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Author Topic: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!  (Read 15943 times)

Ben A and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline red_death

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #255 on: December 13, 2016, 04:56:32 pm »
For clarity there is no suggestion from us (Revolution) that we would only offer kits.

Our unpainted or plain white 321s have not exactly fared well so far and we know from discussions with other manufacturers that the reality is that unfinished items just don't sell that well (a pity because I agree from a modellers perspective that sometimes they would be really useful).

Cheers, Mike



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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #256 on: December 13, 2016, 05:04:18 pm »
If the tanks were only sold in kit form I would have to cancel my orders, being physically unable to make kits from such small parts. I don't think I would be alone either :uneasy:

Hi

Sorry I wasn't suggesting this I was replying to an earlier post that suggested kits might increase the sales.

Cheers

Paul

Offline Mustermark

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #257 on: December 13, 2016, 05:15:45 pm »
If the tanks were only sold in kit form I would have to cancel my orders, being physically unable to make kits from such small parts. I don't think I would be alone either :uneasy:

I agree Nobby. I think this works well like Ben has outlined... perfect RTR models of far greater quality and fidelity than most of us could put together. For a start Tampo printing is a key element to this - far better than waterslide decals.

RevolutioN can keep my deposit for as long as they need it to keep the project alive; I'm even thinking of just getting work to send them my pay directly!  :-[

Sadly, I think by mid-Feb it will be clear that the demographic that would want these does not fit the business model.  Here's why I think it is - it's all been said before, though.

The older generation (like me and older) are the most likely to be modelling an era suitable for these (I know that they stretched long into the 80's but by then there were the older TEAs that might be more contemporary. So, assuming that *most* transition era folks wanting these are older folks, they fall into a couple of categories that would make them unfavorable for this business model... they are perhaps on their pension already, like Bob; or they are not engaging well with internet forums or crowdfunding. Not all old folks are Luddites or untrusting of new ways of funding models - I just think these factors are significant.

On the other hand, with the more modern stuff like the Pendo, the 92, or the new TEAs, these folks are more likely to be a good decade or two younger than me. They probably have jobs (not pensions) and maybe they're doing well later in their careers and have more disposable income. They are likely to have been on the internet for most of their adult lives (if not longer). They will be more likely to be receptive to / trusting of the crowdfunding thing.

I'm not too surprised the buying pattern is totally different between transition era and modern era. Sad as it is, but I think this project is suffering from those factors.

I will be making the most of what does come our way, even if that means Reading has to be 'relocated' to the WCML from time to time.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 06:17:43 pm by Mustermark »

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Online Ben A

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #258 on: December 13, 2016, 06:14:52 pm »
Hello all,

Some really interesting points in this thread.

I think Mustermark has absolutely hit the nail on the head re the different spending patterns of the demographics.

Other factors that I feel are relevant:

1). There are already tanker models available for the 60s modeller to use a little "modeller's licence."

2). The Class B tankers are relatively unglamorous workhorse wagons.  To some they will be important, but others may struggle to justify the investment ahead of, say, some new coaches or a loco.

3). Money upfront for models is still an alien concept to many.

And just to answer a couple of other points:

February is the cut off.  It is great that people want us to keep their money for longer, but we aren't comfortable with this.

We aren't doing kits, which would be more likely to impact negatively on RTR sales than boost overall sales, or unpainted models which *should* be popular but every single time they have been tried have failed.

There is some great coverage of this project in the NGS Journal, and in this month's Model Rail.   Let's hope this and other publicity gets the project over the line.  Mike and I are really grateful for all the support, and want it to work,  but if the market isn't there, it isn't there!

Cheers

Ben A.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 07:23:01 pm by Ben A »



Offline Roy L S

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #259 on: December 13, 2016, 09:25:29 pm »
Hi Ben

Personally I am grateful that you have allowed a "stay" until February. I would be very happy for you to hold my money for longer but I would have to accept that if it hasn't reached the necessary critical mass by then it is unlikely to.

As to the model's appeal, I would have thought it ideally positioned to gain support from modellers of the transition period all the way through Corporate Blue to Sectorisation. By any measure that is a very serious chunk of the British N Market.

Given the success of the recent Thompson BG I don't think it can possibly be a case that the size of Transition plusCorporate Blue is over estimated which has to bring one to the conclusion that it is something about the crowdfunding model that just does not appeal so much to a certain demographic. This is all the more strange given that the same people are happy to pay a 30% ish deposit for an NGS commissioned model and balance on delivery...

Roy
« Last Edit: December 13, 2016, 11:41:59 pm by Roy L S »

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #260 on: December 13, 2016, 09:52:49 pm »
Mustermark is right in that, making a generalisation, transition modellers tend to be of a 'certain age' with limited funds. I still maintain, as I said on page 10 of this thread, that the 'block' train of, say, 9 TEA bogie wagons would cost around 250 whereas the same length train of Class Bs is nearer to 395.
My only block trains are 30 or so Butterleys, 20 or so unfitted vans, 20 x 21T hoppers and 9 x Freightliner containers. (No glamorous wagons here, Ben!). I'd love a block train of the Class Bs but would have to sell body parts to achieve this (and my body parts are in poor nick :-[)
So, to sum up, it is funds and layout size preventing this transition era chap from going wild.

