!!

Not Registered?

Welcome!  Please register to view all of the new posts and forum boards - some of which are hidden to guests.  After registering and gaining 10 posts you will be able to sell and buy items on our N'porium.

If you have any problems registering, then please check your spam filter before emailing us.  Hotmail users seem to find their emails in the Junk folder.


Thanks for reading,
The NGF Staff.

Author Topic: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points  (Read 7037 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+59)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28319
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2017, 09:07:44 pm »
After three beers two trips to the loo I have finally arrived at the end of the thread. Question Mick. Do all of your locos behave consistently or do some occasionally derail so confusing your results. I can run a loco 30 times around the track and without change or reason lap 31 it derails, example only of course.
And finally are you going to go DCC at last?


Lucky you, George. I usually have 2 beers and make 8 trips to the loo :-[
My methodology is as follows:-
Run each loco forward and backwards twice through the points and straight pass the passing loop then repeat going through the passing loop. Pick loco up, turn 180 degrees and then repeat the sequence.
If anything derails I consider it a failure. I don't have the time/inclination to run something 30 times round to see if it goes wrong on the 31st circuit. As for going DCC I have no idea what made you ask that as I'll be dust on the breeze before that happens :confused2:
I'm just trying to make electrickery easier by cutting out soldering. :D

Now to another question. A favourite track plan occupies the entire lower front of my layout and are the main lines Up/Down with a shared passing loop whereby slower trains can be held as an express passes. I like this so much I have incorporated it on each layout I've made so far. The centre line holds a tender loco and 20-24 4 wheel wagons. You can see it also acts as a crossover between the Up/Down lines. It's the lower of the 2 diagrams below and is made of 2 curved Peco code 55 points and a large radius code 55 point at each end. Despite the 2 curved points at each end being identical radii, by using flexitrack off each end, everything (and I mean everything) runs extremely well with no derailments. There is no chance of recreating this in Kato so I need an alternative in Unitrack if anyone can help :help:

Offline Malc

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21878
  • Posts: 4270
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2017, 09:43:32 pm »
I haven't got access to my PC at the moment, but I would have thought you could duplicate that. Give it a go in SCARM. There is a Kato selection.
I'm not sure if life is passing me by, or trying to run me over.

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+59)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28319
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2017, 10:09:12 pm »
I haven't got access to my PC at the moment, but I would have thought you could duplicate that. Give it a go in SCARM. There is a Kato selection.

But Kato don't do curved points, Malc :no:

Offline railsquid

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 25547
  • Posts: 4167
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • My model railway website
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2017, 12:52:32 am »
Doable, but not elegantly, probably involving "Y" points.

This site has a bunch of patterns achievable with Unitrack: http://jw-cad.fukurail.gozaru.jp/pattern/KATO_index.html

Variants on creating a shared inner track, though not quite what you want: http://jw-cad.fukurail.gozaru.jp/pattern/KATO-3-tracks-refuge-siding-inside.html

Takahachikawa - Japanese and other trains

Birmingham Knotmore Street - (ex) GWR mainline through the Midlands

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+59)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28319
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2017, 10:50:47 am »
Thanks very much for those links, Squiddy. As you say, it looks doable, albeit I'll lose some length from the loops. At least I have some ideas I can play with in SCARM.
 :thankyousign:

Offline Malc

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21878
  • Posts: 4270
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2017, 01:25:09 pm »
As I said, I can't test the theory, but the large Kato points would fit in reasonably well. As you say, it would take a bit more width, but not too much. Must get @Mixy to do an iPad version of SCARM.
I'm not sure if life is passing me by, or trying to run me over.

Offline Mixy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: bg
  • Gender: Male
  • Author of SCARM
    • SCARM layout design software
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2017, 05:55:44 pm »
As I said, I can't test the theory, but the large Kato points would fit in reasonably well. As you say, it would take a bit more width, but not too much. Must get @Mixy to do an iPad version of SCARM.


Using SCARM on iPad and Android Tablets  ;)

Mixy

Offline Malc

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21878
  • Posts: 4270
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2017, 10:16:53 pm »
Unfortunately it looks like you need your PC up and running, which is the problem. If I had that, I wouldn't need an iPad version.
I'm not sure if life is passing me by, or trying to run me over.

Offline darkwolf

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #68 on: May 29, 2017, 01:41:14 pm »
I had a go at the plan and it can work but you will need to modify the points and add a 4.5mm bit of track of one of the curves at each end

the second on need no modifying but it gives a large gape between the rails and imo does not look to good

hope this helps



Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+59)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28319
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #69 on: May 29, 2017, 03:32:05 pm »
Many thanks for doing that. The second one looks by far the best to me and is closest what I have currently. I've downloaded the pic and tried to expand it to read what points you have used but it just blurs the type. Could you let me know which you have used please? (I could go to #6 points as currently they are Peco code 55 large ones) By making mods to the points, do you mean trimming the shoulders so the points fit snuggly together? I know you can saw Unitrack to length but 4.5mm??!! :thankyousign:
@darkwolf

Offline darkwolf

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 28
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #70 on: May 29, 2017, 04:05:35 pm »
I used the kato #4 points in the pic and yes you will need to trim the shoulders so the points fit snuggly as for the 4.5 mm that will only be a problem if you use the kato double track like the 20-182 set if you stick to the single track then the gap on the outer curve can be lost very easily
I did have a look at #6 points but the gaps between the rails are far worse the the first one

Offline Invicta Alec

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2017, 10:12:39 pm »
I've enjoyed reading through this thread, hope there is more to come yet.

