N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: njee20 on November 25, 2017, 04:15:38 pm

Title: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on November 25, 2017, 04:15:38 pm
Details are scant at the mo, but Daveís announced an APT at Warley, to be crowdfunded.

Iím tempted I must say, depending on pricing etc, despite being well out of my era.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Tank on November 25, 2017, 04:22:05 pm
Great, I've always wanted to get one to repaint to NSE livery (fictitious of course). :claphappy:
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: daveg on November 25, 2017, 04:29:38 pm
Crowdfunding does seem to be catching on.

Good to hear that DJM is looking ahead and planning more but it'd be just brilliant to learn when we may see some of the long-awaited kit. For example, his Class 23 Baby Deltic. 

Dave G
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 25, 2017, 05:05:08 pm
Heís announcing models like theyíre going out of fashion, whilst still not really delivering anything. Worries me still.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Newportnobby on November 25, 2017, 05:13:54 pm
Crowdfunding does not impact Dave's cash flow like the DJ Models ones do. He has said all along that one item will fund the next as regards his own output.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 25, 2017, 05:17:21 pm
This is the Durham Trains of Stanley page:-

http://durhamtrainsofstanley.co.uk/my_store/index.php?main_page=products_new&zenid=41bc168f180c3f76e8157db1bad001e2 (http://durhamtrainsofstanley.co.uk/my_store/index.php?main_page=products_new&zenid=41bc168f180c3f76e8157db1bad001e2)
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 25, 2017, 05:23:10 pm
Great, I've always wanted to get one to repaint to NSE livery (fictitious of course). :claphappy:

When I worked at Paddington in the late 1970s someone shared the APT-P livery proposal with us  I remember someone suggesting the grey should be replaced with mid-blue. I drew one up on a bit of white cardboard. Would have made a good NSE variant.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on November 25, 2017, 05:40:10 pm
I was hoping someone would produce one of these eventually - a very stylish train. I do wish Dave success with this venture.

Heís announcing models like theyíre going out of fashion, whilst still not really delivering anything. Worries me still.

Crowdfunding does not impact Dave's cash flow like the DJ Models ones do. He has said all along that one item will fund the next as regards his own output.

However, Dave has announced on RMWeb that DJM will be designer, manufacturer (presumably manufacturer liaison with the factory, (he won't be building them himself) and supplier. Irrespective of the funding angle, there is a risk that there are lots and lots of announcements (crowd-funded or otherwise) but only one DJM. Deferred risk or not, the more announcements made against the ever growing backlog, the thinner he will be spreading his time and resources.

Will it come to fruition? I do hope so; but for the moment, this is something else to add to the list of 'promised'.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 25, 2017, 05:53:20 pm
Heís also announced that his second batch of Mermaids are delayed indefinitely because he canít get a slot at the factory, this must be the 6th or 7th model announced versus part of one delivered. Thatís literally years of backlog even if he manages to get them all to that stage.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2017, 05:57:39 pm
Went back to the DJM stand today to see what had been announced and to be honest was a tad underwhelmed. Good luck to all involved but not a model for me.

I didn't stop to look at the pricing while I was at Warley but just saw the big poster on Facebook,  it does look to offer a pretty high spec, but £549.95 for a 5 car set up to £899.95 for the 14 car one may be a bit on the steep side for some.

Good luck as I say, but I'll just sit tight and wait for the mainstream DJM Claytons!

Roy
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 25, 2017, 06:06:38 pm
Went back to the DJM stand today to see what had been announced and to be honest was a tad underwhelmed. Good luck to all involved but not a model for me.

I didn't stop to look at the pricing while I was at Warley but just saw the big poster on Facebook,  it does look to offer a pretty high spec, but £549.95 for a 5 car set up to £899.95 for the 14 car one may be a bit on the steep side for some.

Good luck as I say, but I'll just sit tight and wait for the mainstream DJM Claytons!

Roy

Hi

Price seems reasonable but like others I am concerned regarding the amount of announced products against what's actually been delivered.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 25, 2017, 06:15:44 pm
£800 for a 10 car set. Iím out, far too expensive for me!
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: bluedepot on November 25, 2017, 06:32:37 pm
why is it so expensive?   a 5 car super voyager or hst isn't that much is it?  i mean i know this is limited to 1000 or whatever and crowd funded but still?   does it actually tilt or something?


tim





Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2017, 06:34:49 pm
Yes, the plan is that it will...
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: carderrail on November 25, 2017, 06:41:55 pm
I am with you on this the Revolution 11-car Class 390 is nowhere near this (or has my credit card recovered), although the Farish Blue Pullman was pushing £300+ at 2013/4 prices (£400 in the pack) for a 5 Car Set so £900 isn't actually unrealistic with increasing costs and a new tooling (scarry though).

I await more details before deciding.

Tony

why is it so expensive?   a 5 car super voyager or hst isn't that much is it?  i mean i know this is limited to 1000 or whatever and crowd funded but still?   does it actually tilt or something?


tim
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: bluedepot on November 25, 2017, 06:46:30 pm
does the revolution pendolino tilt?

Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: class37025 on November 25, 2017, 06:55:26 pm
certainly not interested myself, such inflated prices are not, in my opinion, doing anything to promote the hobby.

I was lucky to get a couple of the Blue Pullmans, not I hasten to add at full price, and I was able to use them to give me a full length unit, with two working power cars, plus a spare power car.
Chris, of Old Warren fame, did me a lovely conversion of one of the other power cars to one awaiting restoration, and the fourth powered power car is retained as a spare, with excess carriages sold for a reasonable price.
so, when one, or both, power cars die, I have two spare powered chassis to repair them.

nothing like the cost of this offering, and SWMBO even liked the idea of the one awaiting repair.

I am afraid I don't see many of these selling, and those that do, will they run on a layout or be put away to appreciate value for resale ?
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Intercity on November 25, 2017, 07:55:46 pm
Would really like to see this succeed, however I have my doubts, although the Pendolino has proven a successful venture by revolution, they have stated the 321 isnít doing so well, keep in mind the 321 in real life went full production and ended up used on many commuter lines for thousands of commuters, they saw service all over the country (under wires of course), the APT although iconic and well known, to me just doesnít have the appeal of a regular train and I fear that limitation may impact the end sales.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 25, 2017, 08:01:39 pm
Its an Iconic train and I think it will succeed.

Not every train has the same appeal.  The yellow nosed Blue Pullman was a flop as was the blue Brighton Bell, where as the all Blue Pullman and the cream and umber Bell sell for silly money.

The Class 321 is just an ugly prototype.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Tank on November 25, 2017, 08:03:51 pm
When I worked at Paddington in the late 1970s someone shared the APT-P livery proposal with us  I remember someone suggesting the grey should be replaced with mid-blue. I drew one up on a bit of white cardboard. Would have made a good NSE variant.


Really interesting! I've wanted to make one in the NSE livery ever since I saw the following artists impression of the APT P at East Croydon station.


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/58/2-251117200111.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=58557)

The more I read about this model the more I want it.  However, that price...   :(

The Class 321 is just an ugly prototype.


In your opinion.  ;)  I like it!  :)
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Roy L S on November 25, 2017, 08:11:43 pm
does the revolution pendolino tilt?



No it doesn't, if I recall correctly it was considered but as the degree of tilt is comparatively small and tilt is only used on certain parts of the WCML it was decided not to, a move supported by the majority of subscribers.

Roy
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: pape_timmo on November 25, 2017, 09:08:19 pm
Ouch, Iíd love one but at that price Iíd struggle at the moment to get those funds together. Mmm, weíll see...

Cheers, Timmo
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Maurits71 on November 25, 2017, 09:57:39 pm
close to a £ 1000,- is he developing an 0 gauge version.

sorry for being negative but his history is too close in my mind so for sure I amnit interested at all.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: robert shrives on November 25, 2017, 09:59:04 pm
Well there we have it an ATP-P , well lads on here have almost sorted a 3D print one and I can see that is where my money will go.

I wish  the project well having seen work the factories have made with input and or control from DJM- all good but reviews of some models and the slow inventory of promised models - I got two mermaids in dutch today with a pile still unsold does not give me a WOW factor like the Pendo.

It will have to wait for me not seen face book announcement but hope fully a Hornby style 5 car and extension packs and dummy power car packs for those who want research trains. With 4 differing livery adornments across the 7 leading vehicles of the subsets quite a bit of choice possible.   
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Zwilnik on November 25, 2017, 10:23:45 pm
I think the price is actually sensible from a business point of view. This particular model is likely to have a limited fan base, so would be a very limited run and need a good profit margin to offset the risk. It does have the benefit in terms of crowdfunding that in theory the actual number of orders required to make it viable should be a lot lower. CJM can sell individual locos at £500+ so there probably is a market for low volume, high price sets.

The  Revolution version of the APT potentially has a wider appeal (in terms of both what sort of layouts it could feasibly be run on and the lower price making it more of an impulse buy) so can support a lower price if it hits its order target.

Hopefully both will do really well.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: captainelectra on November 25, 2017, 11:05:43 pm
There was a proposal by Inter-City to use the APT-P Trailers with 73s for the Gatwick Express. I guess the costs of modifying them for conventional use was too great, hence the Mk2s prevailed.

What might have been, eh...?
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: cutting42 on November 26, 2017, 09:26:56 pm
Great news but like some, I have concerns over announcements vs delivery. To commit to crowdfunding you need confidence, I have committed a lot to some crowd funded activities but more evidence of a sound business plan required first in this case.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: daveg on November 26, 2017, 09:45:52 pm
I see that the Product Progress page on the DJM website was last updated in March this year.

http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=422 (http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=422)

I'm sure Dave is extremely busy but perhaps he could arrange an update so we can see the progress since.

Dave G
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: NOE 544R on November 26, 2017, 09:47:54 pm
A very interesting announcement - not a fan of the price but I can see where the money goes. My only problem is we are still waiting for the Clayton's etc .... I won't be putting any money down until we have a commitment to the original N gauge announcements. (P.s. I'd love the Clayton double set weathered).

 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Pete @ EGLM on November 26, 2017, 11:29:51 pm
Revolution crowd funding can deliver an 11 coach Pendolino for around the same price DJM want for a crowd funded 5 car APT.  I won't be funding that.  I do want at least 4 Claytons, but I'm beginning to doubt they will ever appear

Pete @ EGLM
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: emjaybee on November 26, 2017, 11:49:04 pm
Having seen DJM at Warley today, they seem to be full of ideas, wanting people to commit to multiple projects, whilst not seemingly progressing any existing projects to any great degree.

I'd love to be able to commit more to some of their projects but I'm not prepared to get involved when lots of other stuff seems stalled. Other "small" scale manufacturers produce products and continue to progress, I'm keener to support their projects.

Just my thoughts, nothing more.

