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General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Bob G on January 11, 2017, 04:55:53 pm

Title: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 11, 2017, 04:55:53 pm
I just saw this on the Bachmann Farish website:

http://www.bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=349 (http://www.bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=349)

"Following our recent 2017 range announcements, we would like to inform you that our 2017 prices will come into effect as of the 1st February. This comes eleven months after our 2016 prices were announced, in a year where our prices were held despite the Post-Brexit Sterling exchange rates falling significantly.

Our price increases for 2017 have been held to a minimum, with 72% of our Branchline products either being held or being reduced in price, with an average of only a 6% rise in price. We have also been able to hold, or reduce our prices on 64% of our Graham Farish products with only a 4% average price increase where absolutely necessary.

We've worked very hard to keep any price increases to an absolute minimum in the current economic climate and to enable us to continue to offer the highest standards of design and quality that you have come to expect from our products".


If the average is 4% price rise, and 64% of the prices are fixed, then the ones that have gone up in price (probably the new models) would average an 11% rise.

I would purchase all you can before 1 Feb, as prices are only going one way.

HTH
Bob
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Elvinley on January 11, 2017, 05:10:35 pm
I am so glad I bought most of my stock when I did. Around the N gauge boom era of upgraded locos and coaches that were coming out thick and fast and before the current high prices kicked in. That was a great time to invest in N gauge. Nowadays I only buy the odd special offer and stock up at events like the Dapol Open day where a Schools needing a chimney glued back on set me back the price of a newly priced Pullman coach.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Nick on January 11, 2017, 05:39:26 pm
If the average is 4% price rise, and 64% of the prices are fixed, then the ones that have gone up in price (probably the new models) would average a 6.25% rise.

Without actually sitting down and crunching numbers, I think it's more like 11 or 12%.

Nearly two-thirds of the prices are fixed, so the increase from the remaining one-third has to account for 4% when averaged across the whole piece. So you'd expect a rise in that one-third of three times the quoted overall average.

(Actual numbers would depend on how prices are distributed between the fixed and increasing models.)

Ouch.

Of course, "with only a 4% average price increase where absolutely necessary." could be read to mean that the price rise on the products where one was absolutely necessary averaged only 4%. Which would nice. Well, nice-ish.

I wonder which is true?
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 11, 2017, 05:48:12 pm
Without actually sitting down and crunching numbers, I think it's more like 11 or 12%.


Yes you are right.
I did the maths wrong - but I do have a stinking cold and cough as my excuse. Post edited to correct the error.
Bob
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Nick on January 11, 2017, 05:51:57 pm
No worries. Hope your cold gets better. I had on ethat decided it was enjoying my company so much it would stick around for the whole of the Holiday season.  :worried:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 11, 2017, 05:59:12 pm
My wife said it was because of my promiscuity on New Years Eve. We went on a P&O "booze cruise" to Hamburg and I was a bit happy by midnight. Seems I was dancing with and kissing a lot of previously unknown women that night.  :angel:

Of course I have no memory of the alleged events.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Nick on January 11, 2017, 06:59:53 pm
My wife said it was because of my promiscuity on New Years Eve. We went on a P&O "booze cruise" to Hamburg and I was a bit happy by midnight. Seems I was dancing with and kissing a lot of previously unknown women that night.  :angel:

Of course I have no memory of the alleged events.
Well, there are worse things you could have caught from promiscuity with unknown women. And your wife wouldn't be talking to you by now....  N gauging would definitely be off the agenda for a while... :no:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: JasonBz on January 11, 2017, 07:00:32 pm
Unless your approach to model train shopping is to  just go around hoovering up anything shiny that takes your fancy, price rises are pretty much only a minor pain.
Any small train plans I have will have a "stock list" and a "maybe nice list" - things not on those never enter my head to just but cos i can.

The biggest price driver has been the Chinese Gvt deciding the workers should get a fair wage for making our trains - Can't really argue on that one much.....
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Nick on January 11, 2017, 07:06:20 pm
Unless your approach to model train shopping is to  just go around hoovering up anything shiny that takes your fancy, price rises are pretty much only a minor pain.
You mean there's another way? This is news!

Shiny good. Monkey see, monkey want....  :D
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: JasonBz on January 11, 2017, 07:18:37 pm
Unless your approach to model train shopping is to  just go around hoovering up anything shiny that takes your fancy, price rises are pretty much only a minor pain.
You mean there's another way? This is news!

Shiny good. Monkey see, monkey want....  :D

This monkey learnt to keep his fingers in his monkey pockets! :D
I dunno why but, with me, it seems to be an N Gauge thing.... I never randomly (much!) buy stuff in other scales....
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Howlin`baz on January 12, 2017, 11:26:41 am
Having not yet seen where the 11/12% will be applied or where the 4% applies, it is hard to see where the justification for 12% comes.   I appreciate that new tooling will be expensive (and we will just have to make up our minds if we actually do need this new model rather than would like one) but if the 12% is added to existing (sometime quite old but quite serviceable models,) where tooling costs have probably already been recovered - I cannot see why these items should be hiked up in price in line with with a totally new model.
We (I at least am old enough) have experienced exceptionally high rice rises at least twice before, and while the initial reserve (not purchasing) last for a while, we all eventually give in and pay up.
Perhaps now is the time when this will not happen?    At approaching 150+ by the time I have chipped it, I will make sure that all I buy will be actually what I need.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: red_death on January 12, 2017, 11:47:48 am
Having not yet seen where the 11/12% will be applied or where the 4% applies, it is hard to see where the justification for 12% comes.   I appreciate that new tooling will be expensive (and we will just have to make up our minds if we actually do need this new model rather than would like one) but if the 12% is added to existing (sometime quite old but quite serviceable models,) where tooling costs have probably already been recovered - I cannot see why these items should be hiked up in price in line with with a totally new model.

Because the driver for many price rises in China is not the cost of tooling but the cost of production.
Old, poorly detailed tooling should be cheap to run as production costs are low.
Tooling from the Farish move to China ie well-detailed tooling may be very expensive to run (despite the tooling being paid off) as the production costs from lots of seperately added detail can be high.
New tooling can be made to factor in that production costs have increased dramatically but there may be a "cost" in terms of finesse and detail.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Karhedron on January 12, 2017, 11:50:30 am
Also, China is still going through its 5-year wage inflation plan meaning that labour costs will continue to rise for a couple more years yet IIRC.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: acko22 on January 12, 2017, 12:18:16 pm
Hi all,

Well I am no economist but there are a few factors that I think have seen the price rises:

1) Value of the Pound (after the last 6 months we have all seen it drop)
2) The Chinese Government implementing its wage increase 4% each year
3) The wage increases in the UK (while they don't have the worlds biggest staff, third parties have staff who they have to pay more and them costs fall on to the customers in this case Bachmann / Farish)
4) More detailing means more cost

The only thing that's very minor is the oil prices been lower at the minute it can run a little to the advantage if it remains so (cheaper for plastics to produce with / shipping), but again companies tend to balance it out through a year so they charge the same and if these costs are lower its saved and if higher the saved cash comes into play.

