!!

Not Registered?

Welcome!  Please register to view all of the new posts and forum boards - some of which are hidden to guests.  After registering and gaining 10 posts you will be able to sell and buy items on our N'porium.

If you have any problems registering, then please check your spam filter before emailing us.  Hotmail users seem to find their emails in the Junk folder.


Thanks for reading,
The NGF Staff.

Author Topic: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)  (Read 5314 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Leon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27933
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Thistle Fine Art
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #210 on: July 20, 2018, 06:50:01 pm »
Is the 'inner oval' the one I have marked with a white arrow?

If it is the power feed (orange arrow) is not able to supply power because the turnout (very green dot) is set against the route the power feed is on.

One of the good things about Kato 'Unitrack' is that allows for wiring on the surface of the baseboard if that appeals.  No drilling of holes and no wiring below the baseboard!  The wires can be disguised by scenic features.

But if you are intending to drill holes for the wires for power and turnout operation, the 'power unijoiners' become a great choice as you can feed power any place you want that has a track joint.  This reduces the number of fiddly little track pieces that one uses and, therefore, reduces the number of joints.

John, you did well! The inner oval is as you assumed, but I changed the power feed. The feeder was just before the right hand turn. The points were all set for the train to travel that inner oval - through the two double crossovers. The insulators in the double crossover at the top didn't affect running on the outer oval, so I don't understand why there was no power on the inner oval, after I placed the feeder before the right hand point.

Thanks for the input re: drilling vs disguising wires. I'll be looking closely at that alternative.

Leon

Offline Leon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27933
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Thistle Fine Art
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #211 on: July 21, 2018, 01:29:59 am »
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings? Must there be a feeder at the end of each spur? I'll be grateful if someone will enlighten me - and while you're at it, direct me to a good source for basic layout electrical wiring.  Thanks!

I've been running my Prairie Tank, today. It sounds more like a model airplane than a locomotive! It's a Graham Farish 371-981. Please tell me it's OLD. And, does anyone have an opinion as to the relationship of the noise to a need for lubrication!

Leon
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 02:39:16 am by Leon »

Offline keerout

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21976
  • Posts: 499
  • Country: nl
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #212 on: July 21, 2018, 02:15:45 am »
Hi Leon,
Try this: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/
Lots of information, from very simple to Very Complicated, so go slowly....
he also got a splendit book out, works even better (for me) than the web site
Happy modelling!
Gerard

Offline daveg

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 22509
  • Posts: 4768
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #213 on: July 21, 2018, 06:09:34 am »
Can certainly endorse the book recommendation by @keerout.

From another post you asked about installing the station/platform. May I suggest you build your station kit soon? Somehow that being in place adds to the feeling of 'getting somewhere' with the build! It also means you can double check that you have the correct platform width as you run a train through.

Metcalfe kits are pretty good and can be lit if you remember to carefully paint the insides with a dark colour before building. That stops any light bleed. White corners showing at the folds can be hidden by either painting or using a sharp crayon of the correct colour. I use either a tiny brush or watercolour pencil and work very slowly!

HTH.  :)

Look forward to seeing your layout.

Dave G

 

Offline njee20

  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 22598
  • Posts: 3551
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #214 on: July 21, 2018, 06:29:54 am »
Re: feeds, yes you need one in each loop. You can add them to sidings if you want locos to be able to move when the points are set against them. If you’re content with only moving stock when the points are set into the siding you needn’t do anything.

The general wisdom with feeds (or ‘droppers’) is to add as many as possible, particularly on bigger layouts. A lot of people advocate one on each piece of track. I think that’s a bit excessive, but I’d have more than 2. If Unitrack requires the use of a special feeder piece then that’s harder to implement obviously.

Offline Innovationgame

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 26531
  • Posts: 1952
  • Country: gb
    • The innovationgame
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #215 on: July 21, 2018, 06:51:52 am »
I've been running my Prairie Tank, today. It sounds more like a model airplane than a locomotive! It's a Graham Farish 371-981. Please tell me it's OLD. And, does anyone have an opinion as to the relationship of the noise to a need for lubrication!

