Identifying Kit Wagons

[CarriageShed]

I started up the RTR version of this thread and found that it was pretty successful. More research for that lead to finding more and more wagon kits, so although I'm not particularly familiar with what's available, I thought I'd start off this thread with a few kits that I've found:

NGS Cat No NGK003, LMS 10T Outside-Framed Box Van, Diagram ? Built ? Ex-Midland Railway Diagram D362.
Alternative numbering: 3158, 3906

NGS Cat No NGK018, LMS 12T Vented Box Van, Diagram 1676, Built 1924-28. Also comes with a non-vented version.
Alternative numbering: 91548, 117870

NGS Cat No NGK018, LMS 12T Non-Vented Box Van, Diagram 1664, Built 1924-26. Comes with vented version.
Alternative numbering: 93847, 235849

NGS Cat No NGK021, SR 12T Box Van, Diagrams 1428/29, & 1452/55/58, Built 1929-c.1950?. The kit builds three different versions of the SR standard 10' wb 12T box van: even-planked on standard RCH 9' wb chassis (Diagram 1429, from 1929); even-planked and uneven-planked on a 10' wb chassis, all vacuum-fitted  (Diagram 1458, 1936-39); 2+2-planked, unfitted (handbrake only) and vacuum-fitted (vb) (Diagram 1455, 1939-45); plywood-bodied, all (hb) (Diagram 1452, 1945-51); all remaining (hb) vans were fitted with (vb) after 1956. Some vans to SR Diagram 1458 were also built c.1944 for the LMS (some had 2+2 doors): LMS Diagram 2078 (apparently). Some vans to SR Diagram 1455 were also built in 1943 as GWR Diagram V35. Some Diagram 1452 vans built after Nationalisation appeared with B-prefixed numbers (BR Diagram 1/202).
Alternative numbering: Diagram 1428 (1929-1936) - 47491, 48323; Diagram 1458 (1936-39) - 47001-100, 48277-322, 49140-67/69-230; Diagram 1455 (1939-45) - 44719-988, 54001-250 (hb) and 49427-951, 64921-5280 (vb); Diagram 1452 (1945-51) - 50901-1000, 51351-400, 54251-500, 56501-7010. LMS Diagram 2078 (c.1944) - M523xxx series. GWR Diagram V35 (1943) - W144xxx series. BR Diagram 1/202 (Post-1948) - B752354-753029 series.


P&D Marsh Cat No A501, SR 12T 1 Plank Fixed Side Stone Truck, Diagram 1308, Built 1892-1910.
Alternative numbering: 7570, 7583

P&D Marsh Cat No A502, LMS ??T Bolster Wagon, Diagram ? Built ?
Alternative numbering: ?

P&D Marsh Cat No A553, SR 10T Twin Vent Van, Diagram 1429, Built 1926-1947.
Alternative numbering: 44611, 52783


Ultima Cat No LSW62, SR 10T High Ended Open Wagon, Diagram 1309, Built LSWR 1881. A four plank round-ended wagon. Many were built in the 1870s-1890s and then scrapped, to be replaced by a wagon of the same diagram but with later features (such as different axleboxes) but bearing exactly the same running number. At least 2726 were taken into SR services, although many were scrapped in the mid and late 1920s. Some examples survived into BR days. although often with the rounded ends removed.
Alternative numbering: Between 435 & 5071, & 6424/25/29, 7180-99, 7202-21/79-7378, 7563/64/67/69 inclusive

As you can see, there are a few gaps in the information, and I'm sure that a lot more could be added.

The RTR version of this thread can be found here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=19401.0

Peter

[CarriageShed]

And here's more kits, from Gramodels, who supply very few details in their catalogue:

Gramodels Cat No WN05, SR 8/10T Ventilated Meat Van Diagram 1481 Built LSWR c.1891-1912. Vacuum pipes should be added to this diagram.
Alternative running numbers: 51001-9/11-14/16-28/30-33/3537/39/40/42/44/45/51/53-56/60/62/64/67-69/72-74/76-84/86-51103/5-8/11-16/18-25/27-44 (all 8T), 51157 (10T)

Gramodels Cat No WN06, SR 10T Insulated Goods Van Diagram 1410 Built LSWR 1885-1904. A mixture of timber and steel underframes and with low roof.
Alternative running numbers: Between 42281 & 43899, & 43930-44106/19-38/54-44228/72-74 inclusive

Gramodels Cat No WN12, SR 10T Cattle Wagon Diagram ? Built LSWR ?
Alternative running numbers: ?

