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Author Topic: Dapol HST motor access  (Read 3672 times)

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Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2014, 12:19:47 pm »
I'll check that too..thanks.

Offline RussellH

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2014, 12:33:07 pm »
Wheel rim recess - I use the same milling tool as I used to open up the 156 motor to mill a recess for the wheel rims (it was easier to mill a hole in the 156 than strip that glued together pain to bits). Place a strip of insulating tape over the open drive worm recess to save filling it with plastic swarf. Quick and efficient but not as quick as getting it right in the first place. Not too sure its all a design thing although it would have been close anyway - I think its more to do with slop in the wheel sets - pinch up the bogie to support the wheel better and its less of a problem.

Although possible that the bogies are causing drag (try the clean and roll down a slope to check) the hot motor is more likely to be muck in the comm. Only way to check is the current measurement. If its high current then its good news you have solvent and a u/s bath. Pop the motor in for a session and spray it out with full evap solvent after. Without letting it dry run it out of the chassis as fast as possible which aids ejecting any remaining muck from the comm gaps - ideally while monitoring the current - then you'll see your progress.

It might last or may need a polish - easy enough by which ever method you choose.

With cheap ammeters from ebay its so easy to keep an eye on things, something like this 500mA
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-0-500mA-Current-Panel-AMP-Meter-Gauge-Class-2-5-85C1-/290913448743
enables monitoring of most permutations of stock fitted to both track on bridgbury and has saved a couple locos from total meltdown
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DC-0-500mA-Current-Panel-AMP-Meter-Gauge-Class-2-5-85C1-/290913448743
200mA ideal for testing.

not that many useful tools you can get for <4 delivered.

Regards
Russ
Repairs - not everything has to be sent away - you can fix most thing's yourself. Ask and help will be provided.

Waiting for the RTR version? - why not try a kit?

My layout, Bridgebury Gate now has its own website...
http://www.bridgeburygate.co.uk/

and the 3DR shop where you'll also find the NGF MPV, assorted cabs etc...
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/3dr_designs_for_n_gauge

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2014, 12:56:28 pm »
Thanks. My layout is in my office at work (if you can believe that). I have a multimeter at work but when I went to use it as an ammeter..nothing. Come to find out fuse had blown. I will take my other one from home in on Monday and take some measurements.

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2014, 06:40:41 pm »
I hope I'm not beating this subject to death but if I end up separating the split chassis it appears to me there are four places to release:


1. Push plastic hooks back to let go of metal recess.
2. Push plastic hooks forward to let go of metal recess.
3. Lever outwards to let go of metal stud
4. Lift off???..not sure here...

Am I missing anything? I presume the whole pull will then drop away from the metal split chassis?

Offline RussellH

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2014, 06:59:23 pm »
Hi Grahame

Take the bogies off.
1 & 2 (and the opposite side) release the base plate (runs the whole length with the fuel tank battery box on it) put it out of the way.
3, 4 and another two identical the other end (one under the dcc socket) allow the chassis halves to part - ideally have the wiring disconnected before this step.

Regards
Russ


Repairs - not everything has to be sent away - you can fix most thing's yourself. Ask and help will be provided.

Waiting for the RTR version? - why not try a kit?

My layout, Bridgebury Gate now has its own website...
http://www.bridgeburygate.co.uk/

and the 3DR shop where you'll also find the NGF MPV, assorted cabs etc...
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/3dr_designs_for_n_gauge

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2014, 03:25:24 am »
OK I measured, with a transformer setting that gives 7.8 volts on the track (with no load), 160 mA by jumping voltage straight onto copper strips with bogies removed. It’s time to go inside this. I did a total strip down and separated the chassis. I see what you are saying now about wiring. I did not unsolder anything because I have neither the equipment nor skill to reattach. Even down to this level it is still not possible to access the commutator. Bad, bad design Dapol..cleaning the commutator is the most basic maintenance thing you can do to an electric train. I refrained from drilling a hole in the plastic surround (thanks for the photos though). I was able to do the following:

1.   Clean a lot of oil and yellow grease from all over..including the worm gear pockets. Lots of that yellow gunk.
2.   Cleaned all excess oil and grot from worm gears and drive shaft.
3.   Both bogies took a bath in n-pentane, very safe, very volatile degreasing solvent. Totally harmless to metal and plastic. Bogies were sparingly reoiled. Now they ran much more freely.
4.   Cleaned all copper contactor strips.
5.     Telltale signs of wheels rubbing the bottom. A few very careful seconds with a grinding head on a micro-drill took care of that.


