!!

Not Registered?

Welcome!  Please register to view all of the new posts and forum boards - some of which are hidden to guests.  After registering and gaining 10 posts you will be able to sell and buy items on our N'porium.

If you have any problems registering, then please check your spam filter before emailing us.  Hotmail users seem to find their emails in the Junk folder.


Thanks for reading,
The NGF Staff.

Author Topic: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963  (Read 1448 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline EtchedPixels

  • Advertiser
  • Trade Count: (+44)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 16353
  • 2mm Association Number: 4412
  • Posts: 8246
  • Country: wales
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Google+
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • Etched Pixels
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2018, 02:45:42 pm »
There were some quite strange milk workings - including a single 71/74 or similar running one wagon to Vauxhall

The train length varied hugely between loaded and unloaded wagons. Loaded wagons were not only very heavy but the milk in them as with all liquids could move. That's one reason most milk wagons were six wheelers as the four wheel ones had too many unfortunate incidents.

For GWR branches at least it's correct (prior to some point in 1959) to run an autocoach with a single milk tank on the non driving end of the formation). After that they banned six wheelers on passenger trains which ended that milk formation, and also led to the scrapping and downgrading of a lot of (often quite modern) four and six wheel passnger rated parcels wagons.
"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline Karhedron

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19444
  • Posts: 2184
  • Country: 00
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2018, 02:55:44 pm »
For GWR branches at least it's correct (prior to some point in 1959) to run an autocoach with a single milk tank on the non driving end of the formation). After that they banned six wheelers on passenger trains which ended that milk formation, and also led to the scrapping and downgrading of a lot of (often quite modern) four and six wheel passnger rated parcels wagons.


I believe it was up to 2 tankers behind an autotrain. I have seen pictures of the Saltash - Plymouth autotrain with a pair of tankers behind it.

Are you sure it was as early as 1959 that mixed trains were banned? The Hemyock branch was still running mixed trains in the early 60s (although it was probably one of its last refuges). http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/the-hemyock-branch.html

Also the Plymouth-Saltash service continued to convey milk tankers even after dieselisation. I have seen a photo (sadly not online) of a pair of class 122 bubble cars crossing the Tamar with a pair of tankers from Saltash in tow.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline EtchedPixels

  • Advertiser
  • Trade Count: (+44)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 16353
  • 2mm Association Number: 4412
  • Posts: 8246
  • Country: wales
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Google+
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • Etched Pixels
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2018, 02:58:11 pm »
1959 was when the change was made. There were special dispensations that lasted longer in specific cases (like Hemyock where the ruling speed is something like 15mph)

"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Online red_death

  • Revolution Trains
  • Advertiser
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2412
  • Country: gb
  • NGS Product Development Officer
    • DEMU - the society for Diesel & Electric modellers of all scales
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2018, 04:02:34 pm »
This may be an odd question but could this be a possibility for RevolutioN to work with Dapol on a set? Get Mercig to heavily weather a set of 6 tankers based on colour photos and then get them mass produced. The weathering on the silver bullets shows the sort of filthy finish that is achievable.

Hi Matt

I wouldn't say it was out of the question, but it is much better directed to Dapol (probably to Joel or via their Digest site) to see if they will do it first.

Cheers, Mike



Offline NeMo

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23720
  • Posts: 2362
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2018, 05:19:35 pm »
1959 was when the change was made. There were special dispensations that lasted longer in specific cases (like Hemyock where the ruling speed is something like 15mph)

Hang on a second...

Wasn't milk traffic considered passenger traffic* rather than freight anyway, in which case the train wasn't a 'mixed' train by BR standards?

Certainly there were individual freight vans stuck on the back of DMUs in the Eastern Region well into the 1970s, and I believe things like fish vans were included in some Scottish Region passenger trains too.

Cheers, NeMo

*Or at least non-passenger carrying coaching stock?

