N Gauge Forum

General Category => N Gauge Discussion => Topic started by: Tank on September 10, 2016, 09:49:06 am

Title: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Tank on September 10, 2016, 09:49:06 am
Revolution Trains, the new company that uses crowd funding principles to produce niche train models, has listened to modellers on the N Gauge Forum clamouring for 1950s and 60s era products by offering the much-requested Class B fuel tanker.

Hundreds of these tankers were built from the mid 1950s and they remained in service until the 1990s.

The Class B tank was designed for carrying heavier oils and had a shorter barrel than the Class A which was built to carry the same weight of lighter petrol fuel.  If the Class B model is successful and reaches its minimum order threshold then we will also produce the Class A tanker.

The wagons were developed by wagon builder Charles Roberts Ltd in co-operation with Esso, but were also used by Regent/Texaco, Mobil/Charrington, the CEGB and in plain colours for many other fuel flows.

They were in widespread use from the mid 1950s and are equally at home behind 9F or a Black 5 steam locomotives as behind a Brush Type 4 or pairs of BRCW Type 3s.

At this year's International N Gauge Show at Leamington visitors were able to inspect the first CADs of the model, which is already under development.

The model is being designed by former Farish engineer Colin Allbright, who also created the Ultima brand before joining Bachmann following its take over of Graham Farish in 2000 and will be manufactured in China and feature numerous separate detail parts, body-mounted NEM kinematic close-couplers and photo-etched catwalk details.

The prototype wagons featured two different suspension types and both are being offered.  The models will be available singly at £19.50 each or in triple packs (£58.50 each) with different running numbers.

The liveries available will be:

1)  Black with Esso branding on original suspension.


2)  Red with Mobil/Charrington branding on original suspension


3)  Plain black on original suspension


4)  Black with Regent branding on revised suspension


5)  Black with Texaco branding on revised suspension


6)  United Molasses brown/blue on revised suspension


(Note: The triple pack will feature one vehicle on original suspension and in prototypically accurate all-brown livery.)

These models represent a first for the NGF - being a direct result of the campaign led by Scott Stitchell and Bob Gregory who made a compelling case for them and Mike and I at Revolution are hoping that this will be the first example of a successful crowd funded pet-project inspired directly by supporters.

We had planned to focus on the modern day scene, after the failure of our class 21/9 locomotive this time last year, but we were persuaded to look again at the traditionally dominant steam/diesel transition era and offer its supporters a chance to step forward.

Our crowd-funding methodology is still in its early years, and we are still learning, but in less than two years we have gone from raising interest in a Class 390 Pendolino to have an approval-ready working sample, and in less than 18 months from announcing TEA tanker models to having them en route to the UK ready for delivery to our customers.

We anticipate more new product announcements over the coming weeks, and while we are waiting until we have actually started delivering models before announcing more, we will be happy to chat to visitors about our plans, and listen to any suggestions, going forward.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on September 10, 2016, 10:17:19 am
 :claphappy:

Oh dear (or words to that effect) having just ordered the carsflats l was going to be a good boy and not order any more rolling stock this year.

Now I'll have to find out did they run in mixed rakes of different companies and or types of suspension.

Where do I order some?

We'll done guys!

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: DJM Dave on September 10, 2016, 10:44:25 am
I want at least 3 of these wagons, so where can i sign up?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: n1ghtmare on September 10, 2016, 12:23:12 pm
Help!!!!! cant see the images only get the following;

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Tank on September 10, 2016, 12:25:54 pm
Help!!!!! cant see the images only get the following;

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

Some others said the same, and I changed a setting.  Try pressing the Ctrl and F5 button at the same time to refresh your browser please. :-\
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: n1ghtmare on September 10, 2016, 12:44:36 pm
Sorry, no joy.  Have also tried in a different browser but get the same result
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on September 10, 2016, 01:22:38 pm
I see pics ok on my iPad, if that helps.

One each of the black livery triple packs, please! I guess once TINGS is over this will appear on revolutiontrains.com and we'll be able to 'pre-order' there.

Great news for us 1970s modellers. Many thanks to Scott and Bob for kicking off the thread a while ago. And thanks to Mike and Ben for taking it up. N gauge is just getting better all the time!  My wallet is breathing into a paper bag now, having just signed up for carflats too...
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 10, 2016, 02:29:37 pm

Hello all,

Just stopped for a breather but as ever a busy show.

The actual order pages for the Class B tankers (and the hi-cube containers) will go up as soon as Mike can get around to it - hopefully early next week.

Thanks for all the support.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on September 11, 2016, 04:53:24 pm
Really delighted at this anouncement.  After Bob & Scott's persuasive pitch earlier in the year I'd been hoping one of the manufacturers would take the plunge and am very pleased it's Revolution. 

Will place an order / expression of interest in the Esso tanks when the website's ready.  If there's sufficient interest in this version would you consider additional triple packs with different running numbers?

Really hope this proves to be a first (and overdue) transition-era winner for you. 

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on September 11, 2016, 06:02:18 pm
Thanks for giving us transition modellers something to take you up on. I wish you success.
The numerous separate detail parts concerns me slightly but that's a physical thing.
@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94)
@Tank (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)

The pics 4 and 5 look to be transposed to me
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 11, 2016, 07:45:43 pm
:claphappy:

Oh dear (or words to that effect) having just ordered the carsflats l was going to be a good boy and not order any more rolling stock this year.

Now I'll have to find out did they run in mixed rakes of different companies and or types of suspension.

Where do I order some?

We'll done guys!

Ray

Ray

Everyone seems surprised that Revolution are doing these - not least of whom me, cos they didn't tell me, but at least its getting done and I wish the project a huge success.

The wagons can be run either in block trains or as a small handful in mixed freights. However there are some specific uses worth noting.

The ESSO ones were well known for the Fawley run and others - block trains of either Class A or Class B tanks, many tens of wagons long. I will personally be funding this project by ordering a shedload of ESSO branded ones for haulage by Eastleigh based 9Fs or a couple of green 33s.

The UM wagons were also on block trains from Liverpool or Hull to Stirling.

I don't think I've ever seen them in mixed rakes from different petroleum companies, as they would have operated from refinery to distribution points, and the refineries were owned by individual companies.

The unbranded tanks look like departmental waste oil tanks which could be run singly, dating from 1983-93, but the Esso ones lost their discs and ESSO Petroleum branding, but retained the double stars in the 1970s. Had better talk with Ben and Mike to see which version this is intended to be.

The Farish 13t high sided steel opens, 377-951, make excellent barrier wagons, BTW, but barrier wagons were not obligatory on class B workings, only on Class A block tanker trains, as the fuel in Class A tanks is more volatile.

HTH
Bob


Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on September 11, 2016, 08:16:10 pm
Thanks Bob.

When in the 70s did the Esso branding get removed? Hopefully not all before 1975.

Looks like I'll be ordering a few triple packs of the Esso ones, then. Ray's suggestion of different triple packs with alternative running numbers would be a great way to go... but I guess otherwise I'll just be renumbering them.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 11, 2016, 08:36:23 pm

Everyone seems surprised that Revolution are doing these - not least of whom me, cos they didn't tell me, but at least its getting done and I wish the project a huge success.
Bob

Bob

I thought it was good that the N Gauge Forum, Scott and you get a specific mention in the announcement with credit for the research and prsentation of information. Without that input there would be no project. I am in for the UM wagons with a wayside loading point fed by road tanker as often happened. Not all the sugar factories had space for beet wagons, limestone wagons and molasses tanks to be handled when production was in full swing. This even applied at some of the bigger factories like Peterborough, and continued after the beet campaign was over, and well into the late spring.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on September 11, 2016, 09:30:34 pm
Bob G, thanks very much for all that info and your & Scotts efforts in persuading RevolutioN to take the plunge!

I had hoped to run  a mixed rake  of Esso & Charrington (Only because I like the Red livery) tankers but it looks like I will be running a couple of shortish rakes unless (or until) the Class A comes along.

So I'll keep details of those barrier wagons in case, but wonder if they were retained at the end of Class A trains once Guards moved into the rear diesel cab, any idea?

Thanks again

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 11, 2016, 09:45:02 pm
Hi folks

The project and ordering pages will be put up on our website when I get home Monday or Tuesday - straight off train from leamington and now currently on Eurostar to Brussels!

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 11, 2016, 10:43:44 pm
Ah the life of the rich and famous  ;)
I got to go to Belfast for 4 hours last week.
Not even an overnighter.

Looked out for you and Ben but you were either busy or not on the stand when I was meandering.

its going to be a great little wagon.

Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 11, 2016, 10:53:06 pm
Thanks Bob.

When in the 70s did the Esso branding get removed? Hopefully not all before 1975.

Looks like I'll be ordering a few triple packs of the Esso ones, then. Ray's suggestion of different triple packs with alternative running numbers would be a great way to go... but I guess otherwise I'll just be renumbering them.

Mark

I might persuade Ben and Mike to do the ESSO unbranded version as well. The challenge with the branding removal is that Paul Bartlett's fantastic website has the original (as first built) and then the unbranded in the late 1970s, but I have not yet found anything late 60s/early 70s to say when the plates were removed. Fantastic that the model will have separate metal plates, as the weathering usually shows the missing ellipse a different tone of dirt than the main body of the tank.

Now that this is a goer I shall out a bit more thought into livery research, to make sure we get them right.

Best
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 11, 2016, 11:02:00 pm

Hi Bob,

Thanks to you and Scott it's certainly got a fighting chance, but of course it will only be a goer if enough people sign up for some...

Having said that, I am pretty confident this model will cross the threshold as reaction at the show was very positive indeed.

Going forward, we won't do any more variants for at least two years to allow customers who support this project some time to recover!

Where the company plates were removed it appears that small bolt heads remain visible, and if we do unbranded at some time our first thought are that this would be best replicated by small tampo printed dots.

Although the minimum order for any one livery is around 300 units, if it's just tampo printing different numbers on the same basic livery then the quantities come down, and if enough of one type are ordered we should certainly be able to offer additional numbers.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 11, 2016, 11:49:11 pm
Everyone seems surprised that Revolution are doing these - not least of whom me, cos they didn't tell me, but at least its getting done and I wish the project a huge success.

Hi Bob

Sorry - that my fault, we had agreed that I would tip you the wink that we were going to do them and I just plain failed to drop you a line in amongst everything else going on.  Fair to say we've kept this pretty close to our chest but we are already well advanced with the initial work.

Anyway glad you are pleased that they are being done - it is absolutely fair to say that they wouldn't have happened without your and Scott's enthusiasm and work. The reaction to the announcement at TINGS has been great.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bealman on September 12, 2016, 06:29:48 am
This is great news for transition modellers like myself. My congratulations to all involved in the project.  :thumbsup:

George
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 12, 2016, 09:14:31 am

Where the company plates were removed it appears that small bolt heads remain visible, and if we do unbranded at some time our first thought are that this would be best replicated by small tampo printed dots.


Those that like relief on their models could drill the dots and add brass wire - Peco track pins with the missing heads would do! Would also encourage prototypical operation and discourage handling from the hand in the sky!

Bob

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on September 12, 2016, 05:18:54 pm
Great news and fantastic choice.

A couple of the early black triple packs will certainly have my commitment as soon as the ordering pages are up and running.

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 13, 2016, 07:36:22 am
Excellent news, and the second proposal, in which I've had a hand in the pitch (although I don't think I did that much to be fair), that has caught the eye of RevolutioN. Here's hoping this one is more successful than the last!

Thanks to everyone for their support both during the initial pitch/polling and following the announcement.

For my own modelling, I'll be looking at 18 Esso vehicles. If I can find the funds, and following my research turning up the same block flow to Stirling as Bob mentioned, I might be looking at a similar number of United Molasses tanks. But, that's a big "might".

@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) can you confirm the pricing for the triple pack is correct,  i.e. no discount over the single price?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 13, 2016, 08:50:34 am
Hi Scott

Yes the triple packs are the correct price - there is no saving for us in doing triples (they are actually slightly more expensive to produce as they require additional packaging!). The triples just allow us an easy way to add some variety in numbers (and in some packs livery).

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 13, 2016, 08:55:29 am
Hi Scott

Yes the triple packs are the correct price - there is no saving for us in doing triples (they are actually slightly more expensive to produce as they require additional packaging!). The triples just allow us an easy way to add some variety in numbers (and in some packs livery).

Cheers Mike

Thanks Mike, just checking in case there had been a typo. Fully understand the above.

Scott
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Zwilnik on September 13, 2016, 09:36:43 pm
Having seen the TEAs at the show and immediately regretting not getting in on the action as they look stunning, I think I'll be registering for a triple pack of the Charingtons red ones.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Chetcombe on September 14, 2016, 12:09:04 am
Right era for me, so count me in for 3 assorted triple packs
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 14, 2016, 10:14:07 am
Four Your Interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s)

@36M55s I'm pretty sure the first five or so tanks behind the class 33 are 35T B vehicles. There are some Class As in the train as well, along with what look like the evolutionary monobloc wagons at the rear. But, regardless of wagon, they are all Esso. Based on the 33, it's probably a Fawley flow.

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on September 14, 2016, 03:09:20 pm
3 x Texaco branded triple packs for me when they're on the RevolutioN site :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 15, 2016, 08:30:49 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s)

@36M55s I'm pretty sure the first five or so tanks behind the class 33 are 35T B vehicles. There are some Class As in the train as well, along with what look like the evolutionary monobloc wagons at the rear. But, regardless of wagon, they are all Esso. Based on the 33, it's probably a Fawley flow.

Hi Scott
That's a great film. Yes they are 35t B vehicles, and when the wagon solebar turns orange, those are the class A wagons. Note the barrier wagon at the class A end of the train. It is these little observational gems that really make it for me. As the 33 is in blue it is likely to be a pre-TOPs livery, given the claimed date of the filming, and all 33/0s went blue/FYE in 1969/70.
All the class A seem to be monobloc 45t TTAs, rather than 35t wagons, as the diameter of the tank is larger and so is slung partially below the solebar. ESSO favoured one central ladder down the end of the tank, rather than the classic twin ladder Peco and Farish representations (ESSO only operated one batch of the twin ladder TTA tank as produced by Farish). However, its great to see the ESSO badging retained on all the wagons. One of the things we need to do is figure out when ESSO removed the oval discs.

Best
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bealman on September 15, 2016, 08:44:14 am
All very cool  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 15, 2016, 09:20:11 am
In related/unrelated news, I note that Fawley has now closed.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 15, 2016, 09:43:35 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s)

@36M55s I'm pretty sure the first five or so tanks behind the class 33 are 35T B vehicles. There are some Class As in the train as well, along with what look like the evolutionary monobloc wagons at the rear. But, regardless of wagon, they are all Esso. Based on the 33, it's probably a Fawley flow.

Even better when you watch further on.
At 55.15 there is a 33/0 at Eastleigh with a down train of class A tanks, some 1960s vintage TTAs, and then some class Bs at the rear. It passes an up train of mostly class Bs.
At 55.51 you can see a single black tank missing the ESSO PETROLEUM PRODUCTS LIMITED white wording.

And at 33.38, Carflats in a wagonload freight working.

Very nice video indeed.
Bob










Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 15, 2016, 09:47:27 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zThRW4up1c&t=105s)

@36M55s I'm pretty sure the first five or so tanks behind the class 33 are 35T B vehicles. There are some Class As in the train as well, along with what look like the evolutionary monobloc wagons at the rear. But, regardless of wagon, they are all Esso. Based on the 33, it's probably a Fawley flow.

Even better when you watch further on.
At 55.15 there is a 33/0 at Eastleigh with a down train of class A tanks, some 1960s vintage TTAs, and then some class Bs at the rear. It passes an up train of mostly class Bs.
At 55.51 you can see a single black tank missing the ESSO PETROLEUM PRODUCTS LIMITED white wording.

And at 33.38, Carflats in a wagonload freight working.

Very nice video indeed.
Bob

Interesting that the one missing the wording appears to be brand new.

Re the carflats, I posted that on the carflats thread, but well spotted.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Dalek on September 15, 2016, 09:27:31 pm
I can't see the images either, can somebody point me to them another way please ?

Craig
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 15, 2016, 10:10:25 pm
Hi folks

I'm slowly adding the project page and product page to our website: http://www.revolutiontrains.com/projects/35t-class-b-tank-wagon/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/projects/35t-class-b-tank-wagon/)

If possible we'd like to come up with some sample rakes and possibly a map showing example flows so if you have any information on sample rakes or flows then could you post it and I will collate it.

Thanks

Mike

PS please note that there seems to be an intermittent fault with our payment system (some people have managed to pay by card OK, but others have been getting error messages).  We are investigating but for the moment we can only apologise and suggest checking that javascript is not being blocked or try a different browser.

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on September 15, 2016, 11:53:06 pm
Managed to place an order for 2 triple packs after switching from IPad to laptop.

Problem seemed to be that having entered credit card details there was no where marked "press here to pay" or words to that effect. Clicked on a blank square and it seems to have worked.

Now when will we here about the Class A?

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 16, 2016, 12:08:06 am
Thanks Ray.

The Class A tanks will mean tooling a new barrel, but can use the same chassis.  Let's see how we get on with the Class B and if we can get that completed reasonably quickly then we will look at the Class A tooling.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on September 16, 2016, 01:27:38 pm
Just ordered a couple of Esso Triple packs. Will hopefully order more in due course, but the wallet's taking a late summer pounding with the Farish 4MT, a couple of Dapol 33s  and the NGS carflats.  Ordering was nice and easy - clicking on the blank white box at the bottom right of the payment box worked for me too.

All the best with this project - I really hope it comes to fruition, although I'd be amazed if it doesn't.  Have you announced a deadline for ordering - i.e. a date by which we'll know for certain if it will go ahead?

Mark 
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 16, 2016, 01:35:42 pm

Hi Mark,

With the 321 and the 21/9 we gave it three months, but TBH it was pretty clear by the end of the first month that while the 321 was doing OK and the 21/9 was tanking.

We will probably give the Class B's until after Warley, so if it's struggling we can blitz the place with flyers etc, but the sooner people sign up the sooner we can move into serious production, and also of course move onto the Class A which is very much in our plans.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on September 16, 2016, 01:43:31 pm
Just ordered an ESSO Triple Pack. I use Firefox and also had to click on a blank white box.

If an additional differently numbered Esso triple pack is made available then I will order this also. Will also order an Esso triple pack of Class A tanks if this project goes ahead.

