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Your Layout and Models => Layout Construction => Topic started by: Leon on June 17, 2018, 09:11:54 pm

Title: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 17, 2018, 09:11:54 pm
Here it is! For better or for worse, the planning is finished. Of course, there will be more changes, but this is as close as I can get to the image in my mind of what I want it to be. Please don't tell me it won't work!  :D If it won't, I'll know that soon enough and will make whatever adjustments are necessary to get the trains running.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-170618210328.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 17, 2018, 09:48:56 pm
Father's Day brought me an Amazon Gift Certificate. I'd like to buy a good history of the GWR. Any suggestions?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 17, 2018, 10:51:47 pm
A look at Amazon UK shows quite a few, for your period I would suggest David Wragg's "GWR Handbook" covering 1923 to 1947, don't know if it is also available in USA.

I have his Southern Handbook, it covers most of the relevant topics, history, routes, locos coaches, some stations., mainly text with some pictures

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on June 18, 2018, 02:42:01 am
Hi Leon,

Am no good at track planning and know nothing about GWR books but just to say hi and looking forward to your build.

Looks like an interesting one.

From what you've said on other posts, you take care now.

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 18, 2018, 07:37:31 am
Hi Leon
That looks really interesting. Quite an unusual track plan, which is quite an achievement in itself. Its not my era or area but interesting all the same.

Just a couple of questions; where does the yellow line go to? Is there another space that you havent drawn?
And I have to ask about a fiddle yard. You dont have one, and that is great if it works for you - its your railway. But if you are like the rest of us, you will have far more stock than will fit on your railway. Just wondering where it will get stored?

Anyway thanks for posting such an interesting concept. Ive often fantacised about Westbury as a possiblity for modelling in modern image.

Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 04:47:24 pm
A look at Amazon UK shows quite a few, for your period I would suggest David Wragg's "GWR Handbook" covering 1923 to 1947, don't know if it is also available in USA.

I have his Southern Handbook, it covers most of the relevant topics, history, routes, locos coaches, some stations., mainly text with some pictures

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book (https://www.amazon.co.uk/GWR-Handbook-Western-Railway-1923-47-ebook/dp/B071HHCBP5/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1529271295&sr=1-11&keywords=gwr+railway+book)

Thanks so much for your reponse. It vendicates an action I've already taken. I've ordered all for of the regional handbooks by David Wragg. Two were available at Amazon and two are being shipped from the UK. I'm still trying to decide between several GWR specific histories.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 04:55:27 pm
From what you've said on other posts, you take care now.

Weave, I guess you're referring to my health. Like all of us post 70 guys, I've my share of ailments, but none that I consider merits complaining! I DO take care, and my decision to build a train layout is part of it. Happiness fuels both our mental and physical health, and you guys (and gals?) seem to be very happy people.  :)  Thanks for your post and please watch out for what this octogenarian (almost) accoomplishes in the weeks and months ahead - if anything! I'll never come close to the quality that I'm seeing produced by so many in this Forum, but I'll have just as much fun.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 18, 2018, 05:06:44 pm
It is all about enjoyment.
Have fun with your layout Leon.
Iím really looking forward to this as I grew up in Trowbridge and spent many hours at Westbury (and bunking the shed).
Iím not as old as you but old enough to remember everyday steam and the huge variety of locomotives to be seen at Westbury.
Enjoy.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 05:17:14 pm
Just a couple of questions; where does the yellow line go to? Is there another space that you havent drawn?
And I have to ask about a fiddle yard. You dont have one, and that is great if it works for you - its your railway. But if you are like the rest of us, you will have far more stock than will fit on your railway. Just wondering where it will get stored?

Kirky, I really don't like fiddle yards, and I'll not be adding too much rolling stock to the inventory I have already. Everything I have will fit nicely on the layout. If I live long enough, I may complete this layout, but it is planned to occupy me for two years - after which I can reconsider. If my circumstances don't change too much, I've plenty of room to join another board of equal size.

The yellow line is the Bristol to Salisbury line (and on to Southampton, I guess). I'll be running a tank loco and autocoach between Dilton Marsh and Trowbridge. The limitations of my board require distortion of direction, but I'm only trying to "suggest" the destinations. I am attempting to replicate two or three features on the Trowbridge end - the curve after the station and the road crossing before, plus probably a couple of buildings (at some point). Dilton Marsh was just a halt during the time frame I'm modeling, but it will be as realistic as I can make it in the space available.

My intention is to run a Castle Class 5044 Earl of Dunraven pulling four coaches on the up express line, and a goods train on the down line (London via Pewsey to Taunton and Weymouth).

Thanks for your reponse and questions.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 05:22:49 pm
Iím not as old as you but old enough to remember everyday steam and the huge variety of locomotives to be seen at Westbury.

As time permits, I'd really enjoying hearing more about your time in Trowbridge and Westbury, and details about the rolling stock that you observed passing through. The most vivid memory I have of the steam era is the sight of a line of multi liveried locos in Caledonian Station, Edinburgh. I walked through the station two or three times a week in the early '60s.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 18, 2018, 06:30:46 pm
Leon

Many thanks. I think that Iíll drop you a Personal Message if thatís ok re locomotives and stock around Westbury.
I think it might be a bit detailed for the forum.
Iíll send it in the next day or so.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 18, 2018, 06:32:19 pm
Quote
The most vivid memory I have of the steam era is the sight of a line of multi liveried locos in Caledonian Station, Edinburgh.

It was even better before nationalisation in 1948, each of the 4 companies had their own livery, admittedly 3 of them were green but different shades of green, freight locos were all black. Coaches were also in distinct liveries, LMS red, LNER teak, SR green, GWR chocolate and cream.

I saw my first diesel about 1960, 3 car DMUs running between Wellington and Lapworth, but still plenty of steam about. My main interest however is 1930s Southern Railway steam although I didn't take much notice until about 1940.

In my school days  (1940s) the Southern line from  Waterloo to Weymouth ran past the school sports field, but close enough to the class rooms for us to just about make out the numbers - those of us interested had our Ian Allan ABC books in our desks so we could mark off the numbers. I've still got a copy of the 1943 edition, getting a bit tattered though! Quite a few on Ebay, prices a bit more than the 1/- when new!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Allan_(publisher) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Allan_(publisher))
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 18, 2018, 09:11:36 pm
Mike, thanks for sharing your experiences and the wikipedia article about Ian Allan.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 18, 2018, 10:37:38 pm
No problem Leon, us old'uns gotta keep you young colonials educated  :whistle: ::) :hmmm: :whiteflag:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 19, 2018, 07:32:39 am

Kirky, I really don't like fiddle yards, and I'll not be adding too much rolling stock to the inventory I have already.
Thanks for your reponse and questions.

Leon
Hi Leon
Good for you! I t really is your railway and you should run it like you want.
I wish I had your self discipline. My stock box never stops growing - Im afraid I cant resist a bargain. Im looking forward to this develop.

Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 19, 2018, 07:34:22 am
Leon

Many thanks. I think that Iíll drop you a Personal Message if thatís ok re locomotives and stock around Westbury.
I think it might be a bit detailed for the forum.
Iíll send it in the next day or so.

Martin

Aww, @port perran (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=230) , some of us might well be interested. Go on, make it public...please.

cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 19, 2018, 10:49:07 am
Re the Wragg  handbook, I'm  just rerading my Southern edition and noticed a couple of errors, a photo caption showing an N class 2-6-0 but caption says King Arthur N15 class, although it does get the number correct 31816; the other error is in the text and claims Bulleid retired in anger at the rebuilding of his pacifics, yes he was angry but he retired  in 1949 yet rebuilding was not authorised until 1955 but did not start until 35018 returned to traffic Feb 1856.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2018, 09:27:02 pm
Re the Wragg  handbook ... noticed a couple of errors

Accuracy is always important, but I'll never recognize those kinds of errors. Still, I'm glad there are people who do!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 19, 2018, 09:54:43 pm
I've created a photo album from the images I took when I visited Westbury. Some of you know the Junction better than I, but my guess is that most have never been through the station. I'm pasting a link to my Westbury album in Google Photos. Double click any image and then click the "info" logo in the upper right corner for information about that particular image.

I'm in the process of re-arranging my office/library to accommadate a layout, and I'm having the baseboard built by a real carpenter. In the meantime, I'm running trains in my mind, and imagining things like inclines that are an integral part of construction. I've lots of questions, and I'll be asking them here - one at a time.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMDFfCezrKBXweg6A

Best regards,
Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 19, 2018, 10:29:40 pm
I've created a photo album from the images I took when I visited Westbury.
[url]https://photos.app.goo.gl/HMDFfCezrKBXweg6A[/url]
Best regards,
Leon

@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724) Lovely set of photographs that. Thank you for posting.
Ive only ever been through Westbury once and of course its a very interesting station/yard. When I've looked back at your plan, I think you've done really well to squeeze in all that track work. Really interested to watch this develop.
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 20, 2018, 12:10:16 am
I'm considering 5mm Poplar Plywood for my baseboard, topped with either 1/4 inch cork or 1/2 inch foam board insulation. I have a couple of ponds on the lower side of the layout, so I'm leaning toward foam board. I have little elevation to deal with, but the typography in the middle of the layout does rise gradually, and my inclination is to use sheets of polystyrene. Comments?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 20, 2018, 07:45:47 am
Persoanlly I would use open frame construction using timber frame work (poplar in North America is far more readily available than it is here in the UK but is a good stable product). I would top the frame work with cut out ply thus making the baseboard an open frame. This will allow you to drop your ponds into the spaces. Have a look here http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm (http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm.)
Im not a fan of soft material as a base for the track, I persoanally like something more solid, such as ply wood. 6mm ply is usually OK, if it is well supported. 9mm is absolutely fine. Anything thicker is too big, in my opinion.
Hope this helps.
cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 20, 2018, 05:36:18 pm

Hi Leon
 stock box never stops growing - Im afraid I cant resist a bargain.

Cheers
Kirky

Kirky, the temptation to acquire is a universal trait to which I'm not immune. I've just ordered a couple wagons from Hatton's. But, my expenditures in the future will be for structures and scenery. I've been filling in my track plan with some representations of buildings, animals, and trees and have decided 32 sq ft is a lot of space to fill. I seriously am thinking now in terms of four years for completion rather than the two I had planned!

BTW, if anybody is reading this, I'm needing a GWR guard van (or two). I have two green BR coaches (probably Lima) I'm willing to trade.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 20, 2018, 06:42:21 pm
Hi Leon

I did say that I would give a few thoughts re my growing up in Trowbridge and frequent visits to Westbury.
Itís outside your chosen era Iím afraid. I was born in 1954 and my spotting memories are really from 62-67.
My early spotting was at Trowbridge where a group of us spent many Saturdays on Trowbridge station or afternoons and evenings at what we called Black Bridge at Ladydown on the Bradford side of Trowbridge.
Black Bridge provided (especially in the period 62-64) many steam locos. There was even a goods loop where 28xx and others were often held as passenger trains passed.
Starting with freight we saw plenty of South Wales to Westbury, Salisbury and the SR. The Dalisbury loco freight was usually in the hands of a 72xx 2-8-2T. Many other freights were hauled by 28xx, 22xx, Halls, Granges and both large and small praries. We still had daily pick up goods (usually pannier hauled). Passenger turns saw Halls, Counties, Manors and Castles on Trains to and from  Bristol. Cardiff and Fishguard from Portsmouth, Salisbury and Westbury as well as praries and panniers on local turns (including to Devizes and Swindon via Holt and Melksham). Wwe also witnessed the introduction of diesels (esp hydraulics) of hymek, warship (rare) and western classes as well as dmus.
Saturday mornings are well remembered on Trowbridge station (with the distinctive smells and sounds of Bowyers bacon factory nearby). We befriended a couple of porters who kept us informed of special trains and treated us to real railway tea!  We also met the 3 legged station cat who reportedly lost a leg in an altercation with a shunting engine.
Moving on to Westbury and what a mecca for trainspotters with the Bristo/S Wales to Salisbury and beyond trains and also to Weymouth. Plus, of course, the main London to Devon and Cornwall expresses. It seemed to be constant action involving virtually every class of WR locos. Including two 56xx 0-6-2tanks used for banking duties on Upton ascudamore bank.
We also saw SR and Standard classes of course particularly from Salisbury tnough 92xxx and WD freight locos were rarer. We saw some ex LMS locos fairly often, especially  lack 5s and 8Fs and on at least 2 occassions ex LNER BIs having worked down from Banbury on freights,
The shed was easy to bunk and always produced at least 40 numbers. In later days, we had the sad sight of withdrawn locos from WR and SR en route to the South Wales scrapyards. Very sad. We would often see trains of 4 or 5 withdrawn locos being hauled dead towards South Wales.
Finally, angling was another passtime. We spent many happy hours at Frogmore Lake. Thatsís not the one near the station but about 250yds further away. An ex mie hole (iron ore). The Westbury avoiding line ran right by the lake and we wouls see heavy London to South West expresses roar by with Castles and Kings (and others) in charge.
Great days.
Only a tiny insight but I hope it gives a flavour of the area in the early 60s. Maybe Iíve made scant mention of diesels but we saw many as the 60s progressed. I copped all the Hymeks, Warships and Westerns plus many early Brush Type 4s and Class 37s. As well as Class 33s from the SR.
Fabulous days and great fun.
Oh.....and I forgot about the pennies on the line. I had them for years but alas they are gone now.
Regards
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 20, 2018, 10:16:20 pm
Hi Leon
I did say that I would give a few thoughts re my growing up in Trowbridge and frequent visits to Westbury.
Regards
Martin

Martin, that was a treat! I'll have a few questions and requests for elaboration, later. One thing you might like to know - that small lake or pond features in my layout, so I asked the barman of The Railway Inn if it was still there. It's not; having been drained for a housing project. There was clearing and construction around the larger pond, but the barman said there was no plan to drain it - just the construction of a road along the southern shore to the area seen in the lower left of my layout. You guessed! It's for another housing development. I've no idea what the construction on the north shore was. Maybe the plan is to have the pond entirely circumnavigated by a road. That is my guess. I've no idea about the fishing, but there is still a sailing club for the local youth.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 21, 2018, 08:17:21 am
Leon

Glad that was useful. I have lots more memories if you need any more. Plus I have an Uncle, now aged 77, who worked in the rail traffic control office at Westbusy in the late 50s and early 60s. He has a wealth of knowledge re traffic movements.
As for the lakes. The one I used to fish is still very much there. Itís called Frogmore (lying alongside Slag Lane). It is bigger and deeper than the one by the station (Eden Vale Lake). In the early 20th century, the various tin mines (i think there were 9 in all) were connected by a narrow gauge rail system. On sunny days we could see the tracks in a shallower part of the lake with 3 old wagons still sitting there.
The lakes were flooded I think in the 1930s and have been fisheries since the 50s. A few of the smaller ones were indeed filled in revently.
By the way, during the war, there was a military installation about half a mile from the station at Westbury on the Trowbridge line which was rail served until the early 1950s.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2018, 09:30:06 pm
Persoanlly I would use open frame construction using timber frame work (poplar in North America is far more readily available than it is here in the UK but is a good stable product). I would top the frame work with cut out ply thus making the baseboard an open frame. This will allow you to drop your ponds into the spaces. Have a look here [url]http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.pls-layouts.co.uk/html/baseboards.htm.[/url])
Im not a fan of soft material as a base for the track, I persoanally like something more solid, such as ply wood. 6mm ply is usually OK, if it is well supported. 9mm is absolutely fine. Anything thicker is too big, in my opinion.
Hope this helps.
cheers
Kirky


I know open frame construction is frequently recommended, but somehow I can't get my head around that. I will not be doing the open frame construction, so I still have to decide about the material to top the plywood (assuming there isn't a better suggestion). My entire 8' x 10' board will be topped with something for sound deafening purposes. Cork is rather expensive when the majority of the board will then be covered with something else - probably layers of foam board. Insulation foam board takes care of the sound issue and seems, to me, to be sufficiently firm. I've seen video of water features created by removing an area of insulation foam. I think that will work, but would welcome comments from anyone who has done it - with or without success. I appreciate Kirky's suggestion, but when the frame is finished I have to construct the contours and elevations and open frame isn't something I feel confident to handle. I need to make a decision on materials to schedule the carpenter, so all are invited to chip in their "two cents" worth of advice.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2018, 09:41:59 pm
Just received in the mail, today, The Great Western Railway - 150 Glorious Years, the official souvenir Authorized by the Bristish Rail Western Region published in 1984. That should be everything I need to know about GWR. In the meantime, I'm reading The Southern Handbook: The Southern Railway 1923-1947 by Wragg, David which came in yesterday's mail.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 21, 2018, 09:52:47 pm
By the way, during the war, there was a military installation about half a mile from the station at Westbury on the Trowbridge line which was rail served until the early 1950s.
Martin

Martin, I went to Google maps and zoomed in on a sattelite view of the Westbury area. There is a faint outline of what could have been a siding approaching Hawkeridge Road at Yarnbrook. Also, there is what might be tarmac with paths to the road and another to the railroad (maybe the remains of a station/parking lot?).

I Do have other questions, but I'll hold them for later.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 04:57:10 pm
I read a few recommendations for insulation board, including the following - I certainly would recommend insulation board. I still have 2-3 boards from circa 1980s that have never warped and will be used later this year, I hope. I personally would avoid plywood - it's hard as nails and reverberates like anything. Yes, I know there are dozens if not hundreds (or more) on the MRF who swear by it but it certainly is not for me.

My idea is to use insulation board as a topping for the plywood. Does anyone think that would be overkill? If I go that route, would the thinner plywood be adequate for my 4' by 8' board? I just like the idea of plywood under a softer surface. I was just reading about sundeala board (which is highly touted by Peco and the N Model Handbook that is my general reference), but when I Goggled to see if I could buy it, or a substitute, in the United States I discovered numerous horror stories about it. So,I guess it boils down to personal preference.

I really would like a round of opinons on my idea before I buy the materials (I've got to grab the carpenter when I can. This time of year it's really hard to find one who will do a small job.)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 07:31:44 pm
I found an image of a frame for my carpenter to use as a guide. My layout will be 8' x 10'. What do you suggest for sizing the frame lumber? In the picture, it looks like 1" x 6".

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-220618192559.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 22, 2018, 07:51:28 pm
Ive used Sundeala in the past. Its awful stuff. One drop of water and it expands. It warps like nobodies business. I guess peco recomend it because its easy to push track pins into.
I think your insulation board ontop of ply will certainly work. A member of our club built his layout using the thick two inch board which is foil backed with only an outside fram, no top at all. It worked for him and its a OO model, so I would imagine in N its fine. Its got the advantage of being able to bury things like wire in tube point operating systems. The disadvantage would be it'll be difficult to use underboard components like peco point motors - but you could surface mount them.
Cheers
Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 22, 2018, 07:55:14 pm
In response to your lumber sizes. 4 inches deep would be more than adequate. If you are not using components under the board, probably 2x1 would be fine. I guess this is a stay at home layout where weight isnt an issue?
cheers
kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 09:23:44 pm
In response to your lumber sizes. 4 inches deep would be more than adequate. If you are not using components under the board, probably 2x1 would be fine. I guess this is a stay at home layout where weight isnt an issue?
cheers
kirky

Yes, this layout will never be moved. I'll be running wire from my points underneath, but not much more. Weight is not a serious issue, but I may be moving the board around within the room where it's located and would like for it to be as light as possible.  I'd prefer 2x1, but saw some suggestions that boards wider than 2' might need something larger than 2x1. I'm not sure why. Thanks for the advice. I'm really flying blind when it comes to technical stuff and need all the guidance I can get.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on June 22, 2018, 09:24:27 pm
I read a few recommendations for insulation board, including the following - I certainly would recommend insulation board. I still have 2-3 boards from circa 1980s that have never warped and will be used later this year, I hope.
I suspect the insulation board in question was fibre board (softboard) that used to be standard in the sixties and right up until the eighties.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 22, 2018, 09:44:02 pm
I suspect the insulation board in question was fibre board (softboard) that used to be standard in the sixties and right up until the eighties.