Offline EtchedPixels

  • Advertiser
  • Trade Count: (+44)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 16353
  • 2mm Association Number: 4412
  • Posts: 8246
  • Country: wales
  • Gender: Male
    • Ebay
    • Google+
    • Twitter
    • YouTube
    • Etched Pixels
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2018, 05:40:55 pm »
Fish vans, milk and horseboxes were usually classed as XP so allowed as part of a passenger train (and they were braked appropriately too). After 1959 specific permission was required when mixing 4 or 6 wheel XP rated stock with a passenger train.

There are many levels of rules (and this is a simplification)
- Overall rules
- Various regional and route specific rules
- The exceptions to it signed off by appropriate senior people for that region
- The things that nobody in HQ needed to know about


Mixed trains actually lasted much longer than people think and included the FJB container flat that ran in Scotland well into the 1980s as part of the traffic on the far north lines.


"Knowledge has no value or use for the solitary owner: to be enjoyed it must be communicated" -- Charles Pratt, 1st Earl Camden

Offline JonHarbour

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 18965
  • 2mm Association Number: 4667
  • Posts: 380
  • Country: au
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2018, 10:13:18 pm »
This may be an odd question but could this be a possibility for RevolutioN to work with Dapol on a set? Get Mercig to heavily weather a set of 6 tankers based on colour photos and then get them mass produced. The weathering on the silver bullets shows the sort of filthy finish that is achievable.

Hi Matt

I wouldn't say it was out of the question, but it is much better directed to Dapol (probably to Joel or via their Digest site) to see if they will do it first.

Cheers, Mike

I posted something on the Dapol digest forum to this effect in early December 2017. It's still the last post on that particular thread...
Still planning a layout...

Offline ten0G

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2018, 01:41:04 pm »

To be fair, I deliberately chose some particularly dirty examples for that photo. Have a look at the photo of Chard below. The tankers near the front are not much dirtier than the Dapol ones from the class 22 set.



Thanks, Karhedron. 

The front two tankers are not only different styles, but appear to have dairy names at opposite ends of the barrels.  Does anyone know if there was any convention regarding this please?

When I acquired my silvered weathered tankers, initially I thought all I needed to do was change "Unigate Creameries" to "United Dairies," but now wonder if the righthanded version only appeared after Unigate had been formed, a bit later than the period I want to model. 

I think the Dapol weathering is about right in my view, and I'm sure most people could add more weathering themselves if they wanted to. 

A set of silver lightly(?)-weathered "Express Dairies" tankers would be welcome as well, I'm not sure about the blue background instead of black though.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2018, 03:35:32 pm by ten0G »

Offline Karhedron

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19444
  • Posts: 2184
  • Country: 00
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2018, 08:54:43 pm »
There were a lot of different designs of milk tankers, often varying by region. The Dapol design is a hybrid of various features so is not accurate for any particular vehicle. The best advice I can give on owner plate positioning is to have a browse through Paul Bartlett's collection. Even after tankers left the milk pool and entered other uses, they usually retained this plate so you can see for yourself.

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srmilk

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrmilktanks
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline ten0G

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2018, 10:19:50 am »
The Dapol design is a hybrid of various features so is not accurate for any particular vehicle.

To my untrained eye, there is a very Swindon-like look to the earlier version without the catwalk! 

Of course, I have no dimensions to go by, just my memory of a GW-themed book I read in the mid-eighties.  The title eludes me and I admit it may not have been completely accurate but it did mention axle tiebar profile and absence of catwalks IIRC.  There may have been a drawing showing the main dimensions. 

The best advice I can give on owner plate positioning is to have a browse through Paul Bartlett's collection. Even after tankers left the milk pool and entered other uses, they usually retained this plate so you can see for yourself.

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srmilk

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbrmilktanks

Thanks.  I have found no conclusive evidence from these sources regards this topic but there are still many more to look at. :goggleeyes:   However, I have seen enough photos to support my comments above - so far. :hmmm:

Any guesses as to whether tankers from different BR regions would have been in use at a creamery together in pre-Unigate days?  My thoughts are  probably not, but again I stand to be corrected. 

