensive to model British N take a look at continental models!


Roy

Offline acko22

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2018, 09:45:08 pm »

Personally I would prefer it if manufacturers waited until first EP before making an announcement, in fact I thought in a mag article justifying the price hikes David Haarhus said the practice of announcing models way before even develpment work starts was to cease, but this seems not to be the case.


Roy,

I think apart from the pricing which well how ever you look at it will always be a bone of contention (I am one that thinks some of the price rises are a bit high) I think you have hit one of the biggest issues on the head!

I know there is a huge business risk in letting things getting to tooling before making an announcement as the competition may already be onto it and be ahead of you so you input becomes a waste if the competition get theirs out first. But from this list there are 18 models which  are TBA on pricing and going off past history and not just from Farish that to me means they aren't going to appear any time soon!

This has always been one of the biggest issues for N gauge modelers (this has been ongoing debate for years) lots of promise and territorial marking but little in progress or extended time delays (142 anyone), which is annoying to say the least. So while David Haarhus says this practice is to cease the proof in the pudding for Farish and well Dapol (announcing no more than 18 months before due in the shops).
I would rather they surprise us and make us wait less, rather than wait so long I honestly lose interest and my cash goes elsewhere!

On the topic of the 319 I honeslty don"t see that appearing for some years yet annoyingly and my theory is simple:

They are waiting to see how the Revolution 320/321 does if it doesn't look to do well or fails to get the required support (be something that will be produced in more that a couple of runs) then let the 319 quietly die, however if the Revolution 320/321 is a massive hit and people are fighting on ebay for them then the 319 progress will come alive rapidly!




Online njee20

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2018, 09:54:30 pm »
ok,
 but for me, like most people, whose wages / pensions haven't / won't have increased by 400%, what is the difference ?

Your wages arenít relevant one iota...?

But aside from that theyíre two different products, why not throw a Dapol mk3 into the mix too at £21? Itís just an apples/oranges comparison. If you want a mk2D then knowing thereís a 2A for £10 less isnít much help. Knowing I can buy milk cheap isnít that useful if I want cheese!

Offline Ben A

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #50 on: June 20, 2018, 11:03:41 pm »
I did note the other evening how the new Farish EMU's are saying 'poseable pantograph', an improvement over the old but surely not worth the price hike?

I noticed this in the catalogue when it came out and asked them about it - apparently it's an error and the 350s will have the same bought-in and sprung panto.

Maybe it is time for the manufacturers to start offering the models as both ready to run and kit?  This way those who want to save a few pounds can, or you can buy the ready to run and plonk strait on the layout.  It also gives those who have the skills wanting to make there own models a nice choice of models available.  With the news today of Hornby's losses and directors been given million pound golden goodbyes, maybe Farish adjusting the prices is the only way they can survive in the smaller of the two gauges.

Why would they do that?  Apart from being a pain - someone has to write the instructions, new packaging is needed and someone has to pack the kits etc - why would they - in effect - dilute their own sales?

Besides, experience shows that when an RTR model becomes available then kit sales invariably fall off a cliff.

Cheers

Ben A.



Offline class37025

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #51 on: June 20, 2018, 11:51:54 pm »
ok,
 but for me, like most people, whose wages / pensions haven't / won't have increased by 400%, what is the difference ?

Your wages arenít relevant one iota...?

But aside from that theyíre two different products, why not throw a Dapol mk3 into the mix too at £21? Itís just an apples/oranges comparison. If you want a mk2D then knowing thereís a 2A for £10 less isnít much help. Knowing I can buy milk cheap isnít that useful if I want cheese!

sorry, but to a lot of people they are relevant.

we all have bills that have to be paid, and when the items that we would buy with what we have left have massive price hikes, we can buy less because we still have the same to spend.

so sales will fall, and how does that help manufacturers ?
typed by fur box mechanic - dictated by brain on a chain

Offline PLD

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2018, 12:25:07 am »
ok,
 but for me, like most people, whose wages / pensions haven't / won't have increased by 400%, what is the difference ?

Your wages arenít relevant one iota...?

But aside from that theyíre two different products, why not throw a Dapol mk3 into the mix too at £21? Itís just an apples/oranges comparison. If you want a mk2D then knowing thereís a 2A for £10 less isnít much help. Knowing I can buy milk cheap isnít that useful if I want cheese!

sorry, but to a lot of people they are relevant.

we all have bills that have to be paid, and when the items that we would buy with what we have left have massive price hikes, we can buy less because we still have the same to spend.

so sales will fall, and how does that help manufacturers ?
and how does selling a product to you for less than it cost them to make it help them?

Online njee20

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2018, 06:12:57 am »
sorry, but to a lot of people they are relevant.

we all have bills that have to be paid, and when the items that we would buy with what we have left have massive price hikes, we can buy less because we still have the same to spend.

