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Poll

Would you buy a crowd-funded Class 116/117/118 DMU?

Yes, at least 1 Class 116
5 (5.1%)
Yes, at least 1 Class 117
15 (15.2%)
Yes, at least 1 Class 118
4 (4%)
Yes, at least 1 - it doesn't matter which of the three classes.
28 (28.3%)
Yes, at least 2 different classes
13 (13.1%)
Yes, at least one of each class
6 (6.1%)
No, I wouldn't want any of those.
28 (28.3%)

Total Members Voted: 97

Author Topic: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU  (Read 17909 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline johnlambert

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Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« on: February 05, 2015, 09:25:33 pm »
Taken from the EMU thread.  I thought I'd start a topic on the 116/117/118 DMUs since it was suggested there.

I know DJ Models has been commissioned to do one for Kernow in OO, I don't know if that represents a problem for doing one in our scale?  It does mean that laser scanning has been done but that's only a small piece of the puzzle in terms of getting the model made and (from what I've heard) a tiny fraction of the cost).  There are also issues with different headcode/destination panel designs and gangways between the cars, which were added at a rebuild.

I guess the only problems are with the detail differences and mouldings required.



So what are the differences between the 115, 116, 117?


Apart from minor differences the major differences are:

Class 115

4 vehicles, two identical power cars, but different power equipment and smaller  brake compartment than class 116 or 117. Both trailer are different, one has toilet, but much is similar.

Class 116/117

Only one power car has brake compartment. Minor differences between 116 and 117 power cars, mostly destination and route indicator panels and power equipment.

The front 2/3rds of the DMBS and DMS are identical. Much of the body is identical to the class 121/122 produced by Dapol. The Dapol chassis would be suitable.

Class 116 TC or TS are virtually identical externally, but differ internally. Very similar to class 115 TS. Class 117 TC is very similar to Class 115 TC externally but varies internally.

As an addition the class 118 is identical to the class 117 apart from the top of the route indication box.


Perhaps it would be better to concentrate on one class rather than trying to do all three?


Do you think there are 1000 modellers to buy one?

Almost certainly; this class always seems to poll highly in the RM Web wishlist.  The Graham Farish Class 101s and 108s sell well, at least in some liveries, as do the Dapol Class 121/122s.

I know I've got three class 108s and five 121/122s including dummies.

The class appeared across large parts of the network in a variety of liveries over a time period of nearly forty years.  Any manufacturer that took over the tooling after the initial run would almost certainly be able to sell additional examples.

Would they accept a sensible price?

I hope so, depends what is considered sensible, looking at the 'rule of thumb' graph from the EMU thread:

I have been thinking about how to answer the difficult question "would they be prepared to pay a reasonable price".  This is tricky...but I'll stick my neck out;

I did a quick analysis of prices of MUs vs. number of carriages, using the BP, BB, 350, Voyager, 4CEP and 3 and 2 car 170s with prices from Hattons.




That would suggest a price of around 125-150, which seems reasonable to me.


Do you know where we could get proper drawings, or is there a real one left to laser scan to be confident of accuracy?


One has been laser scanned for the OO gauge Kernow model and there appear to be lots of reference sources for the class.


Given current N Gauge technology would there be any serious manufacturing compromises

Dapol managed to hide the motor under the window line for the Class 121/122 and Bachman used the Guards compartment to mostly conceal the works on the 101/108.  Either approach seems viable for the 116/117/118.

Offline Zunnan

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 10:52:11 pm »
Given the similarities of the DMS and DMBS between the 116 and 117 it would be possible to represent both classes with little change to the main body tooling, maybe even none. The destination blind/roof indicator changes is easily addressed in a similar manner to how the class 121/122 was done. Two intermediate trailers is all that is really needed, a TCL and a TS, which should cover most eventualities with these classes.

Noted in a lot of photos towards the ends of their lives I've seen what appear to be unclassed TCLs, but these are later additions to units from redundant class 127s and are actually a TSL. The differences are subtle but definitely there!

