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Author Topic: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series  (Read 41819 times)

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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #315 on: January 17, 2018, 09:26:24 am »
Thanks all for this interesting discussion! I don't think that locking the thread was necessary ... :no:


The question is where is the quoted 16000mm over buffers measured? If it includes the coupling, then the Kato body would be the correct length there or there

Ge4/4 IIIs (and most RHB stock) do have a single buffer as you well know. Length over buffers is a standard metric, and shouldn’t include couplers or anything like that. It’s not the end of the world, it’s close, but they are short.

In Europe, on stock outfitted with Mittelpufferkupplungen ("center-buffer couplings"; commonly Scharfenberg type) the couplings are indeed included in length over buffers measurements (they are the buffers there, after all).

But the model couplings are usually oversized, so measuring the bodyshell length, as Gordon said, is certainly a better way of scaling a model. With length over buffers the manufacturers can cheat - I remember the Minitrix Taurus which was based on another chassis (BR 152?) and was too long. But with shortening the buffers and crash element boxes, they produced the "correct" LüP. ;)

Offline njee20

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #316 on: January 17, 2018, 09:43:57 am »
Thanks all for this interesting discussion! I don't think that locking the thread was necessary ... :no:


The question is where is the quoted 16000mm over buffers measured? If it includes the coupling, then the Kato body would be the correct length there or there

Ge4/4 IIIs (and most RHB stock) do have a single buffer as you well know. Length over buffers is a standard metric, and shouldn’t include couplers or anything like that. It’s not the end of the world, it’s close, but they are short.

In Europe, on stock outfitted with Mittelpufferkupplungen ("center-buffer couplings"; commonly Scharfenberg type) the couplings are indeed included in length over buffers measurements (they are the buffers there, after all).

But the model couplings are usually oversized, so measuring the bodyshell length, as Gordon said, is certainly a better way of scaling a model. With length over buffers the manufacturers can cheat - I remember the Minitrix Taurus which was based on another chassis (BR 152?) and was too long. But with shortening the buffers and crash element boxes, they produced the "correct" LüP. ;)

Yep, that certainly makes sense, particularly MUs as fewer and fewer have buffers (even in the UK) but again, Ge4/4s don't have Scharfenberg couplers (what do they have?! Are they still screw links?), and do have buffers. It's pretty moot, we really are talking tenths of a mm on the model at that point!

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #317 on: January 17, 2018, 09:57:43 am »
No, the narrow-gauge couplers are not Scharfenbergs. But all these couplings are still referred to as Mittelpufferkupplungen, so I am sure that the couplings are included in the LüP measurement.

Offline retica

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #318 on: January 17, 2018, 10:03:26 am »
Ge4/4s don't have Scharfenberg couplers (what do they have?! Are they still screw links?), and do have buffers.

Buffers yes, as in one on each end. On one side of the buffer is a hook, on the other side a screw link.

#651 Fideris

steve

Offline retica

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #319 on: January 17, 2018, 10:16:03 am »
Just found this link, lots of very interesting pictures about the RhB. (just ignore the login should it pop up)

Have you ever seen this one before ? (The Ge4/4 III in the making)

steve
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 10:17:16 am by retica »

Online daffy

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #320 on: January 17, 2018, 12:26:36 pm »
Good find on the Twitter feed from Lokführer, Steve. :thumbsup: Duly bookmarked, though I shall never join the tweeters.

Nice construction pic too. I wonder if there's video footage anywhere? :hmmm:
Mike

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Offline marco neri

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #321 on: January 17, 2018, 02:49:35 pm »
Hi,
As another RhB fan...( and owner of a litte Bemo colection..when they were cheaper :D)  I will buy Kato and others Rhb-ers at two conditions
1) My wallet doesn’t cry!
2) They wil be at proper gauge (6,5 mm.)

Greetings from Italy....where the Rhb begins

Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Offline Gordon

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #322 on: January 17, 2018, 07:45:19 pm »
No, the narrow-gauge couplers are not Scharfenbergs. But all these couplings are still referred to as Mittelpufferkupplungen, so I am sure that the couplings are included in the LüP measurement.

If this is indeed the case then that does explain the 'discrepancy' and also suggests that the Kato body itself is the correct length
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

Swiss Railways Consultant
French Railways Consultant
European railway expert

First British N loco (in 1972): Farish GER Holden tank!
Modelling French N gauge since 1975
Modelling Swiss and German N gauge since 1971

Offline njee20

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #323 on: January 17, 2018, 09:48:38 pm »
How do you mean?

The prototype is 16m over the buffer/mittelwhatsit (gotta love the Germans!) - there are no couplers protruding further so there’s no ambiguity in the measurement, so the Kato one ‘should’ be 106.7mm excluding any couplers. It’s not, it’s 103mm.

