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Author Topic: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR  (Read 3024 times)

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Offline The Q

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2017, 08:13:23 am »
B & Q also do a 'Silver Surfer' Wednesday each week whereby those over 60 get 10% discount.
Let's face it, age has to have some benefit, eh? :D
I wouldn't describe my coiffure as silver, though, more 'egg in a nest' :-[

Please stop reminding me I have just 4 months to go till qualifying for their discount card, I still have the feeling they'll push the age limit up before I get there though...

 Any of the DIY sheds timber will warp, and come to that their dominance has forced many timber merchants to go the way of cheaper timber. Only if you go to a specialist timber merchant such as one that supplies boat builders can you be more assured of quality timber, but that Costs....

John suggestion of a MDF sub-board is good ... IF,
 Your area has low humidity or 100% warm and dry (in a house) as both MDF and Sundela soak up water from the atmosphere unless 100% painted all over.
 You are 100% sure you'll never have to move the layout.

 I have got an inherited layout, made of Sundela type board, including multiple layers for hills sides  ??? and two layers of 2X1 for side bracing (An attempt to stop warping?) plus bracing under the Sundela every 1 ft apart. Now that is a heavy layout, that was never meant to move, Unfortunately it has some 500 miles!!! :'(

As you can guess I'm not a fan of Sundela, but you are committed now so there is no point discussing alternatives...
 
 I hope your construction goes well. :)


Offline PeteW

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2017, 03:44:05 pm »
Donning my woodworker's hat, a couple of observations regarding materials and warping.

* Although ply and MDF are fairly resistant to warping, any wood-based material will warp if subject to unequal moisture absorption - typically where one side is exposed to the air and the other isn't. So for any baseboard where the top is covered with cork, foam, plaster and other stuff, you can massively reduce the tendency to warp by coating the underside (and exposed edges) with varnish, paint, or similar.

* I guess many people find MDF convenient because it is stable and easy to buy. But as soon as you cut it you open up those edges to moisture absorption. MDF is also useless in direct contact with water so putting quantities of wet plaster or diluted PVA directly on it is asking for trouble. You can buy moisture-resistant MDF (usually died green or blue) but it remains about the heaviest material you can use for a baseboard.

* Good quality ply is stronger, lighter and pretty much moisture-resistant, although like MDF it will warp in direct contact with water. Marine ply is undoubtedly the best - but it's ludicrously over-priced and over-specified for our purposes. Baltic birch (BB) hits the price-quality sweet spot - but it's hard or impossible to find in the DIY superstores. A proper timber merchant will have it, but if you don't have one locally there are online suppliers that will deliver to your door. SLEC (http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/Birch-Plywood.html) is my favourite, but others are available.

* And speaking of timber merchants, my experience does not match that of The Q cited above. I have always found better quality timber, at better prices, than the likes of B&Q and Wickes can supply. Most of what the latter will sell as pine is actually spruce or fir (often stamped as SPF - spruce/pine/fir). A proper timber merchant will sell a better quality of that as "whitewood", but if you can stretch the budget a little they'll supply "redwood", which is real Scandinavian or Baltic pine and a far superior product. (Note: this applies in the UK - in the US redwood will be timber from the Pacific coast giant redwood trees.)

* Back to the question of moisture and warping... All wood will tend to act like a sponge, absorbing and giving up moisture according to its environment. If you buy timber and let it settle where you're going to use it, you should have few problems in future, but moving a baseboard from, say, the garage to your central-heated home will likely result in warping because of the differences in humidity. It's worth noting that temperature itself has almost no effect on wood, but warm air can hold more moisture than cold air, which is why you may notice doors and drawers sticking in summer and then curing themselves in winter.

* The reaction of timber is important because the wood you use for bracing can warp sufficiently to distort the baseboard itself, regardless of what quality product you used for the top. So use good quality wood that has been allowed to acclimatise to where it's going to live. Also note that using larger sections of timber means more movement as a result of humidity changes, so overbuilding can actually cause problems. There's more than you'll ever want to know about wood movement at the following link, but it's worth understanding how wood moves across its different dimensions to avoid some of the issues:
https://www.canadianwoodworking.com/tipstechniques/wood-movement

Sorry if I'm preaching to the choir, but hopefully some of the newcomers will find it useful.