Laurence, I'm looking at Dow extruded polystyrene foam.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kirky on June 22, 2018, 09:58:00 pm
The reason I suggested 2x1 is because youve already said you are using poplar. This is usually a very good timber, far less prone to warping than say something like spruce which is usually grown quickly and is less dense. Secondly the construction method suggested in the picture would indicate a box type contruction which is very strong. I dont think you gain much by going bigger especially as youre getting it built by a professional.
cheers

Kirky
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 24, 2018, 05:36:38 pm
Including two 56xx 0-6-2tanks used for banking duties on Upton ascudamore bank.
We also saw SR and Standard classes of course particularly from Salisbury tnough 92xxx and WD freight locos were rarer. We saw some ex LMS locos fairly often, especially  lack 5s and 8Fs and on at least 2 occassions ex LNER BIs having worked down from Banbury on freights,
The shed was easy to bunk and always produced at least 40 numbers. In later days, we had the sad sight of withdrawn locos from WR and SR en route to the South Wales scrapyards.
Martin

Martin,

Can you explain "banking duties" and Upton ascudamore bank? What is meant by Standard classes in the context of SR? Also, is WR for Western Region? And, what is WD?

In an earlier post, you mentioned a turntable at Westbury. What can you tell me about Westbury as a terminus? I've seen no other reference to trains terminating in Westbury.

I've assumed from my reading that SR had a regular service through Westbury. Can you provide me with specifics? I noticed when I was at Trowbridge a Southwest Railroad train running through, so I presume that could be a legacy of an older SR service.

What would LMS and LNER trains have been common through Westbury before natualization? Was it common for one region to use another region's rail to move goods and minerals with their own locomotives? Can you elaborate?

The Southern Handbook was the first delivered of my recent purchases, so I'm reading it first. I have the LMS book, and the other two should be here, soon. I'll be reading them all, but the author assumes the reader knows more than I do! Your answers to my questions will be greatly appreciated. Forgive the naivety of some of them; i.e. Standard classes. I've seen that term before, but the reference always assumes the reader knows what it means!

Best regards,
Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 24, 2018, 06:18:01 pm
Banking duties: assistance, (usually from the rear) for trains on gradients/banks, the assisting loco usually referred to as a banker would "buffer up" to the rear of the train, but not coupling to it, usually done at a station stop where the train engine may have difficulty starting a heavy train against the gradient;
typical examples of this would be the 1:37 up from Exeter St Davids to Exeter Central. or leaving Bath green park for the Somerset & Dorset line; on reaching the top of the bank the banker would without the train having to stop, the banker would then cross over to the other track to return to the bottom of the bank for the next train to require its services.

Standard classes were built by British rail and could be allocated to any region: WD is the War Department which had 3 classes of freight locos, (2-8-0, 2-10-0 and 0-6-0 saddle tank) built for the government by various companies, and could be used anywhere in UK or overseas, particularly Europe after the Normandy landings. (Similar USA equivalent would be the Transport Corps locos)

The SR and GWR ran a service from Portsmouth to Cardiff via Salisbury where locos would  usually be changed, in BR days the same service was run by Southern and Western regions, now run by South West trains, but I think now is more often Portsmouth to Bristol.

Locos from other companies would occasionally run on other companies tracks, usually an Excursion or in wartime "anything goes", Ambulance trains, Troop trains, or sometimes on loan to cover a shortage due to heavier traffic or damage by enemy action. Some cross country routes over more than one companies lines would often change locosat a convenient point rather than at the company boundary, example trains from the south coast to the midlands or north would change locos at Oxford or Banbury.

After nationalisation all locos belonged to British Rail so they could send them wherever they wanted.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on June 24, 2018, 06:46:43 pm
A brilliant exposition, Mike.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 24, 2018, 07:05:48 pm
Hi Leon.
Wow, lots of questions and you are correct, it is often easy to assume either prior knowledge or understanding.
Anyway, to take you questions one at a time.
It should be Upton Scudamore bank which is a steepish incline past the village of the same name. Steam locomotives often struggled for adhesion on steep banks (especially with heavy trains). A banking engine (or sometimes 2 or 3) were added at the end of the train to give it a shove up the bank. The  banking locos would drop off at the top of the bank and return to their stabling point or home depot.
Standard Classes. At Nationalisation of Britains railways in 1948, British Railways (BR) inherited a fleet of locomotives from the main constituent companies. Under the modernisation plan a fleet of new steam locomotives was suggested based on the best principles of existing locos. These new locomotives were used across the entire network and as they were not ďownedĒ by any of the constituent companies they became Standard Classes.
WR does stand for Western Region (formerly GWR) as , of course, SR stands for Southern.
WD is War Department. Indeed BR inherited some 750 locomotives (largely 2-8-0 and 2-10-0 types) from the WD after World War 2.
Westbury isnít a terminus but, especially in steam days, many trains changed locomotive at Westbury. Steam locos generally run smokebox first and so need to be able to be turned in order to work back to where they came from. Therefore, most steam loco depots (and the one at Westbury was quite large and busy) were equipped with a turntable on which the loco would be placed to be turned. The turntable at Westbury was at the back of the loco depot.
In steam days, SR trains did indeed run into Westbury. The principle route was to Salisbury and on to Portsmouth or Southampton. Trains ran to eg Portsmouth from Bristol or South Wales. Many such trains changed from an SR loco to a WR loco at Salisbury but there was a daily service which saw SR locos and crews running right on to Bristol for crew route knowledge purposes.
As far as I know LNER and LMS locos were rare at Westbury prior to Nationalisation although, of course, actual trains would run from region to region. Generally a train booked to run from one region to another would change engines close to regional boundaries but occasionally, in the case of an engine failure for example, foreign locos would run from one region to another.
I hope Iíve answered adequately and please do ask again for more information.
Others may offer more detail or elaborate which would be helpful and Iíll let someone else answer re the Southwest Trains unit at Trowbridge.

Cheers
Martin

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 24, 2018, 07:35:32 pm
My thanks to Mike and Martin for their answers to my questions.

Martin, I've watched a video shot within the last two decades (can't remember the exact time) that was done from Westbury Platform 3. It showed clearly a loco in the shed at the top of the north sidings. That track (looking at satellite images) seems to have been removed. If the turntable was sited beyond the engine shed it may have been on land now occupied by NetworkRail Regional Track Materials Recyling Center. Do you know when it was removed? My layout is intended to focus on 1938-1942. Should I have a turntable?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 24, 2018, 07:46:02 pm
My thanks to Mike and Martin for their answers to my questions.

Martin, I've watched a video shot within the last two decades (can't remember the exact time) that was done from Westbury Platform 3. It showed clearly a loco in the shed at the top of the north sidings. That track (looking at satellite images) seems to have been removed. If the turntable was sited beyond the engine shed it may have been on land now occupied by NetworkRail Regional Track Materials Recyling Center. Do you know when it was removed? My layout is intended to focus on 1938-1942. Should I have a turntable?

Leon
Hi
That depot that you are referring to is the diesel stabling point (installed in 1962 I think).the steam shed was on the other side of the main line at the South end of the station. It was a much bigger concern than the diesel stabling point.
The steam shed was accessed by a connection to the main line some quarter of a mile beyond the station and was accessed by foot via a cinder track which started opposite the main station entrance.
The steam depot was demolished completely in the late 60s and no trace remains  today.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 24, 2018, 08:09:21 pm
Leon
This may help as it shows where the steam loco depot used to be.
http://www.railuk.info/steam/getshed.php?item=82D (http://www.railuk.info/steam/getshed.php?item=82D)

Hope it makes some sense.
The trackwork around the area has been much simplified since the 60s but it gives an idea as to where the shed was.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 24, 2018, 11:36:41 pm
The steam depot was demolished completely in the late 60s and no trace remains  today.
Martin

Martin, actually there MAY be a trace remaining. Before I wrote to you, I had a close look at Google Earth and in the area you referred to there is a faint circle. So, though you didn't say so, I really need to add a turntable if I want to be more prototypical? The diesel "stabling point" was single track. From what you've said, the steam shed must have been multi track. Would the turntable have been multi track? I'd sure like to have a better understanding of the engine turning at Westbury. To justify the cost of a turntable, there must have been a significant number of locomotives turned at Westbury. If that was the case, my plan to include an autocoach between Dilton Marsh and Trowbridge (on my layout) might need to be re-visited. I'm wondering if Southern ran a frequent service between Southampton and Bristol (Gloucester), handing over to a GWR locomotive at Westbury and turning their own? Where might I find timetables for Westbury for that period? BTW, in the context of protocol, what do modellers mean by Rule #1?

Leon


Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 25, 2018, 03:12:10 am
Old postcards may be the best way to insure period accuracy.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030540.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030504.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030429.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030341.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030301.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030110.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-250618030001.jpeg)

I've learned a couple of things from these postcards, already: the fact that Westbury had heavy industry and the location of the signal box. There is likely to be more hidden detail that will come in handy, later.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 25, 2018, 10:22:51 am
Rule 1 says "Its your railway, run whatever pleases you" so if you want to run Flying Scotsman through your Westbury - do so
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 25, 2018, 04:11:03 pm
Thanks, Mike! I can live by Rule #1, but I'll always try to represent the reality of the period I'm modeling. There is a place for totally imaginative layouts, however, with the flexiblity for running anything consistent with the environment created. I will run my Caledonian locomotive on my GWR layout. I'm not sure if there was a football team in Southwest England who would have played a Scottish team, but that will be my excuse for invoking Rule #1.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on June 25, 2018, 04:30:49 pm
Football (soccer) just doesn't seem to work in the south west of England. Now, if you had a bunch of chaps from a Scottish rugby team, a tour to the South West would be perfect. (You'd need to litter the platforms with a lot of empty cans, and other unpleasant items).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 25, 2018, 04:46:06 pm
Hi Leon.
To clarify. In your chosen period locos generally didnít run from one region to another although trains did.
Hence, for example, a train running eg Bristol to Portsmouth would run with a WR loco from Bristol to Salisbury and an SR loco Salisbury to Portsmouth. Although occasionally an SR loco would run right through for route familiarisation purposes.
Note. WR trains ran with a WR loco to Weymouth.
The reason for turntables at all medium and large loco depots was to turn the engine.
Imagine a passenger train running Paddington to Weymouth. There would normally be an engine change at Westbury. Steam engines need servicing (inc adding water and coal) regularly. So engine 1 would come off the train to be replaced with engine 2.
Later in the day engine 2 (now turned and setviced at Weymouth) would work the train back to West ury where engine 1 (now serviced and turned) would take the train on to Paddington.
As for Westbury depot. In terms of size it would be classed as medium. It had an allocation of 88 engines in 1948. Westbury was a VERY busy rail centre.
The shed had four tracks under cover (housing some 12 tender locos adequately) with considerable outside storage sidings. There was a small workshop (for medium repairs) and a coaling track.
An additional track led to the turntable where engines were turned.
Acceess to the shed itself was by means of a headshunt off the main Salisbury line and was under the control of Westbury South signal box.
Hope this all helps.
I can only emphasise again how busy I remember the area being in my youth in the early 60s.  A couple of hours spotting including a visit to the loco shed could very easily yield 100 locos seen.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 25, 2018, 10:17:07 pm
Can you explain "banking duties"

Leon,

These late 1950's episodes of Railway Roundabout may give you some idea of what was involved in banking duties, mostly self-explanatory I hope.  Some wonderful shots of GWR locos working on an ex-LMS main line. 





Apologies for the delay but it's taken some time to find these, I thought I had them in my history.  I hope I have the links right. 

There are a number of episodes dealing with Western Region, but so far I've not found any which feature Westbury. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 12:01:11 am
A couple of hours spotting including a visit to the loco shed could very easily yield 100 locos seen.
Martin

Thanks for that excellent explanation, Martin. In my two hours at Westbury, I probably saw a dozen locos - half of them shunting mineral wagons. By todays standard, I guess that's still pretty busy. There's no way I can capture in my layout the full scope of this junction. I have altered the plan for the location and size of the engine shed, but mostly symbolic. The striking thing, to me, is just how many changes there have been over the years to the workings at Westbury. BTW, my location of the goods station is highly speculative. I felt that the satellite map showed signes of a siding where some NetRail buildings are located, today, and it looks like it would have been a logical place for a goods station.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 12:03:12 am
Football (soccer) just doesn't seem to work in the south west of England. Now, if you had a bunch of chaps from a Scottish rugby team, a tour to the South West would be perfect. (You'd need to litter the platforms with a lot of empty cans, and other unpleasant items).

Rugby will work! :) Perhaps a team from the Borders.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on June 26, 2018, 12:50:22 am
BTW, my location of the goods station is highly speculative.


Did you ever discover the Old ordnance survey maps? - http://maps.nls.uk/

The 25 inch maps have enormous detail, although earlier than your period. But at least it will anchor some stuff for you. (And, of course, if you're like me, it will give you an excuse to explore stuff for hours). The later maps were smaller scale, with the 1937-61 series clearly showing the engine sheds and other buildings that aren't labelled.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 04:20:35 pm

Did you ever discover the Old ordnance survey maps? - [url]http://maps.nls.uk/[/url]

The 25 inch maps have enormous detail, although earlier than your period. But at least it will anchor some stuff for you. (And, of course, if you're like me, it will give you an excuse to explore stuff for hours). The later maps were smaller scale, with the 1937-61 series clearly showing the engine sheds and other buildings that aren't labelled.


kelstonlad, thanks for reminding me! I've had a look, and I am like you, I guess. I love studying maps. I've always enjoyed them, and studied geography at college.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 26, 2018, 04:40:59 pm
Hi Leon.
Westbury had fairly extensive goods sidings mainly located at the South end of the station between he main Salisbury line and the loco shed.
As Westbury was a VERY important junction for effectively 5 direction ie
London and northwards
Bristol and South Wales (via Trowbridge)
Salisbury and the South East
Weymouth
The Far South West (vis Taunton and Exeter).
Imagine a freight train arriving from, say, London containing wagons for eg Weymouth, Salisbury and Taunton. That train would terminate at Westbury and its wagons added to appropriate trains for their final destinations.
Hence, fairly extensive shunting and marshalling movements took place.
Westbury itself was a small town and so its own goods handling facilities were limited. There was a small goods shed and yard just to the South of the station.
Hence, the goods sidings were extensive but the goods shed was small.
Hope that makes some sense.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 04:50:07 pm
Martin has given me information that led to some minor changes in my layout; i.e. location of engine shed and the size of my ponds (lakes). I've also decided to change the Salisbury down line to single track through Dilton Marsh to simplify the layout (as I did the up line to Trowbridge). The result is posted below. One bit of knowledge I think I'll be unable to incorporate - the presence of a turntable near the engine shed. I don't see a way to make room for it. And, given the many changes to the junction over the years, I wonder if the turntable that Martin remembers was built AFTER nationaization. My impression is that Southern gave off to a GWR locomotive at Salisbury, so I'd expect that the turntable was there in Grouping times. Perhaps Martin can further enlighten us, though it's probably not worth any further research. Certainly not for me, for the reason cited above (no layout room).

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/66/6724-260618164903.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 04:53:59 pm
Hi Leon.
Westbury had fairly extensive goods sidings mainly located at the South end of the station between he main Salisbury line and the loco shed.
As Westbury was a VERY important junction for effectively 5 direction ie
London and northwards
Bristol and South Wales (via Trowbridge)
Salisbury and the South East
Weymouth
The Far South West (vis Taunton and Exeter).
Imagine a freight train arriving from, say, London containing wagons for eg Weymouth, Salisbury and Taunton. That train would terminate at Westbury and its wagons added to appropriate trains for their final destinations.
Hence, fairly extensive shunting and marshalling movements took place.
Westbury itself was a small town and so its own goods handling facilities were limited. There was a small goods shed and yard just to the South of the station.
Hence, the goods sidings were extensive but the goods shed was small.
Hope that makes some sense.

Martin

Martin, that IS what I've suspected, but I still think there was something east of the station - and it makes sense to me that it would have been off the goods line (dedicated, today, and probably was then) that runs between the station and platform 1. I'm going to leave it that way on my layout (citing Rule #1  :D). If you've seen my post of a few minutes ago, maybe you'll want to comment (re: turntable). Your last post suggests clearly that you feel locos were dropped and turned here. You will know from personal observation, but that was a decade and more after my period. Whatever, I don't have room for a turntable, so I'll just have to ignore those trains, I suppose.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on June 26, 2018, 05:24:01 pm
I think your new plan looks good. Itís a fair representation of Westbury in the space you have available.
I see that you have added Frogmore pond (Iíve spent more hours fishing there than I care to remember).
The turntable would certainly have been in place in your era Leon but I can see that it would be difficult to accommodate.
In the space that you have available, I think it has th be a representation of Westbury rather than an exact copy.
Looks good.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 26, 2018, 05:38:50 pm
I can confirm, after consulting an online Ordnance Survey map (1937-1961 compilaton) that there WAS a siding off the goods line in the Westbury Station! It ran to an area of three buildings about a hundred yards NE of the station, and appears to continue under the road to another group of buildings (both groups of buildings are, today, property of NetworkRail). An earlier map (about 1905) shows no ponds (lakes). Therefore, mining ceased between c. 1905 and 1961 after which the quarries were flooded. Since Martin fished there at the end of that period, mining had been discontinued some years before. The engine shed was two rails. I'm still studying maps.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 27, 2018, 02:48:15 am
The Ordnance Survey Map I've been using was drawn after 1942 for it includes the East Loop Junction, completed in that year. It reveals a far smaller track system and simpler operational complexity than was in use by the '50s and '60s. I think I'm finished with my research and am content my layout will properly represent Westbury Junction as it appeared circa 1938-42. This part of the project probably represents my best efforts, for I've not modelled for nearly 50 years and don't expect to achieve the quality I see in photographs of many in this forum. Still it's been fun, and I'll continue to enjoy the challenges ahead.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on June 27, 2018, 06:32:35 am
You're in good  :hmmm: company Leon.  When I started my layout just over eighteen months ago, it was after a 30 year gap so my scenery is making very slow progress and I'm taking an age getting everything running as I would want.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 27, 2018, 01:32:02 pm
You're in good  :hmmm: company Leon.  When I started my layout just over eighteen months ago, it was after a 30 year gap so my scenery is making very slow progress and I'm taking an age getting everything running as I would want.