 :hmmm:
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: mickster04 on November 27, 2017, 12:55:26 am
DJ seems to be doing what Dapol were doing, over-committing with lots of announcements then not delivering nearly as much.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: longbow on November 27, 2017, 01:40:36 am
I share your concerns about over-reach, but DJM are not committing to anything until these crowdfunded projects reach target.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 27, 2017, 09:57:23 am
Revolution crowd funding can deliver an 11 coach Pendolino for around the same price DJM want for a crowd funded 5 car APT.  I won't be funding that.  I do want at least 4 Claytons, but I'm beginning to doubt they will ever appear

Pete @ EGLM

Hi

Prices have also gone up in the three years since that was announced. Look at the price of 4 wheel wagons now around £20 each for something that was around £9 three years ago.

Personally I don't think its over priced but I do agree about the amount of announcements.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 27, 2017, 10:16:57 am
I don't think the 14 car is too expensive really, given the number of different vehicles etc. It's too much for me to have a punt on, as a pure rule 1 purchase. That alone is a delicate balance - by reducing the price I'm sure Dave would have sold more, but how many more I don't know. However the 5-car at £550 is harder to swallow IMO. £110 per coach I think is just too expensive. Yes the market prices have increased, but that's a whole new baseline for any MU. Kernow's TC came under fire for being expensive at £289 for a 4-car unpowered unit. Given how we're told motors aren't actually a hugely significant cost (hence dummies being uneconomical) the 5-car APT at >50% more per coach seems excessive to me. Then again, perhaps it's shrewd pricing to push people towards more expensive but better 'value' options.

It's interesting on RMWeb how a 00 offering is looking vastly more popular, particularly as someone has observed that a 14-car unit in 00 is 14+ feet long!
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: ECMLfan on November 27, 2017, 11:34:10 am
 :photospleasesign:
Revolution crowd funding can deliver an 11 coach Pendolino for around the same price DJM want for a crowd funded 5 car APT.  I won't be funding that.  I do want at least 4 Claytons, but I'm beginning to doubt they will ever appear

Pete @ EGLM

Revolution can because they arranged a fixed price with Rapido. Sadly for Rapido but good for us as the pound has crashed and is a lot less worth compared to the dollar then a year ago. So get used to that for the foreseeable future. Furthermore the APT that RevolutioN is offering only needs tooling for 2coaches as it are two identical half sets. Coming in at around $150.000 for tooling.

I didnít made that up as this is the price one of the RevolutioN guys told me when I asked them some questions regarding the Pendolimo, 321 and possible new models like a 315
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: NeMo on November 27, 2017, 12:09:19 pm
Mine too. These £200+ projects are way out of my price range when it comes to what is, after all, just one of my several hobbies. But the circa-£100 locos are definitely quick purchases for me, and I'd like to see more progress on the Class 17 especially.

DJM's the businessman, not me, and he's the one with skin in the game. But I'd have thought a slow burning, but consistently selling thing like a loco would be a more attractive proposition. The demand for "Rule 1" diesels is out there, and with the Class 17, you also have something with an interesting history, including some departmental and industrial usage to boot! Plus there's a preserved one out there as well. So lots of ways to use one.

It just seems to be in some sort of gestation phase for over 4 years, and I'm wondering if we'll ever see the model!

Cheers, NeMo

Having seen DJM at Warley today, they seem to be full of ideas, wanting people to commit to multiple projects, whilst not seemingly progressing any existing projects to any great degree.

I'd love to be able to commit more to some of their projects but I'm not prepared to get involved when lots of other stuff seems stalled. Other "small" scale manufacturers produce products and continue to progress, I'm keener to support their projects.

Just my thoughts, nothing more.

 :hmmm:
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: emjaybee on November 27, 2017, 12:31:56 pm
Generally speaking, people won't commit to more than they can afford. I've got money earmarked for the J94 in N, so I'm not likely to "commit" to anything else at present (Revolution don't know how lucky they were  ;D). Others have committed to other DJM projects, so, crowd funded or not, all they're doing is watering down interest.

If they actually got something off the production line before coming up with another three projects then we'd probably see more stuff crossing viability thresholds.

 :hmmm:
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: port perran on November 27, 2017, 12:45:19 pm
I, for one, feel that prices have gone beyond the watershed. In fact, I was talking to the owner of a model shop 2 weeks ago and he is very concerned by a drop in sales due to prices over the last twelve months.
I'm fairly lucky in that I already have enough stock both locos and wagons/carriages (in fact I have far too much for my needs really) so Iím not too concerned. It has to be something really special for me to buy now and, perhaps Iím old fashioned but I prefer to see things in the shops before I commit.
Like NeMo, this is only one of my hobbies/interests so money has to be apportioned accordingly. Looking at other things I buy for hobbies etc, I donít feel that prices have risen as much as in the field of model railways.

Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 12:47:55 pm
I think the price is about correct for a limited run special (regardless of manufacturer), and yes there are probably 1000 enthusiasts able willing to stump up this amount to have one (judging by the high end motors parked at TINGS each year).  The rarity might even play to its appeal.

As far as DJ is concerned I think there is a (deliberate) misunderstanding by some.

The Claytons et-al are simply not being produced as Dave does not have the available cash to pay a factory to make them, not for any technical reason.  Frankly he is twiddling his fingers waiting to make some profit from his other offerings to fund the production.  Revolution and others take money up front so they can commit to manufacturing, tool making etc. whereas Dave cannot.

That is why he is now offering crowdfunding so he can go down the Revolution route, and I hope he makes the transition.

What to do - buy his available product to give him the cash to produce more.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: trkilliman on November 27, 2017, 12:55:53 pm
Generally speaking, people won't commit to more than they can afford. I've got money earmarked for the J94 in N, so I'm not likely to "commit" to anything else at present (Revolution don't know how lucky they were  ;D). Others have committed to other DJM projects, so, crowd funded or not, all they're doing is watering down interest.

If they actually got something off the production line before coming up with another three projects then we'd probably see more stuff crossing viability thresholds.

 :hmmm:

I have been enthusiastic about the King class project from the start. I have registered/expressed my interest and said I would be interested in two locos. It's been quiet for several weeks, this was raised, and Dave Jones said an announcement would be made at Warley about this crowdfunded project.

As far as I can accertain no announcement was made.

I am becoming disenchanted with the lack of updates and anything to bolster my confidence that things are actually moving forward. I have not parted with any money yet. To be honest f,rom a point where I was actively goading people to join the crowdfunding, I'm now beginning to have second thoughts.

Am I the only person who has registered an interest in a King loco/s but is now growing cooler towards it?

Snowolflair. I hear what you are saying, but surely if you have a core of people on board you should at least endevour to keep them updated on any progress? With no locos to view we are all putting our faith in him to deliver, against a fair tide of people who for various reasons would not become involved.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 01:02:25 pm
Generally speaking, people won't commit to more than they can afford. I've got money earmarked for the J94 in N, so I'm not likely to "commit" to anything else at present (Revolution don't know how lucky they were  ;D). Others have committed to other DJM projects, so, crowd funded or not, all they're doing is watering down interest.

If they actually got something off the production line before coming up with another three projects then we'd probably see more stuff crossing viability thresholds.

 :hmmm:

I have been enthusiastic about the King class project from the start. I have registered/expressed my interest and said I would be interested in two locos. It's been quiet for several weeks, this was raised, and Dave Jones said an announcement would be made at Warley about this crowdfunded project.

As far as I can accertain no announcement was made.

I am becoming disenchanted with the lack of updates and anything to bolster my confidence that things are actually moving forward. I have not parted with any money yet To be honest from a point where I was actively goading people to join the crowdfunding,although I'm now beginning to have second thoughts.

Am I the only person who has registered an interest in a King loco/s but is now growing cooler towards it?

Snowolflair. I hear what you are saying, but surely if you have a core of people on board you should at least endevour to keep them updated on any progress? With no locos to view we are all putting our faith in him to deliver, against a fair tide of people who for various reasons would not become involved.

Until you put up cash you really cannot complain.  In this life you get what you pay for and as you have paid nothing you get nothing.  :D

I have three reservations for Kings, they have cost me nothing and as long as they are the only option I have to get a descent model of a King i'm happy. 

If Farish or Dapol announce one tomorrow I will review my position but until that happens good luck to Dave.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Steven B on November 27, 2017, 01:13:35 pm

Like others, I'd like to see DJM make some progress on his other N Gauge projects. Similarly, it would have been nice to see some CAD images to go with the anouncement.

Revolution and others take money up front so they can commit to manufacturing, tool making etc. whereas Dave cannot.

That is why he is now offering crowdfunding so he can go down the Revolution route, and I hope he makes the transition.


Hasn't DJM gone down the road of Crowdfunded/pay-up-front for the class 92? He anounced this at the same time as Revolution Trains. Currently RT have a running prototype, DJM has shown nothing but CAD. He may be delivering his anounced models, just doing it a lot slower than we'd like

That said, I alone in being more interested in some of the other models that may follow:
DJM Dave on RMWeb (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/) wrote:
Quote
Durham Trains of Stanley hope that this is the first of a NEW ‘West Coast’ range in N gauge and hope to produce the following models in the coming years as part of the range…..Classes 81, 82, 83, 84 and 85, plus EMU classes 303, 304 and 312.


I'd happily find home for an 85 and a 304.

Steven B.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 27, 2017, 01:35:06 pm

That is why he is now offering crowdfunding so he can go down the Revolution route, and I hope he makes the transition.

What to do - buy his available product to give him the cash to produce more.

Off the top of my head he's announced:

- n gauge cars
- n gauge 92
- 00 gauge 92
- n gauge HUO
- 00 gauge HUO
- APT
- n gauge King

That's 7 models, plus commissions, I'd say that's a very definite transition!
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: RailGooner on November 27, 2017, 01:35:32 pm
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/):
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Calnefoxile on November 27, 2017, 01:37:34 pm
Ok here's my 2'penneth worth.

The cost of the APT-P is certainly putting me off, however compare it to the nearest item available at the moment a Kato Eurostar, a full length Eurostar is 20 coaches and at current prices will cost you in the region of £400-£500 from Gaugemaster http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/Kato-N-Scale-Eurostar (http://www.gaugemaster.com/news/Kato-N-Scale-Eurostar) however, I'm not convinced that by buying the Powered set and the respective number of add on sets, your Eurostar will have the correct number of the different type of coaches in it, more knowledgeable people will be able to comment on that.

So compared to that, DJM's proposed price is a tad unrealistic, however we have to take into account that Dapol were going to produce the Prototype HST minus the 2 Buffet cars and if I remember correctly, that was at circa £500, and don't forget that Dapol already had the HST Coaches available in production. This set is being produced from scratch, as is/was the Revolution Pendolino.

At the moment in N Gauge DJM has produced The Mermaid which, as I've said previously, is actually a very good model it's not without it's faults but I'm sure we can find faults with other manufacturers efforts, and we all invariably do.

But I think the biggest criticism of DJM is that he keeps coming up with announcements in N but not producing anything tangible, the Mermaid is available but only in 1 livery, the sale of which will finance another livery run - I'm sorry but produce a smaller batch of models but in more livery's, how many people are waiting for a specific livery of Mermaid?? I know I am, I want Olive Green and/or Dutch, how long will I have to wait??