While this year its a big hit, fingers crossed it will be a case of big hit now then fractional increases for X years if required.

One thing that will be interesting to see is if as spoke about in 2015 companies start to more to India to lower costs again, this could be beneficial or dangerous but time will tell.

Guess we will all have to suck it up sadly it is what it is, and see what the future holds
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: newportnobby on January 12, 2017, 02:01:57 pm

2) The Chinese Government implementing its wage increase 4% each year


If I recall correctly the actual annual percentage wage increase was 20%, Gareth, and I believe we still have 2 years of this to come. I hate to say this (again) but I reckon come 2019/2020 the cost of a large loco will hit the 200 mark full RRP.
We're doomed, Mr. Mainwaring, we're doomed!
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Jerry Howlett on January 12, 2017, 02:02:56 pm

2) The Chinese Government implementing its wage increase 4% each year


If I recall correctly the actual annual percentage wage increase was 20%, Gareth, and I believe we still have 2 years of this to come. I hate to say this (again) but I reckon come 2019/2020 the cost of a large loco will hit the 200 mark full RRP.
We're doomed, Mr. Mainwaring, we're doomed!

Don't Panic Don't Panic....

Sorry
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: acko22 on January 12, 2017, 02:16:48 pm
20% a year ok then bloody hell! I thought it was 20% over 5 years!!
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: newportnobby on January 12, 2017, 02:30:56 pm
When I pre ordered the Castle back in 2013 the price was 110.46. Last I heard it has risen 7.7% to 118.96 but there's no way it will come in at that price :)
Worse is the new Auto trailer which, when I pre ordered it was 18.66 and the latest is 29.71 - an increase of 59.2%!!!!!!! :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry: :veryangry:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Buzzard on January 12, 2017, 02:37:35 pm
What I don't understand is how two companies whose models are manufactured in China can end up charging wildly differing retail prices.

Revolution produced the TEA for 26 or 27 per wagon depending on livery.

Farish produced the Polybulk and charge almost 43 for the unweathered versions.

Both wagons were produced from scratch and have a number of additional parts that need to be added.  In the case of the TEA a lot more parts and more passes through the tampo printing machine.

Before anyone else says it I know that the both companies sell their products in different ways but surely that cannot effect the price?

So is there something a bit rotten in paradise?  Is there an element of profiteering with the excuse of Chinese wages or is it just good old fashioned greed?

Having heard that Farish are updating their TEA I thought great.  I suspect that they too will have an almost eye watering price tag so I won't bother.  I've got a pretty decent rake already which I might stick on top of some ATM bogies and call them job done.

So what do I want off the 2017 list?  Nowt.  All I want off the 2016 list is a few 57/3s in Virgin colours and then I'll spend the rest of my budget elsewhere.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Karhedron on January 12, 2017, 02:53:29 pm
What I don't understand is how two companies whose models are manufactured in China can end up charging wildly differing retail prices.

Revolution produced the TEA for 26 or 27 per wagon depending on livery.

Farish produced the Polybulk and charge almost 43 for the unweathered versions.

I am sure Mike or Ben will correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is the RevolutioN models are not being sold at "retail" price at all. I think they are being sold at cost which means no profit margin (or very at least not much) for the manufacturer and definitely none for the retailer (since they sell directly to the modelers).

Yes RevolutioN have the same development costs as Farish. They may or may not have the same production costs depending on how many parts the finished model requires. They certainly don't have the same overheads as Ben and Mike are doing a lot of that themselves. And as mentioned above, they don't have the same margins.

What you regard as a fair profit margin on a product is a very subjective question, especially when you come to discretionary spending on hobbies.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 12, 2017, 02:58:44 pm

Revolution produced the TEA for 26 or 27 per wagon depending on livery.

Farish produced the Polybulk and charge almost 43 for the unweathered versions.


There is at least one handler - the retailer - to add to the Bachfar Wholesale price to get to the shop price. Revolution have cut out the retailer.

Revolution has to make something on the deal - they don't give their time for free.

So if it costs Bachfar and Revolution 22 to produce a Polybulk/TEA wagon, Revolution make 4/wagon and a shop would make 20/wagon (non-discounted). The shops that discount by 15% or more still make 13.70 per wagon. And they need to, to stay in business.

Now everyone go tell the transition modellers out there to buy the Type B tank in bulk because it is such good value.

Bob
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: railsquid on January 12, 2017, 03:48:29 pm
Now everyone go tell the transition modellers out there to buy the Type B tank in bulk because it is such good value.
Mmmh, curses. I might end up needing some of those.

Hi all,

Well I am no economist but there are a few factors that I think have seen the price rises:

1) Value of the Pound (after the last 6 months we have all seen it drop)
No economist either, but my understanding is that while currencies fluctuate (tell me about it, I live in one country and get paid in the currency of another), companies can factor this into their calculations and to some extent can hedge against it. However if it looks like there will be a fundamental negative shift in a currency's long-term outlook (e.g. due to uncertainty about whatever *it* is means beyond leaving a major trading bloc), this will feed through into consumer prices. Personally my British N gauge purchases have peaked over the last few months, but I doubt that will last.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: red_death on January 12, 2017, 04:34:06 pm
What I don't understand is how two companies whose models are manufactured in China can end up charging wildly differing retail prices.

Revolution produced the TEA for 26 or 27 per wagon depending on livery.

Farish produced the Polybulk and charge almost 43 for the unweathered versions.

Both wagons were produced from scratch and have a number of additional parts that need to be added.  In the case of the TEA a lot more parts and more passes through the tampo printing machine.

Before anyone else says it I know that the both companies sell their products in different ways but surely that cannot effect the price?

So is there something a bit rotten in paradise?  Is there an element of profiteering with the excuse of Chinese wages or is it just good old fashioned greed?

You only have to look at the accounts of Bachmann Europe to see that it isn't greed! No one is getting rich from model railways.  As Matt has pointed out comparing Farish and Revolution is like apples and pears - we sell direct (no retail margin) and have low overheads (as we don't get paid and don't have to employ people). Having said which Bachmann can amortise their tooling costs over much larger run than we can, so there are some benefits for Bachmann!

