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Author Topic: this has probably been asked before  (Read 542 times)

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Offline tgv_obsessed

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this has probably been asked before
« on: March 18, 2018, 03:00:14 am »
But i've been searching the google, and just get pages and pages of not the answer to this:

If i'm looking at the leeds - manchester railway, which is the Up line?

Or any other railway in england that doesn't end in london?
running in is so you get used to the noise, oops, to bed the gears down properly

Offline Bealman

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2018, 03:46:41 am »
Good question. I dunno  :hmmm: :hmmm:
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Offline daffy

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2018, 07:09:00 am »
This article has a good starting point for this query, though it doesn't get to totally clarify what you ask:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_directions
 
Some clarity here

http://railway-technical.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/why-up-and-down.html

But as far as I can tell much seems to be down to local factors and historical conventions and ownership stemming back to the building of the line.

But I'm sure this thread will have many more views afore long.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 07:18:02 am by daffy »
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Offline PLD

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2018, 07:42:13 am »
But i've been searching the google, and just get pages and pages of not the answer to this:

If i'm looking at the leeds - manchester railway, which is the Up line?
For the Hull - Manchester (via Leeds) Trans-pennine services, Hull to Manchester is classified as "UP".

Or any other railway in england that doesn't end in london?
Except the Midland Main line where up to some time in early BR days, "UP" meant towards Derby, so to St Pancras was "DOWN"...

Online edwin_m

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2018, 10:50:05 am »
Except the Midland Main line where up to some time in early BR days, "UP" meant towards Derby, so to St Pancras was "DOWN"...
This is commonly quoted on forums but I have serious doubts about how true it is - if you have any evidence I'd be interested to see it. 

https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=626
Here for example is a box diagram for Bedford South in 1903, with lines towards London being designated as Up. 

Confusion may have been caused by the fact that the Midland was "Up" all the way from Bristol to Derby, but I'm pretty sure Derby to St Pancras was "Up".  Derby itself possibly switched "Up" and "Down" at some stage, as trains to London originally left northwards. 

Of the other main non-London companies, as far as I can tell
- the Caledonian was "Up" to Carlisle (Beattock https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=276)
- the North British was "Up" to Carlisle (Riccarton North https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=515)
- the North Eastern was headquartered in York which was nearly at their southern extremity anyway, and I can't see any diagrams on that site from places further south. 
- The Great Central London Extension was Up to London (Nottingham Victoria East 1900 https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E420.gif)

Some of these diagrams post-date the Grouping but I think it's unlikely Up and Down would have been switched, as this would involve changing all sorts of drawings and risking staff confusion for no obvious benefit.

So it appears the Lancashire and Yorkshire was the only major non-London company to have Down away from its headquarters at Manchester (Victoria) including its line towards Leeds (via Todmorden).  The principal route to Leeds via Huddersfield was LNWR east of Stalybridge, but the LNWR had running powers over the L&Y from Mancester to Stalybridge.  From there "Down" would have been towards Leeds as a continuation both of the L&Y route and of the LNWR's own track from Stockport.  (Marsden https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1104).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 10:52:24 am by edwin_m »

Offline tgv_obsessed

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 12:45:11 pm »


So it appears the Lancashire and Yorkshire was the only major non-London company to have Down away from its headquarters at Manchester (Victoria) including its line towards Leeds (via Todmorden).  (Marsden https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1104).

so except the Manchester Liverpool train (and maybe some others), up and down has something to do with where the railway company was based? As in gong up and back down again? It wasn't going 'up to London' because London is big and important?
running in is so you get used to the noise, oops, to bed the gears down properly

Online Buzzard

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 01:04:30 pm »
Confusion may have been caused by the fact that the Midland was "Up" all the way from Bristol to Derby, but I'm pretty sure Derby to St Pancras was "Up".  Derby itself possibly switched "Up" and "Down" at some stage, as trains to London originally left northwards. 

Hmm interesting as some Bradford Barton mileage books I've got quote both Bristol to Derby and Derby to St Pancras as Down.

Online edwin_m

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 07:03:25 pm »


So it appears the Lancashire and Yorkshire was the only major non-London company to have Down away from its headquarters at Manchester (Victoria) including its line towards Leeds (via Todmorden).  (Marsden https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=1104).

so except the Manchester Liverpool train (and maybe some others), up and down has something to do with where the railway company was based? As in gong up and back down again? It wasn't going 'up to London' because London is big and important?