If you check out his website http://djmodels.co.uk/ (http://djmodels.co.uk/) apart from his announcement of the 24.5ton Hopper, no mention of the APT-P anywhere.

I think frustration is the operative word with DJM, I honestly believe that Dave is full of good intentions and that he may get overly excited about things, but he then commits to things he can't deliver. We're probably all a bit guilty of that from time to time.

Right of me soapbox, thanks for sticking with my ramblings and I don't think I've actually reached a conclusion  :doh: :doh:

Oh yes I did, in the opening sentence I said I couldn't afford a DJM/Stanley Trains APT-P, I'll probably try and get one of the 3d Printed ones being touted elsewhere on the NGF.

Cheers

Neal.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 01:38:41 pm
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb ([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/[/url]):
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.


Its a liberal use of English.  He actually is almost the only crowdfunder to have also produced a RTR model
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Calnefoxile on November 27, 2017, 01:44:01 pm

DJM Dave on RMWeb ([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/[/url]) wrote:
Quote
Durham Trains of Stanley hope that this is the first of a NEW ĎWest Coastí range in N gauge and hope to produce the following models in the coming years as part of the rangeÖ..Classes 81, 82, 83, 84 and 85, plus EMU classes 303, 304 and 312.


I'd happily find home for an 85 and a 304.

Steven B.


Steve,

I'm with you mate, I noticed that as well. I'd happily make room for most if not all of them.

It's bad enough at the moment trying to get BR Blue Dapol 86's & Farish 87's.

Cheers

Neal.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Calnefoxile on November 27, 2017, 01:46:38 pm
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb ([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/[/url]):
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.


Its a liberal use of English.  He actually is almost the only crowdfunder to have also produced a RTR model


I think Revolution Trains might have something to say about that!!!

However. let's not get into mudslinging a debate about Revolution versus DJM, that's been hammered to death in previous threads. Let's just concentrate on this thread which is about the APT-P.

Cheers

Neal.

P.S. I'm not a MOD  :D :D :D
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: RailGooner on November 27, 2017, 01:50:11 pm
Have just read - well started to read - the DJM announcement on RMWeb ([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/[/url]):
Quote
..
 This model will be made by the worlds most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder, DJModels Ltd,
...


Really(!)? "The worlds [sic] most successful RTR Model Railway Crowdfunder" you say. Can that be true? By what measurement? My view of history is quite different.


Its a liberal use of English.  He actually is almost the only crowdfunder to have also produced a RTR model


I think yours is a very generous interpretation. I read a misuse of English. I'll extend the benefit of doubt, and assess it as accidental misuse rather than deliberate mischief.** But it conveys a great untruth which ought to be corrected.


** EDIT: The next post confirms it was deliberate mischief.
Ah you misunderstand Revolution have not released a RTR that was not also crowdfunded DJ has, that's why its fancy footwork on his use of English.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 01:50:28 pm
Ah you misunderstand Revolution have not released a RTR that was not also crowdfunded DJ has, that's why its fancy footwork on his use of English.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 27, 2017, 02:02:35 pm
Ah you misunderstand Revolution have not released a RTR that was not also crowdfunded DJ has, that's why its fancy footwork on his use of English.

What has DJM crowdfunded in N that has come to market? I mean by that where people paid the funds direct to DJM not another crowdfunding agency.  I see in his guise as a manufacturer he has made for crowdfunders in other scales.  But that would make him a successful manufacturer rather than a crowdfunder. I think my Revolution TEAs were crowdfunded by me and a lot of others, and mine were certainly RTR.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 27, 2017, 02:07:19 pm

That is why he is now offering crowdfunding so he can go down the Revolution route, and I hope he makes the transition.

What to do - buy his available product to give him the cash to produce more.

Off the top of my head he's announced:

- n gauge cars
- n gauge 92
- 00 gauge 92
- n gauge HUO
- 00 gauge HUO
- APT
- n gauge King

That's 7 models, plus commissions, I'd say that's a very definite transition!

Hi

The cars were cancelled IIRC some time back as not viable.

Cheers

Paul

Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 27, 2017, 02:48:34 pm
Never said they were successful, merely that it was something else he offered via crowdfunding. Snowwolflair implied he was considering a transition to crowdfunding, was just saying heís more jumped in with both feet IMO.

The RTR Crowdfunded thing is a bit misleading, itís not really any different to him referring to his 92 as ďde facto model of the class for modellersĒ which heís done in several places. Itís a bit unprofessional.

Still, this is about the APT, I do hope it succeeds, itíll certainly make a very impressive model, I just wish it was half the price so I could have a punt on one!
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 27, 2017, 02:57:22 pm
The RTR Crowdfunded thing is a bit misleading, itís not really any different to him referring to his 92 as ďde facto model of the class for modellersĒ which heís done in several places. Itís a bit unprofessional.


It is a bit like those one word "reviews" attached to films and stage show pubiclty. "The level of amateurishness was breathtaking" gets translated as "Breathtaking".

I would like an APT-P. A bit bedazzled by the options at the moment, and uncertain whether I will survive the full length of the gestation period, though I hope that I will.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: railsquid on November 27, 2017, 03:01:05 pm
Still, this is about the APT, I do hope it succeeds, itíll certainly make a very impressive model, I just wish it was half the price so I could have a punt on one!
Seconded; if I really really wanted an APT I'd go for it, but I don't, so won't, at least at that price. I would however splash out a similar amount for a selection of the 1st gen AC electrics hinted at, if there were a plausible chance of them ever appearing before I shuffle off this mortal coil.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 03:01:37 pm
I think you ask yourself.  Does it cost to reserve one and do I have to pay anything before I can evidence it will be delivered.  One thing I am sure of is if you donít ask you wonít get.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: njee20 on November 27, 2017, 03:12:47 pm
Thatís what led Revolution to have a significant gulf between expressions of interest and orders on the 321 though, and I donít think is helpful. The reality is that I wonít buy one based on whatís been presented so far, so whilst I am ďinterestedĒ in the truest sense of the word I think itís disingenious to formalise my intent.

If things change then maybe Iíll order one, but Iím not going to over inflate the apparent interest.
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Vonzack on November 27, 2017, 03:46:46 pm
An announcement probably better suited to 1st of April for me. For the asking price, these need to be very premium models at the end of the day, especially as they won't be DCC or Sound on board.
Title: Re: D.
Post by: DJM Dave on November 27, 2017, 04:07:29 pm
Ok,

Iíll post here the once, for those that choose to ignore or twist the facts, and for those that know and understand them. (yes I know this is a harsh opening sentence but please bear with me)

I am, like others, trying to make a careers out of being self employed making model trains. You all know me I think, and I will cover quickly the business plan I have, that I also laid out in the Ďother placeí so that there could be no miss-interpretation.

I have a list as long as my arm of products announced, and freely admit it is too long. I made a decision on the OO J94 to allow the tool to make far signs of the model than iíd Originally budgeted. this would give, as long as I donít flood the market and kill the goose, an income I could semi rely on for years to come in alternate decorations, and new running numbers.

However itís all very well having these grandiose ideas, but they needed paying for. And the bill for tooling lept from 5 figure to 6 figures (then the decimal point) and affected monies available to invest in the other models.

Subsequently I announced the Q6, Mogul etc, thinking that things would turn around quicker than they have and as such these models are still on the drawing board. I have all intention to do them, as I said I would, but no dosh to finance them.
So, meanwhile I was commissioned by clients to make models for them. Obviously being the small guy, my contracts left only a small amount of profit per project to put back into the business. But them's the breaks and a percentage of something is better than all of nothing right?

Anyway, I decided to do the pendolino as a crowdfunder. But didnít. At the same time I did the OO class 71 as one and succeeded where others havenít by producing the worlds first 100% crowdfunded RTR Model railway locomotive.
Subsequently adding special commissioned liveries to that model to make a small profit.

Meanwhile a chance to make my beloved class 92 came along as a potential crowdfunder and in both gauges at the same time too. Great, I didnít have the money or a manufacturer behind me but ploughed on, and am on the verge of tooling both scales having just secured the Stobart licence for a model in each scale.

I then played with the idea of cars, but in all honesty I can see why it wasnít a successful idea as not only did modellers not come forward, it was obvious why, as I truly didn't have a handle on what marks or makes of car people wanted, so that was my fault.

The chance for the king in N was too good to miss, and as such without monies a crowdfunded venture was the only way.

Iím pleased to say the king and both 92ís have been successful and will all be invoiced at the end of January with tooling started on all 3 almost immediately the deposits are in.

So, what about the progression of my own range I hear you say, well thatís plodding on, and the chance to make the mermaid, shark and a couple of other wagons at a reasonable tooling price proved too tempting and as such I decide to increase the range on N in my portfolio from 0 to 1 by paying for the mermaid which is now out in black, and soon to be in Dutch, and will add the shark when I approve the 2nd ep for production.

Monies from these have come from the J94 sales, and the class 71ís.
And before anyone says it, no, I donít have any more cash squirrelled away, I made only on both projects, plus some from clients on others, but itís all vatable, corporation tax is in there somewhere, advertising too, it all mounts up.
And itís not just a loco quote anymore, itís box, livery samples, masks, spares, it all costs and whittles away at your Ďprofití.

Anyway, so with a whittled down profit, but still profit, I decided to do the mermaid. I donít make much, in fact profit wonít be achieved until the run after the dutch ones, and the profit will be relatively small, but a percentage of something etc......

Iíve managed to pay for the first ep of the class 17, and have approved it for 2nd ep status, prior to decorated models and production models.
A lot of companies in China want production payments up front so iíll Have to find that, and also 25% of the total tooling costs for 2nd ep samples too.
Oh and not forgetting the box it comes it. All a pretty penny that........ could have been almost fully paid for if I hadnít have decided to alter the tooling for the OO gauge J94

Do I regret that decision? Yes and no. Yes because as most of you know iím An N gauge man, and would love to have had the 17 out by now, and onto the 23, and no because I have to look at the long term picture of a viable income stream through a market that is bigger than N gauge.

I know there are gaps in this, but please be gentle, I could go on, but iím Boring enough right? Lol

Anyway, crowdfunding. Someone posted that if you donít spend, you donít lose, and that even if you sign up, your not necessarily paying anyway....king, huoís, etc.

But please note, and this is very important, a DJM crowdfunder is that, a crowdfunder. Isnít not a usurper of DJM main range funds, itís a separate issue, and has nothing to do with the explained reasons why that isnít speeding up as iíd Like (and letís not talk about brexit in there either or I will really bore you on how much I lost in profit).

Crowdfunding, whoever does it, is a way of getting you, if you want one, a model you might not ever see, or might wait years to see from mainstream manufacturers.

Itís not risk free, but it helps everyone in the long run, due to increasing the presence of the gauge (Iím talking N gauge specifically here), and to us all as modellers by bringing more investment into the N gauge hobby. That cannot be bad, can it?