After this I really have to say that it was not much different..same speed, same current value and same..quite warm after running for about 30 mins. I am glad I did this but I do not think I achieved much. Knowing how long I have had it I find it hard to believe the commutator is very bad.

Meanwhile still waiting for the first email from DCC Supplies. Although I have bought the Dapol Autotrain from Hattons..I have to say I am not at all impressed with this company.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 11:47:24 am by grahame »

Offline RussellH

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 08:29:47 am »
Hi Grahame,

160mA isnt overly bad but could be lower especially with no wheels.

You've done all the items usually required and I suspect you might find it runs differently now especially at slow speeds due the work you've done. The only other step you can try is to add solvent to the motor or pop the whole motor in the solvent. Exercise the motor to work in the solvent. Then run it fast as poss while measuring the current which should reduce.

Odd thought - Is the rest of the stock free rolling? or does it still get warm running on its own?

Regards
Russ
Repairs - not everything has to be sent away - you can fix most thing's yourself. Ask and help will be provided.

Waiting for the RTR version? - why not try a kit?

My layout, Bridgebury Gate now has its own website...
http://www.bridgeburygate.co.uk/

and the 3DR shop where you'll also find the NGF MPV, assorted cabs etc...
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/3dr_designs_for_n_gauge

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2014, 11:43:50 am »
Odd thought - Is the rest of the stock free rolling? or does it still get warm running on its own?

Hahaha..not odd at all..sometimes the most obvious things slip by. They are quite free. yes the coaches roll quite freely.

Question: Do the bogies from the unpowered car pull out in the same way as the power car? If so I think I'll give them a bath in n-pentane too  :)

Offline RussellH

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 12:01:34 pm »
H grahame

Yes they do (and they contain useful spares for the powered car if you have any wonky gears).

Regards
Russ
Repairs - not everything has to be sent away - you can fix most thing's yourself. Ask and help will be provided.

Waiting for the RTR version? - why not try a kit?

My layout, Bridgebury Gate now has its own website...
http://www.bridgeburygate.co.uk/

and the 3DR shop where you'll also find the NGF MPV, assorted cabs etc...
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/3dr_designs_for_n_gauge

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 12:02:40 pm »
I suspect that this power car was like this from new..although at the time I was not aware of the heating issue. If I had I think I would have done an exchange with Hatton's. My problem is that being over in the "colonies" its quite a long and expensive proposition..I have done it before and Hatton's ARE VERY GOOD about this.....covered return postage too...bravo to them. I love that shop.  :D

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 12:04:34 pm »

....and they contain useful spares for the powered car if you have any wonky gears.....


EXCELLENT thought!!!! Cheers  :claphappy:

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2014, 12:30:13 pm »
I was able to apply a tiny amount of oil from a needle wipe to the shaft of the electric motor beside each of the fly wheels.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 12:42:37 pm »
I suspect that this power car was like this from new..

To be honest, all Dapol stuff seems to run like this, even when it's healthy. Even steam locos that draw only 80mA when running still get warm in my experience.

Having said that, if you can minimise the current draw this will minimise the heating effect and maximise the motor lifespan. I think these motors are quite hardy to getting hot - the failed HST I had ran so hot it couldn't be picked up (300mA) and even after running it for an hour like this in a last ditch attempt to clear and cure it, it still did not burn out. Went back and was replaced though....

Sounds like yours does need commutator treatment though. If you don't like the idea of drilling (I just know my hand would slip and the motor would get wrecked - Russ is a skilled man!) then you can dismantle the motors easily by removing the brushes and then the black plastic commutator surround (and then drill if you so wish for future access, without any risk).

I agree that this motor would really benefit from having an open area to access and maintain the commutator.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 01:18:28 pm »
Question: When I was inside this..I pulled back the black foam sheeting (right in the middle on the first photo I posted) and underneath I saw a metal stud like thing with a tiny Philips head screw...was that the brush of the motor? there was one on the other side.
Mine has never been so hot you could not pick it up..nowhere close...

« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 01:19:32 pm by grahame »

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 02:16:19 pm »
Question: When I was inside this..I pulled back the black foam sheeting (right in the middle on the first photo I posted) and underneath I saw a metal stud like thing with a tiny Philips head screw...was that the brush of the motor? there was one on the other side.


It's the brush retaining screw - behind it are a spring and the brush.

Mine has never been so hot you could not pick it up..nowhere close...

Yes, ther replacement runs more normally, gets warm like all the rest, but not that hot.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

 

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