Laurence, thanks for the encouragement. I think I'll feel a bit better when I have the baseboard constructed and start laying the track (the next challenge). Converting my AnyRail plan to a real layout should be fun (with a few expected frustrations).

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 28, 2018, 09:51:54 pm
You're in good  :hmmm: company Leon.  When I started my layout just over eighteen months ago, it was after a 30 year gap so my scenery is making very slow progress and I'm taking an age getting everything running as I would want.

Laurence, I feel like I'm out of my depth among so many of you whose skills I admire but do not share. I built a few airplanes when I was a teenager, and buit a simple 00 layout for our son in 1977. I've collected art all my life and have spent most of my retirement years selling it - but I have no practical artistic talent, despite courses taken at college. My mechanical appitude is near zero, and I've never been able to do even routine household repairs. So, why have I decided to model at my age? My only explanation is that I enjoy the design element and the associated historical research. But, if I'm going to build a layout, I'll have to model some buildings and scenery! Everything will be out of the box with the minimum amount of assembly. I've bought a few things, already - mainly Metcalfe card kits. I don't say this to apologize, for I think the purpose of the forum is to share all sorts of related interests with those who share a love for the railways. I'll enjoy whatever I'm able to create, and I'll continue to follow the threads of people like you on this forum and assimilate what I can.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 12:47:15 am
I think I owe the Forum an apology for starting this thread prematurely. I'm awaiting my baseboard construction, but haven't been able to keep my fingers away from the keyboard and AnyRail. The plan I said was finished keeps evolving! That's the result of better historical understanding, primarily, thanks largely to Mike whose help cannot be overstated. I've come to understand, however, that an 8' x 4' board will not accommodate what I want to communicate. I have, therefore, taken a more pragmatic view of my asperations and thinking more about inspiration than representation. I have changed the names of my stations (Wiltsbury, Biss River, and Marsh View) and titled the layout Wiltsbury Junction - Inspired by Westbury Station.

Today, I ran my first trains since 1977! I finally was able to set up track and test the locomotives I've purchased over the past three months. For the most part, I'm pleased, but there were some surprises. The first one I ran didn't want to run! I was using the Kato M1 track set purchased used (like new). Although the seller claimed it had hardly been out of the box, there were remnants of glue on some of the rails. Except for this rail set all of my track is new and I haven't yet bought track cleaner, but I was able to scrape off the offending glue and the loco ran, albeit unevenly. The next three locomotives (one of which was bought new from a shop) were also somewhat sluggish. One would not run at all, initially, but after a little coaxing it proceeding around the oval both forward and reverse and after warming up ran quite well. I attributed all of the shortcomings to the track, but then I tested the last loco and was delighted with the result. It was smooth and quiet and ran well at slow speeds as well as faster (I ran all of them up to  three quarters speed).

My inventory and the order of testing:

GWR green with roundel, 14XX 0-4-2T, 1420, Dapol ND-004

GWR Green 5700 Pannier Tank 5768, Graham Farish 1114

Caledonian 4-4-0, Graham Farish

GWR Green 64XX Pannier Tank 6407, Graham Farish 371-985

GWR Lined Green, Earl of Dunraven, Castle Class 5044, Graham Farish 372-030

My testing was very basic (no running through points), but the Earl of Dunraven deserves a 10. The others between 4 and 6. The new Pannier tank (6407) was especially noisy, and the Dopal which was advertised as "Mint boxed condition. Never been run. Will need full running in" apparently needs a lot of "running in".

More about running stock when I have a layout on which to run them! I'll be buying one more locomotive for main line freight duty and I'll pay the premium and buy a recent production model. Any suggestions?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: kelstonlad on June 29, 2018, 08:11:38 am
Certainly won't be the most appropriate, but have you thought about a King? I'm from GWR country, and a King class was top of my list for a model to get. Along with a Castle, a Manor and a Hall, of course :). I know it's a bit grand for freight, but they might have been used with milk trains.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36310.0

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 03:17:59 pm
How about the Dapol 28xx for your mainline freight? That would be a fine-looking beast!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 04:55:35 pm
I like the look of the Dapol 28xx very much. Until I've run my Dapol tank a bit more, however, I'm reluctant to buy another Dapol. My experience with the the Graham Farish  Earl of Dunraven encourages me to buy that brand. I know my experience is too limited to be so judgemental, but I'm a typical consumer and base my buying practices on whatever experience I have. I WILL, most likely buy a King for a second passenger locomotive, but I really need something to move goods.

Thanks for the input, and I'll be interested to read more about the Dapol 28xx.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 05:08:47 pm
I also like the looks of the Dapol 2S-019-001 N GAUGE GRANGE KINGSTONE GRANGE GWR GREEN SHIRTBUTTON 6820, but have no knowledge of where it worked. I'm assuming it was used for goods, but don't know that for fact. Has anyone bought this model?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 05:38:56 pm
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 05:45:07 pm
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.

Chris, I may be adding a coal staging building in that area of the layout. Plus, a map of my period doesn't show a turntable - and after 1942 a turntable would have been redundant (though a turntable was in use in the 1960s).

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 05:57:28 pm
Aha. I see. I have some familiarity with the whole Westbury area having been born and raised in nearby Bristol so I will enjoy watching your layout grow.

Are you thinking of incorporating any Southern locos and stock?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 29, 2018, 06:15:35 pm
Aha. I see. I have some familiarity with the whole Westbury area having been born and raised in nearby Bristol so I will enjoy watching your layout grow.

Are you thinking of incorporating any Southern locos and stock?

Chris, I'm reading The Southern Handbook: The Southern Railway 1923-1947 at the moment and gaining a new appreciation for that network. Hopefully, when the book is completed I'll have a better understanding of the services they ran in cooperation with GWR.

I didn't thank you in my previous message for your suggestion. So, thank you very much for the input and I hope I'll achieve something worthwile - eventually. As I've said more than once, every time I think I've finished the plan I find something else to tweek (the coaling stage is an example, arising from a '60s photo of the station shared by Martin on this forum).

My other major project is genealogy and I'm finding that railroad modeling has much in common with the former: neither project will ever be finished!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 29, 2018, 06:30:42 pm
I like the look of the Dapol 28xx very much. Until I've run my Dapol tank a bit more, however, I'm reluctant to buy another Dapol.

Leon,

I have two Dapol tanks, a pannier and a small prairie, which were bought new in 2015 from the UK and sent to Japan.  I never had any problems with running in either, although the prairie is not able to handle much of a load. 

I have avoided Dapol GW tender engines because the tenders are on the low side and could be noisy, I was not impressed with the early Manors after watching Youtube videos. 

I WILL, most likely buy a King for a second passenger locomotive

Perhaps you should consider adding your name to the DJ Models list if it is still open.  See http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36310.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36310.0)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 29, 2018, 06:31:04 pm
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Union Mills Collett for goods

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 29, 2018, 06:37:35 pm
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Union Mills Collett for goods

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url])


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 29, 2018, 06:54:14 pm


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well.

It was on their list last September, List No.103, "Dean Goods various liveries."
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 29, 2018, 08:45:49 pm
One question Leon. Your plan shows a blue branch ending in the bottom left corner. I am a bit baffled as to how this crosses the main line. Is it on a bridge? If so it seems a very short distance from the point which gives access to the loco yard. Is there enough room for an incline?  :hmmm:

Also I wonder if you see any merit in reducing the angle between the loco shed sidings and the adjacent sidings. This will enable you to make the loco sidings longer and give more storage room.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on June 29, 2018, 09:12:07 pm
Here's a list of locos allocated to 82D Westbury shed...........

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593 (http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593)

You can see panniers and all sorts. Halls and Granges were typical mixed traffic locos for the GWR and the 28xx was used mainly on heavy freight. Shame no one makes the 43xx Mogul. There was talk of DJ Models doing one but I think that could be light years away.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 29, 2018, 10:06:57 pm
PD Marsh do a 43xx kit to fit Farish praire chassis

http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2 (http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:00:32 am
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Union Mills Collett for goods

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38775.0[/url])


Mike, I like it, but can't find one for sale. Maybe I'm just too tired, but I'm really frustrated with the dealers' search engines. *sigh*

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:20:48 am
One question Leon. Your plan shows a blue branch ending in the bottom left corner. I am a bit baffled as to how this crosses the main line. Is it on a bridge? If so it seems a very short distance from the point which gives access to the loco yard. Is there enough room for an incline?  :hmmm:

Also I wonder if you see any merit in reducing the angle between the loco shed sidings and the adjacent sidings. This will enable you to make the loco sidings longer and give more storage room.

Chris, thanks for the suggestions. I'll take a look (but have spent the last two hours re-working the shed and goods sidings). As a result of research and the help of people like you, I've rearranged a few things. I don't think the Salisbury line can be altered significantly, however. I've had lots of comments about it, but I don't see a problem. Westbury Station tracks are eight or ten feet above the station (and the main, "avoiding line", and I'll be modeling it that way. The Salisbury line will cross above the "avoiding line" which will have dropped slightly after the rail bridge crossing the main road on the lower right side. The elevation there isn't what it seems, as the road dips under the bridge. It's all about getting the elevation contours right. With the best part of 24 linear feet main line running, there's loads of space to adjust the elevations.

For you, and to remind others, my idea from the outset was to run an autocoach on the Salisbury up line through Westbury to Trowbridge. I've no idea if that service ever operated through Westbury, but I've bought the locomotive and autocoach (appropriate for the period I'm modeling), so I guess if it didn't run I'll inaugurate a new service!   :D

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:43:01 am
Here's a list of locos allocated to 82D Westbury shed...........

[url]http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593[/url] ([url]http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=593[/url])

You can see panniers and all sorts. Halls and Granges were typical mixed traffic locos for the GWR and the 28xx was used mainly on heavy freight. Shame no one makes the 43xx Mogul. There was talk of DJ Models doing one but I think that could be light years away.


Thanks Mick! If I'm reading the table correctly, prior to 1946 there were few locos allocated to Westbury, which isn't surprising to me. The Ordnance Survey map I've been studying, and referrring to here (drawn after 1942) shows relatively small sidings compared to the late 50s and 60s. There were ten 43xx Mogul 2-6-0 locomotives allocated on 1-1-1934, four of which had been sent to another shed by 1940. Presumably, there were locos allocated to Westbury before 1930. There must have been some shunting engines. If not, mine are going to look a bit goofy on the layout. :)

Thanks for remembering me!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:47:31 am


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well.

It was on their list last September, List No.103, "Dean Goods various liveries."

Where do I find Union Mills?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 01:49:05 am
PD Marsh do a 43xx kit to fit Farish praire chassis

[url]http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2[/url] ([url]http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=2[/url])


Thanks, Mike, but I'm not up to building a loco from a kit. I'm trying to keep things simple!   :D

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 30, 2018, 07:24:10 am


I think UM also do a Dean 0-6-0 as well.


It was on their list last September, List No.103, "Dean Goods various liveries."


Where do I find Union Mills?

Leon


Union Mills locos can be found at shops like Hattons.

www.hattons.co.uk (http://www.hattons.co.uk)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on June 30, 2018, 07:44:43 am
Hi Leon, you have previously mentioned that you do not feel comfortable building complex kits. Consider using kits from Tomytec or Kato, they are well made and donít require much assembly. Iíve just bought a couple of boats from Tomytec which were good quality and had only a few parts.
Whatever you choose to do, enjoy!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on June 30, 2018, 07:47:02 am
Union Mills are a one man band manufacturer on the Isle of Man. Locos are made in small batches and not everything is available all the time. The only place to get a new Union Mills loco is direct from the manufacturer. Hattons, ebay etc will only be selling second hand models. I have noticed that sometimes second hand prices are more than buying a new model direct so be careful.

GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Contact details:

Union Mills Models Ltd
Unit 5
Union Mills Trading
Isle of Man
IM4 4AB
Tel: 01624 852896
There isn't a website

The proprietor Colin Heard is a true gentleman - give him a ring to order a loco
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on June 30, 2018, 10:37:24 am
Aha! tunneroner61 is right. Sorry I didn't know Hattons sold 2nd hand UM. I thought they acted as a distributor. Take the man's sage advice Leon and go direct to UM. UM's locos are robust albeit not superdetailed. However, I have a couple of examples and they were grand. If you ever get bitten by the desire to embellish them they are a perfect starting point.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on June 30, 2018, 03:48:30 pm
GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Leon,

I have no experience of them, but will be hoping to order a Dukedog and pair of Colletts once I have started a layout. 

These are all tender-driven models but unlike Dapol locos, there is no drive-shaft between the tender and loco (through the firebox).  Quite apart from the safety hazards this must present to the footplate crew(!), I understand it can be quite hard to re-engage the drive-shaft with the loco if it becomes detached.   

If you ever get bitten by the desire to embellish them they are a perfect starting point.

Alternatively, I believe there is at least one Forum member who will super-detail them for you.  I haven't had time to investigate yet, but I may wish to have mine brought up to the current BachFar/Dapol standards we are now seeing. 



(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155723.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67055)


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155807.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67056)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 04:04:04 pm
Union Mills are a one man band manufacturer on the Isle of Man. Locos are made in small batches and not everything is available all the time. The only place to get a new Union Mills loco is direct from the manufacturer. Hattons, ebay etc will only be selling second hand models. I have noticed that sometimes second hand prices are more than buying a new model direct so be careful.

GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Contact details:

Union Mills Models Ltd
Unit 5
Union Mills Trading
Isle of Man
IM4 4AB
Tel: 01624 852896
There isn't a website

The proprietor Colin Heard is a true gentleman - give him a ring to order a loco

Thanks for this good information. Colin Heard has been mentioned before, but I'm suffering from information overload, having just re-ignited my interest in railroading three months ago. Much to learn, and not much time to do it.  :) I'll give Colin a ring one day soon, but please answer one question. Are the Union Mills products equal to Dapol and Graham Farish in quality of design and production?

Leon

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on June 30, 2018, 04:09:20 pm
GWR locos available are (were) Dean Goods, Dukedog and Collet 2251.

Leon,

I have no experience of them, but will be hoping to order a Dukedog and pair of Colletts once I have started a layout. 

These are all tender-driven models but unlike Dapol locos, there is no drive-shaft between the tender and loco (through the firebox).  Quite apart from the safety hazards this must present to the footplate crew(!), I understand it can be quite hard to re-engage the drive-shaft with the loco if it becomes detached.   

If you ever get bitten by the desire to embellish them they are a perfect starting point.

Alternatively, I believe there is at least one Forum member who will super-detail them for you.  I haven't had time to investigate yet, but I may wish to have mine brought up to the current BachFar/Dapol standards we are now seeing. 



([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155723.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67055[/url])


([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/3123-280618155807.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67056[/url])


I don't have a need for super detail, just quality general design and production. The model in the image you provided looks great to me.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on June 30, 2018, 04:35:30 pm
I have 6 Union Mills locos all great runners, the only detailing on most of them is to fit vacuum brake pipes front and rear they are fairly obvious visible items, readily available from some of the small dealers and kit makers. Things like brake rods and similar fine detail - read fragile- I can do without.

The only one I've done anything "drastic" with is the SR T9 clas 4-4-0 in my sig below, the UM T9 is one of the later wide cab versions with 6 wheel tender which rarely ran in my area, so I milled a few thou off the cab and splashers, and replaced the tender with an 8 wheel "watercart" from a Langley S15 kit with a Fleischmann tender drive.

I've also used UM tender drives for a couple of scratch built locos and some kits.

Scatch built Adams A12 class 0-4-2
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Dorsetmike's_pix/Dir_2/main_6600.jpg)

Scratch built Drummond K10 4-4-0
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Dorsetmike's_pix/Dir_2/main_6597.jpg)

UM drive fitted in a BHE N15 kit tender with an extra pair of wheels
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/albums/Dorsetmike's_pix/Dir_2/main_6633.jpg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on June 30, 2018, 05:09:20 pm
Union Mills locos are simply engineered compared to Dapol & Farish. They are very reliable, good strong pullers and nearly indestructible. You don't get the detail on them that you now expect from Dapol & Farish. They are also much more reasonably priced - £75ish. Union Mills after sales service is top class. As in everything it's a matter of choice and what your priorities are.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 01, 2018, 03:37:10 pm
Alternatively, I believe there is at least one Forum member who will super-detail them for you.  I haven't had time to investigate yet, but I may wish to have mine brought up to the current BachFar/Dapol standards we are now seeing.


Sorry Leon,

I didn't do the edit correctly, those were shots of a Dukedog that has been detailed by a Forum member. 

In her original condition she looks like this:

http://www.herbavache.free.fr/current/DSC_0277.JPG (http://www.herbavache.free.fr/current/DSC_0277.JPG)

http://www.herbavache.free.fr/latest/IMG_6054.JPG (http://www.herbavache.free.fr/latest/IMG_6054.JPG)

Apologies for the confusion. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 02, 2018, 11:18:25 pm
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-020718230452.jpeg)

Welcome to Wiltsbury Junction! No, this won't be the final layout, but it DOES incorporate a good few changes/improvements resulting for the good input I've had on this Forum. I'm as close to historical accuracy as I can get, however. The station names have been changed to protect the innocent (me!). They are not depicted as accurate reditions of the original, but for what I believe is a reasonable representation within the space limitations. Thirty-two sq ft is a lot to cover, however, and even if I was inclined to extend the board the extra cost and time for construction would exceed my budget. I've rearranged my office/library to accommodate the layout (waiting for my carpenter to build the baseboard), and I'll post a photograph of the space later in the week - with the two knee-hole desks that will support the layout. I'm just marking time, now. Can't start building models for I've no place to put them!

I almost forgot! The 1 mm lines in the layout are approximate elevation contours. AnyRail doesn't provide for drawing free lines (so far as I know), but the contours will be rounded when I start the modeling.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 05, 2018, 12:27:47 am
I bought the MAINLINE 37-058 OO GAUGE GWR 2251 CLASS COLLETT 0-6-0 before I decided to model N Gauge. Does anyone know if it's been done in N?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 05, 2018, 12:48:47 am
It looks now that I will need to settle for Dapol 2S-019-001 Class 68xx 4-6-0 6820 "Kingstone Grange" in GWR green with shirtbutton emblem for my mainline goods service. I'm not the most patient guy in the world, and this is the only thing I can see for sale at the moment in GWR livery for the grouping period.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 05, 2018, 01:03:49 am
I just read about a 'fitted head'. Will someone please explain?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 05, 2018, 09:19:34 am
I just read about a 'fitted head'. Will someone please explain?

Leon


Hi Leon,

See: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115719-gwr-fitted-head-what-is-it/ (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115719-gwr-fitted-head-what-is-it/)

Fitted wagons had screw-link couplings to keep the buffers together. 

Unfitted wagons had loose three-link couplings so care had to be taken when the train slowed down and stopped, the brake van would be deployed as the guard applied his brakes. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 05, 2018, 09:24:26 am
I bought the MAINLINE 37-058 OO GAUGE GWR 2251 CLASS COLLETT 0-6-0 before I decided to model N Gauge. Does anyone know if it's been done in N?