Now, onto the APT. (Oh no they all collectively cry, thereís more?) like any company who gets approached by a third party for a project, do you turn it away?Well youíd be dumb not to accept it, especially as the APT is a favourite of mine, and given the fantastic exclusive help we are getting from Crewe. and giving back in a small way too.

So anyway, I will not turn away any business, and the APT gives me a big chance to step up features etc as I did with a previous employer, and hopefully raise the bar a tad or 2.
It is not, I repeat, not A DJM crowdfunder, it is a Durham Trains of Stanley crowdfunder, and I have been contracted, should funds be raised, and so far itís a huge response in both gauges that even I thought initially possible, to design, manufacture and supply sets to my client for onward sending to you, the customer.

I have ample free time to design models should I get commissions, or others wanting to run a crowdfunder. But being almost part time at the minute, I get to relax in Wales on a mountain photographing low level fighter jets for a hobby.
Given the choice though, iíd Rather be much much busier.

So there we are...... now you know, iím not rich, Iíve made mistakes, things are happening slowly on the main range but far quicker on crowdfunders as funding to do them is there through you the modeller.
You know that one doesnít affect the other immediately, although should a crowdfunder project make money it will go into the N gauge list projects.

Ergo the more crowdfunders I do that succeed, and actually make money from,  the more models come out, and I hope to one day pay myself a wage........oh yes I bet, I hear you say at the back..........truthfully, I havenít taken a wage for 4 1/4 years. Itís a building business, and building not as fast as iíd Like, but building nonetheless.

5 years from now I hope youíll all be moaning that thereís too much choice in N gauge. I know some of you will ;-)

So I sign off by saying thereís more surprises to go as I still have 2 contracts to get signed which will be liked by quite a few when you get to see what they are for etc, but thatís for another day.

Those that know me know I want the best for the hobby, I hope Iíve proved that in the past, what I need to do now is show you that I need to carry on doing that, but trust me, itís my intention to try and try hard, although hard doesnít mean anything if there are no models in the shops.

Some of this may not sway the doubters, nay sayers, or agenda people in here (and yes you know who you are as much as I and others do) but it is honest, open and frank.

Please remember, though, the APT is a third party commission, like the Kernow gate stock or Hattons 14xx, and not a DJM led project.

Cheers guys, and may I be the first to wish you all a very happy Christmas and a wonderful new year.

Dave
DJModels Ltd


Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: DJM Dave on November 27, 2017, 04:17:42 pm
Apparently what I said was so good I repeated myself like watching +1 television channels. Lol

Apologies, not sure what I did, but I donít want to delete the post in case it deletes the +1 version too. If you get my drift.

Cheers
Dave

Administrator Comment Removed the double post - Tank
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 27, 2017, 04:22:43 pm
Dave

Your explanation matches what I understood.

Just one point. If you are factoring in Corporation Tax payments but not paying yourself a decent wage you need some accountancy advice. :-)
Title: Re: DJM APT-P
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 04:50:45 pm
Gentlemen for the sake of accuracy (and to alay the DJM bitching) can I propose we rename this thread for accuracy as it is unfair to the commercial interests of Durham Trains of Stanley.

Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunder

@Tank (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)  @Only Me (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328)  @Bealman (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=255)
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on November 27, 2017, 05:24:30 pm
As it's 'my' topic I appear to be able to change the name, and have done so.

I won't call it a "crowdfunder" though, as that name really grates! Someone who backs the project could be said to be a crowdfunder, the project itself isn't!
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on November 27, 2017, 05:32:59 pm
 :D
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Zwilnik on November 27, 2017, 06:12:48 pm
Dave

Your explanation matches what I understood.

Just one point. If you are factoring in Corporation Tax payments but not paying yourself a decent wage you need some accountancy advice. :-)

I'd second this. The cost of the advice will usually pay itself back many times over and if you're running on low enough profit that you don't want to take a wage you should be near zero in terms of corporation tax. You should at least be able to take the £680 a month you can pay yourself as an employee (if it's a Ltd company, you're an employee) without costing you or the company NI and offset that against corporation tax. (If you then want to re-invest that in the company, that's your own choice).

I know from experience that running a small business like this is like sitting in a shopping trolley at the top of a ski jump and giving yourself a push. So it can seem pretty manic despite a lot of it being large periods of "Hurry up and wait". Image is a huge deal though. (I suspect more so with this particular market as the customers are a bit more traditional), so I'd personally be a bit more careful with the "Only crowdfunded RTR" stuff. It doesn't matter how technically true it is, it's more about whether statements like that confuse the customers and make them more or less able to feel they trust the brand. Now's a good time to seriously harp on about the stuff they can see and buy (well done on those btw). :)
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: emjaybee on November 27, 2017, 06:18:40 pm
@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) thanks very much for the insight and clarification, I apologise for my earlier statements which I wouldn't have committed to page knowing the full facts. I think your explanation was much needed and very welcome. I think all who have posted want to see more N gauge choice and range so here's hoping it comes together.

If I may be so bold as to ask if you've any idea on time frames (however long) for the N gauge J94? It's something I'm rather keen on, but if you're realistically talking another couple of years then I can spend my meagre spare cash (self-employed too, I feel your pain!) on something else in the meantime and re-save for the J94.

Good luck to you.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: trkilliman on November 27, 2017, 06:55:22 pm
Dave Jones, Your comprehensive post with explanations will surely go some way to alay misgivings /reservations.

This is what I'm sure many people wish for, an explanation and update on the projects you have announced and they may have expressed an interest in.

As somebody said whilst people continue to wait for any news/ the arrival of your projects, other stuff is coming along. Their attention could well swing towards these items with little or no updates from you.

I feel somewhat reassured after reading your lengthly post, and think it would be prudent of you to ensure people are kept aware of how your projects are progressing.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Newportnobby on November 27, 2017, 09:39:05 pm
@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)

A huge thanks for taking time off the mountain top to explain all that's going on (I've seen some of Dave's pics and they're awesome). Without having a go, all I'd say is that your post is long overdue as the info is just not there on your website and we, the members of this forum, are waiting for for the initially promised items in many cases (classes 17 and 23 + the J94) which, as per the 'Product Progress' on your website were announced 4 years ago. I appreciate sales of one fund the next but if you could update info a little more frequently it would help and also quieten the denigrators.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Yet_Another on November 27, 2017, 10:52:02 pm
Quick point of order: per above post, shouldn't this be moved out of DJM and just be under "Crowdfunding"?
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: JonHarbour on November 28, 2017, 10:40:23 am
Great explanation Dave. Makes things very clear. Also agree about getting some accountancy advice :D

Much as I would like an APT-P, it's a little out of my league price-wise. Looking forward to the coming announcements though, plus further news on the 'N' J94 and the GWR Mogul. Gutted I missed out on the black mermaids - still, you snooze, you lose.

I hsincerely hope the APT-P is the success it deserves to be!
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Newportnobby on November 28, 2017, 11:59:30 am
@JonHarbour (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1600)

Rails of Sheffield show stock..........

https://railsofsheffield.com/manufacturer-dj-models-JJJM23?Personalise=false&searchTerm=&Category=Truck%2FWagon&Gauge=N+Gauge&SortMethod=ProductCodeAscending
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Railwaygun on November 28, 2017, 05:30:07 pm
Quick point of order: per above post, shouldn't this be moved out of DJM and just be under "Crowdfunding"?

your wish is my command

Modbot
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: robert shrives on November 29, 2017, 09:32:28 pm

Hi gang link to the ace reference site on all things ATP.
http://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm (http://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm)

DJ is saying on RM Web that he is sorting  vehicles and options to go to Stanley trains of Durham boss for approval so hopefully in next few weeks the flyer details were be firm for order options.  Seems and it might be the OO market but DJ notes the 14car version is most popular - which as it gives a discount car price is not surprising, if the N pricing model is applied to the Over sized version!
The ATP site shows the variation of frontal decs applied - almost like it went to Tinsley every weekend for a slight change to details. With all yellow, Yellow black surrounds and then he outline arrows, intercity and apt logos morph into intercity blocked in and then arrows blocked in with a version with all three in black and the the apt in rail red- and then a thin 1" red line added between the Yellow and beige just above the lights line extending into the red at the base of the upswing. Who said it would be easy !! lucky Dave..     
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on December 02, 2017, 11:08:04 am
Thanks for that Robert.

Someone on RMWeb has analysed the 00 orders so far in black below. I have added the comparable N figures in red alongside:-

                    00                                N

 5 car set     11.6%                           5%
  6 car set     22.09%                        5%
  7 car set     16.27%                        0%
10 car set     18.6%                         26%
14 car set     31.39%                        63%

Shows the challenge of running long trains on 00 layout.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: cutting42 on December 12, 2017, 04:15:34 pm
A 14er interest has been registered. An iconic train from my youth and although out of era and region is most definitely a must have.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Dalek on December 31, 2017, 12:00:18 pm
I'm no expert on the apt at all, can anybody explain the differences between the models on offer ?  :dunce:

Black/Yellow front windows ? Was it yellow at first then changed to black or the other way round ?
Power car on the real one was in the middle ? Does that mean the model is driven from the middle as well ?

 :confused2:



DJM-APT-N-0002
5 car set (1 power car 49006) 
370006 & 370007 Black front window
£549.95    48106/48606/49006/48607/48107

DJM-APT-N-0001
6 car set (1 power car 49001)
370001 & 370005 Yellow front window
£599.95  48101/48201/48601/49001/48205/48105

DJM-APT-N-0003
7 car set (1 power 49006 1 dummy 49003 City of Derby)
370006 & 370003 Black front window
£649.95  48106/48606/49006/49003/48603/48203/48103

DJM-APT-N-0004
7 car set  ( 1 power 49006, 1 dummy 49002
370004 & 370002 Yellow front window
£649.95  48104/48604/49004/49002/48602/48202/48102

DJM-APT-N-0006
10 car set (1 working power car 49006 & 1 Dummy 49003 City of Derby)
370006 & 370003 Black front window
£799.95   48106/48206/48406/48606/49006/49003/48603/48403/48203/48103


DJM-APT-N-0007
14 car set (2 working power cars 49005 & 49002)
370005 & 370002  Black front window
£899.95   48105/48205/48405/48305/48505/48605/49005/49002/48602/48502/48302/
               48402/48202/48102

N Gauge APT-P Specifications

1) Working 'Damped' tilt mechanism
2) DCC Next18
3) DCC Sound ready with space for speaker
4) Directional lighting
5) Internal subdued coach lighting ( Controllable on DCC)
6) Removable and posable nose with NEM coupling pocket on cab front bulkhead
7) High Quality 5 pole skew wound motor with twin flywheels
8) Us outline style drive train and gearing with train geared for 140mph
9) Cab lighting
10) Fully decorated interior throughout
11) Correct pattern and color seats for 1st and 2nd class
12) Limited Edition certificate
13) Close coupling with non-gap corridor connectors
14) Radius 2 compatible
15) Dual power motor units for longer trains
16) Etched steel windscreen wipers
17) Separately applied parts including foot steps, door slider rails
18) Flush Glazing
19) Darkened profile wheel sets to RP25-110
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: CaleyDave on December 31, 2017, 12:26:56 pm
Yellow and then later black and yellow. Think it was the first train painted what became intercity executive livery so the black window surrounds were the evolution to the final executive livery.