David
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Only Me on September 16, 2016, 01:45:28 pm
theres a style sheet issue where the text is set to the same colour as the back ground of the box...
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Zwilnik on September 16, 2016, 03:10:51 pm
Had to wait until I was on my Mac as it didn't even have the blank button on mobile, but ordered a triple pack of the Charingtons as my first Revolution order :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: simong on September 16, 2016, 10:02:20 pm
Can someone please point me in the direction of of where the era for each wagon is noted.  Thanks
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 16, 2016, 10:20:16 pm
Successfully ordered the United Molasses triple set by clicking on the blank box.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 16, 2016, 10:39:33 pm
Can someone please point me in the direction of of where the era for each wagon is noted.  Thanks

Hi Simon,

I'm not sure about eras.  As far as I know the Esso ones were introduced first, in 1956/7, then the Mobil Charrington a couple of years later.

The plain black ones seem to have been around fairly early too.

The Regent ones with the new suspension were built in 1960, but I think they were rebranded to Texaco from around 1968.

I think United Molasses started operating these wagons in the mid 1960s.

I don't know when the company boards began to be removed from the wagons.

Perhaps others can fill in the gaps?

Cheers

Ben A.


Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on September 16, 2016, 11:17:14 pm
I'm a bit stuck on choosing... I like the Esso branding, but for some reason I'm drawn to the unbranded ones too.

I guess I need to know when the Esso brand ran till and when in the 70s the Esso branding was removed. (I'm modelling 1975).

Would the Esso and the unbranded have run in the same block?

And if I order 5 triple packs, what are the chances each pack can have different numbers?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on September 17, 2016, 05:48:07 am

The Regent ones with the new suspension were built in 1960, but I think they were rebranded to Texaco from around 1968.


Whoa! That puts my thinking of 3 Texaco triple packs out of the window as it will be too late for my era.
Can anyone confirm the eras for each version? I know Ben has had a good stab at it but it looks like I may have to go down the 'Esso' brand route :hmmm:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 17, 2016, 08:14:34 am
Hi there,

This is where a little knowledge becomes a dangerous thing!

Please don't take what I say on these wagons as definitive and some dates may be wrong!

As far as the Regent/Texaco thing goes, Wikipedia says that Texaco took control of Regent in 1956, and while Regent petrol stations were rebranded Texaco from 1965, the Regent brand "remained in use" until 1968/9.

But were the railway wagons among the first or last things to be rebranded?  Of course, if you're layout is set in 1959, before the Regent wagons were built, it's all academic.

Then again, it's your train set, as they say!

Cheers

Ben A.

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 17, 2016, 08:55:33 am
According to sources I have, Regent purchased 150 of these wagons throughout 1960-1961. They were for use from Welsh and Avonmouth storage depots. Apparently, Regent was broken up in 1967 and all the remaining wagons passed to Texaco where they were later renumbered TEX 47761-900 (this is a TOPS dnumber?). I don't have the documents to hand, but I should be able to get further info on monday/tuesday.

@newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264) , I think you would need to go for the Regent ones for your layout.

Re the ESSO de-embleming ( I know it's not a word), 1974/5 seems to be the magic date for that process, where it coincided with TOPS. But that is just deduction, I have nothing that explicitly quotes that date.

Re the UM wagons, All evidence points to them being taken on by UM at around 1970. Previously they had operated unfitted wagons. They were on hire from Tiger Rail. All indications and suggestions are that the blue ends coincided with TOPS being implemented , but again that's not actually explicitly stated on anything I have seen.

I hope this helps.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on September 17, 2016, 09:56:20 am
Ben/Mike

Maybe it's too early to answer but will the running numbers of the Esso Triple Pack wagons all be different from that of the single Esso wagon? If so, how do I add the single wagon to my existing triple pack order without incurring another delivery charge?

David
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 17, 2016, 10:24:18 am
Hi David,

The triple pack wagons will all have different numbers to the single models.  This is the same as we did with the TEA tankers.

Because the numbers on these models are significantly more prominent than they tend to be on modern wagons (larger, and usually white-on-black) we will certainly be looking to offer additional packs of the most popular sets with different numbers.

When you sign up or order models, you will automatically go onto our newsletter list, and will receive updates direct from us which will include any news on additional variant packs.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on September 17, 2016, 12:33:01 pm

Hi David,

The triple pack wagons will all have different numbers to the single models.  This is the same as we did with the TEA tankers.

Because the numbers on these models are significantly more prominent than they tend to be on modern wagons (larger, and usually white-on-black) we will certainly be looking to offer additional packs of the most popular sets with different numbers.

When you sign up or order models, you will automatically go onto our newsletter list, and will received updates direct from us which will include any news on additional variant packs.

cheers

Ben A.


Thanks Ben.

I believe that there was a regular flow from Fawley to Leicester Abbey Lane Sidings via Banbury, Woodford and the GC Main Line. There is a wonderful colour photo in "Rabbits & Runners" (published by the HMRS) showing an 8F hauling the empties back to Fawley in April 1965. The train appears to consist of 4 x Class A Tanks, 1 xClass B Tank, 2 x Open Wagons followed by the Brake Van.

There is another photo with Class 27 haulage to be found here...

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/gcrleicester/html/trains.html (http://www.vintagecalculators.com/gcrleicester/html/trains.html)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on September 17, 2016, 01:06:17 pm
@ScottyStitch (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1851)

Wonderful piece of knowledge or sleuthing. Thanks very much for that.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on September 17, 2016, 02:06:46 pm
Thanks for the info. I've decided to go for a rake of 17... 10 Esso (3 triples and a single) and 7 unbranded (2 triples and a single), in the hope that these triples get different run numbers.

My third Revolution purschase aleady  :o :D Can't wait to have the TEAs soon  8) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: bluedepot on September 17, 2016, 07:29:13 pm
nice link - cheers for sharing.

i enjoyed looking at the pictures of the great central - coalville/burton line chord and the scrap yards.  i sometimes walk round this area on a lunch break and along the track bed which is a cycle path now. it looked much more interesting in the old days!   i wonder if the red brick building next to the newish lidl was in railway usage or a wagon repair shop or anything?  looks like it could have been.

anyway sorry for diversion from topic.  class b tank not really my era but good luck with it.



tim
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 17, 2016, 07:35:32 pm
@ScottyStitch ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1851[/url])

Wonderful piece of knowledge or sleuthing. Thanks very much for that.


After checking my sources, yes Texaco branding from 1967 and then branding removed by 1975.

Best

Scott
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on September 17, 2016, 10:16:59 pm
@ScottyStitch ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1851[/url])

Wonderful piece of knowledge or sleuthing. Thanks very much for that.


After checking my sources, yes Texaco branding from 1967 and then branding removed by 1975.

Best

Scott


Beginning or end of 1975?  :( ???
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 18, 2016, 10:09:20 am
@ScottyStitch ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1851[/url])

Wonderful piece of knowledge or sleuthing. Thanks very much for that.


After checking my sources, yes Texaco branding from 1967 and then branding removed by 1975.

Best

Scott


Beginning or end of 1975?  :( ???


 :sorrysign: I don't know  :(....If it were my model railway I would take it to mean that by the end of 1975 all were de-emblemined......

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 18, 2016, 10:11:16 am
For those with a preserved railway model railway, the following might be of interest

https://www.flickr.com/photos/38593315@N02/4518048036/in/photolist-pQw6xk-7HEaAu-7e33Az-8BwhjN-7HRwYw-6ygCAj-ePcNjF-6sYtSW-72D1z7-7HEatS-9pYWr2-9n8e5r-7e6Qw9-7HRxrd-9pYVgF-7e2M9P-6VXH2X-ePcJtz-oePAta-6VXDWR-8LRqf2-7TfbgW-6ZXNss-6ycu44-6C8k6W-vNYhRK-vHgzz7-oy2NcT-KCRcjg-787i8z-8LUtmo-8Kyr3A-6ycwvP-7e2YhF-9kCCEg-6sWPb7-9kCCwX-6sWHm9-9pYYra-9q2ZCG-uvfJnb-EKXu2S-GUndCL-wWuvXL-wWBQjF-wheYM8-zaWofs-wh5Xo5-tMpYhA-K9CDWw (https://www.flickr.com/photos/38593315@N02/4518048036/in/photolist-pQw6xk-7HEaAu-7e33Az-8BwhjN-7HRwYw-6ygCAj-ePcNjF-6sYtSW-72D1z7-7HEatS-9pYWr2-9n8e5r-7e6Qw9-7HRxrd-9pYVgF-7e2M9P-6VXH2X-ePcJtz-oePAta-6VXDWR-8LRqf2-7TfbgW-6ZXNss-6ycu44-6C8k6W-vNYhRK-vHgzz7-oy2NcT-KCRcjg-787i8z-8LUtmo-8Kyr3A-6ycwvP-7e2YhF-9kCCEg-6sWPb7-9kCCwX-6sWHm9-9pYYra-9q2ZCG-uvfJnb-EKXu2S-GUndCL-wWuvXL-wWBQjF-wheYM8-zaWofs-wh5Xo5-tMpYhA-K9CDWw)

#prototypeforeverything
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on September 18, 2016, 01:35:58 pm
I have confirmation of Esso (and other names) debranding in 1975-76, from Robert Hendry's British Railway Goods Wagons in Colour, page 56.
There is a lovely photo of a (class A) 35t tank ex works with the Esso mounting plate bolts clearly visible.

In terms of flows, the classic Trainload flow is Fawley to Bromford Bridge, as this was the heaviest train on UK metals in the 1960s, comprising 54 x 35t wagons plus barrier wagons if class A tanks were leading, and a Queen Mary brake at the back. This was predominantly 9F haulage in steam days, and from 1963 2x 33/0 in green, no yellow panels.
This was routed via Eastleigh and then the ex-GWR route from Winchester to Didcot in steam days. It could also travel in early diesel days via Southall, Feltham or Didcot before changing motive power, before 33s were allowed to roam further off their southern metals in the mid 60s.

Shorter Fawley trains would have had 1x 33/0 or sometimes 1x 33/1 after 1968. Such flows for class B Esso tanks under class 33 power are confirmed as Fawley to Tiverton Jcn and Plymouth Friary (via Eastleigh, Salisbury and Westbury), and Fawley to Waddon Marsh, reversing at Wimbledon (so far only class A tanks confirmed).

I have a longer list of Fawley routes for 1976 but are not confirmed for 35t tanks of either class A or class B. This includes Hilsea, Langley, Longport, Waddon Marsh, Oxford, Bristol, Old Oak, Willesden, Salfords, Cardiff, Ripple Lane, Hertford East.

There was also an Esso refinery at Tynemouth. I have only proof of 35t class A tanks at that site as yet, and no route knowledge as yet either :)

However, these tanks were also conveyed in Wagonload trains, and so the routing of a small number of wagons could be to any of the multitude of small oil terminals which used to be seen across the UK. It then becomes modellers licence whether you are running Trainload or Wagonload flows.

HTH
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: NeMo on September 18, 2016, 02:17:49 pm
Shorter Fawley trains would have had 1x 33/0 or sometimes 1x 33/1 after 1968. Such flows for class B Esso tanks under class 33 power are confirmed as Fawley to Tiverton Jcn and Plymouth Friary (via Eastleigh, Salisbury and Westbury), and Fawley to Waddon Marsh, reversing at Wimbledon (so far only class A tanks confirmed).

Worth mentioning that occasional ex-Fawley trains were handled by 'Westerns' as well. So a good train for those who prefer hydraulic transmissions!

Cheers, NeMo
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 18, 2016, 05:31:55 pm
@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94)  @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246)

Can you guys confirm the length of these wagons. I have a buffer to buffer length of 27ft 9in = 333 in

333/148 = 2.25in.

Is that what you have?

21 Esso and three Regent examples ordered.

I was going to order more of the Regent wagons, but I think I will hold the funds for a rake of class As.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: crepello on September 19, 2016, 05:20:48 pm
I've found a couple of nice pics of Class 33s (NYP) on Esso tankers in 1964 and 1965. They're in Rail Portfolios no.6 (Jane's).
The first is D6549 with a Feltham-bound train approaching Southampton Central; it is showing headcode 4A and is hauling black 35T Class B, grey TTA, black 35T, grey TTA, black 35T, 2xgrey TTA and then some more black 35T tanks as the photo becomes rather unclear.
The second pic shows D6536 (headcode 8C) leading D6545 north of Eastleigh with the empties from Bromford Bridge; it has 2x grey 35T Class A, grey TTA, grey 35T,black 35T,grey TTA, 2x grey 35T and then several grey TTAs before the consist becomes unclear.
The first shot has persuaded me to order the Esso Class Bs and the Class As become an intriguing prospect!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 19, 2016, 08:51:35 pm
@Ben A ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94[/url])  @red_death ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246[/url])

Can you guys confirm the length of these wagons. I have a buffer to buffer length of 27ft 9in = 333 in

333/148 = 2.25in.

Is that what you have?


Hi Scott

Not quite - from the drawings we have combined with our own measurements we have wheelbase 15 ft, total chassis length to outer headstocks as being 23 ft 8.5" (i.e. 284.5') plus 2 x 20" for the buffers i.e. 284.5 + 40 = 324.5" (or 2.19 inches in 1:148).

Do you think that is too short?

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on September 19, 2016, 10:19:34 pm
Just looking at the BR Diagram Book - not always 100% correct. Based on the vehicle numbers in the heading post there seems to be a consistent 7226mm (284.5 inches) over headstocks but with two different buffer projections - 520mm/20.5in, and 620mm/24.4in.

44222 (Esso) built to diagram TS030F has 620mm buffers, and 47791 (Texaco) built to diagram TS025A/TS021A has 520mm buffers.

I think the buffer difference explains the difference between the 333in and 324.5in figures.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on September 20, 2016, 11:31:25 am
we have wheelbase 15 ft, total chassis length to outer headstocks as being 23 ft 8.5" (i.e. 284.5')

284.5ft ???
Those triple packs are going to take some packaging! :P
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on September 25, 2016, 12:17:27 pm
Went on to the RevolutioN website yesterday, two triple packs of the early Esso branded variants duly ordered. Ordering was nice and easy - no problem at all.

If the Type As should happen I will doubtless be back for a few of those too.

I do hope that this is going well so far, I would really like to see my belief that there is a market for suitable crowd funded transition period projects confirmed.

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 25, 2016, 12:28:24 pm
@Ben A ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94[/url])  @red_death ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246[/url])

Can you guys confirm the length of these wagons. I have a buffer to buffer length of 27ft 9in = 333 in

333/148 = 2.25in.

Is that what you have?


Hi Scott

Not quite - from the drawings we have combined with our own measurements we have wheelbase 15 ft, total chassis length to outer headstocks as being 23 ft 8.5" (i.e. 284.5') plus 2 x 20" for the buffers i.e. 284.5 + 40 = 324.5" (or 2.19 inches in 1:148).

Do you think that is too short?

Cheers, Mike


Hi Mike,

Apologies for the delay in replying.

My dimensions come from the ESSO wagon drawings in R Tourret's "Petroleum Rail Tank Wagons of Britain".

In essence I was just thinking out loud to confirm my sums for the maximum number of wagons would fit in a 6ft storage yard siding were correct. The upshot is we are on the same page.

0.06 of an inch "difference" is certainly more than good enough for me  :)

Thanks for confirming

Scott
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: robert shrives on September 25, 2016, 01:44:04 pm
Hi
Likewise ordered some lastnight -painless except for wallet complaints!  triple plain and one esso on order.
Thanks to all involved.

Robert
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: mickster04 on September 29, 2016, 01:10:17 am
SO do we have a list of era per livery as has been provided for the other models? (carflats for example)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 30, 2016, 10:03:40 am
Hi Mickster,

I have been reluctant to give eras because I am not sure we have anything definitive and I don't have personal knowledge of most of this era.

In their overall terms, the wagons just qualify for era 4 but are more era 5 (which starts 1957) to era 8 (finishes 1994)

For individual liveries, and allowing a generous mabased on information in the posts here and what I have in various books and allowing a generous margin for error, this would be my starting point:

Original suspension:

Esso Black: Era 5-7
Plain black: Era 5-8
Mobil Charrington:  Era 5-?

Revised suspension:

Regent: Era 5-6
Texaco:  Era 6-8
United Molasses:  Era 6-8.

If anyone disagrees vehemently with any of the above, or can give us an idea of when the Mobil/Charrington variant went out of use, feel free to amend!

For reference, the Era definitions I am working to are those on the Bachmann website:

Era 4 1948-56, Era 5 1957-66, Era 6 1967-71, Era 7 1971-82, Era 8 1982-1994.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 30, 2016, 01:52:29 pm
@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94)

Hi Ben,

It could be argued that the first wagons taken on charge would have to be era 5.

The prototypes were built "by 1957" after design work "during 1955/6" so technically the production vehicles would sneak into Era 5?

That is not to say that those with foggy rule 1 tendencies (no bad thing) couldn't equally sneak them into the tail end of Era 4 if they felt so inclined.





Quotations from text in R Tourret's tomb mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on September 30, 2016, 03:23:38 pm
@Ben A ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94[/url])

Hi Ben,

It could be argued that the first wagons taken on charge would have to be era 5.


Hi Scott,

I have changed the original post.  This is why I was reluctant to add eras to the thread - I was sure I would get it wrong!

Maybe I'll go to the bottom of the Class (B)!!

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 30, 2016, 04:37:03 pm
Hi Mickster,

I have been reluctant to give eras because I am not sure we have anything definitive and I don't have personal knowledge of most of this era.

In their overall terms, the wagons just qualify for era 4 but are more era 5 (which starts 1957) to era 8 (finishes 1994)

For individual liveries, and allowing a generous mabased on information in the posts here and what I have in various books and allowing a generous margin for error, this would be my starting point:

Original suspension:

Esso Black: Era 5-7
Plain black: Era 5-8
Mobil Charrington:  Era 5-?

Revised suspension:

Regent: Era 5-6
Texaco:  Era 6-8
United Molasses:  Era 6-8.

If anyone disagrees vehemently with any of the above, or can give us an idea of when the Mobil/Charrington variant went out of use, feel free to amend!

For reference, the Era definitions I am working to are those on the Bachmann website:

Era 4 1948-56, Era 5 1957-66, Era 6 1967-71, Era 7 1971-82, Era 8 1982-1994.

Cheers

Ben A.


To be fair @Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94), the list otherwise agrees with what I've been able to dig up.

Further to Ben's good info above, to narrow some dates down further...:

ESSO were the "launch customer" for these wagons so took the first batch after the 1957 prototype. The emblem was removed during 1975 from all of ESSO's tank wagons.