Even if you could fairly compare Bachmann and Revolution, it would still be difficult to do for two different products and without knowing tooling/production costs.  It is perfectly feasible that the Polybulk has more seperate parts than our TEA - I don't know.

For a small company currency hedging is difficult, even for Bachmann it probably doesn't help too much (as they own their own factory).

Revolution has to make something on the deal - they don't give their time for free.

So if it costs Bachfar and Revolution 22 to produce a Polybulk/TEA wagon, Revolution make 4/wagon and a shop would make 20/wagon (non-discounted). The shops that discount by 15% or more still make 13.70 per wagon. And they need to, to stay in business.

Actually we do give our time for free! We try to include a small markup to hedge against currency fluctuations or changes to production prices (both of which we absorbed for the TEA and which wiped out most of our margin).  The margin we make goes to overheads eg advertising, going to shows and ultimately allows us to take a bit of a punt on the next project eg the TEA surplus allowed us to invest in CAD for the Class B tanks.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 12, 2017, 05:00:12 pm
Well once the locos hit 400, we'll all just have to start buying from CJM 8)

Union Mills also looks better value every year
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: davidinyork on January 12, 2017, 05:26:35 pm
In OO gauge, have a look at the only HST Hornby are producing next year (GWR livery) - makes N gauge look cheap!
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: PennineWagons on January 12, 2017, 05:37:23 pm
Could we be approaching the point where, for whatever reason, it is no longer profitable for a manufacturer to produce N Gauge models at a price which the average modeller (whoever he or she may be) is willing and able to pay? This doesn't sound like good news for the hobby.
Alternatively, could we be getting ever-closer to the stage where the Chinese have finally priced themselves out of the market, and production returns to the UK?
PW
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: CaleyDave on January 12, 2017, 05:47:05 pm
In OO gauge, have a look at the only HST Hornby are producing next year (GWR livery) - makes N gauge look cheap!

This was part of my reasoning for moving to N gauge. Despite the price increases it was still possible to get a better deal, for what I wanted to model at the time, in N than OO.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: davidinyork on January 12, 2017, 05:51:30 pm
Could we be approaching the point where, for whatever reason, it is no longer profitable for a manufacturer to produce N Gauge models at a price which the average modeller (whoever he or she may be) is willing and able to pay?

I don't think it's specific to N gauge - the same also applies to OO. It has to be said that at the moment a lot of OO models with high RRPs are being sold at substantial discounts, so assuming there wasn't a large profit margin to start with they may well be selling them at a loss which is obviously not viable long-term.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Ben A on January 12, 2017, 06:06:29 pm

Revolution has to make something on the deal - they don't give their time for free.

<snipped>

Bob

Hi Bob,

Actually, we do.  I thought everyone realised this! 

What tiny margins we build in (to try to guard against currency fluctuations and pay for show stands, flyers etc) we keep in the business - paying, for example, for the CADs for the Class B in an effort to help the project.

In terms of rising costs, I think there is a disconnect between what people say and what they do.

At their trade day last weekend Bachmann confirmed that Farish sales are up year-on-year despite price rises.  We may not like the increasing prices, but we still buy models and, frankly, long may that continue otherwise the hobby would be in trouble.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Nick on January 12, 2017, 06:12:20 pm
Apologies for long post:

I'm very confused by the information on Chinese wages that is circulating in the model railway world. Reading the magazines last year and posts here, I was under the impression, as others obviously are, that the Chinese Government was imposing substantial wage rises across the board.

That doesn't seem to be the case. This is my understanding:

The 12th five-year plan (2011-2015) targeted a 13% per annum increase in minimum wage. This in fact resulted in a 60% increase in minimum wage over that period. I.e. actual increases seem to have averaged out at just under 10% over that period. The target for household income (as opposed to minimum wage) was 7%. I don't know how that out-turned.

China is now in the mid-upper wage range among East Asian economies, and as a result some companies in industries such as garments, toy and shoe manufacturing have begun transferring operations to lower wage countries such as Bangladesh, Indonesia and Vietnam. (There has for years been an expectation that as globalisation matured, and Chinese wages rose, production would start to shift, first to lower wage East Asian economies, then, as their wages rose, to India, and ultimately to Africa. Obviously not in the next year or two. Or five or ten. Whether the election of a protectionist President in the US will change that trend remains to be seen.)

So, the 13th five-year plan (2016-2020) has abandoned setting a minimum wage target completely and is talking about "perfecting mechanisms" and "reasonably setting levels". Last July, the Chinese Vice Premier for Human Resources  called for wage restraint. Smaller and less frequent wage rises.

Actually setting minimum wages is the responsibility of individual regions, not the Central Government. One province (Guangdong/Canton) has actually already pegged the minimum wage for 2016 & 2017 at 2015 levels.

So why model railway manufacturing has two or more years of structured wage increases to come, I know not.

On the currency front, it is certainly true that companies "hedge" currencies. Which in this context would normally mean taking options to buy (or indeed buying) a certain amount of foreign currency for a defined period in the future at preset rates. The maximum length of such contracts is normally about six months to a year.

Since the referendum, the pound is down about 15% or so against the dollar, a little less against the euro, compared with pre-vote levels, and is unlikely to recover in the near future. So as we enter a world in which hedging contracts taken out pre-vote expire, and new contracts reflect the new world, it is no surprise that imported goods such as food, almost all manufactured items, fuel and specifically toy trains model railway stock  ;) are likely to suffer a fairly hefty price hike, the exact size of which depends on how much of an item's cost base is paid in foreign currency. Hopefully, it will be a one-off hit, although some pundits think the pound may go below parity with the dollar depending how events transpire. Hopefully not...

But I'm still puzzled about these "planned wage increases"...

Sorry again for the long post, and I hope the mods don't think it's too political. It wasn't meant to be.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 12, 2017, 06:33:27 pm

Revolution has to make something on the deal - they don't give their time for free.

<snipped>

Bob

Hi Bob,

Actually, we do.  I thought everyone realised this! 

What tiny margins we build in (to try to guard against currency fluctuations and pay for show stands, flyers etc) we keep in the business - paying, for example, for the CADs for the Class B in an effort to help the project.


Hi Ben (and Mike above)
Actually I meant that you must hedge for some currency fluctuations and also account for the cost of the stands at the shows - they are not cheap!
I guess I was doing a twitter thing and not explaining myself more clearly.
And all the numbers were just plucked out of thin air, to demonstrate the issue rather than anything else.