Yes my understanding is the model will be driven from the middle. With the 6/7 car sets including a dummy and the 10/14 having two motors.

Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Dalek on December 31, 2017, 05:18:12 pm
Thanks for the info @CaleyDave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4869)   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on January 12, 2018, 11:57:35 am
DJModels have published an update on the Durham Trains of Stanley APT-P model in N.  Now shown in the next post below.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Tank on January 12, 2018, 12:02:43 pm
You're too quick Woodbury!  :D

An email from DJM to put on the forum.....

Quote
N & OO Gauge Crowdfunded APT Press release Friday 12th January 2018

 

With it now being 7 weeks since the surprise announcement at the Warley MRC 2017 exhibition, it is time for a progress report.

Both Durham Trains of Stanley and DJModels Ltd are very pleased with progress so far with OO, running at over 65% of the total required to be self funding in all aspects achieved, and more orders coming in on a daily basis.

The N gauge is, surprisingly, just over 25% funded so far but it is hoped that as more become aware of the project they will jump on board and order.

Adverts will soon start to appear in the press pushing the project forward into modellers consciousness, and press releases will continue to be released as we go along.

For those that do not know, this model promises to be the train a lot of you have always wished for, and to that aim we have specified and had agreed the specification which is available online, but a few things do need to be reiterated here.

 

Namely,

A working tilting mechanism in both gauges, Next18 or higher decoder socket, On board DCC sound capability, directional lighting, internal car lighting throughout, heavy metal chassis and gearing based on the best of Japanese / American Practice in design and construction, Seats with correct tartan seat and seat back design and colours, Painted and finished buffet car, fully modelled and painted cab interior with cab lighting, removable nose with accessory pack containing buffers and lifting arm for nose and NEM coupling for those that wish this feature, 5 pole skew wound motor with flywheels and a host of other fine detail you would expect for such a prestigious model.

Design still goes on in the background as it is felt that working through the design features of the model now, will give us a Ďhead startí on the model and testing before the model goes into tooling. However the thinking process on how we can make this model even better goes on, and we welcome any ideas our customers might have to help develop what could be the ultimate model electric train made.

There will be regular updates from this moment forward, and once we reach the line, and hopefully cross it, we will organise the laser scanning party at Crewe Heritage Centre.

 

Best regards

Mick Worrell (Durham Trains of Stanley)

Dave Jones (DJModels Ltd)
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on January 12, 2018, 12:06:56 pm
Sorry Tank. I am pleased that Dave is keeping NGF up to date on this project. Still needs a lot of oomph to get to 100% funded.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on March 04, 2018, 05:15:50 pm
The 00 gaugeversion is just 50 orders short of getting the go ahead. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128566-oo-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/?p=3072033 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128566-oo-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/?p=3072033)

What do we need to do to stoke up some more N gauge interest. N was down around 25% of the required order level at the last update in January 2018.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Railbank on March 05, 2018, 09:41:12 pm
the main problem as I see it is that the crowdfunding arena is just that ...... crowded

stating the obvious the n gauge market is only a fraction of OO hence the lag for APT-P and whilst the intention is to spread the cost the instalments will still be hefty amounts from disposable incomes that most of us modellers rely on.

Also the market is now offering lots & lots of tempting releases at an unprecedented rate.

With 2 different manufacturers of Class 92, KFA's, 321/322's, Cargo Wagons, HOA's, Sturgeons, and potentially some extra Pendolino's available, coupled to the Dapol 68's, Farish 40's and the plethora of other general releases by the big 2 - currently standing at 5 pre-orders for me - I am now catching my breath.

Whilst APT-P is certainly a nice to have, and back in the day I even saw it once on a test run, at present I will not buy into the current offering.

Cost is the main thing, yes it's a one time production run but at £900 for a 14 car set, and that's the one I would want, it's just too big a layout financially.

Risk of spanners in the works & delay is another factor - I have already bought into this manufacturers class 92, (yes I know DToS is the commissioner of APT-P), but the DJM Class 92 has seen delay after delay even though the trigger level of crowd-funders signed up was quickly reached - so until I see the fruits of Class 92 I will remain an interested observer.

The Pendolino is a good benchmark as to how long this project might take, yes a different manufacturer but an equal challenge due to numbers of cars, complexity of design and the huge numbers of units that will have to be produced to make up the sets.

Sadly I don't think we will see APT-P in ready to run n gauge soon.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Mustermark on March 05, 2018, 10:09:18 pm
I agree, itís a nice to have, but I never saw it in real life and the price is too high for a nice to have.

I never saw a Grey-Blue Pullman either, but the price there is about the borderline, so I have that on my list.

APT-E, on the other hand is a must have. I saw that in the flesh.  Iíll sell a kidney for that one.
 :laugh3:
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on March 05, 2018, 10:18:03 pm
Yep, thatís me too. At half the price iíd have had one, but itís too expensive for a total rule one punt. Call me a colossal cynic, but I also dislike Dave saying things like ďthey hope to have something tangible by Warley at the latestĒ, heís got a history for ridiculously ambitious and meaningless deadlines, I donít know why he persists.

It sounds like a terrific model, has he said the required volumes to actually get it across the line? I thought 50 sounded like some way adrift still? For all involved I really hope it happens, but I will also be an interested observer.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: acko22 on March 27, 2018, 07:40:40 pm
OK so first post on here in a long..... time since I have been rather busy with work.

I had heard of the APT-P been done by DJM as a commission, but as tempting it is at the prices that are been asked well its to much for me to stomach! This isn't a dig at DJM Dave as I know its not him that is setting the prices its Durhams of Stanley.

As a brief comparison the Revolution 11 car "City of Birmingham" is 365 Vs the 10 car APT-P at more than double that been a penny short of 800, then this has me asking how many are they actually expecting to sell I know RT had to hit 1000 minimum so are Durhams only epxecting 600 or so sales in N gauge? Comparing the Pendo agains the APT-P for the variants in cars (from my understanding) they both have 7 individual cars that need to be designed to make a set:

Pendonlino:
DMRF   Driving motor: first class open with kitchen   
MF   Intermediate motor: first class open (with disabled seating)
PTF   Intermediate trailer with pantograph: first class open
MS   Intermediate motor: standard class open
TS   Intermediate trailer: standard class open
PTSRMB   Intermediate trailer with pantograph: standard class with shop/buffet & train managers office
DMSO   Driving motor: "Quiet Zone" standard class open (with cycle storage)

APT-P:
Driving Trailer Second
Trailer Second
Trailer Restaurant Second Buffet
Trailer Unclassified
Trailer First
Trailer Brake First
Non-Driving Motor

So to a degree of design requirement I would say that yes there is more work involved in the APT-P (you can scan an entire Pendolino but not a complete APT-P the Trailer Second is missing from the set at Crewe), but to ask an extra +400 for the APT-P is severely going to hinder the sales, even when taking into account the devaluation of the pound (With my travels I know the fluctuation all to well), the higher costs of manufacturing compared to 2014 and profit expectations.

Been honest DCC and lights are standard these days the only new internal working would be the tilt which IIRC some German models have that and if that is the reasoning for the massive difference then I can easily live without, so sorry as much as I would want one at the prices asked its a no from me!

I personally don't feel that it will reach the required funding anytime soon sadly and I say this as a "rule - 1ish" (If one exists then it could run on the mainline again - Western on hire to GBRF proved that) person who would have one if the price was right.

As I say this is in no way a dig at DJM Dave as he is the manufacturer but maybe he should take note and possibly say what is been wrote by others in regards to pricing to Durhams as it does seem to be a common elimination factor for many people with it simple been to much to stomach for a model regardless how how long or iconic it status when you compare it with other similar offerings that are out there.

Finally - This one is for DJM Dave, I appreciate what you said in your post and I agree money doesn't grow on trees to funding everything at the same time, and production slots must be a pain to sort due multiple factors forward planning been affected by flaws found in EPs, livery, etc.
But I hope you can appreciate that (using your class 17 for example) to have 3D print of the class 17 body back in 2014 at Tings and then nothing to show until Warley 2017 does create false expectations of time frames, and this coupled in with the number of announcements you have made without seemingly much progress on many of them does begin to annoy people (your not the only one BTW - Farish 319 anyone?).
It just harks back to what I can only describe as a territorial uniting contest with manufacturers putting their name against thing without intent of doing them with anytime soon which I am sure like me there are plenty of people who are rather bored of, and would like to see model coming out sooner rather than later as I know I have put funds aside in the past for models which then gets spent on other models as I get  :censored: off with waiting. 
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 27, 2018, 07:53:24 pm
I follow your rational, however, its comparing price now and a price nearly four years ago and that's before currency fluctuations.

Ask Ben and Mike what they would have to charge for the Pendalino now, and you might find there is little difference.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: acko22 on March 27, 2018, 07:58:51 pm
I follow your rational, however, its comparing price now and a price nearly four years ago and that's before currency fluctuations.


I have looked and used the commercial (bank of England trading rates) for my understanding both the GBP to the USD and against the Yuan the difference is 18% against at currenent markets and with the increased costs in China I still cant find the more than double costings which Durhams are asking unless as I say they are not expecting to hit the 1000 model mark in n gauge.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on March 27, 2018, 08:03:08 pm
I was told a rerun of the Pendalinos would be +£600 a full spec unit and that's to rerun a model that has already been successfully manufactured.  Add to that the design, development and tooling costs you are at +£800.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on March 27, 2018, 08:18:36 pm
I am fairly certain that this is priced on a sales volume in the low hundreds, so the tooling cost is thickly spread. The 00 gauge one is getting near to its tooling target, and the N gauge one is still way off. I would be astounded if there were even 250 people likely to stump up for these at the listed prices but be warned that comparing with other planned items might be a nasty shock. The minor retool of the Class 350 to a Class 450 is estimated by Hattons at around £240 for 4 cars. So an RRP around £280. So RRP for 12 cars would be £840, plus say £60 for two more trailer cars, making it £900 for 14 cars. The 14 car APT-P with two power cars is listed at £899.95. Makes you think.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: DJM Dave on March 27, 2018, 08:36:37 pm
Someone remind me how much the RRP on the re re-run with minor retooling OO gauge ĎWestern Regioní Pullman is again?

For a 6 car unit, which has had its tooling amortised considerably in at least 3 runs in blue.

Please donít compare one model in N with another as the numbers of units made and a manufacturer going some way to underwrite the price, doesnít make for a fair comparison that will hold water.

Simply put, there will never be 1000 APT-Pís sold, or 500 or even 200 in N gauge.

So the price must reflect an item which has to pay for itself as the basic minimum requirement.

If the N gauge one doesnít cover 200 models then so be it, but It wonít be for the want of trying despite the nay sayers.