Gramodels Cat No WN15, SR 10T Ventilated Butter Van Diagram 1410 Built LSWR 1885-1904. Southern Wagons Vol 1 suggests this should be Diagram 1413 but the specifications are almost entirely identical anyway. Timber underframe, low roof (except 43925, with steel underframe).
Alternative running numbers: (Diagram 1413) 43900-15/17-29

Gramodels Cat No WN16, SR 12T Low Machine Well Wagon Diagram 1673 Built LSWR 1921.
Alternative running numbers: 61009/11-13/19



Gramodels Cat No WN01, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Version 1. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN02, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Version 2. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN03, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Version 1 sheeted. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN04, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Version 2 sheeted. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN07, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Open Version 1 with sheet rail. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN08, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Open Version 2 with sheet rail. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN09, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Version 1 with steel end-posts. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)

Gramodels Cat No WN10, SR 12/15T 8 Plank Wagon Diagram 1316 Built LSWR/SR 1904-25. Version 2 with steel end-posts. Only the last batch of 100 in 1925 had timber underframes and a capacity of 12T.
Alternative running numbers: 7987-9078, 9079-9128 (Ex-LSWR), 9141-9340 (SR)


Much of the identification has very kindly been provided by Graham of Gramodels.

[EtchedPixels]

Ultima Cat No LSW82, SR ??T High Ended Open Wagon, Diagram ?, Built LSWR 1881.
Alternative numbering: ?

I'm not aware of any SR diagram number, or indeed if they lasted that long.

[CarriageShed]

I'm not aware of any SR diagram number, or indeed if they lasted that long.

I think I found it. SR Diagram 1309, which covered a multitude of minor variations in axlebox, brakes, and sheet rails (or lack of). Built between 1870s-1910s, with older wagons often being scrapped and replaced by almost identical wagons with minor variations. At least 2726 were taken into SR service, although many were scrapped in the later 1920s.

I have at least one photograph dated to 1935 (in An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol 1). The Ultima four-plank model would seem to match this diagram about as accurately as I can make out (the Ultima photo is a little small on this monitor, so it's hard to be any more certain).

[EtchedPixels]

I'm not aware of any SR diagram number, or indeed if they lasted that long.

I think I found it. SR Diagram 1309, which covered a multitude of minor variations in axlebox, brakes, and sheet rails (or lack of). Built between 1870s-1910s, with older wagons often being scrapped and replaced by almost identical wagons with minor variations. At least 2726 were taken into SR service, although many were scrapped in the later 1920s.

I have at least one photograph dated to 1935 (in An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol 1). The Ultima four-plank model would seem to match this diagram about as accurately as I can make out (the Ultima photo is a little small on this monitor, so it's hard to be any more certain).

The way to be sure is to check the end framing. That batch of wagons is almost unique in that the framing for the ends is on the outside of the wagon and the sides extend to the end of the framing.

[Gooner53]

And here's one more kit for now:

Gramodels Cat No 00414, SR ??T Covered Goods Van, Diagram 1410, Built ?
Alternative running numbers: ?

Pete,

This one is an 4mm/OO kit. The Gramodels 2mm/N kits are in the Cat No range WN01 through to WN17. Not enough information in the catalog to identify them.

Nick

[CarriageShed]

This one is an 4mm/OO kit. The Gramodels 2mm/N kits are in the Cat No range WN01 through to WN17. Not enough information in the catalog to identify them.

Thanks, Nick. Not quite sure how I misread that list, but I've made corrections now. Actually, there are even more questions to answer now!

[CarriageShed]

The way to be sure is to check the end framing. That batch of wagons is almost unique in that the framing for the ends is on the outside of the wagon and the sides extend to the end of the framing.

Probably the only way to be sure is to check the line drawings against the model. The book contains the line drawings, but I don't have the model (yet, at least).

[Gooner53]

Thanks, Nick. Not quite sure how I misread that list, but I've made corrections now. Actually, there are even more questions to answer now!

Well they're all ex LSWR, that's the starting point! I've got all the models but must admit that they are difficult to identify against An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol 1 which is really all there is available in book form for ex-LSWR stock. Could always ask Graham Baker if has the LSWR diagram numbers....

Nick

[talisman56]

NGS Cat No NGK021, SR 12T Box Van, Diagram 1428/29 (Even Planking), Built ?
Alternative numbering: 47491, 48323

NGS Cat No NGK021, SR 12T Box Van, Diagram 1428/29 (Uneven Planking), Built ?
Alternative numbering: 49427

NGS kit NGK21 builds three different versions of the SR standard 10' wb 12T box van; construction started in 1929 with ones built on the standard RCH 9' wb chassis (Diagram 1429, even-planked). From 1936, the standard vans were built on a 10' wb chassis.