It is a huge shame that folk don't appreciate that you are spending your time creating these models, particularly the class B tank, and then they are not ordered in the quantity required, given they are at such reasonable prices for the quality.

Best
Bob


 
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: trkilliman on January 12, 2017, 07:12:53 pm
Well, my son in laws parents are from Hong Kong. They are actually there at this time visiting family and checking their property.

Some months ago I told him the story about the rising prices and announced wage rises year on year. He smiled, then laughed, shaking his head and saying "unbelievable"

I couldn't get him to say much more but he was sat there grinning.  We will all form an opinion on these annual price hikes, and the level.

Yes we need to continue making purchases, but as things that are important start to rise in price, as is predicted, more will be have to make choices on what they can realistically spend on model railways.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Elvinley on January 12, 2017, 11:08:35 pm
In an interview in one of the mags Phil Sutton shed some doubt on the reason for price increases really being wage rises in China.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: longbow on January 12, 2017, 11:44:24 pm
Most manufacturers are attributing price increases to the 19% rise in the USD v GBP.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: JasonBz on January 13, 2017, 12:00:06 am
These sort of threads seem to arise all the time, and all the time they never get anywhere.

I am sorry but the brutal truth is you can only spend what you have available, on what you wish to have....and stop just wishing for more shiny toys....Its gets to a point where I wish someone would just say stop it now children!
This is supposed to be a hobby based on making not buying things.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 12:07:01 am
These sort of threads seem to arise all the time, and all the time they never get anywhere.

I am sorry but the brutal truth is you can only spend what you have available, on what you wish to have....and stop just wishing for more shiny toys....Its gets to a point where I wish someone would just say stop it now children!
This is supposed to be a hobby based on making not buying things.

Verry true.......But have you seen the price of glue these days................... >:D

 :D
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: javlinfaw7 on January 13, 2017, 12:29:16 am
I believe that this hobby is more varied than making things.Some of us can cope with kits and minor upgrading and modifications,some ,who I admire greatly ,can take a wreck or bundle of materials and come up with masterpieces others look for the most accurate rolling stock and this can mean buying the most up to date stock .There are many more levels of skills and interests in fact I some times think the only thing we have in common is the trains and a mainly positive attitude
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Howlin`baz on January 13, 2017, 12:45:57 am
Does anybody know what wages typically are in China?   I would guess that they are nowhere near as high as in the West.   When  I was working a popular saying was 10% of nowt is hardly better than nowt.
Doubtless the fall in value of the pound increases the cost of whatever we decided to bring into the UK - so why don`t we move production back here?   We are rapidly becoming a low wage economy (when did you have last a meaningful pay rise?) so bring it back home please.    There must be a saving available in transportation costs to the importers at the very least.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 12:56:48 am
Well paid about $2 per hour for 60 hour weeks.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Steven B on January 13, 2017, 09:04:54 am
Alternatively, could we be getting ever-closer to the stage where the Chinese have finally priced themselves out of the market, and production returns to the UK?


Unlikely. Wage for low paid employees in China are still behind the UK minimum wage. According to the Economist (http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21646180-rising-chinese-wages-will-only-strengthen-asias-hold-manufacturing-tightening-grip) the average factory worker in China earns $27.50 a day (22). The UK minimum wage from April will be 7.50 - over 52.5 for a seven hour day.

If there is a move it will be to else-where in Asia to the likes of Vietnam or Indonesia where pay is still very very low. You'll then have a repeat of the current situation were we enjoy low prices for a couple of years before local living standards start to rise and wages increase accordingly.

We all have a modelling budget. Sadly what would have bought two locos now will get you just one. On the plus side the quality of the models has significantly improved. I'd much rather have one of the current class 37s than two of the old ones (although I'm sticking with my older class 31s!)

It's a shame the British N Gauge market isn't bigger otherwise the approach taken by some of the American producers to provide a set of ready painted parts for the modellers to fit together would be an option.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Thorpe Parva on January 13, 2017, 10:09:42 am
Alternatively, could we be getting ever-closer to the stage where the Chinese have finally priced themselves out of the market, and production returns to the UK?


Unlikely. Wage for low paid employees in China are still behind the UK minimum wage. According to the Economist ([url]http://www.economist.com/news/briefing/21646180-rising-chinese-wages-will-only-strengthen-asias-hold-manufacturing-tightening-grip[/url]) the average factory worker in China earns $27.50 an hour (22). The UK minimum wage from April will be 7.50 - over 52.5 for a seven hour day.

If there is a move it will be to else-where in Asia to the likes of Vietnam or Indonesia where pay is still very very low. You'll then have a repeat of the current situation were we enjoy low prices for a couple of years before local living standards start to rise and wages increase accordingly.

We all have a modelling budget. Sadly what would have bought two locos now will get you just one. On the plus side the quality of the models has significantly improved. I'd much rather have one of the current class 37s than two of the old ones (although I'm sticking with my older class 31s!)

It's a shame the British N Gauge market isn't bigger otherwise the approach taken by some of the American producers to provide a set of ready painted parts for the modellers to fit together would be an option.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.


Should this read $27.50 per day not per hour?
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: newportnobby on January 13, 2017, 10:34:08 am
Yeah - I think that's a typo by Steven.
Let's hope they don't switch production to North Korea as, rather than send stuff by boat, they're likely to send them by rocket :worried:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: red_death on January 13, 2017, 10:37:12 am
I've looked at the reality of bringing back production to the UK and it is incredibly difficult. Even if you can find the right skills and prepared to use them for very small runs (which N gauge models are) then you are still looking at considerably higher wages (which aren't offset by savings or efficiencies of being in the UK).

Rapido also looked at bringing production to N America and reckoned a minimum of 3-5 times the cost of producing in China.

We seem a little fixated on Chinese wages (which essentially came from one statement by Bachmann), in reality it is a combination of factors, but the dominant factor at the moment is post-Brexit vote currency weakness in the GBP.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Carmont on January 13, 2017, 10:46:17 am
Yeah - I think that's a typo by Steven.
Let's hope they don't switch production to North Vietnam as, rather than send stuff by boat, they're likely to send them by rocket :worried:

Assume you mean North Korea? Vietnam has been unified for a wee while now  ;)
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Steven B on January 13, 2017, 12:22:46 pm
Should this read $27.50 per day not per hour?

Yes, my mistake. I've edited my posting to correct the pay rate from per hour to per day. If it has been $22.50 per hour I'd be tempted to move to China and start working in a model railway factory!

Happy modelling.

Steven B.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 12:45:36 pm
Should this read $27.50 per day not per hour?