As for looking at exchange rates and tax/wage rises in China and thinking they should affect prices here so much, think again.
If something goes up 20% in China, that will be A greater figure once everyone down the food chain raises their prices to keep their margin percentage.

It will change, you and I know it cannot go on, but I would hope that at the very minimum, the UK buying public will become accustomed to paying the Ďgoing rateí for their models rather than want everything on the cheap (guilty as charged mílud, In the past).

People in HK are already looking further afield for production, with India, Taiwan, South Korea, Thailand and even the Philippines being explored for manufacturing opportunities.

However I see a glimmer of hope on the UK front in this respect, so who knows what might happen in the next few years.

Dave

Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: acko22 on March 27, 2018, 08:52:22 pm
Dave,

thank you for the prompt reply, your answers go a long way to answering questions I have. From what I understand then the pricing set out is aimed towards the bare minimum run (by your numbers that been around 200), which makes the pricing understandable.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: nobby on March 27, 2018, 08:55:05 pm
i think i would want a lot more details on the specs before i commit and then i am still unsure because whats the added cost for the dcc sound ie because of the design of the train is the power cars going to be in the middle in which case do you need a sound chip and speaker in the head car because you dont want the horn sounding 7 cars back, so is this train going to need 4 sound chips  2x power car for sound 2 x head car for lights and sound so that adds another possible £400 quid to the total.
so i am looking at £1300 for 1 train or am i over thinking this because at this price level i would like to know a lot more now if i am honest before i decide.

Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Railbank on March 27, 2018, 09:06:43 pm
May be the proposed APT-P is on the money for n gauge models being developed now, but the broad opinion is that n gauge is a very much smaller market to OO, subsequently the pool that can afford these high end prices is also considerably smaller and this is why I also identified in an earlier post that I don't see the APT-P happening any time soon unfortunately.

The Farish retooling of the 350 is a brave step by them given that the original run were heavily discounted and took a considerable time to shift, but presumably they have worked on their figures and market research and believe they can turn a profit on a 450 version. Ditto the 6 car Pullman at the original price so let's see if they manage to shift them at the revised price. Dapol's 68's are selling well but have not yet sold out quickly like the OO versions did.

Variety is also a major factor against sign ups like APT-P, there is just too much choice for current and potential models that require discretionary modelling spend to be budgeted for and its not only across the various manufacturers, but each manufacturer in turn appears to have a development/crowdfunder list as long as your arm.

Like Acko the incessant delays and false promises are starting to grind, yes I have waited 3 years for the Pendolino but at least they kept me reasonably informed of the stages in development/manufacture and the price did not increase which kept me on board.

One crowdfunded project I am paid into is under serious consideration of cancellation following the numerous statements made as to milestones and deadlines going to be achieved and then nothing - no updates - no acknowledgements - just a total blank. This is why I have decided not to sign up to anymore projects with that manufacturer. 

In summary given that the n gauge market is small, the demographics, financial strength and interests of n gauge modellers are like general society varied I would suggest that niche products like APT-P can ill afford to alienate their potential clientele hence why it appears to be struggling to gain momentum.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: nobby on March 27, 2018, 09:28:12 pm
i always felt that the 350 farish made, should also have been done as a 450 at the same time , as only have to have 1 london midland unit , because up till this year you couldn't even run a wcml railway because the main emu was missing and have the corridor connection as a add on piece so they could have made the class 360 without whole new bodies. the cep unit as much as this was very nice model it was a strange choice hampered by the fact that 1 , 7 years after its release the 2 ebp to go along side to is still missing 2, needs a complete retool to model 1982 onwards , perhaps a better choice would have been cig unit,
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on March 27, 2018, 09:53:06 pm
The 450 suffers just as badly as the 350 did though - nothing to go with it; no 444, 445, an ageing 159 not available in the right livery currently.

I definitely think thatís bold, as said given how the 350s are heavily discounted.

We digress. I remain excited about the APT. At half the price Iíd have bought one, ironically I wonder if twice as many people wouldíve followed suit. Would that have been more viable?! I hope for those who have put their money down (or a pledge to) that they are rewarded with a fine model.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on March 27, 2018, 10:09:28 pm

Simply put, there will never be 1000 APT-Pís sold, or 500 or even 200 in N gauge.

So the price must reflect an item which has to pay for itself as the basic minimum requirement.

If the N gauge one doesnít cover 200 models then so be it, but It wonít be for the want of trying despite the nay sayers.


Dave

Thanks for the insight Dave. I commend Durham Trains of Stanley and DJModels for the APT-P initiative, and I hope that it will come to fruition. If it does, then owners will have a train which will truly justify the description ďrareĒ.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Karhedron on March 27, 2018, 10:17:27 pm
The 450 suffers just as badly as the 350 did though - nothing to go with it; no 444, 445, an ageing 159 not available in the right livery currently.

West of Basingstoke the situation improves as the 450s run alongside Voyagers, and Turbostars on passenger turns as well as 66s, 67s and 70s on freight. Plus that stretch of line is popular with steam specials if you want to add a bit of variety.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on March 27, 2018, 10:24:03 pm
Only really on the stretch between Basingstoke and Southampton, and the same is true of the WCML. Indeed you see far more WCML layouts than SWML Iíd say. St Denys aside.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: amsie on March 28, 2018, 04:41:19 pm
The 450 suffers just as badly as the 350 did though - nothing to go with it; no 444, 445, an ageing 159 not available in the right livery currently.

I definitely think thatís bold, as said given how the 350s are heavily discounted.

We digress. I remain excited about the APT. At half the price Iíd have bought one, ironically I wonder if twice as many people wouldíve followed suit. Would that have been more viable?! I hope for those who have put their money down (or a pledge to) that they are rewarded with a fine model.

I personally think the whole of railway modelling suffers from this problem.  An EPB with no refurbished CEP, an absolute distinct lack of models for London modellers, all I ever see is the same old tired locos rerun and a few DMU units.  You could also say the same about the Chiltern 68, no rolling stock to go with it.  It's been the bane of my modelling for years hence why I've had to build numerous kits, or attempt to build my own in N gauge.  I understand my particular interest would probably be not profitable for any RTR manufacturer and by all accounts the 350's haven't made money hence they are sold off at low prices? 

Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on March 28, 2018, 05:12:34 pm
The 450 suffers just as badly as the 350 did though - nothing to go with it; no 444, 445, an ageing 159 not available in the right livery currently.

I definitely think thatís bold, as said given how the 350s are heavily discounted.

We digress. I remain excited about the APT. At half the price Iíd have bought one, ironically I wonder if twice as many people wouldíve followed suit. Would that have been more viable?! I hope for those who have put their money down (or a pledge to) that they are rewarded with a fine model.


You could also say the same about the Chiltern 68, no rolling stock to go with it.  It's been the bane of my modelling for years hence why I've had to build numerous kits, or attempt to build my own in N gauge.

I fully expect there to be Chiltern Mainline Mk3s in 2019, based on their unmodified Mk3 commuter set, and also suitable for the Class 67 era.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: amsie on March 28, 2018, 05:54:27 pm
I fully expect there to be Chiltern Mainline Mk3s in 2019, based on their unmodified Mk3 commuter set, and also suitable for the Class 67 era.

Your probably right in N gauge, in OO it's a different story hence my switch back although even if there was in N gauge there's a lack of 165's 168's etc etc ;-)
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Lindi on April 12, 2018, 11:01:38 am
This project now has reached about 47% of "expressions of interest" for the N gauge version still a long way to go before it becomes reality. The OO version is now progressing to collecting the deposit.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on April 12, 2018, 11:54:40 am
Apparently fewer than 100 orders thus far. I think I'm surprised it's not more popular.  But maybe I'm not given the price.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: emjaybee on April 12, 2018, 12:36:52 pm
Apparently fewer than 100 orders thus far. I think I'm surprised it's not more popular.  But maybe I'm not given the price.

To my mind, it's a bit of a 'niche' purchase. Compared to any other loco/dmu/emu/specialist rake there is probably a quite reduced number of people that would want one. The anticipated cost then reduces the number again.

Just my thoughts. That said, for those that DO want one, I really hope it succeeds.

Good luck.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: carderrail on April 12, 2018, 06:19:19 pm
I am not sure the price is the only issue - my problem is too many to choose from - I would go for a 14-car and another but which one?? No way can afford all so a bit bewildered. Sometimes choice is good and other times it is in fact off putting.... So still confused....

Apparently fewer than 100 orders thus far. I think I'm surprised it's not more popular.  But maybe I'm not given the price.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: robert shrives on April 12, 2018, 07:27:43 pm
From the web page,  durhamtrainsofstanley :
 
To order the N Gauge APT-P click on the model you wish to purchase at the bottom of this page and enter your name and contact details.
When you get to the postage section just click on the store collect and this will reserve that model for you.
Providing we get to the target number you will be notified about any progress and deposits to take this forward.
The real thing will be scanned thanks to The Crewe Heritage Centres help in this project.
Any questions regarding the reserving of the model can be done as well by email to durhamtrainsofstanley@gmail.com
 Tel 01207 232545 ask for Mick for any questions.

DJM-APT-N-0002
5 car set (1 power car 49006) 
370006 & 370007 Black front window
£549.95    48106/48606/49006/48607/48107

DJM-APT-N-0001
6 car set (1 power car 49001)
370001 & 370005 Yellow front window
£599.95  48101/48201/48601/49001/48205/48105

DJM-APT-N-0003
7 car set (1 power 49006 1 dummy 49003 City of Derby)
370006 & 370003 Black front window
£649.95  48106/48606/49006/49003/48603/48203/48103

DJM-APT-N-0004
7 car set  ( 1 power 49004, 1 dummy 49002
370004 & 370002 Yellow front window
£649.95  48104/48604/49004/49002/48602/48202/48102

DJM-APT-N-0006
10 car set (1 working power car 49006 & 1 Dummy 49003 City of Derby)
370006 & 370003 Black front window
£799.95   48106/48206/48406/48606/49006/49003/48603/48403/48203/48103


DJM-APT-N-0007
14 car set (2 working power cars 49005 & 49002)
370005 & 370002  Black front window
£899.95   48105/48205/48405/48305/48505/48605/49005/49002/48602/48502/48302/
               48402/48202/48102

Well  To simplify its £550 for a N gauge version of the Iconic Hornby set.
The £600 option is typical of the test trains before and after the public workings and best short train option with one power vehicle
The 650 version is a 2 power car shorty
The £800 is a 10 car with two power vehicles- albeit one a dummy and this I wonder if a realistic option with build costs
The £900 "full fat" is the option every engineer wanted  but stretched the railway somewhat- doubling the crew costs straight away .

I would say "simples" but is not  but that is the basic choices , I would run the 10 car set with a two vehicle half train, two powers and a 6 car half train as that is how I remember them.  And in that formation I would suggest you order. It is just a bit longer than the Full fat HST formation.   

The exciting vehicle numbers given just show an attempt to cover more bases with the amazing variety of paint games on the driving ends - almost puts Tinsley depot to shame - thinks of 47145 with more embelishments every weekend!!