Leon

Apart from the Union Mills model, there was one by Peco which occasionally appears on eBay. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 08, 2018, 11:49:55 pm
There's not likely to be much interest until I start laying track, but I did promise an image of the layout site. The image below shows the two desks that will provide a base for the layout frame (my carpenter has agreed to complete it "sooner than later"). I've decided to top the frame with a 2" x 4' x 8' sheet of Dow Corning Extruded Foam. After a lot of research, I decided that a sheet of plywood would not be necessary, as others have reported the successful use of this board for layouts. I hope to have the first phase of track laying completed by the end of the summer and the topography finished over the winter. Hopefully, some of the buildings will be completed, also. The second stage of track laying (the north/south line from Biss River Station to Marsh View Halt) will probably be delayed until Spring. Finally, the sidings, associated buildings, and scenic landscaping will be undertaken during the second year of the project. My wiring will be left to the end, but should be relatively simple - just a tad expensive (all Kato except for one controller).

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-080718234835.jpeg)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Dorsetmike on July 09, 2018, 05:17:59 pm
If that is to be your "Railway room" you need a Terence Cuneo print in that big frame! :whistle:    :-[

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM: (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM:)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 09, 2018, 09:21:18 pm
If that is to be your "Railway room" you need a Terence Cuneo print in that big frame! :whistle:    :-[

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM: (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=terence+cuneo+railway+prints&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwik14L6s5LcAhXOa8AKHea5CmsQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1401&bih=613#imgrc=dDmhqv3HTX1kKM:)

You're right, Mike, but I don't buy prints and can't afford an original Cuneo! *sigh* There's nothing wrong with a quality print, btw. I have bought them in the past, but  it's hard enough to get some of the investment back from the originals. Mind you, I'm out of touch. Cuneo may command the kinds of prices as a Russell Flint. I sold one of Flint's  signed prints for enough to cover the cost of delivering it to the buyer in Toronto, plus dinner and a night in a nice hotel.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 09, 2018, 09:50:03 pm
Some people may be interested in the extruded polystyrene. I'm adding an image below and will be happy to provide others upon request. They don't show a lot, but I had little idea what to expect before I picked up the board this afternoon. I was able to carry it with one hand! And, it's 8' x 4' x 2". Much lighter than I expected, but it seems very solid and strong. I'll give the top a couple coats of brown latex paint (emulsion) and the 2" thick perimeter a couple coats of green.

The wood shop sent me an estimate, today, for the frame - $450.  That's a bit more than I anticipated, but I'll probably accept the price if it's firm and will be completed promptly. The quote is for a poplar frame 1" x 4" with good vertical and horizontal bracing. I had asked for 1" x 3", but I guess the carpenter thinks the extra inch is justified, and I can't question his judgement.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-090718214739.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 09, 2018, 09:56:20 pm
Leon - if possible lay out your track plan on the board before getting any framing done.
That way, you will know where the points fall and you can mark where you want the cross framing to be, allowing for underboard point motors. The alternative is the carpenter puts the bracing where he thinks best and then you have to juggle the track plan to ensure there is no bracing where you want a point motor to go. I know which I prefer.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2018, 12:24:02 am
Leon - if possible lay out your track plan on the board before getting any framing done.
That way, you will know where the points fall and you can mark where you want the cross framing to be, allowing for underboard point motors. The alternative is the carpenter puts the bracing where he thinks best and then you have to juggle the track plan to ensure there is no bracing where you want a point motor to go. I know which I prefer.

Mick, thanks very much for the suggestion. I have a pretty good idea where I'll be drilling from the AnyRail plan which is on a one foot grid, and there doesn't appear to be a problem with the present configuration. I've instructed the carpenter to place a brace every two feet. Things DO change, though!  Remember, there won't be any underboard point motors (all Kato points). Another benefit of the insulation board is that if I have to, I can cut a shallow trench for running the wire. When the frame is delivered, I'll draw an outline on the foamboard before turning it over and gluing it to the frame.  If you see a fallicy in any of this please DO let me know.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2018, 06:20:33 pm
I believe that Granges were mixed traffic. I am sure I've seen pics of them on freight trains.

I have read through your older posts today and just wondered if you could fit a turntable in the between the loco shed and the curved branch line with a kickback from the lower loco track? The Peco table is only 6 inches in diameter or, maybe, I have misjudged the size of that area. Just a thought.

Chris, I've finally found time to re-adjust the left bottom corner of my layout for the Peco turntable. It can work, but the plan change reverts to the tight curve which was the subject of several comments here when I first posted my layout plan. I'm staying with the layout WITHOUT the turntable in the meantime, but will take a look at it in the second phase of my track-laying. I'll not do the sidings and associated buildings until the third stage of construction (see previous post), so there's time to add the turntable - but not that much time before I have to make a decision about the curve. The turntable isn't possible, on my layout, without the tight curve. The fact is the curve doesn't really matter, except for visual aesthetics for I'll only be running a tank and autocoach around the curve. Even that isn't necessary as I can limit the autocoach service to Biss River or send it along the east/west line. Marsh View Halt and Biss River Station are an integral part of the layout for fidelity to Westbury, but it's impossible to show the importance of that line with my limited space.

Thanks again for your suggestion. I still question WHEN the turntable at Westwood was constructed (maybe it wasn't there before nationalization). Southern District locos DID turn there, but I still have to be convinced that Southern Railways locos turned there (it seems more logical, to me, they would have turned at Salisbury). There can be no doubt that Westbury became much more important after nationaization. I've just read the Southern Railways Handbook and I'm still clueless about which company owned the Westbury to Salisbury track. If it WAS owned by Southern, then my logic is erroneous. Can anyone provide a definitive answer about ownership of the track?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 10, 2018, 06:57:59 pm
The Westbury to Salisbury line was GWR. That railway had it's own terminus station in Salisbury, closed in 1932.

See:

Railmap online http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php (http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_railway_station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salisbury_railway_station)

The GWR Grange class were very much a mixed traffic loco as were the Halls and Manors. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_Western_Railway (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotives_of_the_Great_Western_Railway)

http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index-st.htm (http://www.greatwestern.org.uk/index-st.htm)


Some background reading for you Leon

cheers Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 10, 2018, 07:12:08 pm
According to Wikipedia the present station was built in 1899. I have found a web page that implies the shed with turntable was opened soon after.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station)

https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf (https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf)

Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 10, 2018, 10:21:19 pm
According to Wikipedia the present station was built in 1899. I have found a web page that implies the shed with turntable was opened soon after.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station[/url] ([url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station[/url])

[url]https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf[/url] ([url]https://www.wiltshire-opc.org.uk/Items/Westbury/Westbury%20-%20New%20Engine%20Sheds.pdf[/url])

Norman


Norman,

Thanks for your input and the links you shared. I've followed them all. The picture that accompanied the article referred to in the Wiltshire Times was shot after regionalization. There is no doubt there was a turntable at that time, and I have a book that includes the engine shed picture and one of the turntable (and others, photographed in the 60s, I believe). Your other internet references show conclusively that GWR operated the line to Salisbury from broad gauge days - stengthening my arguement that during GWR days there was probably no need for a turntable at Westbury.

if you're interested, take a look at the OS Map at http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2625&lon=-2.2009&layers=10&b=1. (http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2625&lon=-2.2009&layers=10&b=1.) That map was drawn after 1942, but most likely before regionalization. It shows are far more modest station, though there is a fairly large engine shed (but with only two tracks leading in) and what was probably the coal staging building. No sign of a turntable.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 10, 2018, 11:04:43 pm
While I agree the picture in the link is post nationalisation, if you read the text carefully it says that the engine shed was completed shortly after the station rebuild (in 1899) and included a 65' turntable.

Your link to the NLS map site doesn't work for me.

On the NLS web site there is a map from 1924 that clearly shows the new station and a turntable: https://maps.nls.uk/view/106029997

Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 11, 2018, 01:16:54 am
While I agree the picture in the link is post nationalisation, if you read the text carefully it says that the engine shed was completed shortly after the station rebuild (in 1899) and included a 65' turntable.

Your link to the NLS map site doesn't work for me.

On the NLS web site there is a map from 1924 that clearly shows the new station and a turntable: https://maps.nls.uk/view/106029997

Norman

Norman, congratulations! I'm really indebted to you for providing me with this additional information. Westbury had a roundtable in 1922!!! And, the workings of the station were far more extensive than they were at some point after 1942, and before regionalization. Also, Westbury Iron Works was still operating and is featured prominantly in the map. No doubt a lot of the track in 1922 was associated with the Iron Works. Interestingly, there was a tramway on the iron Works side. It's not clear to me the purpose of the tramway (passenger or industrial?). The station was/is some distance from the town.

You must have spent some significant time with your research! I promise to commit a bit more of my time to try and discover what the station/junction was like c. 1938. The Iron Works closed in 1933. It's academic, but as an American states in their advertising, "Inquiring minds want to know!"

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 11, 2018, 02:06:46 am
Norman, I've done a bit more research of the OS maps without success. There are too many missing sheets. The map I've been using is Zoomable graphic indexes showing records for large-scale Ordnance Survey mapping of Great Britain (1841-1991). This is a composite map, obviously including sheets that aren't available in the section Ordnance Survey, 1:25,000 maps of Great Britain - 1937-1961 - 2,027 sheets. It clearly shows the Engine Shed (only two tracks) and the Coaling Stage, but no tracks where the 1922 map shows the turntable. The composite map was drawn after 1942 and the Army Supply Depot was still there. I'll try to find time to see if I can find information about the Army site that would include the date it was closed. That would narrow the time period when the map in the composite (zoomable edition) was drawn.

My conclusion hasn't changed, except to acknowledge that GWR did have a turntable in 1922, and the works at Westbury were extensive - contrasted with the situation after 1942 (and probably before nationalization), at which time the Iron Works were gone.

Very interesting - but not to many people! So, I think I'll let it rest. :) Thank you SO much for your interest. And, I'll be interested if you should find more information.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on July 11, 2018, 06:25:31 am
I think you need to ask yourself, Leon, how accurate does the model need to be?  In my opinion, the main thing is to create the aura of Westbury in that period and if you have to guess a few things, that might enhance rather than detract from the model.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 11, 2018, 09:16:15 am
Leon, The track plan and size of the station probably didn't change much until the resignalling in the early 1980s. It's likely that during WW2 the siding facilities were enlarged to cater for the war time traffic. Here's another site to look at with before and after pictures of the 1980 resignalling. (Scroll down to the bottom)

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html# (http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#)

Westbury engine shed closed in 1963.

I agree with Laurence -  create an impression of Westbury and given the space ypou have accept a few compromises.
Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 11, 2018, 05:47:12 pm
Leon, The track plan and size of the station probably didn't change much until the resignalling in the early 1980s. It's likely that during WW2 the siding facilities were enlarged to cater for the war time traffic. Here's another site to look at with before and after pictures of the 1980 resignalling. (Scroll down to the bottom)

[url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url] ([url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url])

Westbury engine shed closed in 1963.

I agree with Laurence -  create an impression of Westbury and given the space ypou have accept a few compromises.
Norman


Thanks to Laurence and Norman for their encouragement, and to Norman for providing that excellent link (above).

I spent more than thirty mintues crafting (?) a reply only to delete it while checking on a link to the OS map I've referred to several times in previous posts. That map is my basis for modeling my layout, as I know it was drawn after 1942. The Westbury Iron Works are gone and the extensive track that existed previously and subsequently at  Westbury is absent. So was the turntable which was there in 1922. A link to that map is added, and I've tested it by clearing my history, so it should work.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2639&lon=-2.1991&layers=10&b=1 (http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/print/#zoom=16.837666858961263&lat=51.2639&lon=-2.1991&layers=10&b=1)

I rest my case that the Wiltsbury Junction layout will faithfully represent the station/junction as it existed in 1938 until nationalization. I'd love to have a turntable, as I have a Southern locomotive which would look great on the layout, but without proof it would be a misrepresentation. One thing I've learned in these few short months - change was a way of life with the railroads, and removing a turntable and replacing it a few years later would have been a minor alteration in their operation.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 11, 2018, 06:08:19 pm
Hi Leon.
I cannot provide proof but that turntable was there from about 1903 till closure in 1963.
The depot simply couldnít operate without it.
So many trains would either terminate or change engines at Westbury. All of those had to be turned to work back to where they came from.

Looking forward to seeing your layout develop.

Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 11, 2018, 11:30:10 pm
Leon, this time the link you have provided works for me. The map revealed is, in my opinion, not of large enough scale to accurately define the track layout. I can't find the scale of it, but it looks like one of our 'general' OS maps as used for road and footpath navigation. The railway parts of it are what I would call 'indicative'. For instance all the lines into Westbury in 1942 were double track but the map only shows a 'single' line, though I expect that the key would state that the black/white hatched railway lines were double tracked. There are larger scale maps on the NLS web site that show the multiplicity of tracks through the station and the engine shed layout with a turntable. (See my earlier post for https://maps.nls.uk/view/10602999 (https://maps.nls.uk/view/10602999)).

I have, from my 1960s trainspotting days, a book of shed diagrams for the Western Region and there definitely was a turntable until the shed closed in 1963. It is unlikely to have been removed and replaced.

The Signalling Record Society have signal box diagrams for Westbury from which you can see the track layouts in the 1920s to the 1950s and they are far more complicated than you are asserting. see:

https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S394.htm (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S394.htm)
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S395.htm (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S395.htm)
https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S396.htm (https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/gwb/S396.htm)

I am not suggesting that you revise your layout plan by any means but trying to show you that by looking at the 'wrong' map you are being mislead about the ongoing size of the facilities and the station at Westbury.

Norman
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 11, 2018, 11:34:43 pm
Here's a map from 1941 showing the station, shed and turntable.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 01:09:40 am
Here's a map from 1941 showing the station, shed and turntable.

https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356

Norman, this 1941 map revision is the proof I've been looking for!  Also, I have great respect for Martin's fund of knowledge about Westbury. My layout WILL include a turntable!

After 1941, the East Loop Junction was built, the Westbury Iron Works removed, and an Army Supply Depot was built in the vicinity of the Westbury Station. Lots of changes! My map has a lot of detail, so I hope you can understand why I'm a little incredulous that a cartographer would not have shown the turntable.

Thanks, once more, for devoting so much time to confirm the presence of the turntable within my modeling period. I can't be completely prototypical, but I can be historically correct. So, the alternate layout plan (which I've already done) will be the basis of further revision. I may need to eliminate Marsh View and have the rail line depart the board on the lower left side rather than the lower left bottom of the layout. It's much easier for me and the addition of a turntable will allow me to park my Southern locomotive. As of now, my plan will be modelled on the 1941 revised OS map. All's well that end's well! :) End of story - I hope.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 12, 2018, 05:46:19 am
Good news about the turntable Leon. Just makes me wonder how much easier it is to belong to a forum like this when planning a project. There are so many people who seem willing to dig around and help with research etc.

Out of interest, anyone, when did the chord to the north of Westbury which made a triangle (from the northward line to the westward line) get installed?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 03:56:47 pm
Good news about the turntable Leon. Just makes me wonder how much easier it is to belong to a forum like this when planning a project. There are so many people who seem willing to dig around and help with research etc.

Out of interest, anyone, when did the chord to the north of Westbury which made a triangle (from the northward line to the westward line) get installed?

Chris,

The "chord" was constructed in 1942. Documented in numerous places including - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westbury_railway_station#/media/File:Westbury_routes.png

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 12, 2018, 04:44:36 pm
Thanks Leon. I looked on Wikipedia and there is a small schematic map of the area. I have to say you have turned it into a continuous-run layout very ingeniously!  :claphappy:

I, like others, look forward to seeing this appear in 3D!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 06:53:05 pm
I've just completed the umpteenth iteration of my layout, but I dare not show it! I've incorporated every suggestion that's been made, I think. Wiser minds must be heeded! I hesitate, but I think I've done the best that I can do. I know, I've said that before and encouragement and further contributions take me back to the drawing board (AnyRail). I'm not confident there won't be more changes, thus my reticence to reveal where I am on the eve of laying track. I'll have to get it right at that point! I'm not happy with the space I have for the engine shed. I've discovered from photographs and historical sources that the Westbury shed was huge. Indeed, British History Online state that "In 1915 the G.W.R. opened their locomotive workshops there." So, the engine shed I will eventially add to the layout will be a sad representation of the actual shed. The entire left quandrant of the layout is too densely built up, but all the functions of the station are represented, I hope - though very much condensed and compact. My coal merchant is almost sitting on the makin avoiding line and there may be cows outside the passenger station! :) Oh, I almost forget. I was able to lengthen the platforms - a bit.
 
Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 12, 2018, 08:11:04 pm
GO ON, GO ON, GO ON!!!!!!!!!!!! Show us your new plan!!!!!!!!!!!! I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In fact, I insist, and, as an Englishman, I expect to be obeyed!!!!!!!!!!!!  :veryangry:

No, seriously, I would love to see how you've adjusted things. Good news if you've managed to get some extra platform length in.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 12, 2018, 08:14:49 pm
Seconded......go on Leon.
Letís see your latest plan. Please!!!!!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 12, 2018, 09:56:44 pm
It didn't take much for me to relent! :)  Please note the colors - blue is the first section of track I'll be laying; light green is the second stage; and, the wine color will be the final phase of track. If AnyRail is anywhere near accurate, the first two phases should go smoothly. Note, also, that the ovals don't connect on the right side. I'll be using extendable track to close the gaps.

Please ask questions, state obvious faults, but PLEASE don't suggest any changes that isn't absolutely necessary. I'm expecting the baseboard foundation on the weekend and would like to start laying track next week.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-120718214743.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 12:20:15 am
Dare I say it? I've made another adjustment! How many of you saw in the 1941 OS map that only one line ran between the Westbury platforms? Be honest! I've made an alteration that satisfies me, if it works when I run trains on the track. I'll share it when I know it works! Another thing I should have pointed out with the plan - beginning with the last foot and a half on either side of the layout, the track will be underground. The contour varies, though, so that only about six inches of the layout is elevated at the rear of the board. The height will be just enough for the trains to clear. I colored in one of my earlier printouts to show the contours, so I'll probably do this again. It helps me to invisage the rail inclines I'll have to build.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 07:53:41 am
Thank you Leon for the updated plan. Looking good. You really are researching this.

Just a few thoughts, mostly about the new layout of the loco shed.

1) Where you have the entry point into the depot is awfully close to the left hand edge of the baseboard. I fear you may end up with no useful length of headshunt. You have included a short length of straight track between the loco depot access point and the goods depot entry point. If you remove this the points will be closer and you MAY manage to accommodate a tender loco in the extended headshunt. I appreciate that the western-most scissors crossover is the governing factor but perhaps if you revert to your original platform lengths and move that scissors a bit further east you can have a practical lead for the loco depot.

2) The loco shed tracks use a right hand point. As this point is preceded by a left hand curve this will be better if you use a left hand point instead of the curve which will look better and make your shed sidings a bit longer.

3) If you move the turntable a bit south so that the line feeding the turntable is closer to the loco coaling line, or even make the coaling line the turntable feed, you could add a further 1 or 2 sidings in the loco shed area which will make the depot look more like the prototype. You say in an earlier thread that you felt it would be a poor representation of the depot and this idea could rectify this for you.