Yes, my mistake. I've edited my posting to correct the pay rate from per hour to per day. If it has been $22.50 per day I'd be tempted to move to China and start working in a model railway factory!

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

You mean hour  :D
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: newportnobby on January 13, 2017, 01:53:43 pm
Yeah - I think that's a typo by Steven.
Let's hope they don't switch production to North Vietnam as, rather than send stuff by boat, they're likely to send them by rocket :worried:

Assume you mean North Korea? Vietnam has been unified for a wee while now  ;)

 :oopssign: :doh:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Izzy on January 13, 2017, 02:43:48 pm
I think all that could reasonably said about current prices is that those can afford them will, and those that can't, won't. How the rises will affect modelling into the longer term is only something that will become apparent as time goes by, as you might expect.

All I would add is that if they had existed at the level they now are when I returned to modelling in 2010 after a break then in all probability I wouldn't have done so, or it might have been done quite differently, with little or no reliance on RTR, which is how I mainly modelled in the past.

It will be interesting to see where the general direction ends up going, but my personal purchasing of RTR pretty much ended when the price rises first started and I doubt any more will be made. Thankfully I have enough stock for my needs, more than I really need probably. Perhaps this is where changes will occur. Less buying to excess, rather just for immediate needs.

Izzy
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Drakken on January 13, 2017, 02:57:24 pm
@Izzy (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1607)

I totally agree, If you can afford the price rises people will still buy, If you can't could can't simple. I must admit maybe a good thing in the future if prices do fall then maybe people will be more conservative with their money than spend on an impulse.

I do more and more tend to check the prices from different places and possibly wait till a Sale but maybe that's something we all should be doing anyways rather than just shelling out. I do enjoy more now the purchases I make personally it's not a case of there it is I'll have it but I tend to try and find the best deal even if it's just a couple of quid. More gratifying finding the item you want at a cheaper than usual price :beers: 
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Rabbitaway on January 13, 2017, 07:40:57 pm

Hi All

I am so glad I bought most of my stock when I did. Around the N gauge boom era of upgraded locos and coaches that were coming out thick and fast and before the current high prices kicked in. That was a great time to invest in N gauge. Nowadays I only buy the odd special offer and stock up at events like the Dapol Open day where a Schools needing a chimney glued back on set me back the price of a newly priced Pullman coach.

As Elvinley stated I am in the same place

I only buy new when very heavily discounted and even very little second hand now

Prices are just too high and I am not convinced that the reason stands up based on cost increases in China

As a self builder at home I am seeing no increase on China produced products such as cheap power tools and if anything these are being discounted more - just look at Screw Fix and Tool Station offers

I am well stocked up from the days of realistic prices 

 :hmmm:

   
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: PLD on January 13, 2017, 07:51:38 pm
the days of realistic prices 
The days of realistic prices for you budget, however the days of unrealistically low prices for the manufacturers and the assembly line workers...

For me it is unrealistic when I can do equal or better for the same price, either by myself or from other sources...
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Roy L S on January 13, 2017, 08:14:05 pm
Not really fair to compare N Gauge products with things like cheap power tools which are manufactured in massive volumes and I dare day in a less labour intensive way. They don't need fiddly detail added or x passes through the tampo printer. You only have to look at Jason Shron's video on Rapido production in China (see RM Web) to get an idea of just what is involved in producing and assembling these models.

After the initial shock I accept the pricing isn't wrong now, the reality is it was unrealistically and unsustainably cheap before. We are now seeing it where it should be.

Clearly if sales volumes of Farish products continues to rise most are accepting the prices, and as I have often said before compare the price and quality of the very basic Farish A4 from 1999 (89.99) with a highly detailed DCC Ready state of the art Duchess now 18 years later (164.99) and ask which is the better value either in relative or real terms..

Roy
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: davidinyork on January 13, 2017, 10:07:29 pm
Not really fair to compare N Gauge products with things like cheap power tools which are manufactured in massive volumes and I dare day in a less labour intensive way.

They are also generally not designed / made to last! If making a comparison with power tools, something like Makita or DeWalt is probably a better equivalent so far as there is one - i.e. made to high standards and expected to last a decent length of time.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Portpatrick on January 13, 2017, 10:45:03 pm
compare the price and quality of the very basic Farish A4 from 1999 (89.99) with a highly detailed DCC Ready state of the art Duchess now 18 years later (164.99) and ask which is the better value either in relative or real terms..

Roy

To get a complete comparison I guess the original duchess would also have been c 90 in 1999?  I cannot find my RPI tables to prove or disprove the real change in prices.

On some other price comparison post around a year ago I compared my first Minitrix Britannia purchased in late 1976 with the current Dapol offering.  I looked at the then price c13 I recall, with the Dapol price last year.  Compared to the movement in RPI the comparison was then close in real terms - maybe not so with recent increases.  There is no question that the Dapol model is a vastly superior offering in terms of detail, accuracy etc.  Whether it is so robust (one of my other Brits at c 30 years old is still in use as a Clan, and no bits have broken off with handling), and whether Dapol/Farish consistently run straight from the box after designated running in as my Minitrix did, is another set of questions which have also been aired to exhaustion.  My own Dapol Brit has been free of mechanical defect in the 5 years I have had it,  I am happy to report.  Like most current steam locos it must be handled with kid gloves.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Ian Bowden on January 13, 2017, 10:52:30 pm
These sort of threads seem to arise all the time, and all the time they never get anywhere.

I am sorry but the brutal truth is you can only spend what you have available, on what you wish to have....and stop just wishing for more shiny toys....Its gets to a point where I wish someone would just say stop it now children!
This is supposed to be a hobby based on making not buying things.

Verry true.......But have you seen the price of glue these days................... >:D

 :D
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Activated-Liquid-Plastic-Bonding-Self-Adhesive/dp/B01GHWBJMC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484347871&sr=8-1&keywords=jml+glue (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Activated-Liquid-Plastic-Bonding-Self-Adhesive/dp/B01GHWBJMC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1484347871&sr=8-1&keywords=jml+glue) or 9.99 from JML
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 10:59:47 pm
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Super-Power-5Second-Fix-Glue-UV-Light-Repair-Tool-Glue-Welding-Plastic-And-Metal/401138976070?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40860%26meid%3Dbe70873ffefa4541ac1dba2023b031d7%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D112143466156 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Super-Power-5Second-Fix-Glue-UV-Light-Repair-Tool-Glue-Welding-Plastic-And-Metal/401138976070?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D888007%26algo%3DDISC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D40860%26meid%3Dbe70873ffefa4541ac1dba2023b031d7%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D112143466156)

1.95 on eBay from the original manufacturer in china but it takes 20 days to get here.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 18, 2017, 08:49:33 pm
Volume is indeed everything in plastic moulding and the UK volumes are tiny compared to say the US models. Hence the US ones are much cheaper, and often use a lot more metal.

