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Author Topic: Dapol HST motor access  (Read 4042 times)

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Offline grahame

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Dapol HST motor access
« on: April 24, 2014, 12:07:58 pm »
Further to discussions on this thread:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2097;area=showposts;sa=topics;start=15

Mine is running fairly well. Has anyone had the chassis of one of these apart such that the shaft of the motor can be accessed? I want to very carefully lubricate the motor bearing. This worked wonders on other locos..very carefully of course. I can't see how to access this one.

Cheers

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2014, 12:14:02 pm »
Haha..wait a sec..I just noticed..I think you can do this by simply pulling out the bogies as shown by my own photo. Will report back later  :dunce:

Online Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2014, 01:11:57 pm »
You'll be able to get at the worm shafts by removing the bogies, but unlikely to be able to actually get at the motor bearings themselves this way - it'll probably need the chassis to be split to gain access.

I'd question if it's worth it - I've not seen a great difference in lubricating bearings on these Dapol motors - a little, but not a significant change (slightly quieter is about all).

What does tend to make a difference is cleaning and polishing the commutator.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2014, 02:35:10 pm »
Can you give details on how to split the chassis on this loco?

Offline RussellH

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2014, 09:26:32 pm »
Hi Grahame

Briefly and from memory...

Remove bogies (pull out)
Unclip the base plate with buffers on - you can see the clips on the side of the chassis
Its now easier if you unsolder one of the motor wires (underside of DCC pcb) and wiring to pickups on one side of the chassis.
Remove the clips holding the chassis halves together - they break really easy. (Cant remember if there are also any screws - don’t think so)
Separate the two chassis halves.

Some info here on comm polishing...
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11186.msg139817#msg139817

What problems are you having to warrant this level of strip down? And do you have an ammeter in use?

Regards
Russ
Repairs - not everything has to be sent away - you can fix most thing's yourself. Ask and help will be provided.

Waiting for the RTR version? - why not try a kit?

My layout, Bridgebury Gate now has its own website...
http://www.bridgeburygate.co.uk/

and the 3DR shop where you'll also find the NGF MPV, assorted cabs etc...
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/3dr_designs_for_n_gauge

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2014, 11:20:09 am »
"What problems are you having to warrant this level of strip down? And do you have an ammeter in use?"


For some time now I have thought it is running slower and warmer than it did when it was new. I have done some routine cleaning but want to clean the commutator and carefully lube the motor shaft bearings. From my experience with other N scale locos this is very beneficial. I have not checked it with an ammeter yet.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 11:24:14 am by grahame »

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2014, 12:08:23 pm »
"Some info here on comm polishing...
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11186.msg139817#msg139817"


Is it really necessary to drill a hole in the plastic surround to clean the commutator? What an absurd design Dapol!!! I just bought their new Class 18XX Autotrain from Hatton's. If I had read this before, I would not order anything ever again from them.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2014, 12:10:01 pm by grahame »

Offline Steven B

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2014, 12:41:30 pm »
Have you tried running it without the lights connected? I've returned several Dapol diesel and electrics because a fault with the lighting circuit was causing running problems.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

Online Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2014, 01:42:53 pm »
"Some info here on comm polishing...
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=11186.msg139817#msg139817"


Is it really necessary to drill a hole in the plastic surround to clean the commutator? What an absurd design Dapol!!! I just bought their new Class 18XX Autotrain from Hatton's. If I had read this before, I would not order anything ever again from them.


No. you can dismantle the motor by removing the black plastic part - remove the motor from chassis, then flywheel from that end, then brushes and springs and then finally the black commutator surround. This will expost the commutator (I guess it could then be drilled for future access).

The 14xx autotrain uses a completely different motor (small sealed can).

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2014, 01:43:58 pm »
For some time now I have thought it is running slower and warmer than it did when it was new.

These motors do tend to run warmer than Farish even when healthy. Key is the current consumption - if it's high then there's a problem.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2014, 03:09:37 am »
I spent quite a long time today cleaning everything possible. I took off both drive car bogies and cleaned the wheels individually ..very well ..all bright and shiny. I lubed the unpowered car which was dragging a bit. After a lot of messing around I got it running (5 cars total) at a scale up speed of 120 mph (4 feet in 3.3 seconds) when 11 volts applied (measured with voltmeter across the tracks). I would describe it as quite warm after a lengthy run..but not really hot..at least through the plastic body.