4) With the shortness of the loco depot headshunt I think you'll have to accept that the coaling stage and coal merchant will be more scenic adjuncts rather than functional as you won't have the room in the headshunt to bring a tank loco and wagons in and out. A more daring but perfectly practical solution would be to swap the right hand point accessing the goods depot with a left hand point which would then cause the access point for the loco depot and the headshunt to angle up and left towards the baseboard edge. This will enable a longer headshunt and as you suggest the mainline will be underground won't interfere with the rest of your plan. Also you could then leave the western scissors where it is and keep your new longer platforms. You could even lead the headshunt right into he top left-hand corner if you wanted a longer headshunt and you could take coal wagons in and out of the yard.
I hope I have expressed those thoughts clearly. It is early!

A great plan! Let me know what you think.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 13, 2018, 08:01:17 am
Hi Leon
I concur with Chrisí points.
Also.....and this is just my thoughts and might prove impractical or not of i terest. If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle. However as that wasnít added till 1942 is that out of your tome frame?
Other than that, itís a cracking representation of the area in the space you have at your disposal.
Looking forward to track being laid.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 08:46:52 am
If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle.

An interesting idea Martin and one I looked at before but I couldn't see how Leon could incorporate the 180 degree curve. Do you think it could fit?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 13, 2018, 10:04:03 am
If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle.

An interesting idea Martin and one I looked at before but I couldn't see how Leon could incorporate the 180 degree curve. Do you think it could fit?
Yes Chris, when I looked it seemed tight. Possibly with a curved point?
Interestingly Leon, as you know I used to fish the right hand pond a lot. One of my favourite locations (known as ďthe muddy cornerĒ) was just where your 5th tree from the left is.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 10:33:24 am
If you shortened the siding above the pond just a bit, you could add a spur off the inner blue line and effectively re-create the East Chord triangle.

An interesting idea Martin and one I looked at before but I couldn't see how Leon could incorporate the 180 degree curve. Do you think it could fit?
Yes Chris, when I looked it seemed tight. Possibly with a curved point?
Interestingly Leon, as you know I used to fish the right hand pond a lot. One of my favourite locations (known as ďthe muddy cornerĒ) was just where your 5th tree from the left is.
Martin

Well it would be an interesting addition if the curvature will fit. All he would need is a couple of well placed signals and a DPDT. The new plan would allow Leon to run SR stock in headed by an SR loco then swap for a WR loco while the SR loco is turned ready for the return journey or vice versa. I believe that this kind of operation happened at Salisbury but a little modellers' licence is all that would be needed. Should make for an interesting layout with enjoyable operations.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 13, 2018, 11:47:25 am
Sorry, Leon, but I agree with Chris in that, if the headshunt to loco and goods yards can't be extended, then everything in those yards is virtually relegated to being static exhibits. As it stands there's not room for a tender loco to exit the shed, let alone any trucks from the goods yard/coaling area :hmmm:
I have previously mentioned the use of a point instead of a curve to lengthen sidings and remove an unneeded 'S' from the track plan but in the case Chris mentions I would put a LH point in place of the LH curve to the loco shed and let that line join the turntable line. I like the idea of a piece of track where another loco can wait patiently to be turned without totally blocking access to the turntable. Just a thought, though.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on July 13, 2018, 01:32:53 pm
Would agree with the other, the headshunt is too short plus I still can't see how you are going to get the wine coloured headshunt over the blue tracks (left hand bottom corner'ish) without having a ski slope to get clearance.   :worried:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 04:56:42 pm
A hearty thank you to all who have commented! The suggestions will be addressed one by one and I'll direct my questions and the obstacles I face to each of you, later. I'm awaiting the delivery of my baseboard frame! I painted the foam board yesterday in chocolate and green. I think the directors would be pleased, but I don't think they'd hire me as a painter! :)

I was surprised that no one commented on the single line between platforms! Why do you think that was done? I've taken another look this morning (after sleeping on it for I thought maybe I'd misread the map). Incidentally, the only skill I posess for building this layout is map reading, and I don't think the cartographer made a mistake! Each of you is free to disagree, however, and if you do disagree I'd like for you to tell me. As most of you must realize, I know little about railroad operations!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 05:08:22 pm
Would agree with the other, the headshunt is too short plus I still can't see how you are going to get the wine coloured headshunt over the blue tracks (left hand bottom corner'ish) without having a ski slope to get clearance.   :worried:

Hi, Caz. I guess you weren't reading the early posts on the other thread (planning). The whole station track area is above the level of the station, and the blue line is at the station level (probably a bit lower). The blue line will rise slightly, shortly after the upper right hand curve (not much room is needed for the down incline as the road under the railway dips at that point), and descend gradually after the bridge in the lower right hand straight. Plenty of room to descend before passing under the wine colored line. I think! Thanks for your observation, and others have made me aware of the need to move the head shut a bit to the right. The last change of plan was done in a bit of haste, and I just overlooked that in my satisfaction that I'd found a solution to the other issues. I'm using Kato, exclusively, and am rather limited. One person, for example, suggested a curved point. Kato doesn't make curved points!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 05:23:15 pm
Hi Leon. Glad you found our collective (borg-like) thoughts useful. I can't answer the question about the single line between the platforms. The pics you have posted show 2 tracks that split either side of the signal box at one end - which end I don't know. Excellent news about painting your board and the incoming frame. Hope you are pleased with them.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 05:43:45 pm
Hi Leon. Glad you found our collective (borg-like) thoughts useful. I can't answer the question about the single line between the platforms. The pics you have posted show 2 tracks that split either side of the signal box at one end - which end I don't know. Excellent news about painting your board and the incoming frame. Hope you are pleased with them.

Chris, I'm a happy camper! My frame was just delivered and it looks just like the picture I shared with him. I can't judge carpentry any better than train stuff, but it sure looks good to me. Now, I just need to give the foamboard another coat of paint and glue it to the frame (the frame looks so good, I hate to mess it up with glue!). By Monday I'll be testing the track plan. With a little luck, I'll have a confirmed Phase 1 plan by the end of the week and can start doing the topographical contours. Almost everyone (of those commenting) has had reservations about the track crossings. It's hard to show on a two dimenstional drawing, but I've never seen a problem. I've been there and walked the perimeter of the station, and driven down and along the express line. The elevaton at Westbury rises gradually from the town north beyond the station, though it appears to me that between the building of the railway and Westbury Iron Works, the elevation was probably artifically raised. Be that as it may, there's plenty room for the station lines to pass over the express line. In reality, out of the station the lines west and south are built on embankments.

For those who are considering my question about the single line through the station, here again is the map link - https://maps.nls.uk/view/101463356. I love that map, by the way!

More later after I've studied the suggestions and played a little more with AnyRail.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 06:03:01 pm
Glad the frame is a success. You might consider adding some screws as well. Gluing 'n' screwing a baseboard to it's frame is very common. Just in case the glue fails over time. Something of a belt 'n' braces approach!

Forgive me, but I have noticed several times that you keep saying things like "I don't know anything about railroading". Judging by your very clever adaptation and interpretation of Westbury into a functional model railway track plan I think you are being unduly harsh on yourself Sir!!  I would wager that none of us are absolute experts and the learning of the multitude of skills involved with railway/railroad modelling is one of the benefits/joys of the hobby e.g. visualization, planning, daydreaming, carpentry, electronics (which you can take as far as you like), art, painting - the list goes on. If Rule 1 states that you can run what you like on your railway, then, maybe, Rule 2 should be "Enjoy the journey into the hobby"?

Good luck with the initial tracklaying. The mainline looks like the obvious place to start as you can then run trains and work your way into the Wiltsbury station. This will give time to finalise those odd details which seem to have entranced so many of us here! It really is a great plan and deserves to be a triumph!
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 07:24:11 pm
Good luck with the initial tracklaying. The mainline looks like the obvious place to start as you can then run trains and work your way into the Wiltsbury station. This will give time to finalise those odd details which seem to have entranced so many of us here! It really is a great plan and deserves to be a triumph!

Chris, self denegration does become a bore! :) But, truthfully...! My purpose is to enjoy the twilight of my life, and this project will provide that for so long as I'm healthy enough to engage. My baseboard frame was too expensive for me, so it is an 80th birthday gift from my wife!

You've seen clearly my operational plan. I ran my locomotives for the first time for just a few minutes last week. I want to get the oval in place and the line through the station so that I can test my locomotives (and wagons), and the points. During that period, I'll be building up the terrain around the rails and establishing workable inclines.

I've already gone to AnyRail and made some modifications. I found some extra room on the left side to extend the headshunt. I now have 192 mm before the point. My 5044 is 120 mm, the 14xx is 65 mm, and the wagons are in the 25-30 mm range, for the most part. Do you think that will suffice? Part of the room I took from the right side of the layout, moving the rails a bit closer than I like to the edge. There will have to be compromises, but I want to be historically correct. I'll post the plan with revisions as soon as I get things cleaned up.

I'm still playing with some of the other issues, but would like to point out that I'm trying to place the rail yard functions as close as I can to they way they existed in 1941. Both the goods station and the shed were much further from the station than I can show them, but from top to bottom they are in the right order, though the shed should be further from the station than the goods station. The coaling stage is right where it should be, but the coal merchant is an "add on". It seems logical that there would be a coal merchant and that he would be near the coaling stage. Finally, there was a cattle pen between the goods station and the passenger station. I wanted to include that in the model, but may have to exercise poetic license, once more, and add it somewhere else. As you stated, there is time to work out these details.

Martin, I think of you fishing every time I work on the layout plan! I'm not tied to 1941, but except for the chord and the army supply depot, there wasn't much change before nationalization so far as I can see. (I've bought an army vehicle to put on the road that would have led to the supply depot!) The old iron works removed prior to 1941 and a cheese factory was built at the 45 degree turn of the road to Ham above the station. I may add a factory where the cheese factory was located (and may still exist as there is a large dairy processing facility in Westbury a bit further north).  I have a couple of locomotives that are post 1942, and the army vehicle is post 1942. I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about the single track between the platforms! My solution for converting from two to one track isn't perfect, but does allow me to place the signal box correctly between tracks.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 13, 2018, 07:42:20 pm
Hi Leon
Re the single track.
If you view any photos of Westbury station there arre two tracks between the platforms. Just google Westbury station and choose pictures.
Those platforms havenít moved and as far as I am aware there has always been double tracks between platforms 2 and 3. Operationally to have only one track would make no sense.
I can only assume that your map has simplified things somewhat.
Martin

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 07:51:55 pm
From the measurements you are quoting for the new headshunt and your wagons it would seem that a loco and 4 wagons should fit. My Bachmann Farish catalogue states that one of their pannier tanks is 67mm so 67+(30x4)=187mm which is less than your 192mm. However, if you wish to post a new Anyrail plan we can take a look and see if you can buy some extra length. Also if the headshunt is 192mm then the lead into the goods yard will also include the length of the loco depot access point which may allow for another wagon or 2.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 13, 2018, 08:24:32 pm
I see what you mean about the single tracks through the station then opening out to two. It seems a strange arrangement but maybe at the time space for the station area as a whole was limited :hmmm:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 08:37:19 pm
I have seen some very grainy old pics of Westbury Station and there are 2 tracks between the main platforms. The pics all seem to pre-date your era and, judging by the locos and rolling stock, are pre-big four. Often when the GWR was converted from broad gauge to standard gauge it may have been that there was room to place 2 tracks where previously there had only been 1 but, where platforms were concerned, there would still have needed to be an increase in space to accommodate them. I am of the opinion that it is a simplification on the map although sidings etc. seem well represented. The Great Westbury Conundrum?

I think you will be safe having 2 tracks Leon. Look forward to seeing the new plan ;)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 13, 2018, 08:40:03 pm
Hi Leon
Re the single track.
If you view any photos of Westbury station there arre two tracks between the platforms. Just google Westbury station and choose pictures.
Those platforms havenít moved and as far as I am aware there has always been double tracks between platforms 2 and 3. Operationally to have only one track would make no sense.
I can only assume that your map has simplified things somewhat.
Martin

Martin, I crafted a careful and detailed response and posted it - but it has disappeared. Rather than attempt to re-write it, just let me say that you know how much respect I have for you, and how much I appreciate your in-put. I can't deny a cartographer's drawing at the scale of the one I'm using, however. In 1941, there was just one track running between platforms in Westbury. :)  I've read of changes made to the Westbury platforms over the years, but didn't understand what I was reading and now can't recall what I read. Bottom line is I'm only able to attempt a model based upon what I can see. I agree a single line doesn't make sense, on the face of it. But neither did the use of the same track for up and down traffic which I saw with my own eyes when I was there in June. A trainspotter told me it was standard practice at Westbury. Things DO change, and some changes don't last long enough to be captured in a photograph.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 08:58:11 pm
Looking at your reply to Martin above I would have to say your logic, Spock, as always, is impeccable. However, the camera, as they say, never lies and perhaps it is safer to go with the overwhelming amount of evidence they are providing. If, as you say, a modification was made to the number of platform roads then this would have meant widening the platforms then cutting them back again when double track was re-instated. A rather expensive change for what benefit?

You have had to accept concessions and compromises in your plan so why trouble yourself about this, potentially, short-lived possibility. You have changed the name from Westbury to Wiltsbury so you are now relieved from complete historical accuracy anyway. If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you. How do you wish to operate the station taking into account the number of trains you envisage running? Personally, I'd stick to 2 simply for operational flexibility.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 13, 2018, 09:48:25 pm
I am warming to this subject. Leon, you are perfectly at liberty to shoot me or to ask the USAF to perform a surgical airstrike upon my house but I am going to put my neck on the block and offer (yet) another suggestion. Can I offer the outrageous notion that you eliminate the scissors crossover at the right hand end of the station? That way you could realign the tracks coming from the top platform so that the upper most platform track continues as a straight line and the uppermost of the 2 middle platform tracks curves up to join it. This will (surely) create enough space for a correct position for the signal box. This is, also, prototypical for Westbury.

The curve that leads to your small northern station contains a short length of straight track which could be removed to help accommodate this change. A simple crossover running top left to lower right could replace the scissors. It's just I feel that, whereas a scissors at the left end makes perfect sense, one at the right side end is a potentially expensive item for a branch line that, ultimately, terminates at the upper baseboard edge. Does this branch justify access to all 4 platform faces?

If, however, you envisage a possible future northern extension then it may be best to leave it as it is.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 14, 2018, 12:22:43 am
Leon, sorry but you have got it wrong, as has whoever drew the map I sent you. In 1941 there were TWO tracks through the middle platforms. If you review the photographs on this site again http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html# (http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#) you will see there has been TWO tracks through the central platforms since the station was rebuilt in the 1890s. Martin @portperran has confirmed this earlier. Look at again too at the signal box diagrams in the links I sent you earlier.

Conventionally tracks in the past were either up or down and so single direction. However in recent times in the UK many tracks have been rearranged and resignalled for bi directional working. Please do not assume what existed in 1938 is current practice in the UK or vice versa - much has changed.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2018, 01:09:08 am
If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you. How do you wish to operate the station taking into account the number of trains you envisage running? Personally, I'd stick to 2 simply for operational flexibility.


Chris, the fact is that the width of one or both platforms were, apparently altered. That was what I've read, but I didn't understand why.

My layout doesn't require turning engines, but for the benefit of historical accuracy I've added the turntable (which I never wanted and resisted adding). I didn't ever imagine a single line between the platforms, but despite the short space I was able to accommodate that change, also. (See the revised track play below.) That side of Platform 2 is used today, designated as Platform 3, and i was able to watch trains arrive from the west and cross over from the double track to stop at Platform 3 on the outside. So my modeling reflects the actual operation today, and must have been the operation in 1941. The change to a single line through the station gave me room to accommodate the signal box between the two tracks - at the east end of Platform 2, which I couldn't accomplish with two tracks between the platforms. I like that, but not at the expense of historical accuracy!

My daughter has just visited me and suggested the railways were probably lifting redundant track for the war effort! What do you think? Trains were stopping at Platform 3  already, apparently, and with the closing of the iron works and the building of the avoiding line, one of the tracks may have been deemed redundant - along with a lot of other track (as indicated by a later map). I had not considered the effect of the war effort, but we know the railways paid a price above many industries. Incidentally, if the track was lifted for the war effort, might the turntable and associated track have been lifted after the drawing of this map? We know regular passenger services were reduced or eliminated during the war. Lots to think about; questions that remain unanswered!

I've discovered that people on the forum have very different primary interests. Some like modeling buildings while others like running trains, etc. I think my primary interest is modeling the terrain and representing a real place within a specific time frame. Scale of location is important, but I can't put everything on my board for the realism I'd like. I can be honest with my representation, however, and I appreciate those who have confirmed my planned layout does that. I also agree totally with your statement "You have changed the name from Westbury to Wiltsbury so you are now relieved from complete historical accuracy anyway. If you want 1 or 2 tracks through the main platforms is entirely up to you." Frankly, I'd rather have two, but like the redundant track the GWR may have removed in 1941, I'd have to say that my layout doesn't need two railes between the platforms. I'll be running two trains on the avoiding line, bringing one in occasionally to the station, and doing a little shunting. My preference is just to sit back and watch the trains run through a layout I've constructed based on a map and historical research. I think I've said it before; three months ago I'd never heard of Westbury.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-140718014716.jpeg)

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2018, 01:27:55 am
Leon, sorry but you have got it wrong, as has whoever drew the map I sent you. In 1941 there were TWO tracks through the middle platforms. If you review the photographs on this site again [url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url] ([url]http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/taunton-to-westbury.html#[/url]) you will see there has been TWO tracks through the central platforms since the station was rebuilt in the 1890s. Martin @portperran has confirmed this earlier. Look at again too at the signal box diagrams in the links I sent you earlier.

Conventionally tracks in the past were either up or down and so single direction. However in recent times in the UK many tracks have been rearranged and resignalled for bi directional working. Please do not assume what existed in 1938 is current practice in the UK or vice versa - much has changed.


Norman, first I have to admit that I can't read the signal diagrams! Secondly, I may have it wrong. However, I've just posted a message in response to Chris that offers another explanation - track uplifted to aid the war effort. Now, as far fetched as that may sound, don't dismiss it out of hand, as a single rail through the station and the one which later became Platform 3 would have probably been adequate for the traffic during wartime. Most likely the majority of traffic was routed on the avoiding line. Also, the iron works' rails were redundant, and the army supply depot had their own rail system. What I'm suggesting is feasible, and my bet is that none of us know much about the wartime operation at this station. If the station was altered, it would have been for maybe five years. A short space of time in the history of GWR and Westbury. Finally, OS cartographers wouldn't make the kind of mistake you're attributing to them, and looking at undated pictures doesn't help.

As always, thanks for reflecting on this issue affecting my layout plan.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2018, 02:35:46 am
Martin and Chris have convinced me to let it be MY railroad! Since I can't adequately model the scale of the Westbury Engine Depot, I'm eliminating the turntable (which would dwarf my shed). I'll run my trains through the station track as presently configured, and if there are problems - or if it just doesn't look right - I'll revert to two rails between the platforms. Other potential changes will not significantly impact the historical accuracy of the layout - which will now be modeled for 1942 to account for the GWR monogram on some of my locomotives. Any other inconsistencies I'll plead Rule #1 - like everyone else. :) I'll post pictures of my frame and the painted foamboard, but otherwise I'm going to be quiet for a while while I go to work on the track laying and topography. And, they all said AMEN!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 14, 2018, 08:36:22 am
Whilst I understand and applaud you seeking perfect hisotrical accuracy within the limitations you have, I donít understand why youíve singled the line through the platforms. Ok there is one map, not a track diagram, which shows it. This against the overwhelming evidence of photos and opinions of others, and what you have said youíd rather do.