I've only bought one loco this last year, and from Union Mills. I think I bought two things on special offer the year before. From what I hear I am far from alone. A lot of modellers are buying a lot lot less and that may itself be a problem.

OO can be cheaper than N - the Railroad range starts at 20 for little 0-4-0 locos and includes some really quite decent coaches at under 20 each.

My guess is we'll see more intelligent design of models perhaps with some trade offs people don't like in order to keep the prices in check. Bachmann appear to be using mechanical assembly for some stuff already looking at how it is built. Will they outsource - it might be harder than you think. The technology is also in China, the expertise is in China, and they are a Chinese company. In fact I could see other manufacturers moving far more easily both to new technologies as 3D print improves and new locations.

It's really hard to do models in the UK, the expertise is not generally available, the people who do all the other related jobs aren't here. There is a whole infrastructure around mould making, machine making, training, machine repair, parts and far more you have to move.

Even getting small plastic parts moulded in the UK is hard, there are not many folks left.

Alan
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: DELETED on January 19, 2017, 07:31:05 pm
I think I've voiced up often enough I don't agree with the way the hobby is going price-wise so no point in saying all thepoints again.  It is always a bit of a hidden pleasure to see more and more folk voicing up about costs though.

For me I've watched my income plummet and the cost of most other things go up.  Coupled to I now work in my home town so expenditure every day of the month rather than than working away on a rotation for 6 months of the year*.  My disposable cash more than halved with the salary drop, then halved again.

* A luxury I admit.


I don't agree with such large price hikes so quickly -full stop.  I also have to set a personal limit on a single item which I appreciate may be well below others.

It really annoys me though that I used to be able to progressively build-up a collection but now I see more and more very limited runs.  I can't really build-up a rake of much now, and not paying 80-120% of new prices for something second hand.

It must be hard for the main manufacturers to keep a balance.  I admire the crowdfunders doing what they do unfortunately though it's not for me.

I think it's all down to what you want from the product.  For me I'm not interested in ultra fancy DCC aimed locomotives when a) the reliability is no better (worse in some cases) -and servicing is more difficult and b) I can't see the extra detail at normal viewing distance anyway.  And maybe my own-set principles are too tight when say I do see something I'm trying to get but the price has shot-up anything up to 50% from the last one I bought not so long ago.  So I think in 2016 apart from a couple of peco wagon kits I only bought a 108 DMU (split from set) and a class 60 (buffers special), both listed probably 50% less than they should have been -that was my total of new purchases.  My second hand purchases were minimum because I wasn't paying 80%+ of RRP*.

*case in-hand Hattons are / recently listed the same class 60 special from buffers at 70 (used) when new ones are still for sale from Buffers at 50.

Rock and a hard place maybe, but we have to keep voicing up.  No good when I see comments in the magazines (relating to N gauge) -"we've never had it so good, and not paying enough already", we need more articles addressing the opposite feeling to redress the balance.

Rich
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: MKP on January 20, 2017, 01:26:15 am
Some locos have jumped up over the past 3 years:

64xx 35% increase from 2013 price list to 2016

Class 3F (Jinty) 35% increase

castle just short of 8% increase

Princess coronation 10% increase

Merchant Navy 10% increase

but I think rolling stock is where it appears to show that Farish were under pricing these items:

MK1 coach 43% increase from 2013

30 Ton Bogie Bolster 67% increase

cattle wagon 70% increase

Bulk Grain Bogie Hopper  72% increase

7 Plank Wagon 75.5% increase

5 plank wagon 86% increase

Intermodal Bogie Wagons  103% increase

PCA Metalair Bulk Powder Wagon 123% increase
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: PLD on January 20, 2017, 07:55:47 am
Bachmann did admit that previously many prices bore no relation to production costs (so some items were potentially being sold at a loss). The variation in the percentage increase is a good indication - the biggest increases are on items which are complex to assemble, or were ultra cheap previously...
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Sprintex on January 20, 2017, 09:07:04 am
Rock and a hard place maybe, but we have to keep voicing up.

Rich

Why though? Nothing is going to change. Things cost a certain amount to make, whether that's down to Chinese labour costs, exchange rates, transport costs, position of the stars, whatever. Companies need to make a profit on top of that, that IS why they exist in the first place, and I doubt in the case of N gauge that's a big profit, maybe bigger margin for 00? So cost price plus profit margin plus retailer's markup, and I don't see lots of rich model shop owners around either, with so many closing down I guess it's quite the opposite. How do you expect things to be significantly cheaper without the temporary relief from moving production to a poorer country (again!)? What good is "voicing up" going to do when there's little or no room for movement?

In a country where the people moan it's too rainy, moan it's too hot, moan it's too cold, moan it's too windy . . . you get the idea. Just another reason to moan about something you can't change for the sake of moaning, as the British are so good at and well known for. Toy trains are a luxury, if it's too expensive for your income level, don't buy it, simple. I'm in exactly that position at the moment, there's a couple of items I'd like but can't justify after taking a pay-cut to be in a better job with regard to hours and potential advancement. Tough, that's the way it is, no sense whinging about it. I could cry about how Nissan GT-Rs are "overpriced" and "too expensive" just because I can't afford one, doesn't mean Nissan should slash their prices because obviously there are plenty of people out there that CAN afford one. That's life I'm afraid, and moaning ain't gonna change it.


Paul
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: red_death on January 20, 2017, 11:30:37 am
As someone who sets prices on models (and knows how little margin there is) I sympathise with RST's point, but what I don't see is a solution.

DCC provision costs exactly nothing (sorry may be a few pence for the socket).

Detail can cost something when it means more separate parts, but the reality is that there is a significant part of the N gauge market that wants such detail. Assembly costs are becoming an increasingly large component of model costs (as opposed to historically where tooling costs dominated) so detail does cost to a point but it isn't so much of an additional cost that it would make much of a difference to leave off (and risk alienating folks who do want detail).

Bright ideas always welcome!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: 47033 on January 20, 2017, 12:13:17 pm
Interesting thread and while I haven't read through it all, i'd just like to say that the Chinese pay raises may be a contributing factor. However I haven't noticed any other things that I buy that are manufactured in China go up each year like I have with these Farish models. I buy car parts that are made in China and my wife used to work for a company that sourced them from China and the increases over the last few years have been negligible.

This is just an observation on my part.

