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Author Topic: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!  (Read 28297 times)

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Offline Dalek

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #240 on: December 13, 2016, 01:16:20 pm »
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike :)
I will come and seek you out at the Glasgow show  :wave:

The tanks look great, actually much better than great, they look fantastic !  :thumbsup: :greatpicturessign:

Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

Having said that i do intend on buying some, quality is better than quantity ! (unless its far away in the distance!). I just need to recover after x-mas ! :o

Craig

You can't get Peco Class B 35T Tank wagons....??

Hi

No they don't however I think the point was that other people would see the Peco tank wagon at £8 and think well I can have that for that price why should I pay over twice that for one.

To some people one four wheel tank is the same as another and they are quite happy with something that looks like a tanker. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this view.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul

Yes thats the point i was trying to make. One tanker = £8, another = £16-£18 (can't remember exactly).
Both tankers, not the same item modelled but both are tankers and it depends on what you want, thats the point i was trying to make. Quality / detail vs cheaper not so detailed, no nem pockets etc.

I don't currently have a layout, i used to do this kind of thing a long time ago when n gauge was lima, minitrix etc and pretty coarse compared to todays standards ( still have some of mine from then). However i do want to build a layout at some point in the future (we do have a very small n layout for my 10 year old in his bedroom) and i would really love these tankers as i would rather have fewer detailed models than lots of not so detailed models. I do intend to order some after the christmas period is over.
It would be great if these were stocked/available somewhere after the origional batch so you could buy some later on to add to your collection/rake , but i guess you can't have everything unfortunetly!

Craig

Online njee20

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #241 on: December 13, 2016, 01:38:39 pm »
That doesn't really explain the different buying pattern versus modern stuff though. I'm not sure I buy that justification. If Peco did a Class B tank then maybe people would struggle to justify the more expensive Revolution ones, but that's not the case.

To take the TEA comparator, people could buy the Farish offering for £10 less per wagon than the Revolution one, but they still (collectively) bought thousands of the Revolution ones.

It's certainly curious. I can think of no inherent reason this isn't a rousing success, and feel for people who want them. I'm not one of them though sadly.

Online Bob Tidbury

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #242 on: December 13, 2016, 02:29:36 pm »
Can I add my penny worth of thoughts to this ,I think it's a combination of the fact that a lot of people have bought the TEAs ,the fact that Christmas is fast approaching , in my case the Union Mills Dukedogs came on the scene and my family bought two of those for me for Christmas other wise I would have definately had a few of the proposed tanks . Apart from my son and daughter the rest of my family are living on their state pensions ,and every thing is coming out far to quickly and unless you know well in advance what's coming out you make a choice of what you know Is available ,then something else you would love to own comes out but you've allready spent the little funds you have available. I have actualy asked a friend to add one tank onto his order and I hope if they go ahead I have sold one of my spare Locos in time to pay for it.
Other wise I'm in big trouble and will have to owe him the money.
Bob

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #243 on: December 13, 2016, 02:39:41 pm »
But people are buying 92s and HOAs? And as TEAs and class B tanks never coexisted surely people would probably have committed to a large order of either/or, or be in the fortunate position of being able to buy both purely to support Ben and Mike.

I imagine the people who have effectively spent all of their budget on TEAs and thus can't afford class B tankers is a very small number indeed.

Offline Mark

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #244 on: December 13, 2016, 02:44:46 pm »
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Appreciate the update Mike - am delighted you're giving the project every opportunity to make it over the line and like others am happy to wait.  Hopefully things will pick up when the financial mayhem of Christmas is behind us.

It is perplexing, though, that orders are still so sluggish compared to the TEAs, HOAs etc. Maybe, as some have suggested, us transition era modellers are after all just a little less willing than our modern image colleagues to engage with newer, less established approaches such as crowdfunding. 

Mark

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #245 on: December 13, 2016, 02:50:10 pm »
I think Bob has a point

End of year/TINGS is the time to announce "in the shops for Christmas" not "available Christmas 2018"

As I have said elsewhere I sell my own models and kits so I recirculate funds but I'm a rarity and Q4 is not the time for new model deposits.

I also think Locomotives get a higher priority than rolling stock.

I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

Online Snowwolflair

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #246 on: December 13, 2016, 03:03:13 pm »
How about a REVOLUTIONary approach?

My guess is the four cost points for these models are

CAD
Tooling
Painting/decoration
Assembly

Why not offer an unmade unpainted kit option?

It increases the sales to cover the tooling and removes the cost of Painting/Decoration and assembly.  Packaging can be simplified as well, and sell them in packs of six.