Diagram 1458 (built 1936-39) even-planked, all vacuum-fitted, possible numbers include 47001-100, 48277-322, 49140-67/69-230
Diagram 1455 (built 1939-45) 2+2-planked, unfitted (handbrake only) and vacuum-fitted (vb), numbers include 44719-988, 54001-250 (hb) and 49427-951, 64921-5280 (vb).
Diagram 1452 (built 1945-51) plywood-bodied, all (hb), possible numbers include 50901-1000, 51351-400, 54251-500, 56501-7010.

All remaining (hb) vans were fitted with (vb) after 1956.

Info taken from NGK21 kit notes.

Some vans to SR Diag.1458 were also built c1944 for the LMS (some had 2+2 doors); LMS diagram appears to be no. 2078. They carried numbers in the M523xxx series.
Some vans to SR Diag.1455 were also built in 1943 for the GWR; GWR diagram V35, number series W144xxx.
Some of the Diag.1452 vans built after nationalisation (BR Diag.1/202) appeared with B-prefixed numbers in BR number series B752354-3029.

[Gooner53]

Thanks, Nick. Not quite sure how I misread that list, but I've made corrections now. Actually, there are even more questions to answer now!

Well they're all ex LSWR, that's the starting point! I've got all the models but must admit that they are difficult to identify against An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol 1 which is really all there is available in book form for ex-LSWR stock. Could always ask Graham Baker if has the LSWR diagram numbers....

Nick

I think we're actually going to struggle to identify the Gramodels wagons and then track them through to SR days and beyond, if they got that far. Gramodels actually list 8 versions of the ex-LSWR 12/15 ton open as opposed to just the 2 versions Pete has listed above. When I asked Graham to clarify what all the 8 versions of open 12/15T wagons were he replied -

"With LSWR wagons of that capacity they were built randomly with wood end posts or steel and the top door was either fitted with straight hinges or crossed ones.  The models reflect the range.  The sheeted wagons have exposed ends of either steel or wooden end posts.  It means that it's possible to have a rake of 10 or 12 wagons and they all be different."

I'm not even going to attempt to find diagram and running numbers for that lot in LSWR days never mind SR times if they made it that far!

Nick

[CarriageShed]

Well they're all ex LSWR, that's the starting point! I've got all the models but must admit that they are difficult to identify against An Illustrated History of Southern Wagons Vol 1 which is really all there is available in book form for ex-LSWR stock. Could always ask Graham Baker if has the LSWR diagram numbers....

Coincidentally that's the only wagon-identification book I have!

Email sent to Graham. Fingers crossed that I get a detailed reply.

[CarriageShed]

NGS kit NGK21 builds three different versions of the SR standard 10' wb 12T box van; construction started in 1929 with ones built on the standard RCH 9' wb chassis (Diagram 1429, even-planked). From 1936, the standard vans were built on a 10' wb chassis.

Thanks very much for that. Only the 1929 even planked SR vans are valid for me, but I'll add everything to the list for everyone else.

[talisman56]

NGS kit NGK21 builds three different versions of the SR standard 10' wb 12T box van; construction started in 1929 with ones built on the standard RCH 9' wb chassis (Diagram 1429, even-planked). From 1936, the standard vans were built on a 10' wb chassis.

Thanks very much for that. Only the 1929 even planked SR vans are valid for me, but I'll add everything to the list for everyone else.

The 1929 vans were on a 9' chassis and only had one vent in each end, so the NGS kit will need a bit of fettling if it were used as the basis for those.

HTH

[CarriageShed]

I think we're actually going to struggle to identify the Gramodels wagons and then track them through to SR days and beyond, if they got that far. Gramodels actually list 8 versions of the ex-LSWR 12/15 ton open as opposed to just the 2 versions Pete has listed above. When I asked Graham to clarify what all the 8 versions of open 12/15T wagons were he replied -

"With LSWR wagons of that capacity they were built randomly with wood end posts or steel and the top door was either fitted with straight hinges or crossed ones.  The models reflect the range.  The sheeted wagons have exposed ends of either steel or wooden end posts.  It means that it's possible to have a rake of 10 or 12 wagons and they all be different."

I'm not even going to attempt to find diagram and running numbers for that lot in LSWR days never mind SR times if they made it that far!

You beat me to it. Is it safe to assume that they're all high ended wagons if they're LSWR models?

I think I'll have to try a few and see which diagrams they match up best to when I see them. They are certainly valid for my period, so I'll add them to the wish list.