I'd actually suggest doing both the 116 and 117. Release them as 2 car units with the DMS and DMBS with loose class 116 TS and class 117 TC to extend them and/or hybrid other units. That way it is the buyer who makes the conscious decision about the TC differences without the need to tool the different first class windows. I'd quite happily run a 4 car class 116/117 hybrid. Afterall, in their later years I saw Tyseley churn out everything hybrid from a 4 car unit formed of all class 116 and 118 DMBS to a class 108/114/116/117 Frankenstein with not one vehicle in the same livery.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 03:32:51 pm by Zunnan »
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Offline Mustermark

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2015, 01:28:01 am »
I went and bought 4 class 108s because they were near enough to 118s and a lot better than my modified 101s. I'm sure i would be happy to get replacement 118s (or whichever ran on the Western region) and ebay the 108s. I like the idea of 118s a lot. :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 01:29:18 am by Mustermark »

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 01:45:52 am »
Thanks for starting this thread, I was thinking about doing it myself but don't really have enough detailed knowledge about these classes. They were mentioned on the original Pendolo thread, and I think I'm on record there as saying I'd be interested, which I still am, as I travelled on them a lot in the 80s (Birmingham area).

Personally I'd be OK with some sort of hybrid unit and am not too bothered about exact details (e.g. I'm fairly sure the Tyseley units had the WMPTE logo on them but I can live without that).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 01:49:22 am by railsquid »
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Offline Only Me

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 07:12:38 am »
A WR DMU set is something I would sell my 108's off for, i would want four sets as a minimum...  class 119s ran throughout the WR and the midlands
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 07:26:04 am by Only Me »



ScottyStitch

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 07:27:36 am »
Although the 116s and 117s did make an appearance in Scotland, their arrival was too late for me and in the wrong places.

That said I'd happily put myself down for one to support the project.

It looks like there are plenty examples still extant of 117s , helpful for scanning and for obtaining details.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_117

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« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 08:21:53 am by ScottyStitch »

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 08:17:27 am »
List of preserved units (wow, quite a lot): http://preserved.railcar.co.uk/Class117.html
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Offline Only Me

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 01:15:39 pm »
Doesn't the 116 look very much like the 108 though? One would presume without too much modifying of a tool, Farish could produce this quite easily ?



Online railsquid

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2015, 01:20:43 pm »
Doesn't the 116 look very much like the 108 though? One would presume without too much modifying of a tool, Farish could produce this quite easily ?
The fronts look similar, but to my eyes by no means identical, and the 116/117/118s are high-density slam-door stock with very different side window/door layouts.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2015, 01:23:49 pm by railsquid »
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Offline red_death

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2015, 01:28:05 pm »
The 108 is shorter than the 116/117/118 family by 6 or 7 ft!

As railsquid says the 116/117/118 family are the high density suburban stock. You're more likely to go from a 121 to a 116.

Most of them were built by BR at Derby (though some were BRCW or Pressed Steel presumably using plans supplied by BR) so it is no surprise that there are family resemblances!

Cheers, Mike



Offline Zunnan

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2015, 01:31:46 pm »
Doesn't the 116 look very much like the 108 though? One would presume without too much modifying of a tool, Farish could produce this quite easily ?

The only similarity is the cab and destination blind, otherwise they are as different as chalk and cheese. The 108 is on a shorter 58'1" long chassis with a limited number of doors to access the vehicle. Windows are sliding vent type. The 116/117 are on a 64 foot chassis and have a door to every seating bay with the saloon windows non ventilated. Appearance wise it is like comparing a Mk1 corridor coach with a Mk1 suburban.
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Offline Only Me

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2015, 01:34:57 pm »
My apologies i meant the front which is the hardest part to make in CAD :).. It would be quite easy to reproduce the sides and roof in CAD... Did these ever make it as far south as Plymouth?



Offline Karhedron

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2015, 01:44:51 pm »
I would definitely be up for a 3-car unit. I model the west-country so the 118 would be most appealing to me. However I would be happy with any of the 116/117/118 family. I think it would be better to produce an accurate model of a specific class (or possibly even 2 if Zunnan's assessment is correct) than to try and produce a generic model.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline johnlambert

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - Class 116/117/118 DMU
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2015, 01:46:01 pm »
My apologies i meant the front which is the hardest part to make in CAD :).. It would be quite easy to reproduce the sides and roof in CAD... Did these ever make it as far south as Plymouth?

Taken from DMU Compendium by Colin Boocock:
"The '118s' were split between Plymouth Laira, Bristol St Phillip's Marsh and Reading depots.  Three Class 118 intermediate trailer cars were transferred to make up three-car 117 units.  The resultant two-car power-twin '118s' saw service on low-trafficked West Country branch lines."

So, yes they did. :)

 

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