Offline woodbury22uk

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #247 on: December 13, 2016, 03:03:53 pm »
As someone who uses modern mainly British and French models, I have still committed to all 4 of the United Molasses tanks for a diorama which will recreate a scene from my working life in the late 1970s, early 1980s.

I think for transition era modellers these Class Bs would be an essential vehicle for any goods activity. Maybe there really are not quite as many modelling the era as is generally thought.
Mike

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Online njee20

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #248 on: December 13, 2016, 03:12:26 pm »
I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

I know Ben and Mike have been upfront about not wanting to sit on money indefinitely. They opened the order book in September, by June they'll have potentially had customers' money for 9 months. There'll always be something around the corner which means it's less than ideal circumstances.

It's certainly not an enviable position for them.

Online Snowwolflair

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #249 on: December 13, 2016, 03:18:22 pm »
I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

I know Ben and Mike have been upfront about not wanting to sit on money indefinitely. They opened the order book in September, by June they'll have potentially had customers' money for 9 months. There'll always be something around the corner which means it's less than ideal circumstances.

It's certainly not an enviable position for them.

I understand, but I am not hearing a clamor for refunds. Its not as if we are losing much interest by not having the money in the bank.

It would be a shame to let the work they have already done go to waste because they just believed buyers would be worried by the delay.

Offline Barry M

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #250 on: December 13, 2016, 03:21:18 pm »
I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

I know Ben and Mike have been upfront about not wanting to sit on money indefinitely. They opened the order book in September, by June they'll have potentially had customers' money for 9 months. There'll always be something around the corner which means it's less than ideal circumstances.

It's certainly not an enviable position for them.

I understand, but I am not hearing a clamor for refunds. Its not as if we are losing much interest by not having the money in the bank.

It would be a shame to let the work they have already done go to waste because they just believed buyers would be worried by the delay.

I'd be happy for them to keep my deposit for a year if it meant this going ahead
Building 'Bromsgrove' - a large N Gauge layout depicting the banking practices 1958-1964 on the Lickey. DCC and computer controlled with Railroad & Co!

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #251 on: December 13, 2016, 03:59:10 pm »
Re my comment in Reply 227 and Mikes response in 228 - I meant May 2018, (well I didn't know I meant that when I typed the reply!  ;D). I knew the process would be a bit long winded, but I did not realise just what was involved - makes me even more appreciative of what Mike and Ben are trying to do  :thumbsup:.
David.
I used to be indecisive - now I'm not - I don't think.

Offline red_death

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #252 on: December 13, 2016, 04:12:49 pm »
End of year/TINGS is the time to announce "in the shops for Christmas" not "available Christmas 2018"

I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

TINGS is the foremost opportunity for N gauge modellers to all be in one place and for us to get feedback from people.  We could start to launch projects away from the shows but our feeling has been that it has worked well for our other models.

The problem with extending deadlines before starting tooling is that inevitably it also delays development, tooling and production further down the line. Furthermore we don't want to have lots of projects (or cash) piling up on us at once - we are probably at our capacity to be able to manage projects at the moment (though the Pendolino development is pretty much finished with just a few niggles to sort before production).

The order book for the TEAs opened in Sept 2015 and closed in Jan/Feb 16 - there is never a perfect time for taking people's money!

My guess is the four cost points for these models are

CAD
Tooling
Painting/decoration
Assembly

Why not offer an unmade unpainted kit option?

It increases the sales to cover the tooling and removes the cost of Painting/Decoration and assembly.  Packaging can be simplified as well, and sell them in packs of six.

That only works if it does actually increase total sales rather than just divert sales from RTR to kits. On this project the costs are reasonably weighted towards tooling anyway so it wouldn't save much on assembly/painting.

Then there is an issue do you fail to meet minimum order numbers for particular liveries or does the unit cost for assembly/painting actually go up.

Adding more variation in packaging (regardless of it being simpler) is also a potential cost increase as well.

Sorry but I'm far from convinced that it really helps. If someone can make a compelling business case for it then I'd re-consider.

Cheers, Mike



Offline PaulCheffus

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #253 on: December 13, 2016, 04:18:51 pm »
Hi

I see too many posts on here and other forums saying if only I had the skills to build X,Y or Z kit or I can't finish it to the same standard as RTR.

I don't think producing this as a kit would generate any appreciable increase in sales.

Cheers

Paul

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Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
« Reply #254 on: December 13, 2016, 04:31:43 pm »
If the tanks were only sold in kit form I would have to cancel my orders, being physically unable to make kits from such small parts. I don't think I would be alone either :uneasy:

 

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