Lifting track wasnít trivial, they wouldnít realign the platforms to help the war effort, it would be pointless. We know for a fact that before and after the war there were two tracks. It seems incomprehensible that the map you have is correct, so altering your plan to accommodate it seems a curious choice.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 14, 2018, 08:45:09 am
Hi Leon. Like the new plan. It should work well. I still feel using a left hand point to access the goods yard adjacent to the loco depot to angle the loco depot access point and the headshunt up and left will make entry and exit from both yards easier. It still looks a bit tight at the moment. Losing the turntable will give you more space for a meaningful loco depot.

I have built a couple of Peco turntables and I have found it difficult to make them spin smoothly. They don't have wheels which run on the circle of track like the OO gauge version does and use rounded plastic pieces instead. Also you would need to decide whether you want to have a hand-crank or an electric motor to turn the table and alignment would need to be by eye in either case. It would look nice but, if you don't need it, better to use the space for a bigger loco shed.

Good luck with getting your first tracks down. Look forward to seeing and hearing about your progress. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 14, 2018, 10:25:05 pm
I bought the MAINLINE 37-058 OO GAUGE GWR 2251 CLASS COLLETT 0-6-0 before I decided to model N Gauge. Does anyone know if it's been done in N?

Leon

Apart from the Union Mills model, there was one by Peco which occasionally appears on eBay.

Leon,

You may be interested in this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId)

Usual disclaimer, wording on box implies that although it's DCC-fitted it will run on DC.  Tender-driven I believe.  P&P's about £13.45 to States?   

Some think tender is over-scale, perhaps not as finely detailed as contemporary Farish/Dapol offerings. 

Regards,

Dick. 

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 14, 2018, 11:32:08 pm
I have the BR black version of the Peco one. They're fitted originally with a Lenz decoder which allows running on DC. Yes, the tender is oversize and the drive is from the tender but they are still smart looking locos with more detail than the Union Mills version. Nowhere near the Union Mills price though! I'd be surprised if that one on Fleabay goes for less than £120.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 01:27:37 am


Leon,

You may be interested in this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-Trains-Railways-Boxed-NL-25-0-6-0-Collett-Goods-GWR-Green-Shirtbutton/372365288933?epid=2080500081&hash=item56b2b365e5:g:v3EAAOSwKJhbP4nc#shpCntId)
[/quote]

Thanks for remembering me, Dick! Yes I would be interested, but not at that price. I'll be surprised if they get a bid - but what do I know? I suppose there are people who value the early models who might pay that price. I can buy a new goods locomotive at Hatton's for 124 pounds and after they deduct VAT it's nearer to 100 pounds. Their shipping charge to me has been 3.50 for everything I've bought, so far.

If you see anything else, please give me a shout. It will need to be under 75 pounds if used, though.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 01:34:22 am
Chris, I finally figured out your suggestion!!! That's what I call thinking outside the box! And, it's a nice alternative, though maybe doesn't buy enough room for me to swith to it. I'll keep it in mind, however. It might have been even more attractive before I made the latest changes. Dare I say, I think I may be about where I want to be? Isn't it amazing what switching one piece of track can do in terms of opening up new possibilities? Alas, your kind of thinking doesn't come naturally to me, anymore. :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 15, 2018, 06:27:33 pm

If you see anything else, please give me a shout. It will need to be under 75 pounds if used, though.

Leon
Leon,

There's another Shirtbutton one here, but it probably won't be under £75 when the bidding starts! 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Union-Mills-Models-Train-Boxed-GWR-DUKEDOG-32xx-CLASS-440-LOCO-SHIRTBUTTON-3204/352402249782?hash=item520ccf9836%3Ag%3Al90AAOSwiNxbPyfC&_sacat=0&_nkw=union+mills+dukedog&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Union-Mills-Models-Train-Boxed-GWR-DUKEDOG-32xx-CLASS-440-LOCO-SHIRTBUTTON-3204/352402249782?hash=item520ccf9836%3Ag%3Al90AAOSwiNxbPyfC&_sacat=0&_nkw=union+mills+dukedog&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 06:56:24 pm
There's another Shirtbutton one here, but it probably won't be under £75 when the bidding starts! 

Dick, you're probably right. It's a dealer, but at least it starts under 75 pounds. Maybe I should start the bidding? Have you any knowledge of the dealer? Is this one of the models you've bought? It looks kinda fragile (not the model, the loco) compared to the Dapol 2S-009-004 Class 2884 2-8-0 3803 I'm considering. I'd have already bought it, if it came with shirtbutton.


This loco is right for my period, but I've just been reading about it and apparently it was used primarily for passenger work - as I've interpreted the Wikipedea article. I'll probably buy another passesnger loco, but only after I buy one for mainline freight work - or unless the price is VERY attractive.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 15, 2018, 07:58:22 pm
Maybe I should start the bidding? Have you any knowledge of the dealer? Is this one of the models you've bought?

I normally wait until the last moment to see what the price is! 

I've no knowledge of the dealer but assume they're a bona fide charity. 

In BR guise, it's one of the models I'm hoping to buy. 

This loco is right for my period, but I've just been reading about it and apparently it was used primarily for passenger work - as I've interpreted the Wikipedea article. I'll probably buy another passesnger loco, but only after I buy one for mainline freight work - or unless the price is VERY attractive.

I'm not sure if they were mixed traffic locos or not, perhaps others can advise please. 

Regards, Dick.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 15, 2018, 08:35:51 pm
Dick, how old would that Peco model be that you showed. I rather like it, but as I don't see Peco locos for sale, I'm' a bit wary, even if I could buy it for less than the listed price. I'm reluctant to buy used, now, after a couple that I've bought were disappointing. In most cases, I'll pay double for a new one, I think. But, as the new prices continue to rise, so do the used prices - and people are buying them.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 15, 2018, 08:43:47 pm
Those Peco Collett Goods 0-6-0s are no longer made so second hand is your only option I think.
I have one and it works fine.
Do remember that Union Mills also make one and still do as far as I know.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: ten0G on July 15, 2018, 09:45:34 pm
how old would that Peco model be


Leon,

Sorry, I've no idea.  I know it was a limited run, but didn't take too much interest as I thought they were DCC only, and Japan's a bit distant from the British scene. 

I think there are others on the Forum who can help like @Newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264). 

Regards, Dick. 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 15, 2018, 09:54:59 pm
If memory serves the Peco 22xx was released around 2005/6.
I would consider the real thing to be a mixed traffic loco as it was quite happy on local passenger trains as well as pick up goods.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 16, 2018, 03:28:18 am
Good (early) morning Leon. :wave:

How's things going?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 16, 2018, 03:46:37 am
This is it - the final plan before laying track. The image below is Wiltsbury Junction showing elevations in color. The elevations of Westbury and vicinity, the source of my inspiration for this layout, are pretty much as seen here. The lower part of the layout is essentially the elevation of the avoiding line and the town. Follow the road in the lower right and it rises significantly from the railway bridge to the right hand turn. But, before crossing the local lines, after the left turn into Wiltsbury Station, the road is on an embankment. (I walked from the road into the station up steps to the bridge. It is a steep climb of perhaps twenty feet.) After crossing the railroad the road follows the terrain and risees gradually before Biss River Station. A steeper slope is necessary at the top of the layout to conceal the rail and rolling stock that will pass beneath it, the only significant departure from reality. Finally, map contours are drawn at intervals so one must accept many changes in elevation from one contour to the next are quite subtle.

The color contours do not apply to track which will incline and decline for the two bridge crossing - the one over the road passing the Railway Inn into town, and the other crossing under the railroad line between Biss River and Marsh View (not seen). As in reality for the modeled location, tracks are on embankments when elevations are too steep.

Thanks for viewing, and I'll keep the Forum informed in the coming days, weeks, and months. The baseboard has been painted, and the first phase of the track will be layed (temporarily) this week. I expect to test the track by running my locomotives for a few days before lifting the track to begin work on the topography - probably next week, if there are no set backs! The land was here first, so the track will not be laid permanently until after creationl!

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-160718025127.jpeg)


Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 16, 2018, 03:50:57 am
Good (early) morning Leon. :wave:

How's things going?

Chris, I'm ready for MY bed! Have a great day!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 16, 2018, 03:59:40 am
Nice plan Leon. Good luck with Day 1 of the Creation.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 16, 2018, 08:19:44 pm
I've no stock in Dow Corning, so I'll not be advocating for their foam insulation on this Forum. I will be reporting my impressions as I go along. Up until decision time, I was intending to top my frame with plywood and 1" foam board. And, then I found a source referencing extruded polystyrene. I tried to learn something about the product, but was not successful. However, during my searches I found an American modeler who got the idea from Australia and said it had worked great for him. It seems that this board is popular in Australia, and modelers there spoke of it being a U. S. product. So I looked further and the only board I found advertised as "extruded" was the Dow Corning board. The cost was about $35.00. The thing that tipped the scales for me was the thickness - 2".

I've previously shown here the "raw" board and I think I posted a photo of the board after painting. I used latex paint and it was a breeze. Two coats were necessary for a good cover, but I gave the top an extra coat. I have lots of green and chocolate paint left, so I'll use it to paint the foam board I'll use for building the terrain. I'm adding a couple more photos to show a little of the support frame.

In the course of my layout construction if there are problems with the board, I'll mention them, too, and I'm not too proud to admit a mistake, so if I decide that using foam without plywood was a mistake, I'll tell you. Reiterating what I've said already, at this point I'm surprised at just how rigid and strong the board is. And, it should be for it's popular as underfloor insulation. I don't know if it's used in the U. K.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-160718201709.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-160718201747.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 16, 2018, 09:53:17 pm
Nice looking frame and tidy baseboard. Now let the fun begin! :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2018, 02:30:25 am
I had a bit of fun tonight. Fun can be very tiring, though! :) The two ovals in my layout were completed and my hat is off to AnyRail and Kato. Everything fit just as it was supposed to and the track was really easy to lay, lying so snuggly it's not easy to lift from the surface. I found that an ultra thin piece of cardboard worked best, slipped under the track base. I made a few tweeks in AnyRail for tomorrow's task - laying the two double crossovers, track, and points through the station. I was able to move the right double crossover enough to add a significant amount of space to the head shunt on the left side. Nothing else was affected, too much, though I returned to a tight curve leaving the station for Biss River. After completing the track through the station I'll run my locomotives for a few days while I mull over the next phase of track laying (the line to Biss River and beyond). That will be after marking and lifting the track for creating contours, inclines, and tunnels. That will take a a few weeks, no doubt, so after tomorrow no more track laying for a while. I'll post an image of the state of the project, tomorrow.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 18, 2018, 04:36:10 am
Sounds like you have lift off Leon. Look forward to seeing some pics. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 18, 2018, 05:22:04 am
@Leon (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6724)
One thing I will say Leon when using Unitrack for inclines, be careful of where the track joints are in relation to the start of the incline. I have a 'drop down' incline starting immediately after a bridge and it has taken me numerous attempts to get the track to not have an angle where the two pieces of track join! In other words, start with a very gentle incline - hope that makes sense.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 18, 2018, 05:29:40 am
Dannyboy is right Leon. Blend into a gradient with shallower inclines at the top and bottom. A sudden change from flat to incline can cause too much of an angle and will be a hassle to locos and rolling stock.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on July 18, 2018, 06:25:25 am
Sounds like great progress Leon 👍
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 18, 2018, 07:49:02 am
Not a Unitrack user, but could you slit the base with a razor saw to enable more vertical flex at the transition, rather than putting the strain on the joiners?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Caz on July 18, 2018, 08:09:11 am
Sounds like you're really getting somewhere Leon, looking forward to seeing the pictures.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2018, 06:00:38 pm
Not a Unitrack user, but could you slit the base with a razor saw to enable more vertical flex at the transition, rather than putting the strain on the joiners?

I'm not the one to ask, but I've seen demonstrations on YouTube of the base being cut for horizontal flexibility, so I don't see why it couldn't be done for vertible flexibility, as well. The track is rather flexible as is, however. Kato does have physical constraints, but I'm amazed at how they've answered most problems; i.e. the expandable track sections. In my response to Dannyboy, I explained that I'm experimenting with Woodland Scenics 2 percent Incline Starters. I don't have the risers yet, but have used the Incline Starters to join with the one bridge in my oval. (I've only one incline/decline in my oval with plenty of space for clearance.) You'll see the Incline Starter after I've  finished with today's work. I've some domestic tasks to attend to, so most of you may be asleep when I take the photo and post.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 18, 2018, 09:49:41 pm
Sleep? In this heat? Whassat? :goggleeyes:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 01:19:32 am
Most of you are asleep, so it's time for me to report in! Phase one of my track laying (tentative) is short of a few pieces of track. I'm not sure how I miscalculated, but it may be something to do with last minute changes in the layout plan. Nevertheless, I have the up and down ovals finished and one line of track through the station. I'll be assessing my track needs and ordering more before bedtime, here.

I've added several photos below. I'd appreciate comment on a couple of things. First, as I've known all along, the track is very close to the edge of the board, especially at the top and bottom. Second, the sharp curve between the station and Biss River is what I expected, but.... I've included my rail-over-road bridge using a section of 2 degree incline polystyrene on either side. I've not run the locomotives, yet, but it works well with the two coaches you'll see in the photos. Of course, it will be much higher with the inclines beginning and ending a good bit before and after the bridge. Should I go to a steeper incline? I've placed a Peco platform between two tracks, and at the end of the platform I've placed the base of a Ratio Signal Box Kit. i think there is nothing more to mention except that although I'm working on a big board, it sure seems small! The platform is too short and there is going to be some serious crowding of buildings and functions. It's just as it was in the 2D plan, except for a little improvisation when I ran out of track. Maybe it will look more natural as it's built out.

Leon

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010738.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010816.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010846.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010921.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-190718010956.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 01:50:25 am
First thing I will say Leon is - don't let Newportnobby see how close to the edges your tracks are!  ;D. Looking at the pictures as you have them, it looks like you will be operating the layout from the rail over road bridge side. I can envisage a problem in that if you have to lean over the elevated tracks to get to the inevitable mishap at the other side of the layout, damage will be caused! Can the layout be rotated 180į so that the elevated section is at the back - or am I looking at it the wrong way?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 02:20:20 am
First thing I will say Leon is - don't let Newportnobby see how close to the edges your tracks are!  ;D. Looking at the pictures as you have them, it looks like you will be operating the layout from the rail over road bridge side. I can envisage a problem in that if you have to lean over the elevated tracks to get to the inevitable mishap at the other side of the layout, damage will be caused! Can the layout be rotated 180į so that the elevated section is at the back - or am I looking at it the wrong way?

David, you're right. The elevated road crossing is on the lower right corner. No way to alter that. I have access on all four sides of the board, though, so don't really anticipate a problem - though it's the un-anticipated problems that create the worst outcomes. The back of the layout will be elevated, also, with all rails tunneling below the higher terrain. The height will be just enough to clear the trains, however. I doubt there are any tunnels below the GWR London-Bath/Bristol line in the north, but a tunnel is the best solution for this layout.

You're up very early  - or late to bed! I'll be away to my bed, shortly. I guess you're still suffering from the heat. Mick just posted his reaction!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 02:28:58 am
If the layout is accessible from all 4 sides there's no problem. As for being up early - or late - I am working, (sorry, that should read at work). I have convinced the bosses over the last couple of years that, as I am over retirement age, I should reduce my hours. I now work 5 x 12 hour shifts per 2 weeks, so, in effect, I have every second week off work.  :) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: chrispearce on July 19, 2018, 03:34:02 am
 :greatpicturessign:

You have done a lot! I am full of questions but I'm not going to ask them. I will wait and see this develop instead.

One thing - I thought Wiltsbury station was supposed to be higher than the mainline. It seems to be at the same level.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keithbythe sea on July 19, 2018, 07:01:59 am
Great progress, and so tidy!

NN will have very large kittens when he sees how close the track is to the edge. Iíll let him comment 😀

Iíve used a 3% incline on Sonmel which is probably close to the maximum you can use. I would test with your locos and stock before using a slope this steep.

Looking really good  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 19, 2018, 09:34:12 am
Hello Leon

That looks a splendid job; very organised and tidy.

One thing you might just wish to consider at this stage.  From your excellent photographs I can see one pair of power feeds to the tracks (the blue/white wires).  For a layout this size, it could be a good idea to put in a few more power feeds where possible.  Another pair at the far end, for example.  This will reduce the power drop as the electricity makes its way through a lot of 'Unijoiners'.  My Sandrock layout (mostly AT&SF) is 13"x3" (plus a few sidings on a right angle) and it benefitted greatly from additional power feeds.  Before I fitted them, one could see a train slowing down the further it got from the power feeds and then speeding up as it came round the oval and got closer again!

If you choose to try this idea, please say and I'll gladly suggest where you ought not put additional power feeds, based on your track plan.  And, of course, other members of the Forum will be helpful as well.

Great progress.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 19, 2018, 09:42:04 am
Sleep? In this heat? Whassat? :goggleeyes:

You guys don't know the meaning of the word  :P

Leon, the layout is coming along nicely. I too worry about you being able to reach the far tracks easily, though.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 19, 2018, 09:47:47 am
First thing I will say Leon is - don't let Newportnobby see how close to the edges your tracks are!  ;D.


NN will have very large kittens when he sees how close the track is to the edge. Iíll let him comment

You guys have said it for me :P

Sleep? In this heat? Whassat? :goggleeyes:

You guys don't know the meaning of the word  :P


But we live in little boxes which rarely have aircon systems because they're so seldom required (a bit like snowploughs in the winter ::))
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 19, 2018, 10:04:44 am
Hey, get off.... I just bought a magbook about the KWVR (book review coming) and there's a pic of it snowing at the end of last year!

Anyway, thread hijack. Sorry, Leon.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:09:52 pm
:greatpicturessign:

You have done a lot! I am full of questions but I'm not going to ask them. I will wait and see this develop instead.

One thing - I thought Wiltsbury station was supposed to be higher than the mainline. It seems to be at the same level.

Chris, what you see in the pictures is about all you're going to see for a while. Sorry! I'm going to start running the trains today. After I'm through testing, I'll disassemble the track (after marking the the footprint on the baseboard), and start working on the topography and a few buildings. The track that's in place provides me with all I need to form the cotours of the terrain. I've no idea how fast (or slow) the modeling of the topography will be, but I'm going to take my time and try to get it right - first time.

The mainline (avoiding line) is level with Wiltsbury station (ticket office) except for the incline and decline for the rail/road bridge. Remember, the base of the station roof is about the height of the rails that run through the station. After the decline of the avoiding line, it remains level through much of the tunnel, only beginning a gradual rise as the track exits the tunnel in the upper right. When I was standing on the platform in Westbury, I observed an express passenger train on the avoiding line, just slightly below my line of vision. At the point where I saw it, the train was on the bridge descent before leveling off about midway before passing under the Salisbury line. I'll need the entire bottom of the layout for that descent, so moving my Salisbury line to the left edge of the board was a good move.