Leon
If your're running DC, it's almost certainly gear noise.  A (tiny) drop of Dapol oil on the gears, followed by some running in might help.  If you're running DCC the same applies but, before that, consider the decoder.  Some decoders cause quite a loud noise during slow running because of rapid switching.  Essentially a DCC decoders achieves speed reductions by slicing up the power to the motor.  Some decoders are noisier than others.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Online weave

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2229
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #216 on: July 21, 2018, 08:12:25 am »
Hi Leon,

Regarding the sidings, njee20 is right in that the electricity will flow into the siding when switched that way and cut off when switched back to the loop.

Can't remember your track plan but if you had another siding coming off the first siding then you could have another feed just before that point so a loco could reverse out of one and go back down the other without obstructing the loop line.

On mine, which is Kato, at the end of the single siding there is a track feed and a little bit more track which has the track joiners replaced with insulated joiners so that the loco can come in with a train, stop and uncouple.

You then stop the electricity going to that end section with some sort of toggle switch. I haven't got round to that yet so I just pull the wire out of the 3-way power feed near the controller and then you bring another loco in, using the loop power, to take the train out again. Once it's gone, reconnect (or turn toggle switch) and the other loco can move out and wait in the siding for the mainline to clear.

Hope that's not too simple, correct in other's minds (I'm newish too) and makes sense  :worried:

Cheers weave  :beers:
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 08:16:50 am by weave »

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+62)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28972
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #217 on: July 21, 2018, 09:01:10 am »
Hi Leon,
To create dead sections in sidings/loops, especially in a loco shed where you'll want to move one loco without others on the same track moving, I use latchable (not momentary) on/off push button switches which you can locate on a control panel or other handy place. Similar to these but if you have an electrical wholesaler you may find them cheaper..........

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172

Online Train Waiting

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1287
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • The Table-Top Railway.
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #218 on: July 21, 2018, 09:25:05 am »
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings?


Hello Leon

I'm glad you have solved the problem.  I was looking at your track plan to see possible causes but it's great that you have solved it yourself.

The turnouts for Kato 'Unitrack' are power-routing.* That means you do not need a separate feed for each siding.  Set the turnout for the siding and it becomes live.  Set it for the main line and the siding becomes dead.  All very easy.

The reason for more than one feed on a big layout like yours is what is often called 'voltage drop'.  Model railway track, especially with a lot of joins, has a greater resistance than copper wire.  When the train gets further away from the feed, it runs slower.  The solution to this is several track feeds.  Modellers using DCC tend to use lots of feeds for a slightly different reason.  You are on DC so you can have fairly simple wiring.

There can be times when you want a power feed that is only live some of the time.  Lets call these 'switched feeds'.  Our good friend Chris @weave helpfully mentions this.  There are ways to achieve this.  The simplest is a little on/off switch on one of the wires to the power feed (we can discuss which one later).  My Sandrock layout needed two switched feeds which worked in conjunction with the setting of two turnouts.  My expensive solution to give automatic switching was a couple of spare Kato #4 turnouts wired to operate in conjunction with the two relevant turnouts on the layout.  The spare #4 turnouts were wired to act as a simple on/off switch in my case, but could  be wired to direct power to one or other of the circuits if desired.

Hope this helps.

John

* On some Kato turnouts there is a little switch on the underside that switches on or off the power-routing feature.
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

Offline Leon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27933
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Thistle Fine Art
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #219 on: July 21, 2018, 07:02:05 pm »

Dave, thanks for the good advice and endorsement of the book previously recommended. I was leaning toward pausing to build the station, and now I'm certain I'll do that before going forward. I do have some templates to prepare before I lift the temporary track, but I'll build the station and at least one platform before proceeding with the topography. I've a Metcalfe station kit, but my platform kit is Peco. I'll maybe use the Peco kit at Biss River and buy a couple Metcalfe kits for Wiltsbury. I hadn't thought about lighting the station, but will consider painting the inside. When I bought my first Metcalfe kit in Edinburgh, the shop attendant pointed out the need to color the edges so I've already bought watercolor pencils.