Most of the fleet survived into the 1980's, coded TSV with TOPS. The serial number remained the same, but TOPS applied a 4 in front of it. They were worked from Fawley and Milford Haven refineries and Bowling and Tynemouth coastal terminals.

Many were withdrawn by 1984 and all were out of ESSO service by 1990. Some were scrapped whilst others went to other operators, such as chemical companies and British Rail.

1958 - 3301 to 3569
1958 - 3570 to 3839
1958 - 3840 to 3863
1958 - 3864 to 3963
1959 - 4601 to 4774
1961 - 3964 to 3999
1961 - 4139 to 4188
1962 - 4189 to 4202
1962 - 4203 to 4252

The above numbers are ESSO serial numbers.

Regent purchased their batches of 150 (batch 1 = 100 and batch 2 = 50) vehicles in 1960/1. They were rebranded Texaco from 1967.

303 to 402
403 to 452

They worked from storage depots in Avonmouth and South Wales.

Unfortunately, I too have no date for Mobil/Mobil-Charington, but Tourrett states that in 1963 "Mobil signed a ten year contract with BR for large 'block train' operations, running mostly to the West Midlands and East Anglia, either to depots such as Charringtons at Bedworth, Cambridge and Norwich, or to large commercial customers" from it's [refinery at Coryton, Essex.] It is therefore reasonable to assume that these tankers were in place by then. I have drawn a blank as to when they were withdrawn, but the Mobil name (in respect of the petroleum and heavy oil products) was still extant until about 1999 when Mobil was taken over by Esso. (Previously, in 1996, they had merged with BP).


The United Molasses vehicles entered service from 1970. Prior to that they used a fleet of unfitted wagons.

The Texaco tankers would have been operational from 1967 into 1990, but I'm almost certain the branding plates were removed by the end of 1975. 140 of the regent wagons passed to Texaco, the remainder of the build being withdrawn. Under TOPS they were coded TSF and again 4 was prefixed to the serial (47761 to 47900). All were withdrawn by 1990.


I don't claim to be an expert, but this is the information I've been able to find and it seems to make sense. It's all certainly plausible. I'm happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable. Hope it helps.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on September 30, 2016, 04:48:21 pm
A little note on the two stars on these wagons:

As part of the 1955 modernisation plan, BR decreed that long wheelbase tank wagons, fitted with automatic brakes, were suitable for high speed running, up to 60mph. To distinguish these tankers in that respect, two white stars were applied to the barrel, together with a smaller metal plate on the solebar.

Interestingly, three stars was reserved for tankers that were intended for passenger trains, such as milk tankers. No petroleum wagons carried three stars but apparently some foodstuff oil tankers did.

Prior to the two stars, from 1913, there was a single star applied to some tank wagons and this denoted a "fast traffic" vehicle. This meant the heady speed of 35mph, but they were not allowed to go more than 40 miles between stops for inspection purposes. In addition, individual wagons had to travel at least 100miles in slow trains (from new) before being allowed to travel in fast goods trains.

Hope that is of interest, and apologies for the digression.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on September 30, 2016, 05:02:18 pm
Thanks for all the help folks.  When we have got the TEA sent out and I have a bit more time then I will pull together all the prototype info and add it to our website along with some example train formations (if anyone has any more to add then gratefully received!).  We will of course credit those of you who have given us info on our website.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: mickster04 on October 01, 2016, 12:14:38 am
Really appreciate it guys!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on October 01, 2016, 01:25:21 pm
ScottyStitch, thanks for the info and the digression.

I'm intrigued about the unbranded wagons - why were there no stars on those if it is to denote the speed capability?

When debranded, did the Esso wagons keep their stars?

My kind-of-plan (rule 1-ish) is to have some Esso and some unbranded in a rake. Will I be (vaguely) accurate pretending they are debranded Esso wagons? Or did Esso rakes really have unbranded tankers mixed in?

Thanks everyone - this is fun  :D

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on October 03, 2016, 10:00:30 pm
Were these used in the late 80s to deliver fuel to Long Rock or to Hayle Wharfs? If so which ones would be best?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on October 03, 2016, 10:30:01 pm
Were these used in the late 80s to deliver fuel to Long Rock or to Hayle Wharfs? If so which ones would be best?


The first photo in post #27 here appears to have a Class B behind the engine.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56264-hayle-wharf/page-2#entry2344428 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56264-hayle-wharf/page-2#entry2344428)

But I guess you had already seen it Richard.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on October 04, 2016, 12:28:46 am
Were these used in the late 80s to deliver fuel to Long Rock or to Hayle Wharfs? If so which ones would be best?
These were the unbranded ones.
in fact I don't know where branded and unbranded ones would be mixed, as these are, I believe, of different eras.
HTH
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on October 04, 2016, 10:30:43 pm
Were these used in the late 80s to deliver fuel to Long Rock or to Hayle Wharfs? If so which ones would be best?


The first photo in post #27 here appears to have a Class B behind the engine.

[url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56264-hayle-wharf/page-2#entry2344428[/url] ([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/56264-hayle-wharf/page-2#entry2344428[/url])

But I guess you had already seen it Richard.


I had but was not sure these were the same wagons, as the livery looks different. Plus I was unclear on the type of fuels these were used on over the class A tanks. For all I knew those could be the Class A type and I would have to wait.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on October 04, 2016, 10:46:42 pm

Hello all,

Thanks for all the support so far for this project.  It does seem that transition era modellers are deciding to get involved.

For anyone still having doubts, the modern TEA thread on here shows the standard of models now being delivered.

One think I would like to make clear is that the Class A tankers are by no means a certainty. 

They share the chassis with the Class B, so that has to happen for them to succeed.  Holding off from a Class B to "wait for" a Class A is probably a good way to ensure neither goes ahead...

Sorry to seem to mercenary but experience with other models shows that we have to be clear about our core aim:  to fund the production of Class Bs.  Anything later is a bonus.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on October 04, 2016, 10:48:23 pm
The class A tanks are silver grey like the current Farish TTA tank. The Hale wharf photos have both in the consist.
hence the reason why Revolution would do a 35t class A after the class B.
Every one has to start somewhere. and the class B is the classic Airfix kit after all.
Class A tanks carried light fuels with low flammability temperatures hence the use of barrier vehicles, but class B were usually heavier bitumen based oils, less volatile and less flammable, so after mid 1960s did not need barrier wagons.
HTH
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on October 04, 2016, 10:50:46 pm
Sorry Ben
I will place my massive order soon :)
Class A's will follow if I have anything to do with it :)
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on October 04, 2016, 11:14:14 pm

Hello all,

Thanks for all the support so far for this project.  It does seem that transition era modellers are deciding to get involved.

For anyone still having doubts, the modern TEA thread on here shows the standard of models now being delivered.

One think I would like to make clear is that the Class A tankers are by no means a certainty. 

They share the chassis with the Class B, so that has to happen for them to succeed.  Holding off from a Class B to "wait for" a Class A is probably a good way to ensure neither goes ahead...

Sorry to seem to mercenary but experience with other models shows that we have to be clear about our core aim:  to fund the production of Class Bs.  Anything later is a bonus.

Cheers

Ben A.

Hi Ben

I think you were absolutely clear at the outset that Class A would only happen if Class B made the cut.

I am really pleased that Transition Modellers are getting behind this one, but it should have such a wide appeal including pre and post TOPS BR blue as well. Given the standard set with the TEA I really hope many more will be encouraged to support it.

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: talisman56 on October 05, 2016, 08:32:07 am
Just ordered a mixed rake of 8 Class Bs, will order more when finances allow.

The only problem was which ones to order, as four of the six versions on offer fall into the Era I'm modelling, so I compromised by ordering examples of each :)

FYI, Cambridge Custom Transfers do sheets of branding and numbering for the Esso and Regent versions of the Class B (BL9 and BL11 respectively), so if the purchasers of multiple multi-packs don't get different running numbers, a bit of renumbering can be undertaken.

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Cooper on October 06, 2016, 09:21:14 pm
Just went shopping for an unbranded model to turn into a waste fuel carrier, and found a picture of an Esso lettered one heavily weathered. Naturally, I've ended up buying two to model both!  :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on October 08, 2016, 04:32:20 pm

Hello all,

Preparatory work is proceeding on this model.

These are the preliminary drawings of both the Esso and Regent models.  The next step is for these 2D drawings to be imported into a 3D CAD program.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/44/94-081016162426.jpeg)

Pre-orders for this model are encouraging, but we continue to urge anyone interested to register their order, since the sooner we reach our target the sooner the models will come.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ian Bowden on October 09, 2016, 01:24:11 am
2 sets of 3 regent ordered. i will have to avoid this thread or I might just order some more.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on October 09, 2016, 12:38:19 pm

Hello all,

Preparatory work is proceeding on this model.

Pre-orders for this model are encouraging, but we continue to urge anyone interested to register their order, since the sooner we reach our target the sooner the models will come.

Cheers

Ben A.

Can I add to my existing order or do I need to place an additional order?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on October 09, 2016, 12:48:52 pm
Pre-orders for this model are encouraging, but we continue to urge anyone interested to register their order, since the sooner we reach our target the sooner the models will come.

I was really pleased to see this model announced, mainly because the Airfix kit of the Esso tankers was a part of my childhood (like many others I'm sure).

I wasn't going to order any yet as I've just moved house and started a new job (and am therefore skint) but this has convinced me & I have just ordered two triple-packs - one unbranded, and one Esso.

Thanks Ben >:(

 ;)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on October 09, 2016, 04:15:15 pm

Hello all,

Preparatory work is proceeding on this model.

Pre-orders for this model are encouraging, but we continue to urge anyone interested to register their order, since the sooner we reach our target the sooner the models will come.

Cheers

Ben A.


@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94)

I also want to make a small addition to my original order and would like to know if I can amend it or do I have to make a seperate order?

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on October 09, 2016, 04:49:11 pm

Hello all,

Mike is the expert on the ordering interface. I am sure he will be along to answer questions around adding to orders ASAP.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on October 09, 2016, 05:12:02 pm
If you would like to order more please place a new order and include your original order number in the order notes field. We will try to combine orders and refund postage where it is feasible when we send out the wagons.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on October 09, 2016, 10:20:01 pm
Thanks Mike another Tripple pack ordered.

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on October 10, 2016, 10:55:12 am
2 x triple packs of Esso black livery ordered.
It would have been 3 but then I remembered I need to fund some Mermaids from D.J. Models (which are a long time in the coming)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on October 10, 2016, 04:53:56 pm
Hi Ben, Mike

Got the Dapol locos (9F and green 33), the Farish barrier wagons and the NGS Queen Mary brake van... just need Revolution's sandwich filling for a proper train.

You will be pleased to know I just committed to buy 21 Esso branded Type B wagons. Some of those hopefully to run in a rake of combined Type A and Type B  :drool:

Thank goodness I can pay in stages  :thankyousign:

Where are you in relation to meeting the production target number? (not that I can buy any more....)

Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 03, 2016, 07:30:31 pm

Hello all,

Thanks to all who are supporting this project.

We have now had the CAD drawings which are ready for approval for both the original and revised suspension types.

The ESSO tankers with the oval panels have the original suspension:

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/94-031116191704-45130997.jpeg)

The Regent tankers will have round panels; on both wagons these are designed to be fine etches to give the necessary depth.  For the other versions, or the unbranded model, these will be tampo printed as panels were not used.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/94-031116191703-450891454.jpeg)

As well as the branding plates, the ladders and catwalks will be photo etched for fineness, while the model features numerous separately fitted components and we believe unprecedented levels of detailing and accuracy in the underframe area.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/94-031116191703-45089897.jpeg)

We think this model may even surpass our very well received TEA tankers!

We are ready to approve the CADs for tooling but there is a catch.

Early indications were that the model would prove popular, but in recent weeks ordering has tailed off and we are still well short of the minimum number required to proceed to tooling.

This is a shame as if we were able to authorise tooling now we would probably have first samples by Christmas.

This is our second transition era model and once again it's struggling; whereas our modern offerings - TEA tankers, Pendolino, Class 92 etc - have enjoyed far more uptake.

We want to offer modellers of the transition era the opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities crowd-funding offers to make things happen, but we are beginning to feel that this sector of the market may either be unwilling to adopt the crowd-funding "pay up front" ethos, or perhaps the market is too fragmented to offer the levels of support required to get a model to production.

Our plan is to continue to offer the model for another month or so, but if by then we have not been able to move to tooling we will reluctantly, have to cancel it so we can focus on delivering those models which have generated adequate support.

We will impose a hard deadline in a week or so; anyone who wants to avoid missing out but isn't yet ready to commit is urged to register at our website without obligation to receive email notices of any deadlines.

In the event of this project being cancelled, anyone who has pledged will receive a full refund.

Thanks again to those who have stepped up to try to make this model happen; all we can suggest is that if anyone is keen to see this proceed then tell fellow club members or other enthusiasts to ensure that we don't have non-backer's regrets further down the line.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on November 03, 2016, 07:49:35 pm
Hi Ben

I am sorry this is the situation you are in. I cannot buy all the shortfall, much as I like these tankers, and I have already committed to 21 Esso tanks.

Dapol are in a similar position with the prototype HST. Far short of the 700 they needed from pledges, but they are going ahead anyway as they foresee sales once the model has been produced.

However, they have a somewhat bigger bank balance than you have, I suspect. I hope that people see what a beautiful model this will be (from the CADs) and will invest a small amount of their hard earned to see this model progress.

Because if we don't get sales in the Class B, there wont be the Class A that I also want! (unless offering the Class A at the same time could tip the balance perhaps?)

Regards
Bob

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: longbow on November 03, 2016, 08:01:36 pm
 Not really my era but this initiative should be encouraged so I've just ordered a few. If I can't find them a home I'm sure they'll be collectors items before long!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 03, 2016, 08:03:08 pm
Hi Bob,

That is a good point but the problem is that offering the Class A at the same time will not only cost more, and change the financial viability of the project, but may also split the market and make it even less viable.

The old Airfix kit sold in its thousands.  There is no reason that this project shouldn't work and you and Scott made a very plausible case.

Mike and I have taken it this far; but we can't go any further without modellers coming together to make it happen.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Papyrus on November 03, 2016, 08:25:25 pm
They certainly look as if they will be beautiful models, so I really hope you can get the numbers you need. My still embryonic layout can't really justify fuel tankers but I could stretch to molasses tankers, so I have ordered a triple pack in the hope that a few more will help the overall effort.

These projects deserve to succeed. My very best wishes to all involved.

Cheers,

Chris
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on November 03, 2016, 08:39:55 pm

We want to offer modellers of the transition era the opportunity to take advantage of the opportunities crowd-funding offers to make things happen, but we are beginning to feel that this sector of the market may either be unwilling to adopt the crowd-funding "pay up front" ethos, or perhaps the market is too fragmented to offer the levels of support required to get a model to production.


Could just be timing, Ben. Folks may have just had an expensive holiday, maybe paying for new school uniforms or even just thinking about Christmas. It could be any manner of things rather than lack of desire on the part of us transition modellers but, hey, we've got broad shoulders :wave:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on November 03, 2016, 08:48:52 pm
This is disappointing news I will up my order in due course, this does seem to be forming a pattern though. I don't want to start or course an argument. I would rather see this succeed so we can get the class A as well. Could you Advertise the deadline as the end of February as that would remove the Christmas argument etc and give a fixed point in time?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on November 03, 2016, 08:56:46 pm
Hi

They do show promise but unfortunately my own requirements for both class A and B tanks of this type have been covered by kit building.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: johnlambert on November 03, 2016, 09:41:40 pm
Thanks for the reminder, I've just placed an order for a triple pack of Esso wagons.  The CAD images look amazing, having seen what you delivered with the TEA wagons I've got high hopes for the Class B Tank Wagon.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on November 03, 2016, 09:55:38 pm
The CADs look fantastic. This will prove to be an amazing model if it goes ahead. If these don't sway people then it is hard to know what will.

I will probably commit to another there pack to support the project but I find it surprising that there hasn't been the same level of enthusiasm as for the TEA.

After all although they derive from the Transition period, the Type B Tanks were in use right through Corporate blue pre and post TOPS and well into the 80s and that's a long timescale which seems to challenge the perception that it is just transition modellers who are not so bought into crowd funding, there must be more to it surely?

I will certainly give my fellow club members a gentle nudge, although it has seen plenty of coverage I do wonder if they even know about it. If they do and are not interested, I will make a point of asking why..

I have my fingers crossed and my plea to people who want one is to get out there amongst fellow modellers who may not read forums.

Roy

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Only Me on November 03, 2016, 09:58:16 pm
Ive just ordered 3 triple packs and a caledonian 92!! Hopefully the memory jog will work!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 03, 2016, 10:15:05 pm
I have topped up my United Molasses order. Been researching the road tanker I shall need to shuttle the molasses from the sugar factory to the loading siding, too.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on November 03, 2016, 11:17:56 pm
Ben & Mike,

The CADS look fantastic, but Iím saddened and amazed in fairly equal measure to read that the project is struggling. 

After your disappointment with the 21/29s it would be really unfortunate if these tanks donít make it Ė not only do I really want a rake of them, but their failure would, I imagine, toll the death knell of any future transition era models from you. 

My TEAs are absolutely stunning (although currently they do look a little odd trundling through my half-rebuilt, filthy, run-down, late 1960s Sarf London commuter station) and the prospect of my preferred era missing out on some RevolutioN magic is disheartening.  Youíre clearly looking to produce this particular model out of a high regard / compassion for your fellow modellers rather than from any personal desire and Iíd love to see you succeed, so Iíll order, like many other crusading posters tonight, another triple pack. 

Hope those extra orders will help nudge things along and maybe your presence at Warley and further publicity will result in a sufficiently game-changing boost to the order book. 

I wonder why theyíve not been more of a success (so far)?  Are us transition johnnies a more cautious, decidedly crowdfunding-resistant bunch?  Or are many just under-informed?   

Very best wishes,

Mark

PS - Iím hoping Grahameís NGS magazine will be devoting a minimum of a double page spread to this in the forthcoming issue! 
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Only Me on November 03, 2016, 11:25:36 pm
@Mark (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1658)  i wonder if the issue is that people tend to model what they remember and as people grow older there are less people :-
A) Modelling transition era
B) Those that do still like to pay by Cheque and dont all use the internet
C) Buy their stock as kits or directly from their local model shop

Cheers Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on November 03, 2016, 11:46:11 pm
Okay - I have convinced myself! Triple pack of United Molasses ordered.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 04, 2016, 12:14:44 am
Could you Advertise the deadline as the end of February as that would remove the Christmas argument etc and give a fixed point in time?

