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Author Topic: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach  (Read 1693 times)

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Offline DavidE257

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2018, 06:34:58 pm »
Roy L S - yes, the announcing of the Bulleids as being ''in abeyance" is very much a 'towels on the sun-loungers' move! Doubly disappointing, especially after they were in the catalogue for sooooo long!

I'm not 100% sure the comments of the NGS journal are just to encourage debate, he seems to genuinely believe them, there have been others in a similar vein in the last couple of years.

The other issue that seems to get him worked up is if you suggest in any way that N Gauge models shouldn't be the highest possible 'fidelity' and 100% authentic. I think the drive for microscopic detail is definitely one of the reasons why the major manufacturers seem to be struggling in this time of difficult trading conditions.

For instance I was in a shop last week looking at the GF Merchant Navy, and there were two versions - one in 'Southern' livery and one in BR Green. The Southern engine had a partial valence at the front which covers the front of the cylinders, so they must have made a different body tooling and a different cylinder tooling.

Was all that expense and effort really worth it? No wonder the cost of production/retail price is so high! I gather as well that there are differences to models such as the Dapol panniers, which have different whistle covers for different running numbers/liveries apparently. All very commendable, but commercially...

The acid test for me in N Gauge is still the PECO Jubilee - as in, is a new model as good as the PECO Jubilee? If it isn't then it isn't good enough in terms of level of detail or running qualities. Certainly the current GF and Dapol models are better in terms of detail (some of the early Chinese GF and Poole ones weren't) but what of the running qualities? The Union Mills models aren't quite as good on detail, but they run very well, so are passable to me.

I would have thought that in this era of CAD/CAM design and CNC machining that it would be relatively easy to produce a range of tender driven locos equal to or better than the Jubilee with 6-wheeled tenders, which is what most British types have, at a much lower cost than current models.

I don't really see the need to have a ground-up new design of motorised chassis for every prototype, which Dapol seem to do, and you could standardise things like the driving wheels of a given size across several prototypes without losing too much authenticity I would have thought.

Offline Roy L S

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2018, 08:07:54 pm »
Hi David

Well I do have to own up to being in the wanting it as accurate as possible brigade and actually think this is what had driven growth pf British N as a credible alternative to 00. I would certainly expect see through spokes (and correct wheels for a specific loco), correct wheelbase, separate handrails, underframe detail and variant specific detail differences but I do agree that these tooling complexities come at a cost.

I would also add that the peerless performance of the new generation of coreless motor chassis still blows me away BUT a great example of the approach you suggest is the reuse of the excellent Farish B1 tender drive with the exquisite J39 model, in fact if I recall correctly it is this that made the J39 viable in the first place. I am sure that there must be several other locos that tender drive could power (K3 and a decent V2 for just two).

I am not a huge fan of Dapol steam locos, I am not a fan of the cardan drive approach and  find their mechanisms somewhat agricultural by comparison to Farish, plus, in the early days extremely cheap and nasty.

For a long time the Peco Jubilee was untouchable, easily the best in British N and arguably held this mantle until the Farish Jubilee came along. I still have two, both repainted into BR Green by Fred Hempsall, they still look very good and were certainly way ahead of their time when released in 1969. There are well designed and strong reliable runners, but do have their flaws, in particular wear to the tender chassis block. I can understand why you would choose to use them as a benchmark given your preferences, but I guess mine for now remains the simply exquisite Farish Ivatt 2MT, that really is where the state of the art is right now, two of mine are even sound fitted - quite incredible.

Lastly, please don't for a second think I am knocking other people's preferences, Union Mills in particular has made a great success of affordable models using a generic tender drive that are solid, reliable and quite reasonable if limited in detail representations of the real thing. I still have five or six including a J38 which is chipped and has had a few bits of detailing work done. It looks a bit basic next to the Farish J39 but I am more than happy to run it on my layout. Horses for courses I think?

All the best.

Roy

Offline CliveH

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2018, 07:48:25 am »
King Arthurs and the like just a smidge too early for me. I was set to buy every late crest BB/WC that Dapol produced (and a few more just to get late crest tenders behind the others), so I'd certainly give crowdfunding those some serious thought.  My money's on Dapol, having dropped the model with the slightly odd explanation that they don't have the engineering competence to make the chassis work, never returning to it. But what do I know?

Cheers

Offline Atso

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2018, 09:08:28 am »
Surprising, a good quality model of a King Arthur would be of interest to me. Sir Brian was tested on the ECML in 1928 along with two 'River' class tanks following the Sevenoaks accident and (I believe) ran between Kings Cross and Potters Bar for several weeks. I believe that this was before the 'Arthur's' received smoke deflectors though - yet another tooling variation in what is quite a complex class of locomotives?

The location of the union link/combination lever, right over the bottom of the crosshead and running parallel (and over the top of) the bottom slide bar, could prove interesting to get clearances in N gauge. I can't think of another locomotive off the top of my head where the union link was placed this high.

Offline MinZaPint

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2018, 11:11:08 am »
Another vote for an Arthur/S15 and like several others here I am very disappointed with Dapol's decision on the WC/BoB  :(
Cogito Sumere potum alterum

Offline CarriageShed

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2018, 01:24:44 pm »
...I believe that this was before the 'Arthur's' received smoke deflectors though - yet another tooling variation in what is quite a complex class of locomotives?

That would have been right on the cusp of smoke deflectors being fitted. The N15s were the first SR class to get them, with the rest following on from a couple of years later.