Leon

Offline Leon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27933
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Thistle Fine Art
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #220 on: July 21, 2018, 07:04:37 pm »
Re: feeds, yes you need one in each loop. You can add them to sidings if you want locos to be able to move when the points are set against them. If you’re content with only moving stock when the points are set into the siding you needn’t do anything.

The general wisdom with feeds (or ‘droppers’) is to add as many as possible, particularly on bigger layouts. A lot of people advocate one on each piece of track. I think that’s a bit excessive, but I’d have more than 2. If Unitrack requires the use of a special feeder piece then that’s harder to implement obviously.

Njee, thanks so much for the help!

Leon

Offline Leon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27933
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Thistle Fine Art
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #221 on: July 21, 2018, 07:06:44 pm »
Hi Leon,

Regarding the sidings, njee20 is right in that the electricity will flow into the siding when switched that way and cut off when switched back to the loop.

Can't remember your track plan but if you had another siding coming off the first siding then you could have another feed just before that point so a loco could reverse out of one and go back down the other without obstructing the loop line.

On mine, which is Kato, at the end of the single siding there is a track feed and a little bit more track which has the track joiners replaced with insulated joiners so that the loco can come in with a train, stop and uncouple.

You then stop the electricity going to that end section with some sort of toggle switch. I haven't got round to that yet so I just pull the wire out of the 3-way power feed near the controller and then you bring another loco in, using the loop power, to take the train out again. Once it's gone, reconnect (or turn toggle switch) and the other loco can move out and wait in the siding for the mainline to clear.

Hope that's not too simple, correct in other's minds (I'm newish too) and makes sense  :worried:

Cheers weave  :beers:

I don't understand all of the advice, but it's greatly appreciated and I'll be returning to read it again as I go forwarad. Knowledge is cumulative, so I'll understand it as I learn more.

Leon

Offline port perran

  • Larger Gallery
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8673
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #222 on: July 21, 2018, 07:18:19 pm »
Leon.
Apologies but I stay out of posting re electrics.
Others are MUCH more knowledgeable on that black art than me.
I go for the blindingly simple and it works so hope you manage to make it happen for you.
Good luck with the build.
Martin
It's you railway so build it as you want and run whatever you like. The only rule is - ENJOY :
My Layouts -
Port Perran:- Trepol Bay:-

Offline Leon

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 27933
  • Posts: 234
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Thistle Fine Art
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #223 on: July 21, 2018, 07:19:56 pm »
If your're running DC, it's almost certainly gear noise.  A (tiny) drop of Dapol oil on the gears, followed by some running in might help.  If you're running DCC the same applies but, before that, consider the decoder.  Some decoders cause quite a loud noise during slow running because of rapid switching.  Essentially a DCC decoders achieves speed reductions by slicing up the power to the motor.  Some decoders are noisier than others.

Laurence, I'm putting the locomotives away for another day, but will try lubricating the Prairie when I bring it out the next time. Thanks for reinforcing an assumption. It's logical that the gears will dry out when a loco isn't run, and this one probably hasn't run in years. It looks great, and performs well, but sounds like a plane taking off when accelerating. Reading your thread, and many others, it's obvious that model railway manufacturers have achieved more with their exterior design and detail than with the mechanics. There could also be an issue with their quality control. My Prairie is only one of five that have some kind of mechanical problem. The sixth, the Earl of Dunraven is the only one that has run to my expectations. Therefore, I may be finished with buying from the secondary market. I'd rather pay Hatton's an extra 35-40% with the knowledge that I'll be getting value and/or the option to return the purchase. And, I'll not be buying many more.

Leon

Offline dannyboy

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 25492
  • Posts: 2454
  • Country: ie
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
« Reply #224 on: July 21, 2018, 07:23:03 pm »
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! So,

Loosely translated, that means you are just like the rest of us! ;D

my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points.

The Kato crossover does need a feed on either side of the crossing, on each track. They do not need to be right next to the crossover, but they do need to be between the crossover and the next point on the line.

Bob Fifer shows exactly what I mean on one of his videos.  :thumbsup:
David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.

 

Please Support Us!
August Goal: £65.00
Due Date: Aug 31
Total Receipts: £67.50
Above Goal: £2.50
Site Currency: GBP
104% 
August Donations


Advertise Here