"These motors do tend to run warmer than Farish even when healthy. "

Good information - thanks...I agree.


Next thing will be to measure current draw. My multimeter had a blown fuse so will use my other one.

Not bad really I think.

I am very careful to never apply more than 12 volts to my N scale locos...so measure voltage across tracks when they are running, to be sure.

I don't think it's bad enough to take it all apart yet..but I would like to clean the commutator. May be later on. running with lights disconnected did not make any difference.

Thanks for all the in put.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2014, 03:13:18 am by grahame »

Offline RussellH

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2014, 04:20:43 am »
Hi Grahame

Well thats good news then but "quite warm" is not the best news Iv heard. Suspect both Al and myself will be interested in ammeter readings when you get the chance. Typically around 130mA flat out seems average. One or two down to as low as 80mA but anything over 200mA and thats not going to end well.

If your concerned about drag then...
1) check to see if the wheel rims are touching on the underside of the chassis (leave shiny witness marks on the black plastic if its been happening) - happens to the front and rear wheels only. No idea why this is but it happens. Probably too much slop in the bogie allowing the pin point of the axle to ride up etc.
2) try to remove as much grease as possible from the drive worms, then de grease the bogies totally. If you get this right the bogie (removed from loco) will roll down a gentle incline on its own. if not check for tight gears - seen some with flash from the moulding making them tight in the bogie. Re oil (not grease) sparingly with synthetic.
3) see if any grease has got into the gap between the motor and the flywheels. Had one of these. Washed the whole motor in solvent and re oiled once dry.

Good luck!
Russ
Repairs - not everything has to be sent away - you can fix most thing's yourself. Ask and help will be provided.

Waiting for the RTR version? - why not try a kit?

My layout, Bridgebury Gate now has its own website...
http://www.bridgeburygate.co.uk/

and the 3DR shop where you'll also find the NGF MPV, assorted cabs etc...
http://www.shapeways.com/shops/3dr_designs_for_n_gauge

Offline grahame

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2014, 11:39:53 am »
If the current draw is high, then I will make a more extensive clean of the bogies and gears....probably in my special solvent (harmless to all plastic and metal) possibly putting the whole lot in the small beaker, then ultra-sonicating and blowing with compressed air. This is a superb way to clean loco parts as long as you can separate from the motor like you can in this case. Need to reoil after since all oil and grease are gone. Pulling it apart is my absolute last resort.

Dapol and DCC supplies do not seem concerned about this, I can barely get them to respond to my emails. There is no way they can say this is an isolated incident..numerous examples of this problem. Since I am in Houston there is no way I am sending it to them just to take a look at it. Would cost over half it's value in postage and take 2 months.
Graham Farish CS is WAY better..they sent me a free replacement motor for my Class 04 which was out of warranty on time but had very light use...bravo to them :)

Online Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2014, 11:52:30 am »
If the current draw is high, then I will make a more extensive clean of the bogies and gears....probably in my special solvent (harmless to all plastic and metal) possibly putting the whole lot in the small beaker, then ultra-sonicating and blowing with compressed air. This is a superb way to clean loco parts as long as you can separate from the motor like you can in this case. Need to reoil after since all oil and grease are gone. Pulling it apart is my absolute last resort

If the current draw is high the place to look is the motor almost always - commutator clean and polish.

Often it's clogged with brush carbon and I've also seen a couple where there was factory grease on the commutator (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) - I have no idea how they managed to get it in there, but it's really not good!

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Dr Al

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Re: Dapol HST motor access
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2014, 11:56:45 am »
1) check to see if the wheel rims are touching on the underside of the chassis (leave shiny witness marks on the black plastic if its been happening) - happens to the front and rear wheels only. No idea why this is but it happens. Probably too much slop in the bogie allowing the pin point of the axle to ride up etc.

Russ makes an excellent point with this one - this is a design fault with the model IMHO - there is virtually no clearance between the wheel flanges and the black main chassis moulding. The slightest bend in the moulding, often caused by the lighting wiring which is crammed in at the front end will cause the flanges to touch and drag on it - even slightly uneven trackwork can cause this.

I'm gradually going round and filing out clearance slots on my HSTs to sort this out.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

 

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