Good point.  Our concern about delaying projects is that we really don't like holding people's money (perverse as it may sound) - it is a necessary evil but it is not really fair to delay things too long. I'm not saying that next Feb would be too long but it is just something we are really conscious about!

Could just be timing, Ben. Folks may have just had an expensive holiday, maybe paying for new school uniforms or even just thinking about Christmas.

Possibly, but if people aren't interested then there is always a reason. On an individual basis there will always be some people for whom the timing is wrong, but we are not talking about individual cases but the overall sales picture.  I really struggle to see why a modern TEA would sell considerably more wagons than the Class B tanks - the TEAs have much shorter lifespans, were more expensive, take up more space, and mostly only run in reasonably long rakes (the Class Bs have much more variety of rake length) etc.

We haven't given up!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Hailstone on November 04, 2016, 12:44:24 am
I have just ordered 2 triple packs of Esso black, I would like more, but there are limits to my wallet with the Castles just over the horizon, the Dukedog imminent and three Tompson BG's just paid for

Regards,

Alex
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Stuart7358 on November 04, 2016, 07:11:18 am
Hello all.I can't speak for everyone who hasn't ordered but can just say why I won't be. The CAD's look stunning and the tanks do fit in with my era (just) but after paying out for other bits such as the TEA's. Thompson, KFA's etc. The wallet is empty for a while so no order from me. Please don't take this the wrong way but there are those who can buy every item that is released but there are those who can't so have to prioritise their purchases.  The amount of models being announced quickly means for some of us wallets have no time to recover and hence no orders.

I hope this project goes ahead and am sorry I can't support it this time.

Stuart
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob Tidbury on November 04, 2016, 09:04:07 am
I agree with Stuart when you live on a very small pension other things seem to get in the way of buying model railways so far this year I managed to build a new branchline bought a secondhand class 31 ,and a Battle of Britain Winston Churchill and ordered two Union Mills Dukedogs plus other small items .
I would love some of these new four wheel tank wagons they look absolutely perfect ,but I think I would be heading for a Divorce if I bought another large item such as a loco ,or rake of wagons in fact I've actualy sold more than I've bought  ,there is one that I will buy when it is released and that's a class 68 in Chiltern livery only because they run through High Wycombe and also my son and daughter both work for Chiltern Railways.
BUT I WISH REVOLUTION TRAINS ALL THE BEST  AND I CANT WAIT FOR MY POPPYLINO PAID FOR BY ALL MY FAMILY ,WIFE, SON ,DAUGHTER AND EVEN MOTHER AND FATHER IN LAW AND BROTHER INLAW TWO YEARS AGO AS a Christmas / Birthday present . That's what the Dukedogs are for this year by the way .
I've trained them (excuse the pun ) to club together and buy something I really want rather than even more handkerchiefs , underpants ,and toiletries etc etc .
But even thier budgets are now very limited .what with houses ,babies ,cars all costing mega bucks to run and maintain .
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on November 04, 2016, 10:29:47 am
Ben/Mike

I would be disappointed if this project doesn't go ahead & will almost certainly be increasing my order. Waiting a bit longer is better than not going ahead. A couple of questions...

While I know that you won't want to divulge commercially confidential information is it possible to indicate how close you are to minimum numbers in percentage terms?

Secondly if I order further ESSO Triple Packs will they all be the same number series or will you be producing multiple differently numbered triple packs? i.e. will the number series in the second pack be the same as in the first pack on so on.

David
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 04, 2016, 10:45:31 am
While I know that you won't want to divulge commercially confidential information is it possible to indicate how close you are to minimum numbers in percentage terms?

Secondly if I order further ESSO Triple Packs will they all be the same number series or will you be producing multiple differently numbered triple packs? i.e. will the number series in the second pack be the same as in the first pack on so on.

Hi David

On the first I'd really rather not for a simple reason (nothing to do with transparency or confidentiality) - we don't want people to make a judgement to buy or not buy on whether they think the project will succeed or not.  We firmly believe that these tanks should sell well and we are really grateful to the people that have ordered some and in many cases ordered more, I think that what we are struggling with is reaching or appealing to the people who haven't signed up.  As Ben said perhaps because we had not set a deadline there was no sense of urgency. 

We have managed this project in a slightly different way to others which has meant that we took a gamble on getting the CAD done (now complete) and we are probably further along than we were at the equivalent time for the TEAs ie we could push the button on tooling pretty much now, but we can't do that until we are significantly closer to at least selling 50%+ of our minimum run.

On the second question about different numbers - it depends entirely on numbers ordered but our experience of the TEAs is that it is pretty unlikely that we would be able to do more alternative numbers as we wouldn't hit minimum order numbers for each variant.  We are already offering more liveries (6 actually more if you consider some of the variants) and number (4 per livery) options than most manufacturers. But we will never say never!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on November 04, 2016, 10:53:26 am
Can I ask where the class Bs have been advertised please?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on November 04, 2016, 10:56:21 am
Mike,

I, like many others will be very disappointed if this doesn't go ahead, and will be increasing my order when I can.

Waiting a bit longer is better than not going ahead.

Agree 100% - hopefully any deadline you impose won't be too close to Christmas!

Jonathan
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 04, 2016, 11:16:18 am
Can I ask where the class Bs have been advertised please?

All the same places as our other projects! They've featured in all the regular modelling press as well as here, Yahoo groups and RMweb.

Cheers, Mike

PS we can't really afford to advertise or rather we could but you can easily start working out the cost of advertising and what that means in terms of additional cost per model!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Steven B on November 04, 2016, 12:58:37 pm
I do hope these go ahead - especially as I've been buying other vacuum braked wagons to run with them! (appears that despite modelling the 1980s all my trains were air-brake only).

Hopefully Mike and Ben can twist the arm of the likes of C&M Models to order models for shop stock. Perhaps, if 1960s era modellers don't like the idea of pre-ordering or buying from somewhere other than a shop, it's worth asking your local shop to invest in a few.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Smiffy on November 04, 2016, 01:41:25 pm
Hi Mike and Ben,

Assuming you cannot go into specific numbers / percentages, is it possible to say how far off a viable project this is?

Is it way off or just short, could a gentle push by us to reach fellow modellers easily get it over the line or do you feel it will take a long hard sell to get there?

Regards

Iain
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 04, 2016, 02:10:03 pm
Hi Iain.

We are barely halfway to the required target.

There is some merit in holding the option open until after Christmas, and we are going to try really hard to push this one at Warley where in theory we can reach an audience of several thousand.

And the problem with delaying the deadline is that the project gets further delayed; if we had the backing in place now we could have test samples by Xmas!  So at least if we put the deadline at December (and bearing in mind we don't need the full amount then) at least we can get samples before Chinese New year kicks in and costs another 6 weeks.

Just to reiterate:  Mike and I, having put in a lot of work in terms of design, publicity, research etc would really like this model to go ahead.

We haven't paid for any advertising (this would simply add to the cost - we'd rather spend cash on better models!) but we have handed out hundreds of leaflets at TINGS and, thanks to the goodwill generated previously, been given very generous coverage in all the magazines, plus of course enjoyed the support of the N Gauge Forum and RM Web.

I accept there will always be some potential backers we cannot reach, but that goes for any of our models.  And yet repeatedly it seems the modern stuff gets the backing while the transition stuff doesn't.

I can understand that some people might prefer to "wait and see" but sadly that attitude doesn't work with this mode of production.  I would urge hesitant supporters to take a good look at the TEA tankers and trust us to deliver a model of a comparable quality.  Anyone who talks to us at shows, sees the tankers, Pendolino etc will be clear we are not interested in delivering anything other than a model we personally can be proud of.

It is also worth reiterating that while paying up front is not what the market is used to, we don't expect the full payment at the start and it means that when the models come to you they are already paid for.  Plus you get the satisfaction of knowing that without your investment, no matter how much, the models probably wouldn't have happened.  Mike and I are just facilitators:  every successful model owes a debt of gratitude to everyone who had the vision to step forward.

I do sense that some people, having seen us actually deliver models, may think that "it'll happen anyway" but I must stress every project is self-contained; the only area where we do have a bit of flexibility is with producing CADs, as these are relatively cheap.

Let's get to Warley, talk to people there, and take a view on where we go.

Apologies for the essay - just trying to answer the questions above and I am always happy to discuss these projects and listen to the thoughts of our fellow enthusiasts.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 04, 2016, 02:17:44 pm
Hi Iain

To add to what Ben has put.  We would expect to sell for any wagon project (to make it viable) an absolute minimum of 2000 and realistically more like 3000 (the TEAs exceeded that) - none of that is a particular secret.

We don't expect to sell the whole amount right away and we won't close the order book until we are ready to start production.  Plus we shouldn't forget that we only announced the Class B tanks 2 months ago.

We have an internal target that gives us confidence that orders are heading in the right direction and gives us the confidence to start tooling (which is for us really the point of no return - at the moment if we had to cancel the project and refund people then we would lose some money but not so much that would break us.  Once you get to tooling if you then cancel then frankly we would go bust and/or people would lose money - neither situation we are prepared to accept!).

We were significantly far from our internal target to raise our concerns hence our posts over the past day. We are still very confident that things can be turned around as to us it is such an obvious and useful wagon with a long history.

Mid-December we will review where we are and give people a realistic update.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on November 04, 2016, 02:38:21 pm
I had absolutely no idea about this!
Can't explain how I've missed it???

I've ordered a significant amount of Esso Class B wagons!

Fingers crossed you reach the target.

Barry
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Smiffy on November 04, 2016, 03:49:07 pm
Thanks Ben and Mike for the explanations - Frustrating to say the least
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Nighthawk on November 04, 2016, 04:31:26 pm
Hi Mike and Ben,
This project really deserves to succeed, so have just placed my order for four each of the Esso, Mobil and Regent variants.
More fingers crossed,
Regards,
John D
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Topcat on November 04, 2016, 05:18:23 pm
Hi, have ordered 3, and based on the reviews of the tea wagon I have made the right decision. The pics of the teas look excellent too.  The price is right too. If people are waiting before buying then we are all waiting for them too.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PostModN66 on November 04, 2016, 08:23:57 pm
Just out of interest, is there a difference in the ordering pattern of these tanks vs. the TEAs?

What I mean by this is that I ordered a "block train" of TEAS - 9 wagons in total (OK a short block train, but the equivalent in length of  20+ four wheel tankers.) I get the impression that others ordered similar or greater quantities, but that for the class B's people are perhaps ordering a handful.

Is this the case, and could explain some of the difference?

Cheers Jon  :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on November 05, 2016, 12:16:30 am
Disappointing news about the shortage of orders. But it's a new month, new pay cheque...

Just upped my order with some Regent triples and another Esso.

The CADs look absolutely amazing and I love that the Esso and Regent wagons will get etched plates. I don't care if the rakes weren't mixed in real life...

Thanks for the post yesterday with more details of the progress and the CADs, it does make a difference to know the details, and I am fortunate to be able to support the project further.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on November 05, 2016, 10:05:16 am
I have sent an email to the NGS area group manager for Leicestershire and he has forwarded that to all in the region.
Rather than spamming everyone, an email from your area manager would be a great way to get knowledge around the Society.
We forget we are actually a subset which includes and excludes NGS members, and some people in the NGS have still never heard of this forum.

Can I ask folk in their own areas to contact their area managers similarly to spread the news.

Here is the email I sent. Personalise it and use it. If you want something, sometimes you have to work for it!

Bob

Dear [Area Manager]

Ben Ando and Mike Haleís business, Revolution N, has produced CAD drawings for a type B tank in N gauge (attached) [you can get them off the Forum]. 
They entered the market with the Pendolino and followed that up with modern TEA tanks. Both are a success using crowdfunding approaches.
However they stalled on the Class 21/29 using crowdfunding, but Bob Gregory and Scott Stichell helped persuade them to produce the class B tank in N
(this was the old Airfix kit of the 1960s).
 
http://www.revolutiontrains.com/projects/35t-class-b-tank-wagon/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/projects/35t-class-b-tank-wagon/)
 
This they have done Ė as far as the CAD drawings, but they are still short of their target for cutting metal and going into production.
 
http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-b-tanker-takes-shape-theres-catch/ (http://www.revolutiontrains.com/class-b-tanker-takes-shape-theres-catch/)
 
This is a classic tank wagon operational from 1957 to the late 1980s, seen in long rakes and also in small handfuls on mixed goods, and it should sell in spades. It was designed by Colin Allbright (ex Farish and Ultima). It must be one of the most detailed wagons designed to date.
However, perhaps the news of this wagon has not gone outside the Forums it has been advertised in on the internet.
I was wondering if you could distribute this email to our area group members, with the link to the Revolution website.
 
There is only a short window in which to collect the orders they require to produce the model.
It would be a shame that this wagon fails to be produced because of lack of awareness of its existence.
 
Many thanks

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 05, 2016, 01:21:50 pm

Hi Bob,

That's a great idea, and what you've written explains the situation in a nutshell.

I strongly suspect that you are right, and that there is a large cohort of NGS members who do not frequent the Internet, or at least not Model Railway forums, and are unaware of the wagon's existence.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on November 05, 2016, 03:58:26 pm
Can you get this in the next journal with an advertised fixed deadline? If not how about the first one of next year with a deadline 4-5 weeks after the print date to allow for late shipping and post to far flung places.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on November 05, 2016, 04:47:51 pm
Can you get this in the next journal with an advertised fixed deadline? If not how about the first one of next year with a deadline 4-5 weeks after the print date to allow for late shipping and post to far flung places.

I wonder how much the NGS would charge to include a flyer/order form in the next mailing at the end of November? It would guarantee that NGS Members were aware of the project and those without internet access would have a method of ordering.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on November 05, 2016, 05:07:54 pm
Can you get this in the next journal with an advertised fixed deadline? If not how about the first one of next year with a deadline 4-5 weeks after the print date to allow for late shipping and post to far flung places.

I wonder how much the NGS would charge to include a flyer/order form in the next mailing at the end of November? It would guarantee that NGS Members were aware of the project and those without internet access would have a method of ordering.

Great thinking, that man :claphappy:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 06, 2016, 04:38:56 pm
I have been out of the country and so unable to interact with NGF other than via iphone.

A number of thoughts on this topic:

1 - These wagons were ubiquitous throughout the network, literally found in any and every corner.

2 - Far from only being found in rakes of multiple wagons, it was very common to find single wagons in a mixed goods train. I have numerous examples in my book collection of single examples of these vehicles in Scotland in pick-up/mixed goods rakes.

3 - Number 2 being the case, modellers buying a single wagon or triple pack, will still find the item realistically model-able. There is no need to commit to 20-30 wagon rakes to maintain realism.

4 - Reading between the lines, if 500 modellers over and above those who have already pledged, modelling 1958ish to 1989ish, commited to 1 of these vehicles (circa £20 plus postage), it may be enough to take the project over the 'proceed with tooling' line. Similarly, if 160 were to commit to a triple pack (circa £60), the same result could be achieved.

5 - Judging by the CADs, and by virtue of the etched detail (especially the ESSO emblems), these are far and away the most detailed N-gauge wagons that hitherto have been produced

6 - Based on the price of the RevolutioN TEAs (£26/£27) and the Farish Polybulk (£36), for the detail on offer, these wagons are good value for money.

7 - The class As will not be considered if the Class Bs are not successfully funded.

8 - With regards to a closing date, I'd be very keen to see it extended until after Model Rail Scotland (Feb 2017).


Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class
Post by: Western Exile on November 06, 2016, 07:35:14 pm
I am considering placing an order for some of these wagons as it seems to me (from what I have read here) they would be suitable for a wide variety of layouts in terms of geography and timescale, and the CADs look very good indeed. Also, a number of people here seem to be passionate about getting them into production and it is good for the UK N Gauge community as a whole for this sort of project to succeed. However, they are not going to be a fit for my layout and I would therefore be buying them speculatively with the sole intention of selling them on at a later date as I believe there will be a demand from those who are not inclined to put money up-front. There may be people who think this is "profiteering" but I am not doing this as a money-making venture, nor will I be buying large quantities. I just want to do my bit to help get this project over the finish line. So, with all that being said, and because I know next to nothing about these wagons, can someone please advise me which of the variants on offer are most likely to have, shall we say, "resale potential"?
Also, I seem to recall that for the Pendolino project there was some sort of progress indicator showing how things were going towards reaching the target. Is there any reason why this project could not have that on the Revolution Trains website?
Thanks.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 06, 2016, 07:45:09 pm
I am considering placing an order for some of these wagons as it seems to me (from what I have read here) they would be suitable for a wide variety of layouts in terms of geography and timescale, and the CADs look very good indeed. Also, a number of people here seem to be passionate about getting them into production and it is good for the UK N Gauge community as a whole for this sort of project to succeed. However, they are not going to be a fit for my layout and I would therefore be buying them speculatively with the sole intention of selling them on at a later date as I believe there will be a demand from those who are not inclined to put money up-front. There may be people who think this is "profiteering" but I am not doing this as a money-making venture, nor will I be buying large quantities. I just want to do my bit to help get this project over the finish line. So, with all that being said, and because I know next to nothing about these wagons, can someone please advise me which of the variants on offer are most likely to have, shall we say, "resale potential"?
Also, I seem to recall that for the Pendolino project there was some sort of progress indicator showing how things were going towards reaching the target. Is there any reason why this project could not have that on the Revolution Trains website?
Thanks.


It's difficult to say which have the best resale potential, but I'd have thought the ESSo branded models first followed by the unbranded ones. That's just my opinion.

These tankers were launched by ESSO in the late fifties and lasted in branded form until the early 70s, before the emblems were removed. They are perhaps synonymous with ESSO and have a nostalgia element from the old OO gauge Airfix kit of many years vintage.

Regent examples were rebranded Texaco late in the 60s and then lost the branding completely at the same time(ish) as the ESSO ones.

UM examples entered service in the very early 70s. Im unsure when they left service (from memory)

That said, it's all about the buyers, as to what is popular, so as I said it's hard to know for sure.


I'm not sure if @Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) or @red_death (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246) are prepared to divulge what liveries are most popular at this juncture.


If it was me, I'd plump for ESSO.