Edit to add: This is massively off-topic but I'm sure the mods will move if deemed necessary!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 03:46:45 pm by PeteW »

Online Innovationgame

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2017, 04:39:02 pm »
Thank you Pete, for a first class expose on the attributes of wood.  The main thing is to ensure a stable environment.
With kind regards
Laurence
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Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2017, 07:28:03 pm »
Pete

Many thanks for this, which is very interesting; very interesting indeed.

I have often thought that the so-called bracing might actually be part of the problem and my recent efforts have all dispensed with traditional model railway baseboard construction.  Barry Norman's ply beams, perhaps used in a geodetic structure (as far as a baseboard can be geodetic), is how I think I would now tackle a large portable baseboard.

I find large non-portable and small portable baseboards are easier!

Thanks again for an erudite post.

Best wishes.

John
 
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

Offline BoxTunnel

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2017, 07:56:50 am »
A disastrous start to the day ends happily.

I awoke late on Wednesday morning as I bumped into an old friend in my local the previous night and a swift pint turned into a swift four or five pints!

I was finally on the road to Trowbridge, about 40 miles from Cricklade, at 1130 in order to collect my sundeala board that Gas Cupboard Models had put aside for me.  Now, I donít know Trowbridge at all but the satnav got me there with no problems. Then it all went horribly wrong!

Trowbridge has the most awful, confusing one way system I have ever had the misfortune to find myself in.  I spent ages driving around in confusing circles looking for parking and getting increasingly frustrated.  I am sure I passed within 50 yards or so of the model shop several times but I could not find a car park anywhere near where I needed to be.  There were several further out from the town centre but by then I was so disorientated I had no idea how to walk back to the shopping centre.  After an hour and a hell of a lot of swearing I gave up.  I had to go to B&Q in Chippenham to buy my bracing and I hoped I would find a suitable sheet of MDF or ply there.

B&Q came up trumps with a nice clean sheet of MDF 1220 x 606mm and 12mm thick which I decided would work perfectly well.  After collecting the timber for my bracing I headed off to my parentsí to begin construction.

I spent a very pleasurable couple of hours working with my Dad in his workshop and ended up with this:

Baseboard from below.



Baseboard top.




When I returned home this morning I laid some temporary track on top as below:



The A1X Terrier Portishead was properly run in, but in the piccy we see Broome Manor steaming down the back straight (she seems to be struggling a bit but I will ask questions in the appropriate subforum).

It also seems I have all the Unitrack I need which is a bonus.

Next steps are to get the wiring going through the baseboard, deciding how to construct the backscene (the rear straight will be hidden), thinking about the scenery I want and working out how to power the headshunt bottom right, but that can wait for a while.  At the moment I am just enjoying watching my locos on a proper baseboard.

Eighteen months after I joined the forum, Cerney Keynes finally belongs in the Construction thread!

Graham, quite chuffed.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 06:14:06 pm by BoxTunnel »
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2017, 08:12:44 am »
Shame about Trowbridge. It is confusing.
I'm driving up there today to take my grandson home (he's been with us for a week) so 3-4 hour drive for me a bit later on.
May just be tempted to pop into East Somerset Models at Cranmore on the way!
Layout looks good but do watch the edges - that Manor seems mighty close to the far edge. Go carefully but enjoy running your trains. Have fun.
It's you railway so build it as you want and run whatever you like. The only rule is - ENJOY :
My Layouts -
Port Perran:- Trepol Bay:-

Online port perran

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2017, 08:35:05 am »
Shame about Trowbridge. It is confusing.
I'm driving up there today to take my grandson home (he's been with us for a week) so 3-4 hour drive for me a bit later on.
May just be tempted to pop into East Somerset Models at Cranmore on the way!
Layout looks good but do watch the edges - that Manor seems mighty close to the far edge. Go carefully but enjoy running your trains. Have fun.
Ha. Scrap the bit about East Somerset Models - I've just checked and they are closed on Thursdays.
It's you railway so build it as you want and run whatever you like. The only rule is - ENJOY :
My Layouts -
Port Perran:- Trepol Bay:-

Offline Train Waiting

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2017, 09:02:00 am »
Graham,

Many congratulations to you and your father on an excellent baseboard which looks, to me, as if it will give you years of service.

I agree with Port Perran about the track at the rear being close to the edge.  Maybe you could rig up a protection strip to run along the rear like a little wall to stop a derailment becoming a plunge!  @NPN gave me a very clever hint about using a clear plastic material for this.

The layout looks good and you have demonstrated one of the great advantages of the Kato 'Unitrack' system in that it is already running.  And, if you want to make a change, you can do it in a jiffy.