Offline Karhedron

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19444
  • Posts: 2184
  • Country: 00
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2018, 10:33:20 am »
Any guesses as to whether tankers from different BR regions would have been in use at a creamery together in pre-Unigate days?  My thoughts are  probably not, but again I stand to be corrected. 

Pre-Unigate, Yes.
Pre-WW2, No

Milk tankers were pooled by the MMB in 1942 and it was at this time the fixed rakes of single-pattern, single livery tankers started to get broken up. If you are modelling anything after WW2 then it tends to become pretty much "anything goes" in terms of what diagrams you could find in a train. The shot below was taken in 1957 (2 years before the formation of Unigate) and you can see that tankers #1 and #3 and fifferent diagrams from #2 and #4-6.

Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline ten0G

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2018, 05:22:35 pm »
Milk tankers were pooled by the MMB in 1942 and it was at this time the fixed rakes of single-pattern, single livery tankers started to get broken up. If you are modelling anything after WW2 then it tends to become pretty much "anything goes" in terms of what diagrams you could find in a train. The shot below was taken in 1957 (2 years before the formation of Unigate) and you can see that tankers #1 and #3 and fifferent diagrams from #2 and #4-6.



Thanks, that gives a bit more scope. 

The photo is very informative, a shame I can't see any owner's plates.  I wonder which creamery they were from and where their destination was.  :hmmm:


Online port perran

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8337
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2018, 05:28:31 pm »
Milk tankers were pooled by the MMB in 1942 and it was at this time the fixed rakes of single-pattern, single livery tankers started to get broken up. If you are modelling anything after WW2 then it tends to become pretty much "anything goes" in terms of what diagrams you could find in a train. The shot below was taken in 1957 (2 years before the formation of Unigate) and you can see that tankers #1 and #3 and fifferent diagrams from #2 and #4-6.



Thanks, that gives a bit more scope. 

The photo is very informative, a shame I can't see any owner's plates.  I wonder which creamery they were from and where their destination was.  :hmmm:
What an interesting photo. Tube stock, two pillboxes , barrage baloon. Presumably outskirts of London. Could it be milk empties returning to Devon or Cornwall?
It's you railway so build it as you want and run whatever you like. The only rule is - ENJOY :
My Layouts -
Port Perran:- Trepol Bay:-

Offline Karhedron

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 19444
  • Posts: 2184
  • Country: 00
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2018, 09:39:58 pm »
Milk tankers were pooled by the MMB in 1942 and it was at this time the fixed rakes of single-pattern, single livery tankers started to get broken up. If you are modelling anything after WW2 then it tends to become pretty much "anything goes" in terms of what diagrams you could find in a train. The shot below was taken in 1957 (2 years before the formation of Unigate) and you can see that tankers #1 and #3 and fifferent diagrams from #2 and #4-6.



Thanks, that gives a bit more scope. 

The photo is very informative, a shame I can't see any owner's plates.  I wonder which creamery they were from and where their destination was.  :hmmm:
What an interesting photo. Tube stock, two pillboxes , barrage baloon. Presumably outskirts of London. Could it be milk empties returning to Devon or Cornwall?

It is the down milk empties which started at Wood Green (United Dairies). The photo was taken near Wormwood scrubs less than a mile away. Without the WTTI would hazard a guess it would have picked up more empties and Mitre Bridge Junction and/or West Ealing before heading out into the country. Wood Green was one of the largest (but also most poorly photographed) bottling plants in London. The main office was still there and named Unigate House up until recently. I think it burned down a couple of years ago. :(
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline ten0G

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 211
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Express Dairy tanker livery 1963
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2018, 03:56:54 pm »
Thanks, Karhedron. 

A pity that unpainted milk tankers are not available. 

 

Please Support Us!
June Goal: £55.00
Due Date: Jun 30
Total Receipts: £60.00
Above Goal: £5.00
Site Currency: GBP
109% 
June Donations


Advertise Here
anything