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class
Post by: Barry M on November 06, 2016, 08:09:26 pm
I am considering placing an order for some of these wagons as it seems to me (from what I have read here) they would be suitable for a wide variety of layouts in terms of geography and timescale, and the CADs look very good indeed. Also, a number of people here seem to be passionate about getting them into production and it is good for the UK N Gauge community as a whole for this sort of project to succeed. However, they are not going to be a fit for my layout and I would therefore be buying them speculatively with the sole intention of selling them on at a later date as I believe there will be a demand from those who are not inclined to put money up-front. There may be people who think this is "profiteering" but I am not doing this as a money-making venture, nor will I be buying large quantities. I just want to do my bit to help get this project over the finish line. So, with all that being said, and because I know next to nothing about these wagons, can someone please advise me which of the variants on offer are most likely to have, shall we say, "resale potential"?
Also, I seem to recall that for the Pendolino project there was some sort of progress indicator showing how things were going towards reaching the target. Is there any reason why this project could not have that on the Revolution Trains website?
Thanks.


Go for the Esso & I'll buy them off you!
I already have a large order in but hey 3 more won't go amiss!

Barry
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on November 06, 2016, 09:22:29 pm
Just out of interest, is there a difference in the ordering pattern of these tanks vs. the TEAs?

What I mean by this is that I ordered a "block train" of TEAS - 9 wagons in total (OK a short block train, but the equivalent in length of  20+ four wheel tankers.) I get the impression that others ordered similar or greater quantities, but that for the class B's people are perhaps ordering a handful.

Is this the case, and could explain some of the difference?

Cheers Jon  :)

I think you may have missed the cost consideration, Jon. I imagine you paid something like c. £250 for your rake of 9 TEAs. On the basis the same length train of Class Bs would cost £390, and maybe that's why people are ordering a handful. Fair play to those ordering large rakes but I just can't afford it.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on November 06, 2016, 10:29:06 pm
From a modelling perspective there is no need to order a large rake, four or five to a local oil terminal (many of which survived into the early 90s) would be quite representative so maybe a total of ten or so to represent empties out and full ones in on a working would suffice. I will certainly be committing to more once I have found the e-mail with my original order for cross reference.

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: mickster04 on November 07, 2016, 01:17:38 am
I'm an 80s guy myself, but have decided to order some anyway! hope it works out for all those transition modellers!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 07, 2016, 11:49:03 am
Just out of interest, is there a difference in the ordering pattern of these tanks vs. the TEAs?

What I mean by this is that I ordered a "block train" of TEAS - 9 wagons in total (OK a short block train, but the equivalent in length of  20+ four wheel tankers.) I get the impression that others ordered similar or greater quantities, but that for the class B's people are perhaps ordering a handful.


My gut feeling (having looked at some figures but without having done much analysis yet) is that with the odd exception the orders are for significantly smaller quantities than TEAs.

I completely accept Nobby's point that to assemble the same length of train of Class Bs vs TEAs is more expensive, but I'm not sure that is the answer.  I would still expect the Class Bs to be at least selling as well as the TEAs did in quantities.  If for no other reason than they lasted so much longer and were much more widespread than the TEAs - indeed that was part of the appeal for us!

I'm not sure if @Ben A ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94[/url]) or @red_death ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=246[/url]) are prepared to divulge what liveries are most popular at this juncture.

If it was me, I'd plump for ESSO.


Esso black are the best sellers by a significant distance. Unbranded black a distant second.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on November 07, 2016, 01:38:02 pm
Mike, Ben

When originally listed, there was a hint that if enough Esso black were ordered, alternative numbers might be made available other than the "mixed triple" and "single" running numbers chosen.

Will this still be the case, or is it unlikely to happen now?

It would be "nice" to have more variation, as the numbers are so obvious (large, white on black), but I have been running rakes of TTA wagons with the same numbers for a while, so why should I be worried apart from this is a recent move for modellers to be more prototypical [e.g. some people won't buy Maunsell or Bullied coaches if they don't have the right set numbers].

I love the underframe detailing on these, BTW, and I take back anything I may have been accused of suggesting that skimping on the chassis would be acceptable!

Regards
Bob

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 07, 2016, 03:50:42 pm
When originally listed, there was a hint that if enough Esso black were ordered, alternative numbers might be made available other than the "mixed triple" and "single" running numbers chosen.

Will this still be the case, or is it unlikely to happen now?

Hi Bob

It is entirely down to sales - we couldn't justify alternatives on the TEAs.  By the time you have already produced 4 numbers of each livery across 6+ liveries then you already have a lot of variations all of which have minimum order numbers though numbers are generally the easiest to change.

At the moment it is pretty unlikely we could justify a second set of numbers but not impossible (and if it is going to happen then it will almost certainly be the Esso Black tanks).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: talisman56 on November 07, 2016, 04:20:34 pm
Having reviewed the account balance, another Esso triple and unbranded single ordered. May be able to place another order later on in the month, if finances look as rosy as they are expected to be...
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on November 07, 2016, 04:45:39 pm
When originally listed, there was a hint that if enough Esso black were ordered, alternative numbers might be made available other than the "mixed triple" and "single" running numbers chosen.

Will this still be the case, or is it unlikely to happen now?

Hi Bob

It is entirely down to sales - we couldn't justify alternatives on the TEAs.  By the time you have already produced 4 numbers of each livery across 6+ liveries then you already have a lot of variations all of which have minimum order numbers though numbers are generally the easiest to change.

At the moment it is pretty unlikely we could justify a second set of numbers but not impossible (and if it is going to happen then it will almost certainly be the Esso Black tanks).

Cheers, Mike

Might be a silly idea but would it be feasible to supply the Esso branded tanks without numbers & to offer a transfer sheet, with a selection of numbers, so that purchasers could apply their own?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Zwilnik on November 07, 2016, 05:31:14 pm
When originally listed, there was a hint that if enough Esso black were ordered, alternative numbers might be made available other than the "mixed triple" and "single" running numbers chosen.

Will this still be the case, or is it unlikely to happen now?

Hi Bob

It is entirely down to sales - we couldn't justify alternatives on the TEAs.  By the time you have already produced 4 numbers of each livery across 6+ liveries then you already have a lot of variations all of which have minimum order numbers though numbers are generally the easiest to change.

At the moment it is pretty unlikely we could justify a second set of numbers but not impossible (and if it is going to happen then it will almost certainly be the Esso Black tanks).

Cheers, Mike

Might be a silly idea but would it be feasible to supply the Esso branded tanks without numbers & to offer a transfer sheet, with a selection of numbers, so that purchasers could apply their own?

Or even easier, if the relevant numbers on the tanks will be easy enough to scrape off, then pre-warn Fox Transfers that there may be some demand for them and see if they can have a set of numbers ready as transfers in time for release (they might even be able to do their own pre-order linked to yours?)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 07, 2016, 05:53:05 pm
Transfers are already available for some of the liveries (and mentioned somewhere in this thread IIRC).

Cheers, Mike

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: talisman56 on November 07, 2016, 06:36:18 pm
Transfers are already available for some of the liveries (and mentioned somewhere in this thread IIRC).

Cheers, Mike

Yes, Cambridge Custom Transfers do packs for branding and numbering for the Class B tanks - Esso (ref. BL9), Regent (ref. BL11) and Fina (ref. BL12). The numbers on those sheets could also be applied to unbranded vehicles.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 07, 2016, 07:21:01 pm

Hi all,

I noticed these before and am a little confused by the Fina ones. 

Although I have seen models of 00 Class B tanks with the Fina branding (presumably produced with the CCT kits) I have not been able to locate a prototype photo or other confirmation that Fina had any of these, and earlier in the thread I think they were discounted as a possibility.

Can anyone do better?

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 07, 2016, 07:26:12 pm

Hi all,

I noticed these before and am a little confused by the Fina ones. 

Although I have seen models of 00 Class B tanks with the Fina branding (presumably produced with the CCT kits) I have not been able to locate a prototype photo or other confirmation that Fina had any of these, and earlier in the thread I think they were discounted as a possibility.

Can anyone do better?

Cheers

Ben A.


My own understanding is that Fina did not use these wagons. As far as I'm aware, they used the slightly later monobloc tankers......
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Zwilnik on November 07, 2016, 07:38:35 pm
Paul Bartlett's site shows a set of Class Bs built for Fina in the 70s. Would these be the same?

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trl50tclassb (http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trl50tclassb)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 07, 2016, 07:44:09 pm
Paul Bartlett's site shows a set of Class Bs built for Fina in the 70s. Would these be the same?

[url]http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trl50tclassb[/url] ([url]http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trl50tclassb[/url])



No these are very different. And heavier.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 07, 2016, 07:55:14 pm
Paul Bartlett's site shows a set of Class Bs built for Fina in the 70s. Would these be the same?

[url]http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trl50tclassb[/url] ([url]http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/trl50tclassb[/url])


The TUB was a much more modern 50 ton wagon, and used in air braked and vacuum braked trains.

There was a series of 35t Class B wagons owned by BRTE which may have appeared with Fina markings, but I can find no evidence one way or the other. BRTE would often signwrite wagons on long term contract with the users logo. Probably the best way to search is by looking at any terminal photos for the era where Fina/Petrofina delivered. BRTE became part of Procor, then CAIB UK, then VTG UK. I think I was a director of it when it was a dormant company!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on November 07, 2016, 08:29:13 pm
Just a bit more info on the Fina possibility. The number 239 shown on this model uses the Cambridge Custom transfers.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34769-20t-class-b-tank-wagons/?p=369231 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34769-20t-class-b-tank-wagons/?p=369231)

One number series of the BRTE wagons was:- 47200-47296

I wonder.....
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 07, 2016, 08:46:10 pm
I'm
Almost certain that Fina wagons were the 40 or 45t monobloc 4 wheel wagons. However, I'm no expert and happy to be proved wrong.....
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: RichardBattersby on November 10, 2016, 05:17:07 pm
I've just placed my order for two triple packs, one of unbranded black and one of Esso. Really pleased to have a model which fits my layout. The CAD looks amazing!

 :D
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on November 11, 2016, 08:56:36 am
As promised a couple of pages ago, I've just ordered another triple-pack of Esso liveries.

A couple of points I noticed from my experience of going to the website just now:

1. There's no mention of this project on the home page. I appreciate that you've got more ongoing projects than spaces on the front page (4), but since the TEA project is done with, does that still need to be there? Could the Class B not replace that?

2. I want to support this project as much as I can, and will be buying more as and when I can afford. Is there a way of adding to an existing order, rather than placing a new order (and paying the postage charge again) as I've just done?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on November 12, 2016, 07:24:12 pm
In case it may be of interest I happened upon the Railway modeller 2017 Yearbook today. There is a very good article on tank traffic including shots of Class B Tanks real and model (including Jon's Lofthole Oil terminal).

In considering the closing date for subscribing, I wonder if might be an idea for Mike and Ben to hold fire for a few weeks until after Christmas (when I will get my copy) and leverage any useful advantage this article may have in possibly having a final push in the campaign with reference to the article?

This publication will I suspect reach a lot of modellers hence my suggestion.

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 12, 2016, 07:35:26 pm
1. There's no mention of this project on the home page. I appreciate that you've got more ongoing projects than spaces on the front page (4), but since the TEA project is done with, does that still need to be there? Could the Class B not replace that?

2. I want to support this project as much as I can, and will be buying more as and when I can afford. Is there a way of adding to an existing order, rather than placing a new order (and paying the postage charge again) as I've just done?

The TEA is still up because of the 4mm TEA project.  The Class Bs were up there until recently (when they were replaced by the 92).  Unfortunately we don't have space for all ongoing projects.

On the second question - no I'm afraid not. We tried it with the TEAs and it is a pain administratively combining orders and matching up payments as the software can't really do that.  The P&P charge is a combination of the number of items you purchase (i.e. a triple pack counts as one item) and a per order admin/packaging charge - if we can combine orders we do and we refund part of the additional P&P charges but it isn't always possible.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on November 13, 2016, 12:09:18 am
1. There's no mention of this project on the home page. I appreciate that you've got more ongoing projects than spaces on the front page (4), but since the TEA project is done with, does that still need to be there? Could the Class B not replace that?


The TEA is still up because of the 4mm TEA project.  The Class Bs were up there until recently (when they were replaced by the 92).  Unfortunately we don't have space for all ongoing projects.


Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike

With all due deference to the 00 TEA, the N Class B is a more recent project, and it will hardly help it's cause if it is not visible on your own Website. It might lead some to think that you have already given up on it. It's demise will become a self fulfilling prophecy if it isn't given as much visibility as the Modern Image projects within the areas you can influence.

Regards

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on November 15, 2016, 02:10:16 pm
Ordered another 3 Esso black.
That's x6 triple packs on order....
Really hope this goes ahead!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on November 19, 2016, 11:09:05 am
 :bump:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on November 25, 2016, 02:11:10 pm
 :bump: :bump: :bump:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: ScottyStitch on November 25, 2016, 02:26:05 pm
I will be at the Falkirk MRC exhibition tomorrow, distributing the last of my flyers to some possibly unsuspecting visitors.

C'mon folks, lets get this over the line! :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: talisman56 on November 25, 2016, 07:48:39 pm
My final order, as future spare money is earmarked for other model railway purchases - one Mobil triple pack and a single Regent. Added a note to the final order to link it to previous two orders when calculating shipping.

Here's hoping that the project goes through...
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on November 26, 2016, 07:37:02 pm
Ok, spoke to the RevolutioN guys at Warley today.
Without being pessimistic, they are still way off the mark with orders.
Please pledge what you can.
We have waited for this wagon in n gauge for years!
Thank you.

 :NGF:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on November 26, 2016, 08:19:48 pm
Ok, spoke to the RevolutioN guys at Warley today.
Without being pessimistic, they are still way off the mark with orders.
Please pledge what you can.
We have waited for this wagon in n gauge for years!
Thank you.

 :NGF:

This is disappointing indeed, I have increased my order just now by adding an ESSO as I like the livery and 2 unbranded, as I hope they will have different numbers to the triple pack I have ordered. That said it is all inmaterial if the project fails so please get your pledging mood on folks.

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on November 28, 2016, 02:19:17 pm
Hi Mike & Ben,

I'm sure you're busy and exhausted post Warley, but if you have a moment I'd be very happy to hear your views on how much new interest you feel was generated for the B Tanks over the weekend.  I'm sure it will take a couple of weeks to assess any spike in firm orders, but it would be good to get a sense of whether you think there is a great untapped market about to catapult this wonderful project into the tool room.

The coverage in the latest Journal was pretty good - hopefully that will lead to a few orders as well.

All the best,

Mark     
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 28, 2016, 02:46:48 pm
Hi Mark,

I think you're right - the N Gauge Journal is a fantastic product and coverage there could make a big difference.

After Warley I think Mike and I are both starting to feel "cautiously optimistic" - a lot of people we spoke to were unaware of the project and very interested - and we rammed home the point that it needs people to step up.  It's no good waiting for "someone else" to do it.

We have long known that the internet is OK up to a point, but there are large numbers (maybe even the majority) of potential customers who you don't reach online, and that attending major shows like Warley is vital if you want to reach your full customer base.

But I would urge anyone on this forum who is a member of a club just to double check that everyone knows about this, and how it works.

ADD:   And if they are suspicious of crowd-funding, as they might be, just show them the reviews of our TEA tankers - already delivered!

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on November 28, 2016, 02:52:08 pm
Hi Mark

As we said before Warley - we will take a view in mid-December on the numbers and next steps.  There are three choices open to us:

1. full refunds to all backers that have placed an order;
2. a stay of execution ie a decision that orders are getting better but are not yet at a level where we could authorise tooling and we will postpone a decision on whether to provide refunds for a limited time period (though we can't and won't do that indefinitely - we just don't want to be holding on to people's money); or
3. orders have picked up sufficiently post Warley and coverage in the NGS Journal that we can authorise tooling.

I would say we are well on the way to option 2 and possibly we will end up in a few weeks mid-way between 2 and 3 (or even better at stage 3!). Ultimately orders will be the simple, decisive factor - the CAD is done and the factory are very keen for us authorise tooling as they went to get on with production!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on November 28, 2016, 03:17:29 pm
Hi Mark

As we said before Warley - we will take a view in mid-December on the numbers and next steps.  There are three choices open to us:

1. full refunds to all backers that have placed an order;
2. a stay of execution ie a decision that orders are getting better but are not yet at a level where we could authorise tooling and we will postpone a decision on whether to provide refunds for a limited time period (though we can't and won't do that indefinitely - we just don't want to be holding on to people's money); or
3. orders have picked up sufficiently post Warley and coverage in the NGS Journal that we can authorise tooling.

I would say we are well on the way to option 2 and possibly we will end up in a few weeks mid-way between 2 and 3 (or even better at stage 3!). Ultimately orders will be the simple, decisive factor - the CAD is done and the factory are very keen for us authorise tooling as they went to get on with production!

Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike & Ben,

Crikey, that's encouraging.  Options 2 and 3 sound very good to me although as (I think) John Cleese said "It's not the despair, it's the hope ...".   

My local model shop, Great Eastern Models in Norwich is having a DCC Special day this Friday with stands / presentations with people from Bachmann / Farish, Gaugemaster, Coastal DCC and Train Tech amongst others - I'll make some copies of the double page spread in the journal and hand them out to unsuspecting N gaugers present.  If you should have any spare leaflets I'd be happy to pay for the postage and hand those out instead and ask if the shop would display them, which I'm sure they would.

We'll get this over the line one way or another!

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on November 28, 2016, 03:50:26 pm
Just placed a further order for another Esso Black.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: bluedepot on November 28, 2016, 08:30:49 pm
i have ordered the unbranded black triple pack

they will go in an early 80s vacuum braked mixed freight, so hope they are suitable for that... if not i'll just trip work them on their own...

tbh i don't normally pay so much for my wagons, not 4 wheel ones anyway, i usually just wait for a sale / look on ebay to get them a bit cheaper later on after they are released... but i want to support this initiative and they do look good

cheaper than a pendo or class 92 anyway...



tim
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 28, 2016, 09:31:24 pm
If you should have any spare leaflets I'd be happy to pay for the postage and hand those out instead and ask if the shop would display them, which I'm sure they would.

We'll get this over the line one way or another!

Mark

Hi Mark

Fantastic!  Please PM me your address and I will send some flyers.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on November 28, 2016, 11:06:27 pm
Hi Ben,

PM sent.

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on November 28, 2016, 11:13:46 pm
If you should have any spare leaflets I'd be happy to pay for the postage and hand those out instead and ask if the shop would display them, which I'm sure they would.

We'll get this over the line one way or another!

Mark


Hi Mark

Fantastic!  Please PM me your address and I will send some flyers.

Cheers

Ben A.