More later today - with a picture of my locomotives on the track.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:25:50 pm
One thing you might just wish to consider at this stage.  From your excellent photographs I can see one pair of power feeds to the tracks (the blue/white wires).  For a layout this size, it could be a good idea to put in a few more power feeds where possible.  Another pair at the far end, for example.  This will reduce the power drop as the electricity makes its way through a lot of 'Unijoiners'.  My Sandrock layout (mostly AT&SF) is 13"x3" (plus a few sidings on a right angle) and it benefitted greatly from additional power feeds.  Before I fitted them, one could see a train slowing down the further it got from the power feeds and then speeding up as it came round the oval and got closer again!

John

John, thanks for a very useful, and welcome, contribution. I've been thinking about this issue for a while and wondering what I will need to do. I know nothing about wiring, so I will need a lot of help at the appropriate time. I'll get back to you in due course, as I'm not doing any of the wiring at this stage. The next step is to build my topography and a few buildings. I've no way to know how long that will take, but I expect it could be a few weeks. I've not done anything like this since the 70s, and then it was a simple 00 layout.

Incidentally, the Kato feeder is a 62 mm straight, so I have to decide on the placement of the feeders before I re-lay the track after building my terrain. The 62 mm feeder fits into the Kato metrics that I understand (there's much that I don't understand) - 62, 124, 248 mm straights. So I'll be able to fit a feeder into almost any position on the board.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:37:41 pm
You guys have said it for me :P

I know the problem! :) How do I fix it? As everyone will know, I presume, removing one piece of set track requires removing countless others. But, I'm convinced that I need to do it.  So, before the track is laid down permanently, I'll find a fix. What I do need to know is, how much space is recommended between the edge of the board and the rail?  I've read 2.5 inches and mine is approximately 1 inch top and bottom and two inches on the sides.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 04:45:11 pm
I too worry about you being able to reach the far tracks easily, though.
[/quote]

Bealman,

You're right, of course. It would be much better to be able to reach over rather than walk around. I'm a compositional freak, I guess - I want everything in front of me. Working something like a U or inside a well has no appeal for me. The only way to satisfy my need is to have a rectangle. I guess it's more like a painting; something I can relate to after a lifetime of collecting art.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 07:36:20 pm
You guys have said it for me :P

I know the problem! :) How do I fix it? As everyone will know, I presume, removing one piece of set track requires removing countless others. But, I'm convinced that I need to do it.  So, before the track is laid down permanently, I'll find a fix. What I do need to know is, how much space is recommended between the edge of the board and the rail?  I've read 2.5 inches and mine is approximately 1 inch top and bottom and two inches on the sides.

Leon

I stand corrected! And, I corrected myself. :) I was able to find 1.5 inches for the bottom and top of the layout by removing two adjacent pieces of track - and without affecting any other part of the track plan. While doing that, I went back to the tight curve to the lefthand bottom of the layout to make more headshunt room. This will be checked out when I move on to the third phase of track laying - maybe next Spring?

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 19, 2018, 07:53:11 pm
One thing you might just wish to consider at this stage.  From your excellent photographs I can see one pair of power feeds to the tracks (the blue/white wires).  For a layout this size, it could be a good idea to put in a few more power feeds where possible.  Another pair at the far end, for example.  This will reduce the power drop as the electricity makes its way through a lot of 'Unijoiners'.  My Sandrock layout (mostly AT&SF) is 13"x3" (plus a few sidings on a right angle) and it benefitted greatly from additional power feeds.  Before I fitted them, one could see a train slowing down the further it got from the power feeds and then speeding up as it came round the oval and got closer again!

John

John, thanks for a very useful, and welcome, contribution. I've been thinking about this issue for a while and wondering what I will need to do. I know nothing about wiring, so I will need a lot of help at the appropriate time. I'll get back to you in due course, as I'm not doing any of the wiring at this stage. The next step is to build my topography and a few buildings. I've no way to know how long that will take, but I expect it could be a few weeks. I've not done anything like this since the 70s, and then it was a simple 00 layout.

Incidentally, the Kato feeder is a 62 mm straight, so I have to decide on the placement of the feeders before I re-lay the track after building my terrain. The 62 mm feeder fits into the Kato metrics that I understand (there's much that I don't understand) - 62, 124, 248 mm straights. So I'll be able to fit a feeder into almost any position on the board.

Leon

Many thanks, Leon.

When you are ready, please just ask.

There is another way to supply power to Kato 'Unitrack' using the power unijoiners.  These are very good, but would require you to drill through the baseboard or carve the foam.  The 62mm power feed straights avoid all this trouble.  I understand that, in Japan, the track is often laid on the floor and then dismantled after use, so the 'Unitrack' system is designed to be used on a flat surface if desired.  A true table-top railway!

Best wishes for your super layout.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 08:01:55 pm
If you fancy a bit of soldering Leon, this -
http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/ (http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/)
shows you how to make your own power feeeds. Having said that, I have not used it as my soldering skills are not too clever and, to be honest, it is a lot easier clipping in a power feed track.

Another good tip from Fifer and there are loads more! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 08:17:56 pm
If you fancy a bit of soldering Leon, this -
[url]http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/[/url] ([url]http://www.fiferhobby.com/how-to-make-your-own-kato-uni-joiner-power-feeders/[/url])
shows you how to make your own power feeeds. Having said that, I have not used it as my soldering skills are not too clever and, to be honest, it is a lot easier clipping in a power feed track.

Another good tip from Fifer and there are loads more! :thumbsup:

David, I saw that link, but when it said solder I exited pretty quickly. The main reason I chose Kato was to avoid soldering! Why would I want to solder Kato unijoiners - or anything else?  :) Purists won't appreciate my approach, but for me it's the "course of least resistance". I like shared links, though. So, keep them coming. Some will contain information that I'm looking for - or should be looking for.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 19, 2018, 08:22:49 pm
There is another way to supply power to Kato 'Unitrack' using the power unijoiners.

John, I think I've added power unijoiners to my watch list on eBay. The power feeders will probably suffice, but it's always good to know there's another way. Thanks for the tip!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 19, 2018, 09:23:18 pm
when it said solder I exited pretty quickly. The main reason I chose Kato was to avoid soldering!

A man after my own heart!  :thumbsup: Plus, it does tend to defeat the purpose of using 'plug and play' Unitrack! Having just about completed all the track wiring on my layout, plus some other 'electrickery', I don't think I have used one bit of solder. All the wiring connections are done using the old fashioned 'choc blocks' - having tried some of the more updated contraptions, I have reverted to the 'choc blocks'.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 19, 2018, 10:20:17 pm
You guys have said it for me :P

I know the problem! :) How do I fix it? As everyone will know, I presume, removing one piece of set track requires removing countless others. But, I'm convinced that I need to do it.  So, before the track is laid down permanently, I'll find a fix. What I do need to know is, how much space is recommended between the edge of the board and the rail?  I've read 2.5 inches and mine is approximately 1 inch top and bottom and two inches on the sides.

Leon

I stand corrected! And, I corrected myself. :) I was able to find 1.5 inches for the bottom and top of the layout by removing two adjacent pieces of track - and without affecting any other part of the track plan. While doing that, I went back to the tight curve to the lefthand bottom of the layout to make more headshunt room. This will be checked out when I move on to the third phase of track laying - maybe next Spring?

Leon

Not strictly necessary to alter the track plan, Leon :no:
'Proper' perspex can be pretty expensive but there is a plastic equivalent in the UK called 'Liteglaze' which (with care as it can shatter quite easily) can be cut and drilled and fitted to the baseboard sides. This would prevent your prized stock plummeting to the floor and yet still be see-through. Maybe you have it or something like over there?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 12:59:08 am
Not strictly necessary to alter the track plan, Leon :no:
'Proper' perspex can be pretty expensive but there is a plastic equivalent in the UK called 'Liteglaze' which (with care as it can shatter quite easily) can be cut and drilled and fitted to the baseboard sides. This would prevent your prized stock plummeting to the floor and yet still be see-through. Maybe you have it or something like over there?

Mick, I've been thinking about something for the baseboard sides, but I still will be happier with a little more space around the periphery without sacrificing much. I certainly don't want to do much at this point, however. I'll make it better, hopefully when I lay the track permanently. I've already altered the plan in AnyRail and don't see that I've impacted anything significantly.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 01:19:32 am
The picture below was taken after my locomotive testing, today. I took a few pictures, but without a tripod the result was not good. You get a glimpse of what I'll be starting with. Six locos in all, with two out of group - a Caledonian and a Southern.

I'm REALLY pleased with the Graham Farish 372-030 Castle Class 6044 'Earl of Dunraven' GWR Lined Green - as I was when I ran it a few weeks ago. It's smooth at all speeds, and runs at a snails pace on the slow end. Virtually noiseless. I can't be as complimentary about the others, though. One or two had some strong points, but all had some glaring weaknesses. Two of them were sold as new, but I'm convinced they had been on the shelf for years. I probably need to pause and take a lesson on lubrication, but that can wait for a while as they're going back into their boxes for a few weeks.

I had my first exposure to something I've read about on the forum. It seems that every locomotive deals with ponts somewhat differently. Even the Earl had his problem. He ran impecably until I reversed over one of the double points. Every time I tried it derailed. The bogie seemed to be the first wheels to derail. There's a long straight before the point, so there must be something in the point snagging the boggie wheels. Maybe something needs to be filed down, but that's something else I'll need to learn about before proceeding. Some of the goods wagons also derailed at the same point, but the coaches passed through without even a wobble.

By the way, the derailment was at the top center of the layout, requiring me to walk around to the back for re-railing. :) Dont say "I told you so"!

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-200718011134.jpeg)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 20, 2018, 09:00:06 am
Hello Leon

Congratulations on getting trains running on your super layout.

Points can be tricky things, both on model and full-size railways.  The 'double points' at top rear centre that you mention looks like a Kato Scissors Crossover.  Kato 'Unitrack' is a brilliant system and has given me no difficulty whatsoever with Kato models.  I have found, through experience, that other makes can have niggles.  Especially with steam locomotives.  I assume that this situation arises because the other manufacturers do not work to Kato's standards and tolerences.

The Kato #4 turnouts have well-known difficulties (NPN of this Forum has an excellent thread detailing his careful testing of these).  I have found occasional difficulties with the #6 as well, with certain steam locomotives in particular circumstances, and, after a bit of trial and error, made a modification that has helped greatly.  In my simplistic view, the Scissors Crossover is four #6 turnouts in one impressive unit.

When your lovely 'Castle' derailed, was she running through the points in a straight line or was she taking the curved route (diverging road in UK jargon)?

With best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 20, 2018, 10:00:08 am

The Kato #4 turnouts have well-known difficulties (NPN of this Forum has an excellent thread detailing his careful testing of these).  I have found occasional difficulties with the #6 as well, with certain steam locomotives in particular circumstances, and, after a bit of trial and error, made a modification that has helped greatly.


@Train Waiting (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=6222)
Thanks for the acknowledgment, John. Maybe in a separate topic could you explain your modification to #6 points as it will maybe help others and I have a thirst for knowledge which helps fellow members.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 20, 2018, 03:18:51 pm
Many thanks, Mick.  The modification is covered in amongst my lengthy ramblings in 'A Table-Top Railway in British 'N' Gauge' thread.  Page 32.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg498698#msg498698 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38281.msg498698#msg498698)

Please let me know if you would like the main points (sorry, that's awful)  :-[ extracted and posted somewhere else or if this reference is sufficient.  By the way, after a bit of time and a lot of running, the modification appears to be working.

Toodle-oo.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 03:31:31 pm
The Kato #4 turnouts have well-known difficulties (NPN of this Forum has an excellent thread detailing his careful testing of these).  I have found occasional difficulties with the #6 as well, with certain steam locomotives in particular circumstances, and, after a bit of trial and error, made a modification that has helped greatly.  In my simplistic view, the Scissors Crossover is four #6 turnouts in one impressive unit.

When your lovely 'Castle' derailed, was she running through the points in a straight line or was she taking the curved route (diverging road in UK jargon)?
John, I was reversing through the points after 372 mm of straight track. Similarly, the wagons derailed at the same bit in reverse. Would that suggest something about the wheels? I've not learned the parts of points, yet, but when I run my finger over the point in the direction the train was running, I feel a sharp edge.

I've had that discussion about the #4 points, but I can't model my sidings on the lower side of the layout without using them. I've not purchases any, yet, hoping to keep the number to a minimum. I mentioned before that I've bought track/points from many sources and there are definitely differences in "new" stock. Some (like a couple of my locos) have been in their packaging for years, I think. There is definitely a good case for buying the latest and greatest, if you can!

My greatest concern about my track is the 124 mm right turnout on the right side. I don't have electricity for the inner tracks, yet, but tried moving my Earl by hand and it didn't look good making the turn. Fortunately, it's a mainliner, so won't be stopping at the station. I think only locos without bogies will enter the station. I tried my autocoach through that point and it seemed to have no problem. It will be pulled/pushed by the 14xx.

While I have the floor, let me say that I bought some additional real estate to move my track away from the edge of the layout. Maybe not far enough, but it is an improvement. These last couple of days of loco/track trials have emphasized an issue I'd completely ignorned, however. Where am I going to place my controllers? I'll have three and I've only space for one on the board (lower right corner). I've seen what some others have done - essentially, extensions to the board. I'll need to study the alternatives.

Leon

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 05:51:19 pm
When you are ready, please just ask.

There is another way to supply power to Kato 'Unitrack' using the power unijoiners.  These are very good, but would require you to drill through the baseboard or carve the foam.  The 62mm power feed straights avoid all this trouble.


John, I'm ready sooner than I expected! Today, I put power to the inner oval (three double crossovers). I knew that there would be special considerations because of the insulators in the crossover points, but with the points set for through running on the inner oval I expected to have power. I didn't!

In your mention of the power unijoiners you said that the 62 mm power feed straights would avoid the trouble of drilling through the baseboard. I'm not sure what you had in mind, as I've always intended to drill and put the feeder wires under the baseboard. What am I missing? Did you have in mind that they could be left on top of the board and concealed with ballast and ground cover?

No rush to respond, for I'm awaiting the delivery of more track before I'll be making changes to the track plan, but I'm curious. I've decided to make all the corrections necessary so that I can mark the board before lifting the track to build the topography. I'll not be dropping the wiring until all the topography is completed, for most of the points will be on board added for elevation.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 20, 2018, 06:31:33 pm
Hello Leon


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6222-200718182250.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=67600)

Sorry, I have taken shocking liberties with one of your splendid photographs.

Is the 'inner oval' the one I have marked with a white arrow?

If it is the power feed (orange arrow) is not able to supply power because the turnout (very green dot) is set against the route the power feed is on.

One of the good things about Kato 'Unitrack' is that allows for wiring on the surface of the baseboard if that appeals.  No drilling of holes and no wiring below the baseboard!  The wires can be disguised by scenic features.

But if you are intending to drill holes for the wires for power and turnout operation, the 'power unijoiners' become a great choice as you can feed power any place you want that has a track joint.  This reduces the number of fiddly little track pieces that one uses and, therefore, reduces the number of joints.

It's good to have a choice...

Hope this helps.

Best wishes.

John
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 20, 2018, 06:50:01 pm
Is the 'inner oval' the one I have marked with a white arrow?

If it is the power feed (orange arrow) is not able to supply power because the turnout (very green dot) is set against the route the power feed is on.

One of the good things about Kato 'Unitrack' is that allows for wiring on the surface of the baseboard if that appeals.  No drilling of holes and no wiring below the baseboard!  The wires can be disguised by scenic features.

But if you are intending to drill holes for the wires for power and turnout operation, the 'power unijoiners' become a great choice as you can feed power any place you want that has a track joint.  This reduces the number of fiddly little track pieces that one uses and, therefore, reduces the number of joints.

John, you did well! The inner oval is as you assumed, but I changed the power feed. The feeder was just before the right hand turn. The points were all set for the train to travel that inner oval - through the two double crossovers. The insulators in the double crossover at the top didn't affect running on the outer oval, so I don't understand why there was no power on the inner oval, after I placed the feeder before the right hand point.

Thanks for the input re: drilling vs disguising wires. I'll be looking closely at that alternative.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 01:29:59 am
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings? Must there be a feeder at the end of each spur? I'll be grateful if someone will enlighten me - and while you're at it, direct me to a good source for basic layout electrical wiring.  Thanks!

I've been running my Prairie Tank, today. It sounds more like a model airplane than a locomotive! It's a Graham Farish 371-981. Please tell me it's OLD. And, does anyone have an opinion as to the relationship of the noise to a need for lubrication!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: keerout on July 21, 2018, 02:15:45 am
Hi Leon,
Try this: http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/ (http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/)
Lots of information, from very simple to Very Complicated, so go slowly....
he also got a splendit book out, works even better (for me) than the web site
Happy modelling!
Gerard
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 21, 2018, 06:09:34 am
Can certainly endorse the book recommendation by @keerout (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=596).

From another post you asked about installing the station/platform. May I suggest you build your station kit soon? Somehow that being in place adds to the feeling of 'getting somewhere' with the build! It also means you can double check that you have the correct platform width as you run a train through.

Metcalfe kits are pretty good and can be lit if you remember to carefully paint the insides with a dark colour before building. That stops any light bleed. White corners showing at the folds can be hidden by either painting or using a sharp crayon of the correct colour. I use either a tiny brush or watercolour pencil and work very slowly!

HTH.  :)

Look forward to seeing your layout.

Dave G

 
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: njee20 on July 21, 2018, 06:29:54 am
Re: feeds, yes you need one in each loop. You can add them to sidings if you want locos to be able to move when the points are set against them. If youíre content with only moving stock when the points are set into the siding you neednít do anything.

The general wisdom with feeds (or Ďdroppersí) is to add as many as possible, particularly on bigger layouts. A lot of people advocate one on each piece of track. I think thatís a bit excessive, but Iíd have more than 2. If Unitrack requires the use of a special feeder piece then thatís harder to implement obviously.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Innovationgame on July 21, 2018, 06:51:52 am
I've been running my Prairie Tank, today. It sounds more like a model airplane than a locomotive! It's a Graham Farish 371-981. Please tell me it's OLD. And, does anyone have an opinion as to the relationship of the noise to a need for lubrication!

Leon
If your're running DC, it's almost certainly gear noise.  A (tiny) drop of Dapol oil on the gears, followed by some running in might help.  If you're running DCC the same applies but, before that, consider the decoder.  Some decoders cause quite a loud noise during slow running because of rapid switching.  Essentially a DCC decoders achieves speed reductions by slicing up the power to the motor.  Some decoders are noisier than others.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on July 21, 2018, 08:12:25 am
Hi Leon,

Regarding the sidings, njee20 is right in that the electricity will flow into the siding when switched that way and cut off when switched back to the loop.

Can't remember your track plan but if you had another siding coming off the first siding then you could have another feed just before that point so a loco could reverse out of one and go back down the other without obstructing the loop line.

On mine, which is Kato, at the end of the single siding there is a track feed and a little bit more track which has the track joiners replaced with insulated joiners so that the loco can come in with a train, stop and uncouple.