Jamie

 
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: MKP on January 20, 2017, 12:52:15 pm
Does the china manufacturing model really work for UK model railways? if you were making 1 million coat hangers, then yes great, but the actual numbers being produced from Farish and Dapol is pretty low, America and Japan (Tomix) have much larger N gauge markets and therefore it makes more sense, Would be an interesting study to find out what percentage of the price is made up of distribution costs, import duty etc etc
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: red_death on January 20, 2017, 01:03:15 pm
Does the china manufacturing model really work for UK model railways?

Would be an interesting study to find out what percentage of the price is made up of distribution costs, import duty etc etc

I've already answered the first question (either earlier in this thread or on another thread).  The simple answer is yes, until you can find the skills, machinery and reasonably low wages elsewhere.  Given that people are complaining about high prices well you would easily triple prices if you tried to bring it back to the UK (even if you could find the skills and companies willing to produce such low numbers).

Distribution - I assume you mean shipping/transport: peanuts compared to the total cost.
Import duty - zero.
VAT 20%
Then any retail margin (variable) / manufacturer's margin.
Production costs
Tooling costs

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: JasonBz on January 20, 2017, 01:24:19 pm
As we go round and round in circles the one point remains clear.

In the early 21st Century model trains were far too cheap and some people got the "collecting habit".
Some years later, ie now, when they can no longer afford to buy everything and anything they "need", they are upset at the manufacturers for raising prices - Almost as if they devilishly lured the buyer into a trap with Loss Leaders 10 years ago.......
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: NeMo on January 20, 2017, 02:13:59 pm
I've already answered the first question (either earlier in this thread or on another thread).  The simple answer is yes, until you can find the skills, machinery and reasonably low wages elsewhere.

This is a crucial point. My rail engineering friend makes this point regularly when people ask "Why don't they just make the locos or multiple units in the UK instead of abroad?"

In that hiatus between BR being prohibited from buying new rolling stock and the privatised companies ordering rolling stock, you had several years where the British rail builders had virtually no business. Many closed down. End result was that those workers went into other industries, or retired, and by the time the market improved, there really wasn't anybody here (apart from Brush) who could still make whole locomotives.

It's the same thing with the models. All very well saying Farish should move back to Poole or wherever, and on paper, it might work out cheaper -- but only once the machinery is purchased and the staff trained, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

On the up side, there are some great UK kit manufacturers out there. I think people should stop worrying about the fact they're going to have to buy fewer ready to run models and instead spend some of their limited money on kits. I, for one, really enjoy looking at layouts with traction and rolling stock that isn't "as seen in the catalogue".

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: PaulCheffus on January 20, 2017, 02:29:48 pm
On the up side, there are some great UK kit manufacturers out there. I think people should stop worrying about the fact they're going to have to buy fewer ready to run models and instead spend some of their limited money on kits. I, for one, really enjoy looking at layouts with traction and rolling stock that isn't "as seen in the catalogue".
Cheers, NeMo

Hi

Then you get the I can't build / paint kits to the same standard as my RTR stock so I won't bother.

I doubt very few people when starting modelling could manage to do this but with time and practice you can. Most of my kit built stock will stand quite happily against the RTR stuff in fact my scratchbuilt telescopic steel hoods were once mistaken for the Dapol model. I started scratchbuilding around the age of sixteen and I am still learning new things in my fifties.

It all comes down to practice and being able to bin something that isn't quite right rather than continuing with it in the hope it will sort itself out. Best advice I can give is start with the simple kits followed by making simple modifications to them to make slightly different variants. This can then be followed by more complicated kits and finally scratchbuilding.

The best quote I can give is "Do something every day that scares you"

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Portpatrick on January 20, 2017, 03:00:31 pm
Very  discerning points on kit building and, dare I say, hacking and bashing of kits and RTR.  I have done quite a lot of this, to varying degrees,  over the years, for locos coaches and wagons.  And derived a lot of fun and satisfaction in building them.  Though the fact my hand tremor is worse these day makes me more wary of anything too complex.  But I am certainly still up for the challenge.

I am less sure of the amount out there these days.  NGS wagon kits do seem to be coming back on stream for those of us who are NGS members.  The price has always been reasonable.  But for coaches the Etched Pixels/Ultima range are far from cheap themselves.  Are Mike Howarth's printed paper coach sides still around?  And when it come to locos, most of what is still relatively available need Poole style Farish chassis.  Yes those of us who have a number of these and can spare the bodies, can certainly make use of them.  But otherwise a matter of EBay and its range of prices.  Is anyone making loco kits for modern chassis and bear in mind you will have to pay the price for the complete loco to get that chassis.  I have a vague recollection that Dapol may have issued separate chassis but if so I have never come across them.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 20, 2017, 03:27:38 pm
I have started making some of the older kits again - see  here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36060.msg422697#msg422697 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=36060.msg422697#msg422697) for my latest efforts on a Langley E2.

The interesting thing is these relatively crude kits are not cheap any more - they are about the same price as 3D printed items which arguably are to better scale and detail.
The kits often require surgery to chassis. Now I am happy to hack an old Farish 94xx pannier/Jinty/GP tank chassis about, but they can cost anything between 25-50 on EBay or from Hattons, Rails or KJB secondhand. The low profile wheels are always the more expensive chassis.

But would I want to hack about a detailed 3-MT prairie chassis, for example.  Unlikely, at 90 a shot.

Best
Bob
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Jimbo on January 20, 2017, 03:44:31 pm
Great debate this!  :thumbsup:, I don't think the 'high' prices are going to change anytime soon but I do think it (for me at least!) will be a case of make the best of what i CAN afford (either modifying, detailing or leaving as is) and what i've already got, not the same for everyone though of course, personally I have yet to have a go at modifying or kit bashing anything but it seems that might be the route I'll be exploring some of the time.
I suppose I might have the occasional bit of good fortune to pick something up within my budget, all well and good if so  ;).
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Portpatrick on January 20, 2017, 04:13:00 pm
Your E2 looks good Bob
Adaptable kit.   My Caley small 044T of the long lived 55124 starts with one of these (passable).  As does a Caley 060 tender engine - yes really.  Though it is very crude, even more so than the Pickersgill 440 from a Compound.  In fact initially the was a Lankey , but my interest moved from north Wales to Scotland, so a little reshaping made it a Caley.

You are so right about being wary of hacking expensive modern chassis.  I was looking at a service sheet for that 3MT wondering if the back end could be removed and the result fitted under a cut down and modified Langley B1 to create the Scottish version of the K2.  A loco I accept will not appear in my lifetime!  I have a body in the doofer box.  But perhaps not!  I have more than one Poole based 264T in reserve whose chassis might do the honours.