@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) - do you have a PDF of the flyer? I'd like to print one off & put it up at my local club.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 29, 2016, 12:42:14 am


Hi jrb,

I will try to upload one tomorrow.  The flyers are A5 with printing on both sides and a coloured background which willl soak up ink.  I will try to prepare a "printer friendly" A4 version that has the same information but prints on one side only.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on November 29, 2016, 12:58:32 am

I will try to upload one tomorrow.  The flyers are A5 with printing on both sides and a coloured background which willl soak up ink.  I will try to prepare a "printer friendly" A4 version that has the same information but prints on one side only.
Ben A.


@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94)  If you could manage to do that, we could all print one off and then drop it into our local model shop next time we visit. (Well, some of us don't actually have a 'local' model shop  :'(, but I do visit one in Northern Ireland occasionally - if I had a copy of the flyer, I would make a point of going to the shop).
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on November 29, 2016, 09:02:25 am
Great idea Danny Boy, I could give one to my local shop.

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on November 29, 2016, 09:25:28 am
Yes I would download one and ask DCC Supplies if they'd put one on display.
(My only Model Shop within miles!!)

Barry
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Only Me on November 29, 2016, 03:15:20 pm
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_29_11_16_3_07_06.pdf (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_29_11_16_3_07_06.pdf)

poster is linked above Gentlemen


@Barry M (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2806) @REGP (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1145) @dannyboy (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4209) @jrb (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4986)


Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 29, 2016, 03:51:29 pm


Hello all,

With big thanks to Paul (onlyme) this link should take anyone interested to a downloadable A4 PDF for the Class B project:

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_29_11_16_3_07_06.pdf (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_29_11_16_3_07_06.pdf)

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on November 29, 2016, 11:30:53 pm
@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) , @Only Me (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328) ,

Many thanks - managed to print this out earlier & put it up tonight in the club room. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on November 30, 2016, 12:29:47 am

Hi jrb,

That's great, thanks.  Every little helps, as they say!

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on November 30, 2016, 08:28:03 am
Many thanks for the link. I will print it out and take to the shop in Enniskillen on Saturday.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: REGP on November 30, 2016, 09:41:05 am
@Only Me (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328)  @Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94)

My thanks as well. Poster printed and I'll take it into local shop at weekend.

Ray
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: JBQFC on November 30, 2016, 01:08:01 pm
well i have just weakened and order two triple packs of the United Molasses tanks 
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: RichardBattersby on December 01, 2016, 11:46:44 am
I thought RevolutioN got good coverage in the latest journal, including the class Bs. Worth a read.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 01, 2016, 12:16:22 pm

Hi Richard,

Yes, the spread in the NGS Journal is fantastic and will hopefully make many "nonline" members aware of what we are offering.   I hope they will understand, or be receptive to, the point too that unless they sign up these projects may not happen.

cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: RichardBattersby on December 01, 2016, 12:29:51 pm

Hi Richard,

Yes, the spread in the NGS Journal is fantastic and will hopefully make many "nonline" members aware of what we are offering.   I hope they will understand, or be receptive to, the point too that unless they sign up these projects may not happen.

cheers

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

Yes, I think that's the crucial bit. I am one of those people that didn't realise it wasn't a definite and so rested on my laurels. This is also my first foray with crowd funding but now I 'get it' I'm fully on board. I hope others will too and the journal will help with that.

If you want one (or many) of RevolutioNs wonderful models then you need be proactive.  ;)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on December 02, 2016, 08:24:32 am


Hello all,

With big thanks to Paul (onlyme) this link should take anyone interested to a downloadable A4 PDF for the Class B project:

[url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_29_11_16_3_07_06.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_29_11_16_3_07_06.pdf[/url])

Cheers

Ben A.


Hi Ben,

The poster doesn't mention that the wagons are N gauge.  Maybe it could be amended slightly if you or Paul have a moment?

Thanks,

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on December 02, 2016, 08:32:58 am
There's a a rather large N bottom right hand corner
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on December 02, 2016, 08:44:24 am
There's a a rather large N bottom right hand corner

Indeed there is a large 'N', but it doesn't explicitly state N Gauge anywhere.  I'm sure some people will assume it's OO gauge.

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: acko22 on December 02, 2016, 09:14:44 am
Mark,

You are right but you never know by going on the revolution website seeing just a few of the models we have available in N gauge these days and the quality, we may just tempt a few OO gauge modellers over from the dark side!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: RichardBattersby on December 02, 2016, 09:23:42 am
Well RevolutioN really are trying. I've just opened up my free Hornby magazine from Warley to find them being discussed on the Editor's page but also there's a section on the Class Bs on page 9!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 02, 2016, 11:23:44 am
Given Heljan are doing them in OO I don't think anyone will think we are duplicating them.  Also clearly in the N gauge section of our shop!

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on December 02, 2016, 11:37:12 am
Another brief mention in the January RM which came through the letter-box this morning.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on December 02, 2016, 11:38:52 am
That logic does not necessarily follow.

Revolution are going head to head in N on the class 92 with DJM, for example.
DJM went head to head with Hornby on the Class 71 in OO. Oh, and the King.

Revolution should nevertheless be congratulated on the publicity generated in the last few weeks.
If it doesn't run, then perhaps Heljan will produce it in N, and we get another manufacturer entering the market.

I would like some Heljan locos put through the shrink ray. The Co-Bo, 05, 07, 15, 16, Lion, Kestrel, and Falcon are there without even crossing swords with other promised locos like the clayton and the baby deltic.

Bob


Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: westie7 on December 02, 2016, 02:26:31 pm
Given Heljan are doing them in OO ....

Hopefully the ladder and walkway would be less clumsy than that OO example    :o
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on December 03, 2016, 08:49:31 pm
Heljan have told me they have no interest in N so I think we really need this to fund or go with out. Thats not put the if but option out there as that may damage the cause.

Come on folks, we can do it together.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on December 03, 2016, 08:58:37 pm
There's a a rather large N bottom right hand corner

Indeed there is a large 'N', but it doesn't explicitly state N Gauge anywhere.  I'm sure some people will assume it's OO gauge.

Mark

Mark has a point. I printed some flyers and took them to a model shop this afternoon. The proprietor said he would bring the contents to the attention of people, but did ask as to what gauge they were! Of course, we all know that they are n gauge..........
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Only Me on December 04, 2016, 10:34:31 am
The poster attached is the modified one with "N Gauge" in the wording

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_04_12_16_10_32_08.pdf (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/videos/1328_04_12_16_10_32_08.pdf)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 04, 2016, 03:44:56 pm

Hello all,

Thanks to Paul (only me) for providing the link to the revised poster, which does clearly state it's N gauge.  As others have rightly said, something of an oversight on version 1!

On another note, I have often spoken to Heljan reps at Warley in the past and asked if they might consider producing models in N and the answer has always been "no" so I very much doubt their Class B will be shrunk down.

However during our recent trip to Brush Traction at Loughborough to measure the Class 92 there was some discussion about the eponymous loco produced at their "Falcon" works.

I did wonder whether Falcon could have the potential to be an interesting "one-off" purchase for those modelling the transition/BR Blue era.

In that case, I wonder whether Heljan may be more amenable to producing a model with CAD etc they already have, if crowdfunders provide the cash up front and  there is no investment needed by them?

Certainly if the Class B tankers are successful, and we show that our track record and way of working can crowdfund models of that period, then Falcon might be a good option as it is an interesting prototype which saw widespread use but is unlikely ever to trouble the major manufacturers.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on December 04, 2016, 04:37:54 pm
Probably needs a separate thread but here's deffo 1 x 2 tone green Falcon required.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob Tidbury on December 04, 2016, 05:25:05 pm
I'm sorry Ben I have allready got one Falcon in two tone Chesnut and Lime Green and one in blue which were done for me by John Hazelton of Silver Fox Models as demonstrators of his kits he also done two baby Deltics two Twenty fives ,Lion and Kestral  he made all of them at a special price for me because I was promoting the sale of his kits on our stand ,Falcon was a good seller then.
I can't remember if the Black ,and the Green Brown  Boveri Gas  turbines were his as well it was a long time ago .
B H Enterprises have now got written permission to reproduce his kits under the BHE brand .I know if you produced Falcon as a ready to run model it would of course be far superior to the kits there is no doubt about that especially with all of today's technology .
Ray has ordered me one Molasses tank wagon in with his order,hope that it will be produced I wish I could afford to order some of the Esso tanks as well but I'm afraid that is out of the question due to our limited finances now .
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on December 04, 2016, 05:57:57 pm

Hello all,

Thanks to Paul (only me) for providing the link to the revised poster, which does clearly state it's N gauge.  As others have rightly said, something of an oversight on version 1!

On another note, I have often spoken to Heljan reps at Warley in the past and asked if they might consider producing models in N and the answer has always been "no" so I very much doubt their Class B will be shrunk down.

However during our recent trip to Brush Traction at Loughborough to measure the Class 92 there was some discussion about the eponymous loco produced at their "Falcon" works.

I did wonder whether Falcon could have the potential to be an interesting "one-off" purchase for those modelling the transition/BR Blue era.

In that case, I wonder whether Heljan may be more amenable to producing a model with CAD etc they already have, if crowdfunders provide the cash up front and  there is no investment needed by them?

Certainly if the Class B tankers are successful, and we show that our track record and way of working can crowdfund models of that period, then Falcon might be a good option as it is an interesting prototype which saw widespread use but is unlikely ever to trouble the major manufacturers.

Cheers

Ben A.

On the same basis wouldn't a Class 28 be a better option?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on December 04, 2016, 06:33:21 pm
Falcon has already been done as a resin kit - a rather nice one.
As has Hawk, Lion, Kestrel and the twins. Although I would like a pair of the twins rtr. You could do a lot of liveries with the twins. I've tried to get Dapol biting on that one too.
I suspect the twins would get a better target audience than the other one off prototypes. They are iconic, like Deltic.

Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on December 04, 2016, 07:06:13 pm
Please let's keep this on topic..the Class B Tank Wagons.

Don't want this to drift at the expense of any coverage of the Class B.

Start another thread if you desire?

Barry

 :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on December 04, 2016, 08:02:43 pm
Put some flyers in AGR Model Railway Store in Leighton Buzzard, the proprietor Anthony was more than happy to support the project.

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: RichardBattersby on December 04, 2016, 09:05:13 pm
Ben / Mike,

I didn't get to see you at Warley as you looked rather busy but do you have any more images / CAD etc. that might help whet our appetites?  :D
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 04, 2016, 10:42:36 pm

Hi Richard,

These are the last ones I have on this device...

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/94-041216222446-46038194.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/94-041216222447-460662367.jpeg)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/94-041216222447-460681981.jpeg)

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on December 05, 2016, 12:01:58 am
Blimey, Ben... just gorgeous. Keep 'em coming!

#pleasesucceed  :thankyousign:

I should be counting those rivets!  :laugh3: #closetrivetcounter  :claphappy:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: RichardBattersby on December 05, 2016, 07:40:08 am
Gosh they look fantastic, thank you. I may have to order some more.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Les1952 on December 08, 2016, 11:13:05 pm
I started off with three Esso ones on order.

Then I realised the singleton had a different running number.

Three became four.

I've added since Warley a trio and singleton of the unbranded ones.

That makes eight, enough to start a train (filling with other types for the time being).  This will look nice roaring through Croft Spa in a couple of years' time with a Class 33 or two at the head - yes, Class 33s did get as far as Teesside and even to Tyne Yard on through trains, though they more often were changed off at York.

Les
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on December 09, 2016, 12:19:43 am
I started off with three Esso ones on order.

Then I realised the singleton had a different running number.

Three became four.

I've added since Warley a trio and singleton of the unbranded ones.

That makes eight, enough to start a train (filling with other types for the time being).  This will look nice roaring through Croft Spa in a couple of years' time with a Class 33 or two at the head - yes, Class 33s did get as far as Teesside and even to Tyne Yard on through trains, though they more often were changed off at York.

Les

Didn't 33s get to Scotland on the Northfleet - Oxwellmains cement? Sorry, off topic.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Les1952 on December 09, 2016, 11:14:30 pm
I started off with three Esso ones on order.

Then I realised the singleton had a different running number.

Three became four.

I've added since Warley a trio and singleton of the unbranded ones.

That makes eight, enough to start a train (filling with other types for the time being).  This will look nice roaring through Croft Spa in a couple of years' time with a Class 33 or two at the head - yes, Class 33s did get as far as Teesside and even to Tyne Yard on through trains, though they more often were changed off at York.

Les

Didn't 33s get to Scotland on the Northfleet - Oxwellmains cement? Sorry, off topic.

They certainly got as far as Tyne Yard on Cemflos - this was the train whose return working finished off DP2 when the Cemflos fell off in front of it North of York. I think it had a Class 37 on that day.

One of these, either the oil or the cement, when running in steam days had to have 9Fs taken off because they couldn't cope with the load and schedule.  The replacements? (which coped perfectly), Thompson A2s - then eventually Class 33s in pairs working through.

Now, how about following the B Tanker with a Cemflo?

Les
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Dalek on December 12, 2016, 10:02:49 pm
When is the cut off date for this ? Just with Christmas etc coming up we are all skint !

Craig
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on December 12, 2016, 10:23:10 pm
Read the thread, all will be revealed!
Basically you need to buy now, not next month, not next week & not tomorrow!! NOW!!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 12, 2016, 10:47:29 pm
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on December 12, 2016, 10:52:24 pm
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike


Mike,

Thanks so much for the update. It's not quite what I'd hoped for, but at least you're not cancelling it yet. Hopefully a February cut-off will give time for people to get their orders in...
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on December 12, 2016, 10:57:23 pm
Okay, my arm is twisted enough - I will put in another order for a set of 3 - might go for the Esso ones this time  :thumbsup:  :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on December 12, 2016, 11:37:15 pm
I've just placed my third (and final... :uneasy:) order.

Now got 3x triples & a single in Esso, and 2x triples & a single in unbranded. I think 17 really is my limit...

At least if it doesn't go ahead I'll get a sizeable payment back, which I can then spend on other stock. It's almost like a savings scheme!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on December 13, 2016, 01:57:13 am
Okay, my arm is twisted enough - I will put in another order for a set of 3 - might go for the Esso ones this time  :thumbsup:  :)

Gone and done it - think I might have to tell SWMBO that she has bought me 3 unbranded ones for my birthday, (hopefully they will be with us before next May  ??? :worried:).
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 13, 2016, 08:10:51 am
hopefully they will be with us before next May

Hi Danny

Absolutely no chance - even if we had been able to start tooling straight away from the completion of CAD we would still have been lucky to have received them by Summer 2017. By adding a potential 5-6 month delay into the process to wait for sufficient orders to justify tooling you can see the knock on effect will be that production won't be until late 2017/early 2018 (even that is quick progress).

At the moment we are at orders of under 50% of what we need to sell to make the project financially viable. Between where we are now and the number we need to make the project viable there is a number of orders that Ben and I would be prepared to take the risk that we would sell enough further wagons to enable us to authorise tooling - bluntly the sooner we reach that number the sooner we can start tooling (if we get there before Feb 2017 then we will start straight away).  If we don't reach that number by end of Feb 2017 then we refund everyone as we won't hold peoples' monies indefinitely.

Once we reach our internal sales target we will authorise tooling, but of course we will still need to sell more to make the project viable and the order book will remain open until we start production.

Please don't forget you don't have to pay the full amount now, you can pay a 50% deposit now and the balance when we start production.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Dalek on December 13, 2016, 10:50:08 am
Read the thread, all will be revealed!
Basically you need to buy now, not next month, not next week & not tomorrow!! NOW!!

I have been reading it on and off over its course but its 16 pages now and i don't think a simple question is too much to ask  :)
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on December 13, 2016, 10:52:34 am
Read the thread, all will be revealed!
Basically you need to buy now, not next month, not next week & not tomorrow!! NOW!!

I have been reading it on and off over its course but its 16 pages now and i don't think a simple question is too much to ask  :)

Hi

Post above yours gives February 2017 as the cutoff date.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Dalek on December 13, 2016, 11:01:31 am
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike :)
I will come and seek you out at the Glasgow show  :wave:

The tanks look great, actually much better than great, they look fantastic !  :thumbsup: :greatpicturessign:

Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

Having said that i do intend on buying some, quality is better than quantity ! (unless its far away in the distance!). I just need to recover after x-mas ! :o

Craig
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Dalek on December 13, 2016, 11:02:36 am
Read the thread, all will be revealed!
Basically you need to buy now, not next month, not next week & not tomorrow!! NOW!!

I have been reading it on and off over its course but its 16 pages now and i don't think a simple question is too much to ask  :)

Hi

Post above yours gives February 2017 as the cutoff date.

Cheers

Paul

Yes, i know that now.  :thankyousign:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on December 13, 2016, 11:24:13 am
Really appreciate the update Mike.

The only additional thing I can think of to stretch the sales potential would be to approach Hattons/Rails/Osborns/Kernow with the opportunity for them to buy a proportion of the production for resale at the RRP. That might reduce the return to you guys but could get the numbers you require. An exclusive deal with one of them might be the way to go?

The alternative (not my recommendation) would be to buy a tranche yourselves and sell them on EBay - the TEA tankers were glowing red last weekend on that site.

Just a thought.
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 13, 2016, 11:53:45 am
Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

Hi Craig

That may well be the case and in an ideal world we would love to be able to price things at a lower price (I mean who doesn't want cheaper models!), but we have already swallowed a double price increase (from currency fluctuations (or we will if we get to tooling) and from increases to tooling and production costs) without putting our price up.

We don't want to start compromising on quality and our business model is very different from Peco's (or Farish). We are doing comparatively short runs which have to pay off the tooling on the first run (as there may never be a second run!). When you look at the price of Farish's Covhop (RRP £21.95) then we think this is a comparable standard of model and a reasonable price for modern tooling.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 13, 2016, 12:13:05 pm
Possibly they are not "sexy" or stunning enough to turn heads.  Let me explain;

At three recent shows I have seen TEA tankers turn heads and prompt questions.  They are distinct and desirable.  the Class 92, Pendalino etc will all get noticed and will have people reaching for their wallets.  I am not sure the B tankers are that distinctive.

Having said that I have reserved nine of the Mobil Charringtons Red B tanks as my grandfather was the Scottish manager for transport for Mobil from the 30's to the 60's so I have a personal reason for those particular models.

PECO are good they are very basic, lack detail and they do not have NEM pockets although they keep saying some day for this feature..
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 13, 2016, 12:17:53 pm
Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

<snipped>

Craig

Hi Craig,

No one is going to shoot you down, and that is an excellent point.  I think there are lots of factors involved in this, and one undoubtedly seems to be that a significant sector of this part of the market is esopecailly price conscious.

Mike has already given a good assessment of the figures, but in addition I would add that the point of Revolution is to offer adult modellers who care about detail and accuracy high-end models that are not compromised to save a few pounds.