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #261 on: December 13, 2016, 09:53:52 pm »
@Ben A I realise that you will have costs 'up front', but it may be the thought of paying a 50% deposit that is putting some people off  ???.  As you said earlier,  "Money upfront for models is still an alien concept to many". Just a thought. Whatever though, I do not mind waiting as we need this to go ahead!  :beers:
David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.

Online Ben A

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #262 on: December 13, 2016, 11:32:57 pm »

Hi all,

Dannyboy - there isn't another way, at least not if you want to manage the projects with financial probity.

Mike and I have funded the production of the CADs (which in relative terms is not a huge amount) from the small surplus on the TEA project.

But beyond that our projects are ringfenced - the Class Bs can only happen if enough people want them enough to put the money in upfront to pay for the tooling, and then the production.  That is why we need the 50% now and 50% later.  It really is that simple.

It is also why, if you look at the news pages of our site, we work hard to keep them current and show people where their money is being spent every step of the way - whether they are backing 00 TEA tankers, N gauge KFA flats, Pendolinos, 92s or other models.

Newport Nobby - yes, if you want a train of comparable length to the long bogie TEAs then you will need to spend more.  The connection between size and cost is not linear, sadly!  On the other hand, were trains as long in the 1960s as they are now?  Maybe they were?

Cheers

Ben A.



Offline Byegad

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #263 on: December 14, 2016, 09:34:47 am »
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

Offline Barry M

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #264 on: December 14, 2016, 09:41:04 am »
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

But the Class B 35T IS unique in N Gauge.
Building 'Bromsgrove' - a large N Gauge layout depicting the banking practices 1958-1964 on the Lickey. DCC and computer controlled with Railroad & Co!

Offline Byegad

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #265 on: December 14, 2016, 09:44:38 am »
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

But the Class B 35T IS unique in N Gauge.

Agreed, but not 'unique enough' (Yes I know you can't qualify unique.).

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #266 on: December 14, 2016, 09:48:07 am »
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.


Quod erat demonstrandum.
It's Mike & Ben's fault for choosing a wagon people want long rakes of but just can't afford :nerner: ;)

On the other hand, were trains as long in the 1960s as they are now?  Maybe they were?


Oh yes. I recall many a freight train that just seemed interminable, and am sure many remember coal trains composed of 4 wheeled wagons that clanked through stations for so long and so loudly you couldn't hear yourself think. Of course, this wouldn't have occurred with the class Bs owing to the sheer weight of each wagon (assuming full) but I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing I could afford a rake of 20 or more.

Offline Bob G

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #267 on: December 14, 2016, 12:04:50 pm »
It's Mike & Ben's fault for choosing a wagon people want long rakes of but just can't afford :nerner: ;)

Actually it was Scott and I who identified this wagon to be missing from the must have list and Mike and Ben simply agreed and have provided the platform to help make it happen.
I would argue this is more useful and more travelled than a Covhop - well to me it is, and surely that is what matters :)

However, with more and more options for locos, coaches and wagons available, the ability of an N gauge modeller to model their specific area means sales will not be as large as if the wagon was introduced even ten years ago. And if you want a Regent tank, you can get a Peco approximation for half the price.

Maybe Mike and Ben need to accept lower production volumes, raise the price 5/wagon, and then if we get this wagon built, we might get Class A tanks at a lower price... I just don't know anymore.

There obviously is a post-production market out there - witness the Revolution TEAs selling on EBay - but who will take the risk and purchase several hundred to sell them on, when you only need one other person to buy them and sell them on a few pence cheaper on that auction site to scupper your risk taking.

Bob

Online Ben A

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #268 on: December 14, 2016, 12:31:36 pm »

Hello all,

I don't want to come over all "hard sell" here and would urge anyone considering these wagons to buy them because they want them, not as an investment.

However, one guarantee Mike and I can make is that we will never sell them cheaper than they are now, and nor will retailers unless they are willing to sell at a loss.

I have been thinking about the comments suggesting, perfectly reasonably, that these wagons are "similar" to models that are lower priced and far less detailed.

This is true.  As I said before, there are, and will continue to be, cheaper "generic" options.

What we are seeking to develop is what might be considered a Britsh version of the continental market - that is high end models, that are accurate, offer exceptional levels of detailing and are clearly aimed at adult modellers who value these characteristics.

But this does have a price.  I think our wagons will always be closer to Fleischmann prices than Peco; but then we believe the quality will be remembered long after the price is forgotten.

It might be possible to produce models that are cheaper with plastic ladders, fewer or no separate parts, generic underframes etc but such models are not something I am interested in.

Cheers

Ben A.



Offline Steven B

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #269 on: December 14, 2016, 12:54:31 pm »
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

Doesn't that apply to most models? There are already tankers, opens, vans and coaches available so is there any need to make anything new?

What would make a wagon, coach or loco truly unique?

To many modellers a tank wagon is just a tank wagon and they're not bothered about the differences in time period and usage of say the current Farish tanks compared to the proposed Class B. These aren't the people who will be buying the new models as they'll already have what they need.

The people who do recognise the differences and to who it matters that the Class B pre-dates the Farish and Peco 15' tanks are the ones Revolution are targeting. Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be quite enough of them aware of the project and willing to pre-pay for a model that won't arrive for many months.

The trouble Revolution appear to have is that people grumble that they're not offering transition era models but when they do they don't get supported. You can't have one without the other.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

 

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