Of course taking such a cavalier approach is not for everyone.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: exmouthcraig on January 20, 2017, 04:47:53 pm
Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

Moderator Comment Political reference removed - against Code of Conduct

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 20, 2017, 05:51:32 pm
Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months

Moderator Comment Politics is a banned subject - see Code of Conduct
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Jimbo on January 20, 2017, 06:49:51 pm
Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months

Politics is a banned subject - see Code of Conduct

Might be Area 51!?  :uneasy:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 20, 2017, 07:30:22 pm
Been reading this over the last few days and yes there is NO getting away from price increases but are we all to blame?

Craving more and more detail on everything has pushed us away from 'crude kits' which can be adapted to be made perfectly acceptable from a distance. I was under the impression modelling was personal opinion. Plenty of things we are happy with as long as no one else sees them. It's all a brilliant dream to have everything perfect but is that likely??

The consolation we take from the increases is that the production or delivery of new models has all but come to a dribble so instead of being able to buy 20 items a year we buy the 4 or 5 that get delivered and wait and wait and wait for the rest to come off the list so spreading the cost over 10 years instead of 12 months

Politics is a banned subject - see Code of Conduct

I do love it when the entire script of a contributor is moderated out, apart from the quote. Feels like a good debate to me  :greatwork:
Bob
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: newportnobby on January 20, 2017, 08:21:37 pm
That'll teach Snowwolflair to be serious on this forum :laugh:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 20, 2017, 09:53:01 pm
That'll teach Snowwolflair to be serious on this forum :laugh:

Actually I was being very sarcastic, but that's obviously not allowed either  :D

Possibly the moderator thought I was saying something they thought could happen. :goggleeyes:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 20, 2017, 09:53:49 pm
Now you are all wondering what I said. :)
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: exmouthcraig on January 20, 2017, 10:10:50 pm
My comment wasn't even suggesting anything horrific it is a proven point that will affect us all in EVERY part of our lives not just modelling and it gets removed yet there's plenty of threads whinging about councils attitudes to bins in public places and one massive one tonight about a certain president that are allowed to run. EVERY single post I had made even a joking line about a subject gets removed by one moderator and that could be perceived by myself as a personal attempt to block me from putting anything on here.

The unfortunate thing is that EVERY part of our lives is as a result of political decisions, some not even made by us and as a consequence it appears in many conversations.

That is our life in a democracy instead of a dictatorship 
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: NeMo on January 20, 2017, 10:16:42 pm
My comment wasn't even suggesting anything horrific it is a proven point that will affect us all in EVERY part of our lives not just modelling and it gets removed yet there's plenty of threads whinging about councils attitudes to bins in public places and one massive one tonight about a certain president that are allowed to run.
Indeed, but one man's lunatic is another man's political icon. So the easiest approach here is for the moderators to simply exclude politics across the board. Sometimes there's an inconsistency, to be sure, but whenever I've come across that I've rolled my eyes and moved on. There's certainly no obvious political bias, and that's a good thing.

EVERY single post I had made even a joking line about a subject gets removed by one moderator and that could be perceived by myself as a personal attempt to block me from putting anything on here.
I'd suggest not taking it as a personal anything if I were you! Being a moderator on a public forum is a thankless task, and very difficult to get right all the time. I doubt anyone would seriously want to clamp down on any one person's beliefs on a forum about toy trains!

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: dannyboy on January 20, 2017, 10:18:31 pm
Now you are all wondering what I said. :)

Yes, yes and yes ...............  ???
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: PaulCheffus on January 20, 2017, 10:22:35 pm
Hi

You all agreed to the terms of the forum when you joined so why are you now complaining when your posts that do not comply with those terms are removed?

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: DELETED on January 20, 2017, 11:07:28 pm
Much as I like this forum and pay to keep it going I have always said if it was that good I think Farish and Dapol would have a noted presence so I don't think it's that serious at the end of the day.  Crowdfunding guys keep going -the rest of us will argue and keep going round forever on the rest of it I think :goggleeyes: 
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Bob G on January 20, 2017, 11:08:03 pm
Now you are all wondering what I said. :)

I missed the original quote. Now I feel like I should have gone to Woodstock rather than Knebworth to get the real vibe from the event.

Bob (Dylan)
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 20, 2017, 11:53:31 pm
Much as I like this forum and pay to keep it going I have always said if it was that good I think Farish and Dapol would have a noted presence so I don't think it's that serious at the end of the day.  Crowdfunding guys keep going -the rest of us will argue and keep going round forever on the rest of it I think :goggleeyes:

I'm sure they are here, and frankly would you admit to working for Dapol or Farish on this forum. :no:
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: NinOz on January 21, 2017, 07:51:49 am
Hi

You all agreed to the terms of the forum when you joined so why are you now complaining when your posts that do not comply with those terms are removed?

Cheers

Paul
Perhaps threads about price increases should be added to banned list as they mostly seem to give rise to endless repetitions of speculation about Bachmann and Dapol business plans and finances from armchair experts and portents by crystal-ball gazers.

Reminds me of the poem "Said Hanrahan"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Said_Hanrahan

    "It's dry, all right," said young O'Neil,
    With which astute remark
    He squatted down upon his heel
    And chewed a piece of bark.

    And so around the chorus ran
    "It's keepin' dry, no doubt."
    "We'll all be rooned," said Hanrahan,
    "Before the year is out.
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: newportnobby on January 21, 2017, 01:09:27 pm
That'll teach Snowwolflair to be serious on this forum :laugh:

Actually I was being very sarcastic, but that's obviously not allowed either  :D

Possibly the moderator thought I was saying something they thought could happen. :goggleeyes:

I was with you and was being 'ironic'
Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: Rabbitaway on January 21, 2017, 02:02:50 pm
Hi

We seem to agree that prices are high for whatever reason

With a bit of thought and looking at special offers and other manufacturers apart from GF economic modeling can still be done with some compromises

Peco Wagons are cheap from some retailers and the kits even cheaper and not difficult for the novice to build and can be interesting different by using the likes of Robbies Rolling Stock transfers

Some Dapol Wagons and coaches are still sensible prices

Certain models are poor sellers and are heavily discounted although these are reducing in number

Sales at shows where particularly Dapol sell at significant discount some of their slower selling stock

This is my approach to keep costs down


Title: Re: Bachmann Farish 2017 Price Increases
Post by: JayM481 on January 22, 2017, 03:30:54 am
I think prices are great. A year ago 100 was $200 Canadian dollars. Now it's $165!  :D :P