In my view this is the key to re-defining N gauge as a scale that offers the best combination of fidelity and space saving; and therefore growing the market and attracting discerning modellers from other scales.

Cheaper models, with more basic or generic detail, or that may not be quite right for a particular era or operation, will always be available and if that is what a particular sector of the market prefers then fair enough; so be it.

In terms of arranging for exclusive models we are not averse to this possibility and if approached would certainly consider the options, however the core principle is that our direct supporters will always get the best deal.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 13, 2016, 12:39:15 pm
The only additional thing I can think of to stretch the sales potential would be to approach Hattons/Rails/Osborns/Kernow with the opportunity for them to buy a proportion of the production for resale at the RRP. That might reduce the return to you guys but could get the numbers you require. An exclusive deal with one of them might be the way to go?

The alternative (not my recommendation) would be to buy a tranche yourselves and sell them on EBay - the TEA tankers were glowing red last weekend on that site.

Hi Bob

Retail - I'd hope that our existing retailers (and we have added a couple more since the TEAs!) will pick up some orders, but many of the retailers are in as difficult a position as the rest of us ie strapped for cash and may be reluctant to fund things upfront - that is OK, that is why we always make sure that people who order direct from us get the best prices as they are the people trusting us with their money and making sure the projects can go ahead.  The retailers (in most, not all cases) are "topping up" the order book - with the TEAs the retail orders were the difference between breaking even and making a small surplus that we could invest in the next projects (Class B tank CAD as it happened!).

The TEA sales on Ebay have got very interesting and of course what people do with their models once they have paid for them is entirely up to them.

Cheers, Mike

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on December 13, 2016, 12:42:04 pm
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike :)
I will come and seek you out at the Glasgow show  :wave:

The tanks look great, actually much better than great, they look fantastic !  :thumbsup: :greatpicturessign:

Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

Having said that i do intend on buying some, quality is better than quantity ! (unless its far away in the distance!). I just need to recover after x-mas ! :o

Craig

You can't get Peco Class B 35T Tank wagons....??
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on December 13, 2016, 12:46:58 pm
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike :)
I will come and seek you out at the Glasgow show  :wave:

The tanks look great, actually much better than great, they look fantastic !  :thumbsup: :greatpicturessign:

Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

Having said that i do intend on buying some, quality is better than quantity ! (unless its far away in the distance!). I just need to recover after x-mas ! :o

Craig

You can't get Peco Class B 35T Tank wagons....??

Hi

No they don't however I think the point was that other people would see the Peco tank wagon at £8 and think well I can have that for that price why should I pay over twice that for one.

To some people one four wheel tank is the same as another and they are quite happy with something that looks like a tanker. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this view.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Dalek on December 13, 2016, 01:16:20 pm
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Thanks for the reply Mike :)
I will come and seek you out at the Glasgow show  :wave:

The tanks look great, actually much better than great, they look fantastic !  :thumbsup: :greatpicturessign:

Looking at it from another perspective though i could get peco tank wagons for about £8 each, yours is more than double that. Now before you all shoot me to death perhaps thats how people are maybe holding back and not placing oders, i don't know ?

Having said that i do intend on buying some, quality is better than quantity ! (unless its far away in the distance!). I just need to recover after x-mas ! :o

Craig

You can't get Peco Class B 35T Tank wagons....??

Hi

No they don't however I think the point was that other people would see the Peco tank wagon at £8 and think well I can have that for that price why should I pay over twice that for one.

To some people one four wheel tank is the same as another and they are quite happy with something that looks like a tanker. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this view.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul

Yes thats the point i was trying to make. One tanker = £8, another = £16-£18 (can't remember exactly).
Both tankers, not the same item modelled but both are tankers and it depends on what you want, thats the point i was trying to make. Quality / detail vs cheaper not so detailed, no nem pockets etc.

I don't currently have a layout, i used to do this kind of thing a long time ago when n gauge was lima, minitrix etc and pretty coarse compared to todays standards ( still have some of mine from then). However i do want to build a layout at some point in the future (we do have a very small n layout for my 10 year old in his bedroom) and i would really love these tankers as i would rather have fewer detailed models than lots of not so detailed models. I do intend to order some after the christmas period is over.
It would be great if these were stocked/available somewhere after the origional batch so you could buy some later on to add to your collection/rake , but i guess you can't have everything unfortunetly!

Craig
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: njee20 on December 13, 2016, 01:38:39 pm
That doesn't really explain the different buying pattern versus modern stuff though. I'm not sure I buy that justification. If Peco did a Class B tank then maybe people would struggle to justify the more expensive Revolution ones, but that's not the case.

To take the TEA comparator, people could buy the Farish offering for £10 less per wagon than the Revolution one, but they still (collectively) bought thousands of the Revolution ones.

It's certainly curious. I can think of no inherent reason this isn't a rousing success, and feel for people who want them. I'm not one of them though sadly.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob Tidbury on December 13, 2016, 02:29:36 pm
Can I add my penny worth of thoughts to this ,I think it's a combination of the fact that a lot of people have bought the TEAs ,the fact that Christmas is fast approaching , in my case the Union Mills Dukedogs came on the scene and my family bought two of those for me for Christmas other wise I would have definately had a few of the proposed tanks . Apart from my son and daughter the rest of my family are living on their state pensions ,and every thing is coming out far to quickly and unless you know well in advance what's coming out you make a choice of what you know Is available ,then something else you would love to own comes out but you've allready spent the little funds you have available. I have actualy asked a friend to add one tank onto his order and I hope if they go ahead I have sold one of my spare Locos in time to pay for it.
Other wise I'm in big trouble and will have to owe him the money.
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: njee20 on December 13, 2016, 02:39:41 pm
But people are buying 92s and HOAs? And as TEAs and class B tanks never coexisted surely people would probably have committed to a large order of either/or, or be in the fortunate position of being able to buy both purely to support Ben and Mike.

I imagine the people who have effectively spent all of their budget on TEAs and thus can't afford class B tankers is a very small number indeed.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on December 13, 2016, 02:44:46 pm
Hi Craig and all

Ben and I had a review of the latest figures at the weekend and we have to confess that we are in a real quandary with this wagon. 

The bad news is that we are still not at a level of sales where we could justify tooling. The good news is that we have seen an increase in orders recently.

We really don't want to cancel the project and refund people, but we have to be realistic. What is becomingly increasingly clear is that the pattern of orders is different to our modern wagons with far fewer orders for sizeable numbers of the Class B than our TEAs (or the expressions of interest in our HOAs).

So we are going to give the project until the end of February before we make a final decision - that allows us to talk to people at Glasgow and allows customers to get Christmas out of the way.

Cheers, Mike

Appreciate the update Mike - am delighted you're giving the project every opportunity to make it over the line and like others am happy to wait.  Hopefully things will pick up when the financial mayhem of Christmas is behind us.

It is perplexing, though, that orders are still so sluggish compared to the TEAs, HOAs etc. Maybe, as some have suggested, us transition era modellers are after all just a little less willing than our modern image colleagues to engage with newer, less established approaches such as crowdfunding. 

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 13, 2016, 02:50:10 pm
I think Bob has a point

End of year/TINGS is the time to announce "in the shops for Christmas" not "available Christmas 2018"

As I have said elsewhere I sell my own models and kits so I recirculate funds but I'm a rarity and Q4 is not the time for new model deposits.

I also think Locomotives get a higher priority than rolling stock.

I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 13, 2016, 03:03:13 pm
How about a REVOLUTIONary approach?

My guess is the four cost points for these models are

CAD
Tooling
Painting/decoration
Assembly

Why not offer an unmade unpainted kit option?

It increases the sales to cover the tooling and removes the cost of Painting/Decoration and assembly.  Packaging can be simplified as well, and sell them in packs of six.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: woodbury22uk on December 13, 2016, 03:03:53 pm
As someone who uses modern mainly British and French models, I have still committed to all 4 of the United Molasses tanks for a diorama which will recreate a scene from my working life in the late 1970s, early 1980s.

I think for transition era modellers these Class Bs would be an essential vehicle for any goods activity. Maybe there really are not quite as many modelling the era as is generally thought.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: njee20 on December 13, 2016, 03:12:26 pm
I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

I know Ben and Mike have been upfront about not wanting to sit on money indefinitely. They opened the order book in September, by June they'll have potentially had customers' money for 9 months. There'll always be something around the corner which means it's less than ideal circumstances.

It's certainly not an enviable position for them.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on December 13, 2016, 03:18:22 pm
I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

I know Ben and Mike have been upfront about not wanting to sit on money indefinitely. They opened the order book in September, by June they'll have potentially had customers' money for 9 months. There'll always be something around the corner which means it's less than ideal circumstances.

It's certainly not an enviable position for them.

I understand, but I am not hearing a clamor for refunds. Its not as if we are losing much interest by not having the money in the bank.

It would be a shame to let the work they have already done go to waste because they just believed buyers would be worried by the delay.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on December 13, 2016, 03:21:18 pm
I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

I know Ben and Mike have been upfront about not wanting to sit on money indefinitely. They opened the order book in September, by June they'll have potentially had customers' money for 9 months. There'll always be something around the corner which means it's less than ideal circumstances.

It's certainly not an enviable position for them.

I understand, but I am not hearing a clamor for refunds. Its not as if we are losing much interest by not having the money in the bank.

It would be a shame to let the work they have already done go to waste because they just believed buyers would be worried by the delay.

I'd be happy for them to keep my deposit for a year if it meant this going ahead
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on December 13, 2016, 03:59:10 pm
Re my comment in Reply 227 and Mikes response in 228 - I meant May 2018, (well I didn't know I meant that when I typed the reply!  ;D). I knew the process would be a bit long winded, but I did not realise just what was involved - makes me even more appreciative of what Mike and Ben are trying to do  :thumbsup:.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 13, 2016, 04:12:49 pm
End of year/TINGS is the time to announce "in the shops for Christmas" not "available Christmas 2018"

I would guess the end of June 2017 is a more realistic date for assessing viability.

TINGS is the foremost opportunity for N gauge modellers to all be in one place and for us to get feedback from people.  We could start to launch projects away from the shows but our feeling has been that it has worked well for our other models.

The problem with extending deadlines before starting tooling is that inevitably it also delays development, tooling and production further down the line. Furthermore we don't want to have lots of projects (or cash) piling up on us at once - we are probably at our capacity to be able to manage projects at the moment (though the Pendolino development is pretty much finished with just a few niggles to sort before production).

The order book for the TEAs opened in Sept 2015 and closed in Jan/Feb 16 - there is never a perfect time for taking people's money!

My guess is the four cost points for these models are

CAD
Tooling
Painting/decoration
Assembly

Why not offer an unmade unpainted kit option?

It increases the sales to cover the tooling and removes the cost of Painting/Decoration and assembly.  Packaging can be simplified as well, and sell them in packs of six.

That only works if it does actually increase total sales rather than just divert sales from RTR to kits. On this project the costs are reasonably weighted towards tooling anyway so it wouldn't save much on assembly/painting.

Then there is an issue do you fail to meet minimum order numbers for particular liveries or does the unit cost for assembly/painting actually go up.

Adding more variation in packaging (regardless of it being simpler) is also a potential cost increase as well.

Sorry but I'm far from convinced that it really helps. If someone can make a compelling business case for it then I'd re-consider.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on December 13, 2016, 04:18:51 pm
Hi

I see too many posts on here and other forums saying if only I had the skills to build X,Y or Z kit or I can't finish it to the same standard as RTR.

I don't think producing this as a kit would generate any appreciable increase in sales.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on December 13, 2016, 04:31:43 pm
If the tanks were only sold in kit form I would have to cancel my orders, being physically unable to make kits from such small parts. I don't think I would be alone either :uneasy:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 13, 2016, 04:56:32 pm
For clarity there is no suggestion from us (Revolution) that we would only offer kits.

Our unpainted or plain white 321s have not exactly fared well so far and we know from discussions with other manufacturers that the reality is that unfinished items just don't sell that well (a pity because I agree from a modellers perspective that sometimes they would be really useful).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on December 13, 2016, 05:04:18 pm
If the tanks were only sold in kit form I would have to cancel my orders, being physically unable to make kits from such small parts. I don't think I would be alone either :uneasy:

Hi

Sorry I wasn't suggesting this I was replying to an earlier post that suggested kits might increase the sales.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mustermark on December 13, 2016, 05:15:45 pm
If the tanks were only sold in kit form I would have to cancel my orders, being physically unable to make kits from such small parts. I don't think I would be alone either :uneasy:

I agree Nobby. I think this works well like Ben has outlined... perfect RTR models of far greater quality and fidelity than most of us could put together. For a start Tampo printing is a key element to this - far better than waterslide decals.

RevolutioN can keep my deposit for as long as they need it to keep the project alive; I'm even thinking of just getting work to send them my pay directly!  :-[

Sadly, I think by mid-Feb it will be clear that the demographic that would want these does not fit the business model.  Here's why I think it is - it's all been said before, though.

The older generation (like me and older) are the most likely to be modelling an era suitable for these (I know that they stretched long into the 80's but by then there were the older TEAs that might be more contemporary. So, assuming that *most* transition era folks wanting these are older folks, they fall into a couple of categories that would make them unfavorable for this business model... they are perhaps on their pension already, like Bob; or they are not engaging well with internet forums or crowdfunding. Not all old folks are Luddites or untrusting of new ways of funding models - I just think these factors are significant.

On the other hand, with the more modern stuff like the Pendo, the 92, or the new TEAs, these folks are more likely to be a good decade or two younger than me. They probably have jobs (not pensions) and maybe they're doing well later in their careers and have more disposable income. They are likely to have been on the internet for most of their adult lives (if not longer). They will be more likely to be receptive to / trusting of the crowdfunding thing.

I'm not too surprised the buying pattern is totally different between transition era and modern era. Sad as it is, but I think this project is suffering from those factors.

I will be making the most of what does come our way, even if that means Reading has to be 'relocated' to the WCML from time to time.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 13, 2016, 06:14:52 pm
Hello all,

Some really interesting points in this thread.

I think Mustermark has absolutely hit the nail on the head re the different spending patterns of the demographics.

Other factors that I feel are relevant:

1). There are already tanker models available for the 60s modeller to use a little "modeller's licence."

2). The Class B tankers are relatively unglamorous workhorse wagons.  To some they will be important, but others may struggle to justify the investment ahead of, say, some new coaches or a loco.

3). Money upfront for models is still an alien concept to many.

And just to answer a couple of other points:

February is the cut off.  It is great that people want us to keep their money for longer, but we aren't comfortable with this.

We aren't doing kits, which would be more likely to impact negatively on RTR sales than boost overall sales, or unpainted models which *should* be popular but every single time they have been tried have failed.

There is some great coverage of this project in the NGS Journal, and in this month's Model Rail.   Let's hope this and other publicity gets the project over the line.  Mike and I are really grateful for all the support, and want it to work,  but if the market isn't there, it isn't there!

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on December 13, 2016, 09:25:29 pm
Hi Ben

Personally I am grateful that you have allowed a "stay" until February. I would be very happy for you to hold my money for longer but I would have to accept that if it hasn't reached the necessary critical mass by then it is unlikely to.

As to the model's appeal, I would have thought it ideally positioned to gain support from modellers of the transition period all the way through Corporate Blue to Sectorisation. By any measure that is a very serious chunk of the British N Market.

Given the success of the recent Thompson BG I don't think it can possibly be a case that the size of Transition plusCorporate Blue is over estimated which has to bring one to the conclusion that it is something about the crowdfunding model that just does not appeal so much to a certain demographic. This is all the more strange given that the same people are happy to pay a 30% ish deposit for an NGS commissioned model and balance on delivery...

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on December 13, 2016, 09:52:49 pm
Mustermark is right in that, making a generalisation, transition modellers tend to be of a 'certain age' with limited funds. I still maintain, as I said on page 10 of this thread, that the 'block' train of, say, 9 TEA bogie wagons would cost around £250 whereas the same length train of Class Bs is nearer to £395.
My only block trains are 30 or so Butterleys, 20 or so unfitted vans, 20 x 21T hoppers and 9 x Freightliner containers. (No glamorous wagons here, Ben!). I'd love a block train of the Class Bs but would have to sell body parts to achieve this (and my body parts are in poor nick :-[)
So, to sum up, it is funds and layout size preventing this transition era chap from going wild.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: dannyboy on December 13, 2016, 09:53:52 pm
@Ben A (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=94) I realise that you will have costs 'up front', but it may be the thought of paying a 50% deposit that is putting some people off  ???.  As you said earlier,  "Money upfront for models is still an alien concept to many". Just a thought. Whatever though, I do not mind waiting as we need this to go ahead!  :beers:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 13, 2016, 11:32:57 pm

Hi all,

Dannyboy - there isn't another way, at least not if you want to manage the projects with financial probity.

Mike and I have funded the production of the CADs (which in relative terms is not a huge amount) from the small surplus on the TEA project.

But beyond that our projects are ringfenced - the Class Bs can only happen if enough people want them enough to put the money in upfront to pay for the tooling, and then the production.  That is why we need the 50% now and 50% later.  It really is that simple.

It is also why, if you look at the news pages of our site, we work hard to keep them current and show people where their money is being spent every step of the way - whether they are backing 00 TEA tankers, N gauge KFA flats, Pendolinos, 92s or other models.

Newport Nobby - yes, if you want a train of comparable length to the long bogie TEAs then you will need to spend more.  The connection between size and cost is not linear, sadly!  On the other hand, were trains as long in the 1960s as they are now?  Maybe they were?

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Byegad on December 14, 2016, 09:34:47 am
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on December 14, 2016, 09:41:04 am
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

But the Class B 35T IS unique in N Gauge.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Byegad on December 14, 2016, 09:44:38 am
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

But the Class B 35T IS unique in N Gauge.

Agreed, but not 'unique enough' (Yes I know you can't qualify unique.).
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on December 14, 2016, 09:48:07 am
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.


Quod erat demonstrandum.
It's Mike & Ben's fault for choosing a wagon people want long rakes of but just can't afford :nerner: ;)

On the other hand, were trains as long in the 1960s as they are now?  Maybe they were?