I understand that, thatís indisputable, but why would your lack of pay rises impact the manufacturing costs...? Again, that seems a bit like saying ďI get shipping costs have increased, but Royal Mail stamps havenít, so why the increase?Ē

Offline acko22

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2018, 08:02:18 am »
I understand that, thatís indisputable, but why would your lack of pay rises impact the manufacturing costs...? Again, that seems a bit like saying ďI get shipping costs have increased, but Royal Mail stamps havenít, so why the increase?Ē


I think what @class37025 is saying is that while the money in the market us buyers have isn't going up in real terms its going down how can Farish increase prices above costs so greatly. Which is a fair point Farish could as I say be leading themselves into a tight corner by pricing themselves out of a large portion of the market on certain items.

I did have a look at the industrial price index which give manufacturer figures and between 2016 and this year it shows as there been a real terms increase of 6.8 percent increase (GBP) in costs per year so a 10 pound item last year would be 10.68 and this year 11.40 so over two years its a 10.4 percent increase and for numerous models we are paying around that figure (Colas 66 a good example), but for some items we are seeing it's a massive increase a third or even more.

Looking at this as just models off the release list:

Class 350 in Transpennine 269.95 RRP (more than doubled in price, but as I concede there my be new tooling for the interior)
Class 108 BR Blue 219.95 RRP (More that 60 more expensive)

And for 4 pound less I can get a class 47, Mk2F DBSO, and 2 Mk2F  of which coaches the coaches are new products.

It just strikes me that Farish are hammering certain models in this latest round of releases and I personally would like to see their thinking behind it, when the competition can keep the costs down (Dapol can see you a 68 for less than a Farish 57 which is using tooling which have done numerous).
I would like to hear from Farish their thinking on the pricing especially when you look at the models that have jumped massively on the RRP is it a case of the likes of Hattons has been very nice charging us a lot less than the Farish RRP (ignoring the massively discounted periods).




Offline Izzy

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2018, 08:34:12 am »
While I fully understand that prices will always rise over the long term, and sometimes jump very quickly at times (anyone who lived through the oil crisis of October 73 will know what I mean - rising from 37p a gallon to 73p virtually overnight - it cleared traffic off the roads!), nevertheless I do know that if the kind of prices that will exist in the future relative to my income had done so when I returned to modelling in 2010, then I most probably wouldnít, or at the very least possibly chosen a different path in respect of gauge/scale/ambition.

When you are already committed to a particular path then you do make the best of any situation, which if you have most of what you need isnít so difficult, as is my case and it would seem many others. But these prices will influence what happens in the longer term and the ramifications may not be seen for quite a while.

Izzy





Online njee20

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2018, 09:33:20 am »
I understand that, thatís indisputable, but why would your lack of pay rises impact the manufacturing costs...? Again, that seems a bit like saying ďI get shipping costs have increased, but Royal Mail stamps havenít, so why the increase?Ē


I think what @class37025 is saying is that while the money in the market us buyers have isn't going up in real terms its going down how can Farish increase prices above costs so greatly. Which is a fair point Farish could as I say be leading themselves into a tight corner by pricing themselves out of a large portion of the market on certain items.


I totally agree with you on that, I've commented several times on the price on the 350s since they were announced. Perhaps I simply misunderstood class37025's point - which in the context it was used was around the relative price of the Mk2A versus the forthcoming Mk2E, where the the new one is more expensive than the existing one in part because of wage increases in China.

It will be interesting to see how these things sell, if they ever appear, as there seems to be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth (I include myself in that), but  these things tend to just sell anyway!

Online red_death

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2018, 10:11:21 am »
I posted something early this morning while packing Class B tanks unfortunately it seemed to have disappeared into the ether!

The jist of it is as follows:

For already tooled models that require a reasonable amount of assembly then the cost is inevitably going to rise significantly as Chinese labour costs have risen significantly.

For example if when you tooled something tooling "cost" 50% and assembly 50% and the actual cost of assembly had increased by several years of 20% wage increases then you add the multiplication factor of factory profit (eg Kader), wholesaler profit (eg Bachmann Europe) and retailer profit you can very quickly see that a sustained increase in labour costs has a very significant impact on the final price - that is precisely why you see already tooled Farish models having significant increases in costs (that and also that Bachmann admitted some lines were not profitable and had to re-price them).  It has nothing to do with Bachmann trying to pull a fast one.

For new tooling the manufacturer has a choice to make with lots of separate detail or not as it will have a direct bearing on the assembly costs, but the manufacturer must also juggle the demands of the market price vs detail.

Cheers, Mike



Online njee20

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2018, 10:19:33 am »
That certainly makes sense, I wonder how long before Dapol follow suit; their forthcoming MJA wagons look a veritable bargain at £32 a pair (Hatton's prices), or I wonder if they've been shrewd and gone for more molded detail to offset assembly costs - I'm sure a lot of underframe detail could be molded with little visual detriment.

Offline Fardap

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Re: Latest Farish release dates
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2018, 11:23:58 am »
Hopefully I will spare @Ben A any blushes but he writes an excellent article in the RM Feb 2018 'Talking Point' pg 128 on manufacturing in reference to the Revolution method, it certainly outlines all the processes that form part of the pricing and overheads in developing a model.


 

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