What you cannot get away from is the £100 per vehicle cost but this reflects the very small build that is going to happen and recover costs given the investors are not intentionally in the charity  business !  Web site does say payments in 4 parts which does reduce the pain but with the risk of losing money if project flounders but I would expect it to be returned if that were the case.  Dave might have a view on that or get the investors behind to make a statement on risks.

The biggest risk (apart from Trump/ Putin asI type) is that folk sit by and dream rather than invest. Please act is all I say.
Robert     
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: SD35 on April 12, 2018, 09:08:32 pm
Thanks for pointing out the staged payments Robert.  I hadn't noticed that before and it has made committing to one palatable.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: ECMLfan on April 14, 2018, 10:39:17 am
I think what would help the project further is introducing a payement plan so you can pay in 10 instances to reduce the burden in the wallet a bit.

I expressed interest for the big fat 14 car full version and hope it will take some time before they charge me as I currently have a heck of a lot on order from Rapido and RevolutioN.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on May 17, 2018, 12:36:05 pm
 The Durham Trains of Stanley/DJModels proposal for an all-singing-all-dancing version has not attracted even 100 expressions of interest. On RMWeb (post #323) Dave Jones is proposing a much simpler version wthout the detailed interior, through wiring and other gizmos. This should pull the price down, and may attract enough punters for it to go into production. The 00 gauge one already has enough orders to proceed possibly because most people want a short train for the larger scale whereas most N interest was in a full length 14 car train. Be interested in whether this slimmed down specification can make the N version follow the 00 one. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdfunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/?p=3166655 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdfunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/?p=3166655)
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 17, 2018, 12:49:55 pm
Thanks Mike, been meaning to update this thread with that info for a while!
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Dr Al on May 19, 2018, 06:21:43 pm
To me, the fundamental problem is that DJM have promised so much and not delivered most of it. J94, clayton, class 23, Q6, have all been promised for years and never reached fruition, that it's somewhat offputting to stump up money for an APT (which I would buy) at this stage.

Overpromised, underdelivered so far, I'm sorry to say.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on May 19, 2018, 08:11:21 pm
I agree about the DJM credibility gap. DtoS were talking about Class 81-85 electrics and some AC powered EMUs, which probably go out with the bathwater if the APT-P in N does not make it.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 19, 2018, 09:02:04 pm
I ought to update the thread title really, there was a bit of a furore on rmweb about who the contract was with and itís all Dave, not really anything to do with DToS. Theyíre purely a hosting platform.

I do agree about the lack of projects from Dave add the 92, 74 and King to the list of things weíve not had!

Iíd still be very tempted by the Ďlightí version thatís being proposed if the price is right. That said the 92 is being stocked by RoS and Hattons at the same price as the crowdfunders can get, so Iím inclined to see if the same happens and Iíll pre-order from them then you donít need to pay upfront!
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NeMo on May 19, 2018, 09:19:31 pm
I agree about the DJM credibility gap.
It would certainly be nice to see DJM finally produce a locomotive in N, but Dave has already delivered a number of locos in OO, so it's not as if these are all empty promises.

DtoS were talking about Class 81-85 electrics and some AC powered EMUs, which probably go out with the bathwater if the APT-P in N does not make it.
That would definitely be a shame. The APT is simply too expensive to interest me given its very limited usefulness, and probably quite a few other modellers out there felt the same way.

A single AC electric locomotive would surely be a lot cheaper, and if one of the longer-lived designs was picked, it'd be a lot more useful, too.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 19, 2018, 09:25:01 pm
The problem of course is that squeezing a mechanism into a smaller N gauge chassis isnít easy. There have been criticisms levelled at his 71 in OO, so would be nice to have something more tangible. Particularly with a 14-car APT being powered by a single motor coach, as is the proposition.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: PaulCheffus on May 19, 2018, 10:01:34 pm
The problem of course is that squeezing a mechanism into a smaller N gauge chassis isnít easy. There have been criticisms levelled at his 71 in OO, so would be nice to have something more tangible. Particularly with a 14-car APT being powered by a single motor coach, as is the proposition.

Hi

This is my concern also.

We havenít seen a motorised N gauge vehicle from DJM and I am not sure a single motor will be able to shift the 14 car APT.

I would like this project to succeed but there are too many unknowns at the moment for me to have any confidence to put money in.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: DJModels/Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on May 20, 2018, 02:24:09 am
I am less concerned about the traction capabilities of a heavy four axle power car with traction tyres on two axles. In 14 car form it would have to shift 13 unpowered vehicles, 18 unpowered bogies. A Kato Eurostar with the same power car configuration comfortably handles 19 unpowered vehicles with 24 unpowered bogies. OK there is the issue of specifying an adequate mimic of the Kato set-up, but there is space enough in an APT-P power car for plenty of weight, and space for decoder and speaker with no requirement for lights.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: railsquid on May 20, 2018, 02:33:36 am
I agree about the DJM credibility gap. DtoS were talking about Class 81-85 electrics and some AC powered EMUs, which probably go out with the bathwater if the APT-P in N does not make it.
And some of us don't give two hoots about the APT but do have cold hard cash ready for classic WCML AC electrics.
Title: Re: DJModels/Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on May 20, 2018, 02:58:31 am
I agree about the DJM credibility gap. DtoS were talking about Class 81-85 electrics and some AC powered EMUs, which probably go out with the bathwater if the APT-P in N does not make it.
And some of us don't give two hoots about the APT but do have cold hard cash ready for classic WCML AC electrics.

Iíd be interested in the AC locos too, but I can just imagine how offering an 85 would prompt the ďif it was one of the others I would have a coupleĒ comments. I doubt we will see any of them or the APT-P from this source, but it is worth a try.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 07:35:30 am
The Kato example is the obvious comparator, except of course it doesnít have DCC or sound provision, both of which Dave has promised.
Title: Re: DJModels/Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NeMo on May 20, 2018, 09:31:34 am
Iíd be interested in the AC locos too, but I can just imagine how offering an 85 would prompt the ďif it was one of the others I would have a coupleĒ comments.
That's inevitable, although the 85 at least was numerous, long-lived, and continued to do important work until around 1990. Of course you could argue a refresh Farish 87 or 90 would be more useful to WCML modellers, the 85 would perhaps be the more interesting choice.

In any event, your entire point is rendered moot by the selection of the APT over any one of dozens of BR overhead electric multiple units that would have been immeasurably more useful -- classes 310 and 313 immediately springing to my mind.

Have we perhaps reached a point where a manufacturer's selection between "what will sell" and "what's modellers actually need" doesn't lead to the same choice?

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 03:19:04 pm
It goes without saying that few people buy what they need to truly recreate the Railway they choose to model, even outside the domain of Ďrule 1í. In reality weíd all need dozens of homogenous MUs for every freight, or Ďexcitingí train. Weíd need 20 plain locos for every Ďspecialí livery.

But thatís no fun, people want things that appeal. The APT is iconic. Like the HST or the Pendolino. Where it falls down over the former is a more limited geographical spread, and over the latter a more limited timeframe. I definitely think Dave will have a harder time getting sales than some other manufacturers too frankly.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NeMo on May 20, 2018, 03:34:32 pm
It goes without saying that few people buy what they need to truly recreate the Railway they choose to model, even outside the domain of Ďrule 1í. In reality weíd all need dozens of homogenous MUs for every freight, or Ďexcitingí train. Weíd need 20 plain locos for every Ďspecialí livery.
Let me offer a counterpoint to the excellent and well-argued point you make above. In straightened times, when modellers have less money to spend, it's workhorses rather than lawn ornaments that the manufacturers should offer.

If someone produced, say, a Class 115 DMU, there'd be A LOT of modellers who'd say, "Well, I really do need one of those to finish off this layout". Whereas an APT is more likely to prompt something along the lines of, "Nice, but what am I going to do with it?"

The APT is iconic.
Iconic of what, is the question! By the only objective measurement that matters, sufficient engineering success that it warranted further development, it was a failure. Of course I know there was a political dimension to the APT story, but when all is said and done, it was a dead end, so far as British railway manufacturing went.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 04:14:34 pm
We obviously model different periods, which makes comparisons a little tough. I wouldnít know a 115 if it ran me over :) but yes, I do see what you mean.

Perhaps symbolic would be a better word than iconic for the APT. Whilst the train itself was a dead end it of course lent the tilting technology to many subsequent trains both domestic and continental. It was the future of rail travel in the UK, for a while!

I violently agree with you though that bread and butter models where people may conceivably buy multiples is probably a more viable prospect than those very expensive Ďiconsí. I do try and seek the mundane too, Iíve got at least twenty 66s and only one Ďspecialí livery.

Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 20, 2018, 04:48:39 pm
I'm always interested in the entertainment value of a model, as I like to exhibit at shows, and a 14 car APT in N, especially if it is a very rare model is a definite rule 1 purchase.

Go back and reread all the doubters comments about the Pendolino before it got produced, now almost completely forgotten, and almost the same comments as the APT is now getting.

I also take the view if i had to make one using Shapeways prints it would cost far more and not be as good.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NeMo on May 20, 2018, 06:34:01 pm
Go back and reread all the doubters comments about the Pendolino before it got produced, now almost completely forgotten, and almost the same comments as the APT is now getting.

Yeah... nope. Not going to wade through literally over 2,500 messages to find the point you're trying to make here!  :goggleeyes:

Any chance of offering up your interpretation of what the issue was for the benefit of those of us as lazy as me?

I don't personally see how the APT (a short-lived, unsuccessful prototype) is closely comparable to the Pendolino (in service for 15+ years, dominate long-distance WCML services). I'll admit to a soft spot for the APT, but I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than a Rule 1, luxury purchase for modellers with deep pockets.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 20, 2018, 07:00:40 pm
Quote
I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than a Rule 1, luxury purchase for modelers with deep pockets.

Up the Revolution (trains)  :D
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 07:09:45 pm
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether itís the model, the prices or the proposer, itís not comparable.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 20, 2018, 07:15:17 pm
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether itís the model, the prices or the proposer, itís not comparable.

If they had not succeeded in getting the numbers for the larger scale model I would say you have a point.  I just don't think the N scale is ready for high budget products, or have layouts to run 14 car trains.

 
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Lindi on May 20, 2018, 07:21:41 pm
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether itís the model, the prices or the proposer, itís not comparable.

If they had not succeeded in getting the numbers for the larger scale model I would say you have a point.  I just don't think the N scale is ready for high budget products, or have layouts to run 14 car trains.

I'm not sure it will ever be ready for high budget products. The 00 community is much larger than the N gauge community and therefore it only needs a very small percentage to want a model for it to be viable (whatever the cost) 
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 07:22:53 pm
Canít comment on value but the high volume of 11-car Pendolinos again suggests thatís not true. Given APT trailers are shorter there canít be much in the overall length. Take OO out of the equation, Pendolinos sold well, APTs havenít.