With me modelling 1929/30, the N15 with the deflectors is okay, but if my Dapol Schools hadn't been returned, that would have lost its deflectors. No extra tooling needed for that. They either unclip or could be easily removed in a more permanent fashion.

Offline DavidE257

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2018, 07:58:36 pm »
Roy - for me the 'state of the art' is Dapol Q1, which to me looks more authentic than the 'OO' Hornby version! It's a shame Dapol are so variable in quality control terms, I bought an Ivatt 2-6-2 from Hattons that was terrible, it just didn't work properly - it couldn't negotiate a single set of points, and went straight back.

They are capable of some howlers on the engineering front as well, the top speed of the M7 is hilarious! many a Scalextric car would love to go that fast, little wonder they're so iffy at low speed, the gear ratios are completely wrong.

I definitely agree that the authenticity of the new generation of models is encouraging people to take up 'N', the rather toy-like qualities of some of the Poole GF models was rather off-putting to many.

Let's hope the 'majors' can weather the storm and the rise in brings a few things like the Bulleids to fruition!


Offline Bob G

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2018, 11:16:17 am »
Another vote for an Arthur/S15 and like several others here I am very disappointed with Dapol's decision on the WC/BoB  :(
And another vote, for any SR 4-6-0 really....

Offline JimSan

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2018, 11:10:07 pm »
Will use my first post on these forums to add in, wouldn't mind a Southern 4-6-0 as well or anything Southern in general really (more than what we've got already), currently looking into getting stuff made via 3D printing if can find the models or commission someone to do them in the mean time with the lack of RTR Southern engines.

Offline CarriageShed

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2018, 09:28:24 am »
Will use my first post on these forums to add in, wouldn't mind a Southern 4-6-0 as well or anything Southern in general really (more than what we've got already), currently looking into getting stuff made via 3D printing if can find the models or commission someone to do them in the mean time with the lack of RTR Southern engines.

With a bit of kit-building or hacking, you can already build up quite a collection of SR locos.

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2018, 10:25:40 am »
the lack of RTR Southern engines.


@JimSan
Off the top of my head there are the:-
3MT 2-6-2T
4MT 2-6-4T
4MT 2-6-0 tender loco
N Class 2-6-0
C Class 0-6-0 tender loco (forthcoming)
5MT 4-6-0
MN 4-6-2
Schools 4-4-0
Q1 0-6-0 tender loco
Ivatt 2-6-2T

More would be nice, though.
Welcome to the forum BTW :wave:

Offline CarriageShed

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2018, 11:22:17 am »
Plus there are white metal kits and RTRs for:

Urie Class N15 4-6-0 (BH Enterprises kit)
Urie Class S15 4-6-0 (Langley Models kit)
Drummond Class T9 4-4-0 (Union Mills RTR)
Wainwright Class L 4-4-0 (N Brass Loco etched kit)
Maunsell Class L1 4-4-0 (Graham Hughes kit, available secondhand)
Drummond Class 700 0-6-0 (Union Mills RTR)
Adams Class 0395 (Union Mills RTR)
Wainwright Class C 0-6-0 (N Brass Loco etched kit)
Maunsell Class Z 0-8-0T (GEM kit, availability new uncertain, secondhand still possible)
Billinton Class E5 0-6-2T (Langley Models kit)
Billinton Class E2 0-6-0T (Langley Models kit)
Adams Class G6 0-6-0T (N Brass Loco etched kit)
Adams Class B4 0-4-0T (Peco-Wills kit, available secondhand)

And there are a few hacks that I know of:

Remembrance Class L 4-6-4T (Del Prado body on a Poole Graham Farish Black 5 chassis)
Dapol Terrier converted to LSWR No 735 (parts from N Brass Loco)
Drummond Class K10 4-4-0 (Union Mills T9, with parts from N Brass Loco)
Drummond Class L11 4-4-0 (Union Mills T9, with parts from N Brass Loco)

That's not a bad list of options...

Offline JimSan

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2018, 12:06:34 pm »
the lack of RTR Southern engines.

@JimSan
Off the top of my head there are the:-
-snip-
More would be nice, though.
Welcome to the forum BTW :wave:

Have got bout half of those already, and some others lined up when I've got the money and space for them heh, also cheers for the welcome.

Maunsell Class Z 0-8-0T (GEM kit, availability new uncertain, secondhand still possible)

This was one which I was considering getting someone to 3D print for me, as was trying to find the website again to check the price only to find that they've closed for now and not had much luck finding the kit elsewhere. Though with that list of kits, will give me more to get round to cobbling together when I've got the time heh.

Offline joe cassidy

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2018, 12:12:01 pm »
Don't forget the Dapol M7 !

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Crowd funding a BR (SR) King Arthur /S15 class or Bulleid BCK coach
« Reply #29 on: April 26, 2018, 12:13:35 pm »
the lack of RTR Southern engines.

@JimSan
Off the top of my head there are the:-
-snip-
More would be nice, though.
Welcome to the forum BTW :wave:

Have got bout half of those already, and some others lined up when I've got the money and space for them heh, also cheers for the welcome.



I model on an Oxford area based layout and have all the ones I listed (except for the C class but that will be rectified when it emerges) as I can justify them all appearing in the vicinity but I really, really do want the BoB spam can (and maybe a rebuilt one too)

Thanks Joe. I forgot that one as I haven't got one. That really is pushing it for Oxfordshire!!

 

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