Like a lot of people I got back in to model railways after decades of absence. In February I started my first layout using Peco Setrack. Massive re-learning curve on all fronts. Mine's a DCC layout using an NSE PowerCab but the point work is separately controlled with a 12v DC adapter operating a Peco Smartswitch. I found it a nightmare to install the Smartswitch and to finely "tune" the servo motors to work the points. Added to that I was unhappy with the frequent hesitancy over the setrack insulfrog points of all my locos (all 4 to be precise!).

I'll admit to making several layout changes and in lifting and relaying the tracks a number of times I probably caused some of the uneven running myself. I'd got to the point where I should have started ballasting but was reluctant to do so.

I decided to change to Kato. Having read tons of stuff on this and other forums I set about duplicating my layout as near as possible with Kato track BUT deliberately AVOIDING using #4 points (because of what I'd read). Yes #6s are longer and in the end, Scarm or no Scarm, I had to admit defeat into squeezing them onto my little baseboard.  So the baseboard got extended by 140mm and now sticks out even further across the space I can't really afford in a corner of a bedroom! BUT the benefits are huge! The track clicks together within minutes. The amount of wiring underneath has seemingly halved. My gigantic fleet all seems to be happy running in both directions. Although its only been down a couple of days I'm a lot happier now with my layout. A perceived problem with my double crossover was solved by an invaluable tip picked up on one of the "sticky" threads here. I'm a Kato convert!

However, mindful of the OP reasons for creating this thread I would agree that had my layout been further advanced (scenery and ballasting etc) I probably would not have changed. Secondly the thought of going to the expense of changing only to find a large percentage of stock wouldn't adapt would be a definite no-no! (I don't have any steam, my little fleet is just passenger diesels and EMUs).

Any further updates on this thread newportnobby?

Alec.

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+59)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28319
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2017, 01:05:30 pm »
Hi Alec.
Thanks very much for your thoughts. No further progress has been made as my mojo has gone walkabout and I haven't found it again yet.
My problem is I can't increase any dimension of my baseboard and am not willing to compromise the layout plan I have. Therefore #6 points are just out of the question. I'm sure some think I'm not giving Unitrack a fair crack of the whip but it's my way or no way. As I said, my diesel success rate is 100% so far but I don't just operate diesels and never will. Even when I have completed testing all my locos I will have to run some rolling stock through the points to see if they run successfully or not, as maybe some of my older coaches/wagons with pizza cutter wheels could cause problems :hmmm:
No scenery or ballasting has taken place yet.

Online Train Waiting

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1081
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • The Table-Top Railway.
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #73 on: July 22, 2017, 05:12:52 pm »
Sorry to hear, NN, that inspiration is having some time off.  Hopefully, it will come back soon.

I used KATO 'Unitrack' for my 'Sandrock' layout and it is an excellent product.  I became aware of potential difficulties with the #4 turnouts during testing.  As has been remarked here, the diesels (all KATO in my case) had no difficulty with #4 turnouts.  Steam locomotives were a different matter and I could not obtain the reliable running that I wanted.  Even a KATO Southern Pacific GS-4 was prone to derail on occasion.  Steam locomotives from other manufacturers derailed frequently.  I tried modifying the #4s, but, although better, I was not happy.  As a result of this testing, I used #6 turnouts for the layout and have had no difficulties at all. 

I also used a scissors crossover and it works well, although it is important to check after each operation that all the switches have moved fully over.

On a more general note, 'Unitrack' was, I understand, designed originally for the Japanese market where extensive 'N' Gauge layouts are assembled and then dismantled after operating sessions, as domestic space is at a premium.  The special 'Unijoiners' enable the track to be laid and taken up without damage.  However, they do not hold the rail joints like 'Peco' fishplates and I have noticed that the 'top' can vary at rail joints.  This is most easily observed by running a finger tip along the rails.  Perhaps this is because of inferior track-laying on my part.  Whilst less than perfect, this has not affected the running of the locomotives and rolling stock, so I simply live with it.

My new layout, the Table-Top Railway, will use Peco track for several reasons.  Relevant here are that I believe I can obtain a better 'top' and I wish to use smaller radius points.

I hope that you resolve this matter to your complete satisfaction and congratulations on your extensive research.   

Best Wishes.

John 
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

Offline Newportnobby

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+59)
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • N Gauge Society Number: 21962
  • Posts: 28319
  • Country: england
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Nobby's Kato test track deliberately using #4 points
« Reply #74 on: July 22, 2017, 05:41:03 pm »
Thanks, John.
I am trying to cram in quite a lot with my upper level branch line which uses Peco code 55 electrofrog points. As these are the same length as the Kato #4 the Unitrack ones would have been ideal. The matter of the double slip would have to be dealt with as it's an important part of the plan.


The other reason I am avoiding the Kato #6 points is that owing to their length I would lose too much space in the fiddle yards which both use Peco code 55 electros. Being 12" radius everything works fine with them, so I'd urge you not to consider anything smaller such as the set track points!!!

I, too, have found a variation in track top level with joints on Kato track but nothing significant enough to cause poor running.

 

Please Support Us!
June Goal: £55.00
Due Date: Jun 30
Total Receipts: £60.00
Above Goal: £5.00
Site Currency: GBP
109% 
June Donations


Advertise Here