Maybe if you include the rapido couplers it scales to 16m, but that’s obviously pretty daft, and still makes the body too short.

Offline retica

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #324 on: January 17, 2018, 10:13:51 pm »
so the Kato one ‘should’ be 106.7mm excluding any couplers. It’s not, it’s 103mm.

Maybe if you include the rapido couplers it scales to 16m, but that’s obviously pretty daft, and still makes the body too short.


No need to include the Crapido couplers, they are out of scale in so many ways.  :D

As long as we do not have building blueprints or the exact length of the body we can't be sure that the Kato model is too short. There is no Mittelbuffer on the model so we can't measure the length over buffer on the model. The only thing we can measure for sure is the body length. We need blueprints or someone out there with a measuring tape to measure the length of the real thing.

@Gordon, next time you are in Graubuenden could you please measure one for us ?  ;)

steve

Offline njee20

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #325 on: January 17, 2018, 10:22:16 pm »
Ahhhh, the fact there’s no buffer on the model was lost on me, I see Gordon’s point now!

Online daffy

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #326 on: January 18, 2018, 06:22:06 am »
For clarity, here's a photo of the front end of one of my Kato Ge 4:4 III's. I've set the front of the bodyshell as exactly against the 10cm mark as I can manage, then photographed it from directly above that point. As far as I can tell, with the caveat that a measurement is only as good as the measuring device and the measurers eye, the rear of the body shell coincides with the 20.3cm mark on the rule, making the shell the 103mm quoted.

With 3.7mm to 'find' to make the model 1/150th of the real McCoy, we only need the 'missing' Mittelbuffer to protrude 1.85mm at each end for all to be about right. In my view therefore, it's about right, and I'm happy with that. (Was I ever unhappy about it? :hmmm: Er..... nope! :no:)

Please note that I did not see the point of showing the whole loco against the ruler due to lens parallax problems distorting the perspective.



But as Steve says, without a view of the blueprints of the original (though all sources I find quote the same 16000mm), nothing is certain.

Like life, really. And I'm easy going about that too.
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

Offline Mike Beard

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #327 on: January 18, 2018, 11:07:10 am »
Moving on a bit. A Schafenberger(?) coupling is the one with air connections at the top and electrical connections underneath. Found mainly on EMU's including a lot of UK ones.

I can't measure the length of a loco as it goes by. Rivet counters are always unhappy over something.

Track. I have a memory that RhB plain track is now mainly concrete sleepers but when did this start and is it universal? Are the turnouts on timber or concrete and if the main running lines are concrete sleepers what are passing loops and sidings laid with? It's not easy even with compromise.

Your thoughts would be appreciated as I am designing my 12 foot x about 2 foot - spirals? portable.

I'm informed that my Allegra left the shop today in Japan, so I could open a book on when it arrives and if I pay import dues - highly probable as it's not from China.

Happy Modelling,

Mike Beard.

Offline njee20

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #328 on: January 18, 2018, 11:21:03 am »
Confusingly quite a few UK MUs (Pendolinos, Voyagers) actually use Dellner couplers, which are a proprietary (and I believe incompatible) version of the Scharfernberg coupler. But that's a whole different topic.

Re: track, last time I looked there was a real mix of wooden and concrete sleeper. One would assume, like most mainline routes that as they're replacing track they're using concrete sleepers and bearers, but aren't rushing to replace what they've got.

Chur - Landquart is concrete IIRC, but much of the 'core' of the route is still using wooden sleepers. It was 18 months or so I was last there, looking at photos it looks like the refurbished Landwasser viaduct is using concrete, as are bits of the route to Arosa and down to Tirano - particularly the last 10 miles or so, whilst a lot of the stations are still laid with wooden.

I'd probably use wooden if it were me, unless you're modelling one of the higher speed sections. I'd expect the vast majority of sidings and passing loops to still be wooden.

Edited for a bit more detail.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 11:31:32 am by njee20 »

Online daffy

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Re: Kato Rhaetische Bahn series
« Reply #329 on: January 18, 2018, 12:59:25 pm »
@Mike Beard  Maybe useful, depending upon the particular film, to take a look at some of the cab-ride videos that are plentiful on YouTube. I look at these quite a bit for detail stuff in general that my memory and photos don't satisfy, and in some it is quite clear what sort of sleepers are being used in different locations.
A Google search for 'Führerstandsmitfahrt RhB' brings up a good sample of these videos, many in HD 720dpi.

Google images also,a good source of info, as are Gordon's own photos that he has linked here somewhere, and sites such as this one :
http://www.haribu.ch/

Hope your Allegra is soon with you. I note that some members here have stated that their items from Japan have escaped duty despite being priced higher than the break point for taxation. Good luck. :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 01:02:12 pm by daffy »
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

 

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