As Daveís looking at a Ďlow-fatí version which will hopefully tackle the price then weíll see if itís a goer or if the prototype or the proposer are the issue...
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 20, 2018, 07:27:07 pm
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether itís the model, the prices or the proposer, itís not comparable.

If they had not succeeded in getting the numbers for the larger scale model I would say you have a point.  I just don't think the N scale is ready for high budget products, or have layouts to run 14 car trains.

I'm not sure it will ever be ready for high budget products. The 00 community is much larger than the N gauge community and therefore it only needs a very small percentage to want a model for it to be viable (whatever the cost)

I think the budget threshold is about £380 at the moment.  This is based on all singing and dancing sound chipped models, nelevators and Pendolino among others.   So Dave should aim at a running train in line with this price and those who want more should be able to add more bits up to the full train.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 07:32:12 pm
The last batch of Pendolinos, the City of Birmingham ones, were £470 with sound, and sold in 2 days. The market is not all that price sensitive.

I canít see Dave going below £600 for a 14-car unit. That would be a 30% reduction on his original listed price.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 20, 2018, 07:39:19 pm
The last batch of Pendolinos, the City of Birmingham ones, were £470 with sound, and sold in 2 days. The market is not all that price sensitive.

I canít see Dave going below £600 for a 14-car unit. That would be a 30% reduction on his original listed price.

Neither do I but he might do a combination as follows,  (originally posted by me on RMweb)


"If the existing pre orders become combination pack orders to the same train already ordered then then the lesser individual packs can be added as additional order options.

So an existing 14 car order becomes a a+b+c+d+e pack order where a are the ends b is a power car c is coach set 1 d is cach set 2 and e is the second power car, or something like that. "

On this basis an a+b+c combination might come in under £500.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 20, 2018, 07:45:28 pm
Well yes, I imagine a variant will, but most people seem to want 14-car ones, so itís pretty moot.

Heís not yet confirmed what variants heíll be doing or even a vague price for the reduced feature version, reposting your idea doesnít make it reality ;)
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Roy L S on May 20, 2018, 08:08:33 pm
Dave would need to first decide on spec, try to estimate the volume that will sell, then get a quote from the factory once that is decided. I suspect he will want to keep options very simple in the interests of keeping the price realistic.


One other point. I am not sure the Pendolino is a realistic comparison to go by. It has the advantage that it is currently in service and has proved successful, therefore easier to understand why in the end it proved successful. The APT on the other hand wasn't all that successful, only lasted a few years in revenue earning service of any kind so the attraction will largely be (I think) based on nostalgia and I doubt sales will be boosted by many multiple sales.


I wish the project well, not one for me it has to be said, but personally I doubt the numbers will stack up adequately to make it viable in N, even in a stripped back form.

Roy
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on May 20, 2018, 10:08:55 pm
The last batch of Pendolinos, the City of Birmingham ones, were £470 with sound, and sold in 2 days. The market is not all that price sensitive.

I canít see Dave going below £600 for a 14-car unit. That would be a 30% reduction on his original listed price.

I agree that £600 for a full train must be the target, with lower priced part sets which are fine for APT-P as it often ran short formed in one or both halves of the train. But each half set has 4 different trailer car bodies, plus interior differences for the TS/TF/TU, and then there is the power(ed) car to add to the mix.

£600 would be £40 over the RRP for two Farish Class 350s in TransPennine livery which would be 2 powered and 6 unpowered vehicles. Add in the DJModels and DToS profit margins, and I suspect that £600 is going to be unattainable. But it is surely worth a look at what can be achieved.

Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Steven B on May 21, 2018, 09:59:35 am
Iconic of what, is the question! By the only objective measurement that matters, sufficient engineering success that it warranted further development, it was a failure. Of course I know there was a political dimension to the APT story, but when all is said and done, it was a dead end, so far as British railway manufacturing went.

The APT wasn't an engineering failure. The plug got pulled just as the bugs were being ironed out. The engineering work that went into the APT-E (Gas-turbine) and APT-P (OHLE) units was world leading.

The work done on the rail-wheel interaction has directly influenced hight speed passenger trains across the world. The work also lead to improved designs for four-wheel wagons (and the Pacers!) allowing them to run at higher speeds.

The design of the power cars with body mounted drive motors leading to low un-sprung weight was previously untried but ultimately sucessful - the design of the class 91 was a direct copy - these have been runnng for 30 years with one of the class holding the current British rail speed record.

The design of the tilting system was ahead of its time. Whilst the Pendo's technology follows on from the work done on the APT it's actually less advanced - relying on trackside transmitters to tell the train when to tilt and by how much. The APT had an active system that worked out what was needed automatically.

Steven B.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 21, 2018, 10:18:19 am
On RMWeb Kit Spackman (aka "Mr Tilt" - he who developed the system on the APT) said that the tilting mechanism lives on under every Super Voyager. I assumed they used the same system as the Pendolinos, but perhaps not... An even more literal example of the APT influencing future stock.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: red_death on May 21, 2018, 10:48:40 am
Kit is very clear - the Pendolino technology is Fiat technology that was developed independently of the APT projects, however the Super Voyager tilt technology is derived from the APT.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 21, 2018, 10:55:57 am
Was that not having bought the patents from BR though? So yes Pendolinos are using the Fiat technology, but that in turn owes its existence to the APT.
Title: Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NeMo on May 21, 2018, 11:03:09 am
The APT wasn't an engineering failure. The plug got pulled just as the bugs were being ironed out. The engineering work that went into the APT-E (Gas-turbine) and APT-P (OHLE) units was world leading.

Agreed, but you will see that I was very careful in what I wrote: engineering success that warranted further development. So far as BR, and the British government of the time, were concerned, the APT failed to justify further investment.

It's very easy to sit back as armchair railway managers and describe the ways BR went wrong. But the real railway is there to do a certain job within certain political and financial constraints. I think we lose sight of that sometimes, and assume unlimited funds can have be poured into the railway system.

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 21, 2018, 11:09:42 am
Patents if they are not for the original concept have to be for the specific implementing technology.  The concept of tilting in vehicles goes back to the 1920's if not before, and trains in 1941, and if it ever was patented these patents would have lapsed.  I don't believe that Fiat copied the APT specific technology but was developed separately to achieve the same effect and therefore would not infringe the BR patents.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 21, 2018, 11:20:02 am
I'm far from an expert, but my recollection, supported by a lot of content online suggests that Fiat (prior to their acquisition by Alsthom) purchased technology from the APT project, even if they had already developed their own system independently, and this was then used on the Pendolinos (as a family, not just the BR 390s). The concept of tilting in vehicles goes back to the first bicycles or velocipedes or whatever, far earlier than the 1920s.

We really are splitting hairs though, not even sure what the point is.

Dragging us back on topic let's see what Dave comes up with on price for a 'light' version, I personally can't see it being a viable project for a number of reasons:

- price
- low demand
- Dave himself

I hope I'm wrong, and I'll have a 10-car unit if the price is right, but I'm not going to be an early backer because I still want something more tangible from Dave and personally wish he'd actually delivered some more projects before announcing his most ambitious one yet.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: red_death on May 21, 2018, 12:39:19 pm
IIRC Fiat did purchase the APT tech or patents, but they definitely didn't use it on the Pendolinos (as I said they used their own pre-existing system on the Pendolinos).

It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things but I know it winds Kit up when people get it wrong!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on May 21, 2018, 12:46:41 pm
I'm sure you're right Mike, like I say I'm just going off popular wisdom/my recollection. It look like Kit needs to update Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_train) to stop people getting it wrong :)

Quote
In 1982, FIAT acquired patents for the tilting bogie used in the ill-fated British project APT. This and other improvements led to the introduction of the more advanced ETR 450, the first Pendolino to enter regular service in the world.

Edit: I really dislike how smug the smiley face is on here, no smugness intended whatsoever!
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NGS-PO on August 01, 2018, 12:23:15 pm
Revised quotes received for DJMs APT-P proposal. No bells and less whistles:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdfunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/page-14 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdfunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/page-14)
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on August 01, 2018, 03:50:22 pm
Far more tempting at those prices. May well chuck my hat in the ring for a 7-car, once the OO gauge one is significantly closer to fruition, still pretty scared by a lot of the goings on there!
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: woodbury22uk on August 14, 2018, 11:42:10 am
There is now a link on the new DJModels website setting out the revised prices and requesting expressions of interest be emailed to Dave Jones.


http://djmodels.co.uk/product/br-class-370-apt-ngauge/ (http://djmodels.co.uk/product/br-class-370-apt-ngauge/)
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: NGS-PO on September 02, 2018, 02:22:18 pm
Some CAD images of the N Gauge APT-P

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdfunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/?p=3286216 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128477-n-gauge-crowdfunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/?p=3286216)

Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: robert shrives on September 02, 2018, 03:00:05 pm
Hi
Well a bit further forward I guess, just waiting for metal to be cut  if enough folk join in the GA cad looks good the devil will be in the technical fun in articulation and getting a decent power source and quiet motor and gear train - Kato quiet like the 68 ,pendo models and the latest farish mechs . A black hole for money for a bit ... but it is a hobby and well worth the wait for when it comes.

 
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: westie7 on September 02, 2018, 09:33:12 pm
Am I missing a post? Are there formations of what will form the 5,7,10,14 versions?
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: robert shrives on September 02, 2018, 10:01:26 pm
SET2  0002 #370006 +370007    5 car set with black front window      £330.00
SET3  0003 #370006 +370003    7 car set black front window             £395.00
SET4  0004 #370004 +370002    7 car set full yellow front end            £385.00
SET5  0006 #370006 +370003    10 car set black front window           £485.00
SET6  0007 #370005 +370002    14 car set black front window           £550.00

As taken from RM web page as not shown here already , hope it helps.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: westie7 on September 02, 2018, 10:20:49 pm
Cheers, do we know if the 7 & 10 have 1 or 2 power car/dummy
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on September 02, 2018, 10:39:10 pm
The implication has been one powered coach on all of them, but Iím sure the 14-car at least must have two, which would mean 4 decoders, bit of a pain.

Still sorely tempted by a 7 or 10, but want things to settle down a bit with other projects, reluctant to crowdfund frankly.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: westie7 on September 02, 2018, 10:42:45 pm
Fancy a 7 but only if it has pc and 6 pass vehicles
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: njee20 on September 02, 2018, 10:51:57 pm
None of them are half sets, theyíve all got two DTSO(?)s, so Iíd guess a 7 will be one motor coach, and six passenger coaches as you say. Logically a 10 would be two motor cars and 8 passenger vehicles, as it was before IIRC.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: Karhedron on September 03, 2018, 09:09:16 am
According to the original flyer, the 7-car set would feature 2 power cars (1 motorised and 1 dummy).

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_11_2017/post-1144-0-07063300-1511644773.jpg)

I believe the formation is based on this photo of the prototype.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2828/12192686576_96ab903145_b.jpg)

However this info was based on the original spec so I do not know if things have changed since.
Title: Re: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign
Post by: robert shrives on September 03, 2018, 09:56:43 am
Hi
I guess the flyer is now a collectable item !