You then stop the electricity going to that end section with some sort of toggle switch. I haven't got round to that yet so I just pull the wire out of the 3-way power feed near the controller and then you bring another loco in, using the loop power, to take the train out again. Once it's gone, reconnect (or turn toggle switch) and the other loco can move out and wait in the siding for the mainline to clear.

Hope that's not too simple, correct in other's minds (I'm newish too) and makes sense  :worried:

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 21, 2018, 09:01:10 am
Hi Leon,
To create dead sections in sidings/loops, especially in a loco shed where you'll want to move one loco without others on the same track moving, I use latchable (not momentary) on/off push button switches which you can locate on a control panel or other handy place. Similar to these but if you have an electrical wholesaler you may find them cheaper..........

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Train Waiting on July 21, 2018, 09:25:05 am
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings?


Hello Leon

I'm glad you have solved the problem.  I was looking at your track plan to see possible causes but it's great that you have solved it yourself.

The turnouts for Kato 'Unitrack' are power-routing.* That means you do not need a separate feed for each siding.  Set the turnout for the siding and it becomes live.  Set it for the main line and the siding becomes dead.  All very easy.

The reason for more than one feed on a big layout like yours is what is often called 'voltage drop'.  Model railway track, especially with a lot of joins, has a greater resistance than copper wire.  When the train gets further away from the feed, it runs slower.  The solution to this is several track feeds.  Modellers using DCC tend to use lots of feeds for a slightly different reason.  You are on DC so you can have fairly simple wiring.

There can be times when you want a power feed that is only live some of the time.  Lets call these 'switched feeds'.  Our good friend Chris @weave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=735) helpfully mentions this.  There are ways to achieve this.  The simplest is a little on/off switch on one of the wires to the power feed (we can discuss which one later).  My Sandrock layout needed two switched feeds which worked in conjunction with the setting of two turnouts.  My expensive solution to give automatic switching was a couple of spare Kato #4 turnouts wired to operate in conjunction with the two relevant turnouts on the layout.  The spare #4 turnouts were wired to act as a simple on/off switch in my case, but could  be wired to direct power to one or other of the circuits if desired.

Hope this helps.

John

* On some Kato turnouts there is a little switch on the underside that switches on or off the power-routing feature.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:02:05 pm

Dave, thanks for the good advice and endorsement of the book previously recommended. I was leaning toward pausing to build the station, and now I'm certain I'll do that before going forward. I do have some templates to prepare before I lift the temporary track, but I'll build the station and at least one platform before proceeding with the topography. I've a Metcalfe station kit, but my platform kit is Peco. I'll maybe use the Peco kit at Biss River and buy a couple Metcalfe kits for Wiltsbury. I hadn't thought about lighting the station, but will consider painting the inside. When I bought my first Metcalfe kit in Edinburgh, the shop attendant pointed out the need to color the edges so I've already bought watercolor pencils.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:04:37 pm
Re: feeds, yes you need one in each loop. You can add them to sidings if you want locos to be able to move when the points are set against them. If youíre content with only moving stock when the points are set into the siding you neednít do anything.

The general wisdom with feeds (or Ďdroppersí) is to add as many as possible, particularly on bigger layouts. A lot of people advocate one on each piece of track. I think thatís a bit excessive, but Iíd have more than 2. If Unitrack requires the use of a special feeder piece then thatís harder to implement obviously.

Njee, thanks so much for the help!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:06:44 pm
Hi Leon,

Regarding the sidings, njee20 is right in that the electricity will flow into the siding when switched that way and cut off when switched back to the loop.

Can't remember your track plan but if you had another siding coming off the first siding then you could have another feed just before that point so a loco could reverse out of one and go back down the other without obstructing the loop line.

On mine, which is Kato, at the end of the single siding there is a track feed and a little bit more track which has the track joiners replaced with insulated joiners so that the loco can come in with a train, stop and uncouple.

You then stop the electricity going to that end section with some sort of toggle switch. I haven't got round to that yet so I just pull the wire out of the 3-way power feed near the controller and then you bring another loco in, using the loop power, to take the train out again. Once it's gone, reconnect (or turn toggle switch) and the other loco can move out and wait in the siding for the mainline to clear.

Hope that's not too simple, correct in other's minds (I'm newish too) and makes sense  :worried:

Cheers weave  :beers:

I don't understand all of the advice, but it's greatly appreciated and I'll be returning to read it again as I go forwarad. Knowledge is cumulative, so I'll understand it as I learn more.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 21, 2018, 07:18:19 pm
Leon.
Apologies but I stay out of posting re electrics.
Others are MUCH more knowledgeable on that black art than me.
I go for the blindingly simple and it works so hope you manage to make it happen for you.
Good luck with the build.
Martin
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:19:56 pm
If your're running DC, it's almost certainly gear noise.  A (tiny) drop of Dapol oil on the gears, followed by some running in might help.  If you're running DCC the same applies but, before that, consider the decoder.  Some decoders cause quite a loud noise during slow running because of rapid switching.  Essentially a DCC decoders achieves speed reductions by slicing up the power to the motor.  Some decoders are noisier than others.

Laurence, I'm putting the locomotives away for another day, but will try lubricating the Prairie when I bring it out the next time. Thanks for reinforcing an assumption. It's logical that the gears will dry out when a loco isn't run, and this one probably hasn't run in years. It looks great, and performs well, but sounds like a plane taking off when accelerating. Reading your thread, and many others, it's obvious that model railway manufacturers have achieved more with their exterior design and detail than with the mechanics. There could also be an issue with their quality control. My Prairie is only one of five that have some kind of mechanical problem. The sixth, the Earl of Dunraven is the only one that has run to my expectations. Therefore, I may be finished with buying from the secondary market. I'd rather pay Hatton's an extra 35-40% with the knowledge that I'll be getting value and/or the option to return the purchase. And, I'll not be buying many more.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 21, 2018, 07:23:03 pm
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! So,

Loosely translated, that means you are just like the rest of us!  ;D

my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points.

The Kato crossover does need a feed on either side of the crossing, on each track. They do not need to be right next to the crossover, but they do need to be between the crossover and the next point on the line.

Bob Fifer shows exactly what I mean on one of his videos.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:23:41 pm
To create dead sections in sidings/loops, especially in a loco shed where you'll want to move one loco without others on the same track moving, I use latchable (not momentary) on/off push button switches which you can locate on a control panel or other handy place. Similar to these but if you have an electrical wholesaler you may find them cheaper..........
https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/IM-7mm-Black-Locking-Latching-OFF-ON-Push-Button-Car-Boat-Switch-10pcs-Abundan-/222748105172)

This is advice that I'll definitely use.Thanks!! Any advice for adding a control panel? As I stated, previously, I'd not given it any thought until I laid my outer rail and realized how little room I have in the corner.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:35:21 pm
Sometimes I'm slow and other times I'm stupid! Today I was both!!! My inner oval wasn't getting electricity because the second double crossover, in the station, was switched. These points have insulators so when switched the current is broken. So, my presumption is that I must have an electrical feed on either side of the crossover points. My knowledge of electricity is extremely limited, but if the logic I'm applying now is correct how can locos run into sidings?

Hello Leon

I'm glad you have solved the problem.

John, I've been really gratified by the response from other Forum members to this issue. Alas, I'm still stupid. I haven't solved the problem! I can't get electricity to the inner oval (loop?). I'll check under the point (it's the only one of that kind I have) to see if there is a switch. I should have done it before responding to your message, but I'm only able to do one thing at a time - and right now is is my reading/writing time! :)

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 07:37:26 pm
The Kato crossover does need a feed on either side of the crossing, on each track. They do not need to be right next to the crossover, but they do need to be between the crossover and the next point on the line.
Bob Fifer shows exactly what I mean on one of his videos.  :thumbsup:

I'll definitely check out the Fifer video. Thanks!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 08:17:07 pm

The turnouts for Kato 'Unitrack' are power-routing.* * On some Kato turnouts there is a little switch on the underside that switches on or off the power-routing feature.

John, the turnout in question DOES have the switch(s). There are two labled Curved Side and Straight Side. Each has a screw in one of two holes - the one labled Power Routing. The non-power routing hole is empty. Does the screw turn on the power or turn off the power? Since I'm not getting power to the track following the point, it appears to me that the screw needs to be moved to the empty hole labeled "Non-power Routing". I don't want to do that, though, until I've had your opinion of my presumption. That seems to be the only thing I can change, however.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 21, 2018, 08:22:31 pm
In that case Leon, they are number 4 points. There is a thread on the forum regarding changing the screw, BUT, I believe the screw is in the wrong hole relative to the instructions. If you do not come across the thread, I will find it for you a bit later tonight.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 21, 2018, 08:32:55 pm
Another thought - if you put  a power connecting piece on the through route and the diverging route after the actual point, it does not matter which way the point is thrown, both routes will have power.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 09:21:43 pm
In that case Leon, they are number 4 points. There is a thread on the forum regarding changing the screw, BUT, I believe the screw is in the wrong hole relative to the instructions. If you do not come across the thread, I will find it for you a bit later tonight.

David,

It was easier to change the screws than to search for the thread! :) I did that, and it appears all is well. Thanks to John for the original tip, and your remarks which gave me the confidence to go ahead and change the screws. I will need to add power feeds to each side of the double crossovers, however. The loco stopped dead in the middle of the first crossover.

Leon

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 21, 2018, 09:44:44 pm
Any advice for adding a control panel?


Not sure I'm the right person to ask as I am using stud and probe operation of Seep point motors and knocked up a cheap and cheerful panel as here.............

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527)

I'm guessing here but maybe you just need an 'L' shape where the base of the 'L' supports your controller(s) and the vertical of the 'L' could have your Kato point switches attached to it. The 'L' shape could be attached to the side of your baseboard with what are referred to in the UK as 'Glass Plate - Slotted'...........

https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd (https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd)

Maybe someone using Kato track has something better..................
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 21, 2018, 09:52:18 pm
Any advice for adding a control panel?


Not sure I'm the right person to ask as I am using stud and probe operation of Seep point motors and knocked up a cheap and cheerful panel as here.............

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=22084.msg507527#msg507527[/url])

I'm guessing here but maybe you just need an 'L' shape where the base of the 'L' supports your controller(s) and the vertical of the 'L' could have your Kato point switches attached to it. The 'L' shape could be attached to the side of your baseboard with what are referred to in the UK as 'Glass Plate - Slotted'...........

[url]https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd[/url] ([url]https://www.diy.com/departments/b-q-brass-effect-carbon-steel-mirror-flush-mount-l-30mm-pack-of-2/198110_BQ.prd[/url])

Maybe someone using Kato track has something better..................


I think your suggestion is both simple and effective. If placed on the lower right side of my frame, I could access it from my computer chair. Nothing like making things convenient. Thanks, Mick!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 03:34:35 am
A few more questions before calling it a night. How critical is input voltage from the transformer? My Kato power pack (22-014) came with a Kato transformer that is 120V
AC input and 15 V AC output. I've bought another Kato power pack (different model - 22018 Power Pack Standard SX AC) and it did not come with the  transformer. It's not clear to me what I need, and I can't find an American source selling the Kato transformer. The output of the Kato transformer offered by Japanese sellers is 12V so I'm wondering why the difference.

Does anyone have experience with Scalescenes card kits?

After I receive the track that's on order, I'll make a few ajustments in the layout before lifting the track for topographical work (and building my station). I'm finished with testing the track plan and except for the tight turn into the station from the right down line, I'm satisfied. That tight turn can't be remediated without major alterations that would change the layout beyoond recognition. I'm grateful to all who have helped me through this first stage and I'll post a new image of the layout plan by the middle of next week. I'm really looking forward to building the terrain and my mind is focused on proceeding with that task. I've been looking at Woodland Scenics videos and will probably borrow some of their methods and use some of their products. Woodland Scenics is American, and thus probably the least expensive for me, however, they may not be the best so I'd be pleased to have some comments from users of other sources.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 22, 2018, 04:14:47 am
I started reading your post Leon and thought "Whoa, that's not right", then I remembered you were in the USA  :doh:. If I remember correctly, 120v is the American supply, whereas here in Ireland and the UK it is 240v.  By pure coincidence, I had cause to check the output from a spare Kato power pack yesterday and the maximum output is just about 15v DC. I did that because my spare Bachmann power pack was throwing out 20v DC, which I am sure can not be correct - hopefully somebody on the forum will answer another post I have regarding this.  I have never used a Scalescenes kit so can not help you there - I am a big fan of the Metcalfe kits. :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 22, 2018, 04:30:47 am
Woodland Scenics products are excellent, and the preferred choice for many modellers, myself included. They are on the pricey side however (at least where I live).
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 22, 2018, 07:41:59 am
I have used a lot of WS ground cover materials and found them good. Nice and fine and appear to be UV resistant although I do have the layout in permanent shade.

To save some cash you don't need to use their adhesive for the scatter as a decent quality PVA from a hardware store works just as well. Lots of scenic hints and tips here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=11.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=11.0)

Not tried their water products but there's plenty of info and 'how to' on YouTube.

I've recently been given a static grass gizmo and some materials which will be a first for me. The applicator, various makes are available, are quite expensive here although clever folk have built their own.

Hope you get your electrical questions answered - I'm no help there!

Looking forward to your next update.

Dave G
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 22, 2018, 07:54:37 am
Webbo used WS realistic water on his layout and having seen it in person, I can say it looks great.

And as Dave says, PVA works fine. No need for the WS stuff.  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 22, 2018, 09:42:47 am
I found WS Scenic Cement to be very disappointing and PVA glue to be much better. Likewise, should you ever consider it, I don't like WS Track Cleaner as it seems to leave a residue. Use IPA.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Bealman on July 22, 2018, 09:49:02 am
Yeah, I always think that they added that glue, track cleaner, etc. to the range as an afterthought as it would make money.

However the ground foam, foliage and general scenic products are excellent.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 08:00:13 pm
First things first, and today that was the Open! Now, to plan my next move, having put away the locomotives for another day.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 22, 2018, 08:25:52 pm
I too find PVA suitable for most things and it works well with Woodland Scenic items.
I have graduated to using static grass over the lastfew months and would thoroughly recommend it.
And yes, IPA for track cleaning.
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 08:48:09 pm
I too find PVA suitable for most things and it works well with Woodland Scenic items.
I have graduated to using static grass over the lastfew months and would thoroughly recommend it.
And yes, IPA for track cleaning.


Duh! What is IPA?

I've been searching for a girder road bridge to span the tracks on the right side of my layout, but nobody seems to be making one. The closest I can find is a double track bridge that I could use, I suppose - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tomix-3067-Double-Track-Girder-Bridge-II-w-2-Concrete-Piers-Blue-N-scale/222896355532?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180105095853%26meid%3Ddc6703e3ae3b406e94d7d7060daa79fb%26pid%3D100903%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D222896355532%26itm%3D222896355532&_trksid=p2509164.c100903.m5276. (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Tomix-3067-Double-Track-Girder-Bridge-II-w-2-Concrete-Piers-Blue-N-scale/222896355532?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180105095853%26meid%3Ddc6703e3ae3b406e94d7d7060daa79fb%26pid%3D100903%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D20%26sd%3D222896355532%26itm%3D222896355532&_trksid=p2509164.c100903.m5276.) Any comments?

This is the actual bridge -

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-220718205340.jpeg)

The railroad bridge at the bottom right of my layout currently has a Kato two track girder bridge that looks more like the one in the above picture, and the Tomix bridge looks more like the real bridge across station road -

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/67/6724-220718205624.jpeg)

I guess I could change them around.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 22, 2018, 08:53:33 pm
IPA is Isopropyl Alcohol (if Iíve spelled it correctly).
As for the bridge, your link isnít working but do you mean the bridge that spans the track to the north of Westbury station?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: daveg on July 22, 2018, 08:55:32 pm
IPA = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol  :)

Getting a page error on the first link so can't offer any thoughts on what you may be wanting.

Dave G

Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 09:01:31 pm
Just altered my picture links, and yes, the first bridge mentioned is the one north of the station. My photo of the bridge is from one of the platforms in the station.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 22, 2018, 09:03:54 pm
Do you think Scottish Whiskey would work as well as IPA? :) I already have that in the house, and I don't drink it anymore, *sigh*

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: dannyboy on July 22, 2018, 09:06:15 pm
I already have that in the house, and I don't drink it anymore, *sigh*


A pity you live on the other side of the pond.  :(. What I mean is, I could have come along to look at your layout - honest! :)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: port perran on July 22, 2018, 09:16:09 pm
Hi Leon.
Peco platform edging would be perfect for the overbridge.
I use it to make similar over bridges. Simply lay a strip of card between two sections of the edging and paint the whole thing appropriately.
I can send you some pictures if you wish.
https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE (https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE)
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 22, 2018, 09:34:41 pm
Do you think Scottish Whiskey would work as well as IPA?

Leon

Just a small whiskey lesson. The Irish spell it with an 'e' and the Scots without ;)
Can you not sell it and use the proceeds for the layout?
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: weave on July 22, 2018, 10:09:21 pm
Hi Leon,

Would Kato 20-452 be any good?....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO)

Available in different colours and cover the track with tarmac  :D (plasticard or similar)

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 01:10:47 am
Hi Leon,

Would Kato 20-452 be any good?....

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kato-20-452-Single-Girder-Bridge/dp/B0003K1LLO)

Available in different colours and cover the track with tarmac  :D (plasticard or similar)

Cheers weave  :beers:

Weave, that's one of the bridges I was referring to in my post; the one that currently is taking the avoiding line over the Station Road past the Railway Inn. Except, mine is two tracks. I can move it to the crossing of the station lines, however, and use something else for the avoiding line crossing. I believe the track is easily removable by removing one or more screws.

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 01:15:15 am
Do you think Scottish Whiskey would work as well as IPA?

Leon
Just a small whiskey lesson. The Irish spell it with an 'e' and the Scots without ;)
Can you not sell it and use the proceeds for the layout?
I'm not a very good speller, but used to be a good drinker! I've a bottle of eight year old (or is it 12?) malt that's been in my cupboard for about 30 years. It was a special gift that we kept for a special day. Too bad it doesn't age in the bottle!

Leon
Title: Re: Westbury Junction 1938-42 (Perceived)
Post by: Leon on July 23, 2018, 01:21:13 am
Hi Leon.
Peco platform edging would be perfect for the overbridge.
I use it to make similar over bridges. Simply lay a strip of card between two sections of the edging and paint the whole thing appropriately.
I can send you some pictures if you wish.
https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE (https://www.track-shack.com/acatalog/Peco-Lineside-NB-27-N-Scale-Platform-Edging-Kit-Concrete-type-Peco-Lineside-NB-27.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw1tDaBRAMEiwA0rYbSFdlY2GbS8Q7hkPwCeqVQKCzdFjPEVt3SrCuLifiB3m6vU_abxZlHBoCjt8QAvD_BwE)

I bought one of those kits when I was in Edinburgh in May. I'm a bit intimadated (well, a lot, actually) by model building, so I'm looking for things that are almost finished and are similar to the real thing. The Kato bridge loooks near enough that I can use it if I'm able to removing the track and the center divider.

I'd love to have the pictures! I can usually copy something - if it's pretty simple.

Leon