Please just ask if you want any help with wiring.  The Kato components can be put together in interesting ways.

Finally, I'm sorry about your wasted journey.  But it might be worth another try (sorry!) to collect the Sundeala they have for you.  The Kato 'Unitrack' has little holes to use to pin it down.  Sundeala takes pins very easily and, importantly, they can be removed without difficulty.  Pinning into MDF is more difficult and the pins won't want to come out.  Of course, you could glue the track down.  There will be no bracing difficulties with the Sundeala with that splendid baseboard and you could cut it away in places where there are no tracks to give you some 'sunken' scenic features.  Just a thought.

Many thanks for letting us see your super progress and I hope this layout gives you a great deal of enjoyment.

With best wishes.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2017, 10:13:08 am »
Good progress, Graham. Trouble is, once trains are running everything else comes to a halt!

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2017, 10:15:00 am »
@BoxTunnel just a random thought, is the next station down the line Ashton South or South Ashton; not been through your neck of the  woods since about 2003 0r 2004.
Cheers MIKE
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Offline BoxTunnel

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2017, 07:45:20 pm »
@BoxTunnel just a random thought, is the next station down the line Ashton South or South Ashton; not been through your neck of the  woods since about 2003 0r 2004.

Mike, Cerney Keynes is a fictional station that lies between the real stations of Cricklade and South Cerney (or Cerney and Ashton Keynes as I have sometimes seen it called), is this the station you are thinking of?  Iím not aware of Ashton South or South Ashton on the M&SWJR.

Finally, I'm sorry about your wasted journey.  But it might be worth another try (sorry!) to collect the Sundeala they have for you.  The Kato 'Unitrack' has little holes to use to pin it down.  Sundeala takes pins very easily and, importantly, they can be removed without difficulty.  Pinning into MDF is more difficult and the pins won't want to come out.  Of course, you could glue the track down.  There will be no bracing difficulties with the Sundeala with that splendid baseboard and you could cut it away in places where there are no tracks to give you some 'sunken' scenic features.  Just a thought.

Thanks John, this is a great idea but Trowbridge is considerably out of my way so Iíll press on with what I have.  I emailed Dave at Gas Cupboard Models to apologise for putting him out, but he sent a very gracious reply and mentioned a song by Hugh Cornwall (ex of the Stranglers) all about the horrific one way system!

Layout looks good but do watch the edges - that Manor seems mighty close to the far edge. Go carefully but enjoy running your trains. Have fun.

Thanks PP, the photo doesnít show it clearly but there is at about an inch from the edge of the baseboard to the track on both long sides.  I will however put some sort of protection in just to be on the safe side.

Graham.
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2017, 08:20:59 pm »
Quote
Mike, Cerney Keynes is a fictional station that lies between the real stations of Cricklade and South Cerney (or Cerney and Ashton Keynes as I have sometimes seen it called), is this the station you are thinking of?  Iím not aware of Ashton South or South Ashton on the M&SWJR.

Graham, Ashton South is as fictitious as Cerney Keynes, My atempt at a play on words I just took the other halves of your fiction, Ashton from Ashton Keynes and South from South Cerney.
Cheers MIKE
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Offline BoxTunnel

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2017, 08:25:57 pm »
Quote
Mike, Cerney Keynes is a fictional station that lies between the real stations of Cricklade and South Cerney (or Cerney and Ashton Keynes as I have sometimes seen it called), is this the station you are thinking of?  Iím not aware of Ashton South or South Ashton on the M&SWJR.

Graham, Ashton South is as fictitious as Cerney Keynes, My atempt at a play on words I just took the other halves of your fiction, Ashton from Ashton Keynes and South from South Cerney.

Sorry Mike, I've just woken up to start my night shift - brain is not yet in gear!
"I don't think anybody is anybody else's moral compass. Maybe listening to my music is not the best idea if you live a very constricted life. Or maybe it is." - Lou Reed.

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2017, 08:00:42 am »
Hi Graham,

All looks good to me. Looking forward to more and also replies to your headshunt wiring questions. Still have to do mine. I'm sure it's easy but when it comes to electrics nothing is easy for me.

Have fun,

Cheers weave  :beers:

Offline skel

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Re: Cerney Keynes on the M&SWJR
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2017, 02:46:52 pm »
Thanks, that was very interesting and the kit is one I have ready for building! Regarding weathering / touching up the edges it seems we all have our pet ways of doing things. I normally use well watered down acrylic paint and then rub off with my finger
Cheers Steve

 

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