No, I think different companies did their own thing.  The companies that weren't based in London seem mostly to have designated "up" as towards London.  The Lancashire and Yorkshire, running mostly east-west, didn't really have a "towards London" and chose to have "up" being to Manchester.  So Liverpool to Manchester and Leeds to Manchester are both "up". 

Online edwin_m

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2018, 07:08:14 pm »
Hmm interesting as some Bradford Barton mileage books I've got quote both Bristol to Derby and Derby to St Pancras as Down.

Is there a date on this information?  I know the Midland changed all its mileposts in the first decade of the 20th century to start from St Pancras (grossly simplifying, for details see http://midlandrailway.org.uk/occasional-papers/midland-mile-posts/) but I don't know if it also revised "up" and "down". 

Incidentally "down" is usually the direction of ascending mileage, but not always.  Two major exceptions, from either end of the great age of railway building, are the Liverpool and Manchester and the Great Central London Extension. 

Offline PLD

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 08:53:24 pm »
Except the Midland Main line where up to some time in early BR days, "UP" meant towards Derby, so to St Pancras was "DOWN"...

This is commonly quoted on forums but I have serious doubts about how true it is - if you have any evidence I'd be interested to see it. 

https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=626
Here for example is a box diagram for Bedford South in 1903, with lines towards London being designated as Up.

There are a number of reasonably reliable sources:

How about the KWVR? http://kwvr.co.uk/trains-and-the-railway/branch-profile/
"The “up” direction on lines of the former Midland Railway is towards Derby,"

Or a source of equal reliability to a diagram drawn 82 years after the fact which could very easily have made an erroneous assumption... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_directions

Online Buzzard

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2018, 09:31:22 pm »
Hmm interesting as some Bradford Barton mileage books I've got quote both Bristol to Derby and Derby to St Pancras as Down.
Is there a date on this information?

Have just bashed the ISBN number into Google and got a publication date of 1981.

Checked the data for Table 53 again and it is MP 0 at St Pancras and Up to Sheffield regardless of any of the three routes that can be taken after Trent Jn.

Non of the text accompanying Table 53 sheds any light as to why the line is designated Up from London.

Online edwin_m

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 07:46:58 am »
Hmm interesting as some Bradford Barton mileage books I've got quote both Bristol to Derby and Derby to St Pancras as Down.
Is there a date on this information?

Have just bashed the ISBN number into Google and got a publication date of 1981.

Checked the data for Table 53 again and it is MP 0 at St Pancras and Up to Sheffield regardless of any of the three routes that can be taken after Trent Jn.

Non of the text accompanying Table 53 sheds any light as to why the line is designated Up from London.
I was meaning the date of the information not the date of publication - is it intended to be current at 1981 or some historic date?

It's certainly Down from St Pancras today and even if the Midland reversed directions at some stage I can't see BR doing this after 1981 due to the cost involved. 

Online edwin_m

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 07:54:32 am »
Except the Midland Main line where up to some time in early BR days, "UP" meant towards Derby, so to St Pancras was "DOWN"...

This is commonly quoted on forums but I have serious doubts about how true it is - if you have any evidence I'd be interested to see it. 

https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=626
Here for example is a box diagram for Bedford South in 1903, with lines towards London being designated as Up.

There are a number of reasonably reliable sources:

How about the KWVR? http://kwvr.co.uk/trains-and-the-railway/branch-profile/
"The “up” direction on lines of the former Midland Railway is towards Derby,"

Or a source of equal reliability to a diagram drawn 82 years after the fact which could very easily have made an erroneous assumption... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_directions

Up was certainly towards Derby in the area of the KWVR, but that would also be towards London.  Neither the KWVR nor the Wikipedia link cites any source, and my concern is they could just be echoing erroneous information off each other. 

There are numerous other signal box diagrams on the same site, of various dates, I've checked several off the Midland main line and they are all "up to London".  For example the other Bedford ones, Napsbury and Kettering North.  These are drawn up by a former signalman and I would trust him over an uncited internet source. 

https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?selectpg=Midland+Railway&viewpg=Go%21

Online Buzzard

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Re: this has probably been asked before
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 08:40:36 am »
is it intended to be current at 1981 or some historic date?

Sorry I don't know as none of the series of 10 mileage books, all published in 1981, that cover the entire country make mention of a date when the information was accurate.

 

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