Oh yes. I recall many a freight train that just seemed interminable, and am sure many remember coal trains composed of 4 wheeled wagons that clanked through stations for so long and so loudly you couldn't hear yourself think. Of course, this wouldn't have occurred with the class Bs owing to the sheer weight of each wagon (assuming full) but I'm sure I'm not alone in wishing I could afford a rake of 20 or more.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on December 14, 2016, 12:04:50 pm
It's Mike & Ben's fault for choosing a wagon people want long rakes of but just can't afford :nerner: ;)

Actually it was Scott and I who identified this wagon to be missing from the must have list and Mike and Ben simply agreed and have provided the platform to help make it happen.
I would argue this is more useful and more travelled than a Covhop - well to me it is, and surely that is what matters :)

However, with more and more options for locos, coaches and wagons available, the ability of an N gauge modeller to model their specific area means sales will not be as large as if the wagon was introduced even ten years ago. And if you want a Regent tank, you can get a Peco approximation for half the price.

Maybe Mike and Ben need to accept lower production volumes, raise the price £5/wagon, and then if we get this wagon built, we might get Class A tanks at a lower price... I just don't know anymore.

There obviously is a post-production market out there - witness the Revolution TEAs selling on EBay - but who will take the risk and purchase several hundred to sell them on, when you only need one other person to buy them and sell them on a few pence cheaper on that auction site to scupper your risk taking.

Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 14, 2016, 12:31:36 pm

Hello all,

I don't want to come over all "hard sell" here and would urge anyone considering these wagons to buy them because they want them, not as an investment.

However, one guarantee Mike and I can make is that we will never sell them cheaper than they are now, and nor will retailers unless they are willing to sell at a loss.

I have been thinking about the comments suggesting, perfectly reasonably, that these wagons are "similar" to models that are lower priced and far less detailed.

This is true.  As I said before, there are, and will continue to be, cheaper "generic" options.

What we are seeking to develop is what might be considered a Britsh version of the continental market - that is high end models, that are accurate, offer exceptional levels of detailing and are clearly aimed at adult modellers who value these characteristics.

But this does have a price.  I think our wagons will always be closer to Fleischmann prices than Peco; but then we believe the quality will be remembered long after the price is forgotten.

It might be possible to produce models that are cheaper with plastic ladders, fewer or no separate parts, generic underframes etc but such models are not something I am interested in.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Steven B on December 14, 2016, 12:54:31 pm
I looked at this model with a view to buying in to the funding. IF I bought them I'd want at least 12, possibly 18.

But I have a rake of 13 Peco 15' tanks, some bought rtr and others kit built and several 10' tanks from a variety of manufacturers and some 12 or so continental based tanks. So yet another rake of tanks, even if they are the beautiful beasts that RevolutioN turn out, is hard to justify.

Now if RevolutioN can offer to produce some wagon/coach/loco that is truly unique them I'm in.

Doesn't that apply to most models? There are already tankers, opens, vans and coaches available so is there any need to make anything new?

What would make a wagon, coach or loco truly unique?

To many modellers a tank wagon is just a tank wagon and they're not bothered about the differences in time period and usage of say the current Farish tanks compared to the proposed Class B. These aren't the people who will be buying the new models as they'll already have what they need.

The people who do recognise the differences and to who it matters that the Class B pre-dates the Farish and Peco 15' tanks are the ones Revolution are targeting. Unfortunately there doesn't appear to be quite enough of them aware of the project and willing to pre-pay for a model that won't arrive for many months.

The trouble Revolution appear to have is that people grumble that they're not offering transition era models but when they do they don't get supported. You can't have one without the other.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Skyline2uk on December 14, 2016, 02:39:08 pm
Quote
quality will be remembered long after the price is forgotten

A more suitable quotation of Sir Henry Royce I couldn't wish to see.

As others have said, Revolution should be about producing the very best of what N can be and I for one certainly support this philosophy.

Whilst I have no interest in the Class Bs other than general Railway interest, I have committed to supporting the 92s.

I am sadly not wealthy enough to order any proposed product mearly to "help them over the line" (I would if I could), but should anything else be announced that is in my chosen modelling scope I will be right there.

The CADs for these tankers look impressive to me, clearly researched and not at all generic. For those modellers who want some of these in their fleet I have my fingers crossed.

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Byegad on December 14, 2016, 03:01:29 pm
What has been said about the relevance or otherwise of the choice of tanker is true and in a perfect and cash rich situation I'd be ordering 20 of what will/could be a great model. However,  given what stock I already own and the state of my finances I have other priorities for purchases.  I do hope that you get the necessary funding to go ahead with production.  All I'm saying is that the model isn't a sufficiently different item for me to buy it.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jpendle on December 14, 2016, 05:00:27 pm
Hmmm

How about this for a theory?

Sweeping generalisation coming up. :)

People model the transition era, as it allows then to construct relatively small but realistic layouts. This saves money for those who don't have unlimited resources. A realistic layout can be had with maybe 3 loco's 6 coaches, and maybe 24 wagons.

These layouts probably aren't roundy roundy, and it may be that a rake of 20 tanks, or even coal wagons, would look out of place as it would be too long.

As a result, if my presumptive presumptions are correct, then the typical transition era modeller would only have room for 4 or 5 wagons of any type on their layout.

By way of contrast, I'm modelling in N because I want a large layout, not necessarily a 'busy' one, but one that can accommodate realistic length modern trains and give them a large space to stretch their legs, I also model contemporary trains because that's what I can see.

As a result if I'm the typical N gauge modern era modeller I'll buy large rakes of wagons because that's what I see running around today. I typically try to acquire around 18 of any particular bogie wagon type. With Farish and Dapol products I spread out the purchases, with Revolution, I have to buy them all at once. But I'm lucky in that both my wife and myself work and our kids are grown and we have grandchildren. So I can justify indulging myself as the grandkids love playing trains when they are here.

So in conclusion to my great theory.

Transition era modellers models short trains and don't buy long rakes.
Modern modellers (the rest of Revolutions target audience) model long trains and buy long rakes of wagons.
Finally Class B tanks are half as big as TEA's so Revolution have to sell twice as many to make it viable  :D

REMEMBER THIS IS ALL TONGUE FIRMLY IN CHEEK

John P
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: acko22 on December 14, 2016, 05:07:44 pm
Be careful John the leash I am holding the transition modellers on will only take so much strain  :P
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Only Me on December 14, 2016, 06:22:13 pm
John has something there, ive only bought nine because in my just after transition era layout nine is a long enough rake i dont need 18+ and one rake will be enough!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 14, 2016, 06:26:12 pm
We are constantly being told that transition era modellers are the most numerous so even if they buy fewer the total number of modellers modelling that era should (in theory at least) more than make up for that.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on December 15, 2016, 06:12:18 pm
I really hope this project goes ahead. Having said that, it seems unfortunately that there's a reasonable chance it won't.

So, here's a question that I don't think has been asked before. If Mike/Ben/Revolution decide that they cannot take the project any further, what are the chances that they could pass/sell the project (including CAD drawings, supplier pricing, expressions of interest etc.) to the NGS, so they could take it forward?

They seem to have much more success with transition era models. It's been suggested that (in general) transition modellers are less likely to go for crowdfunding, and maybe the NGS is in a better position to offer this model through their funding method.

Obviously Revolution would need to refund all the deposits, but then everyone could re-order from the NGS. Revolution could get some of the money back that they've invested in the CAD work, the NGS would get a jump-start on another R-T-R model that would fit well with their existing range, and we'd get our tankers! Everyone wins...

Besides, it would be a shame for all that lovely CAD work to go to nothing...

It might be a little premature suggesting this now - as I said I really do hope Revolution can take it forward - but it might be an option to bear in mind IF the decision is taken to cancel it.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Western Exile on December 15, 2016, 07:10:10 pm
Sounds like a perfectly good "plan B" to me (no pun intended, honestly  ::)) Cue howls of protest from non-members of the NGS...
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on December 15, 2016, 07:37:53 pm
Sounds like a perfectly good "plan B" to me.

I see what you did there  :smiley-laughing:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on December 16, 2016, 09:21:24 am
Sounds like a perfectly good "plan B" to me (no pun intended, honestly  ::)) Cue howls of protest from non-members of the NGS...

Hi

Another good reason to join then  :D

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on December 16, 2016, 10:21:30 am
I really hope this project goes ahead. Having said that, it seems unfortunately that there's a reasonable chance it won't.

So, here's a question that I don't think has been asked before. If Mike/Ben/Revolution decide that they cannot take the project any further, what are the chances that they could pass/sell the project (including CAD drawings, supplier pricing, expressions of interest etc.) to the NGS, so they could take it forward?

They seem to have much more success with transition era models. It's been suggested that (in general) transition modellers are less likely to go for crowdfunding, and maybe the NGS is in a better position to offer this model through their funding method.

Obviously Revolution would need to refund all the deposits, but then everyone could re-order from the NGS. Revolution could get some of the money back that they've invested in the CAD work, the NGS would get a jump-start on another R-T-R model that would fit well with their existing range, and we'd get our tankers! Everyone wins...

Besides, it would be a shame for all that lovely CAD work to go to nothing...

It might be a little premature suggesting this now - as I said I really do hope Revolution can take it forward - but it might be an option to bear in mind IF the decision is taken to cancel it.

That is a nice idea, but I see a couple of pretty major stumbling blocks!

Firstly the potential conflict of interest - we have already had accusations from a few quarters that Ben and my involvement with the NGS's product development (Ben as Vice President and me as a Committee member for product development) and Revolution is a conflict.  Selling our (failed) work to the NGS feels like a potentially very difficult situation! We have been very careful to strictly delineate our NGS and Revolution work.

Secondly, if sales have been so low for Revolution I'm not sure in all good conscience that I could recommend that the NGS invested in the Class B (unless we are really convinced that it is the funding method and not a combination of other reasons eg there are already sufficient tanks out there for people who don't mind that they aren't 35t class B tanks).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on December 16, 2016, 10:34:00 am
Hello all,

The NGS will be unveiling its next RTR model in JOunral 1/'17.

We are giving the Class B tanks until at least February and still hopeful that the extra time will get them there.

In terms of passing on the CADs to the NGS, as an NGS Vice President I have a huge conflict of interest, so will say nothing other than this:  Our funding model works on sales of significantly less than the NGS would need; if we are unsuccessful then I would have very serious reservations about the NGS taking it on.

(EDIT: the above was written as Mike was making his post; but I think we are both of a like mind!)

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on December 16, 2016, 06:37:18 pm
Ben, Mike,

Fair enough. Sounds like there's several good reasons why that couldn't/shouldn't happen, then. I appreciate the time & honesty taken to answer my question.

Maybe I need to start buying lottery tickets....


Jonathan
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: rusticged on December 17, 2016, 04:36:49 pm
 :wave:
Ben & Mike
I am delighted that you are keeping this project open until the end of February, after the Glasgow Show. It deserves as much success as all the other Revolution projects.
I believe there is a very good chance of success with more orders arriving after modellers have got over the expense of Christmas. The deposit system is a great help, as people could order a few each month at the same time as saving up to pay the balance.
Keep up the good work gents, it is greatly appreciated.
Ged
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Cooper on December 25, 2016, 05:34:34 pm
If anyone has Xmas money to spend, and models the late 70's to early 90's, how about modelling one of these?

http://www.departmentals.com/photo/042155a (http://www.departmentals.com/photo/042155a)

Anything marked ZRW on the Departmental pages will most likely be one of these.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Thorpe Parva on January 11, 2017, 03:56:18 pm
Ben/Mike

Any chance of a status update on this project?

David
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on January 11, 2017, 04:59:50 pm
Hi David

There is not a huge amount to report since our last update ie that we will give the project until the end of February (ie after the Glasgow show) before we review sales figures and make a final decision whether to go ahead with tooling or not.

Sales figures have increased, but we are still not at a level we could comfortably authorise tooling - if we did authorise tooling on current sales we would be taking a massive risk. (By comparison the sales so far are less than half of those of our TEA or the expressions of interest in our HOA).

Cheers, Mike

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on January 11, 2017, 05:05:54 pm
I sincerely hope this goes ahead.
I have done everything I can think of to promote this....
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Mark on January 11, 2017, 07:41:15 pm
Thanks for the update Mike.  The comparison in orders / statements of interest is stark and pretty thought provoking Ė The B tanks were announced at TINGS and (I think) you only announced the HOAs around the end of November Ė early December?  The B tanks were by far the more numerous wagon, travelled almost the length and breadth of the country and covered a much wider timeframe, including the frequently modelled transition era.  They were announced shortly after the extremely positive response to the TEAs - very firm evidence, for the wary, that it stood (stands) every chance of being an outstandingly good model.

So why are sales so comparatively poor?

Are us transition era modellers that much less open to new practices such as crowdfunding than our modern era brethren?  Are we far more likely to do our shopping in more traditional environments?  Is the transition market perhaps relatively smaller than many believe? Or have Revolution and all of the good folk on this and other forums that have supported and promoted this project just failed to reach the right audience in anything like the numbers that Revolution have so spectacularly achieved with their other modern models?   

Maybe elements of all the above?

With the TEAs, Pendolino, PFAs, HOAs and even two different 92s there are now a number of crowdfunded modern image models that either have been or appear highly likely to be successful.

Letís just hope more of us transition modellers wake up to and invest in what would almost certainly be a wonderful model.     

Sorry for the lengthy rumination! 

Mark
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Chetcombe on January 12, 2017, 01:05:06 am
I admit I procrastinated on this one, wanting to see before I buy. But having seen the reviews of the TEA, I'm sold. Not sure if my 9 will make a difference, but it is worth a try!

Hopefully there are others out there who felt / feel the same way and like me decide to act!!

Dare one ask how far from the target Ben and Mike are on this one? Will completely understand if that is a commercial secret which can't be divulged!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on January 12, 2017, 11:01:56 am
Are us transition era modellers that much less open to new practices such as crowdfunding than our modern era brethren?  Are we far more likely to do our shopping in more traditional environments?  Is the transition market perhaps relatively smaller than many believe? Or have Revolution and all of the good folk on this and other forums that have supported and promoted this project just failed to reach the right audience in anything like the numbers that Revolution have so spectacularly achieved with their other modern models?   

Maybe elements of all the above?

I think you are right that it is a combination of all of the above. One other striking thing I've noticed is that buying patterns are very different between the 35t Class B and the TEAs - we just haven't really seen many of the "large" orders that we got for the TEAs.

I admit I procrastinated on this one, wanting to see before I buy. But having seen the reviews of the TEA, I'm sold.

Dare one ask how far from the target Ben and Mike are on this one? Will completely understand if that is a commercial secret which can't be divulged!

I completely understand that ideally people want to see before they buy - in an ideal world we would like to be able to take much greater risks on models (like the Class B) which we are convinced will sell well, but we are where we are and our business model only works by people trusting us to produce good models (as people have seen with the Pendolino development, we are not prepared to put something out we are not happy with).

I'm not going to give numbers, though there are enough hints on this thread and other threads (about what is generally necessary for our projects to go ahead) for people to get a good idea! It isn't so much about it being a commercial secret, but more that I'm not sure what the impact (good or bad) would be of giving out numbers ie will it encourage people to buy more to make it happen or discourage people from ordering any because they don't see it as likely to happen!

Apologies for sitting on the fence on that - the crucial message is that our projects only happen because our customers want them to and place orders for them. If anyone has any concerns or questions that might help tip them over the edge into ordering then please feel free to ask Ben and me (either on here or by PM).

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on January 12, 2017, 07:03:18 pm
I put some flyers in our local model shop and when asking a few weeks later was told that interest was being shown in the project but how does one then translate that into commitments?

Personally I don't think it is the size of the Market that is an issue as this particular model doesn't just appeal to a single one. It transcends all the most popular eras right into the 90s. I suspect that as a percentage of the total Market that's probably getting towards 75%. NGS models are mostly of transition prototypes and there seems no issue with them sales wise.

I think the buying pattern may reflect that the majority are not looking for block trains as they might be the TEA etc. Rather they are looking to have the tanks as a component of a typical mixed freight train, in the later Sectorisation timeframe maybe a Speedlink working or trip freight - six or so wagons rather than 15 plus.

Maybe too the greater choice of transition wagons is a factor and the Market is better satisfied? There are after all several types of lower capacity tanks in the Farish range plus later 35T types and the two types of Peco ones as well.

Is price also a bigger factor for some of us "stingy" transition modellers?

My last thought is that maybe there is a market but because of the greater choice a longer time is needed for them to sell through. This is fine for traditional manufacturers where it is accepted (and maybe even desirable) to hold stock in the warehouse to satisfy demand over a longer period, but just does not work for a crowdfunded route to market where fewer products to choose from means an up front "spike" due to pent up demand for certain well chosen models?

Like most I'm not 100% sure I understand but clearly there does appear to be a pattern emerging.

Whatever the reason I remain hopeful.

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: MacRat on January 12, 2017, 07:11:09 pm
If the buying pattern appears to be so much different, is attributing this only to people not liking to give money upfront or not knowing about the model alone is still applicable? If I understand correctly, the HOA is already above the threshold while the longer running class B campaign still isn't. How about to add the following attributes to the discussion:

* Layout size?
For post privatisation era quite few N gauge layouts have appeared that successfully depict the train in the landscape and show that a railway is there to move goods in bulk loads with long trains, see Heworth Siding (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkzuGlKax3I&feature=youtu.be), Hinksey Yard (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F047OlA6u20&t=4m47s), Banbury (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb8ukNSmhR0). These two trains in the video alone may account for about 50 TEAs, thats two orders for 25 wagons. While for the class B tank it appears more of 10 orders for 5 cars, with numbers chosen for easy calculation. Thats about 5x more people who have to be encouraged to order.

* Different type of trains in different eras?
Train load may have been not so omni present as in the post privatisation era. So people don't need so many wagons of one type to model an authentic train. The uniformity of a complete train of tank cars may also be considered as boring.

* Saturation of transition era market?
There where statements regarding the class B tank that it is not different enough to justify this model. People may have a lot of stuff already and either don't want to buy another 4 wheel tank car because it's not different or top of with a small number of wagons now and then, when they feel like it. With the class B tanks it is only now and never then. The market for post privatisation models appears to surge up~~~~~ Hype train is in full speed. I have the impression no transition model can excite a modeler this much anymore, it's always the wrong one.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Roy L S on January 12, 2017, 07:21:52 pm
Hi MacRat

I think many of your thoughts reflect my own in the preceding post.

I don't thou think transition modellers are alone as being in the "never satisfied" camp. The recently announced refurbished 31 appears to have attracted it's fair share of gripes for not being a "Skinhead" variant!

There's always someone!

All the best

Roy
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 12, 2017, 07:24:35 pm
How about just not sexy or distinctive enough.  I have always been of the view that railway modelers are quite vain and want people to complement them on their models.

If a TEA HOA 92 or Pendolino etc goes round a layout at a show, they will raise a comment, but I'm afraid a Class B tanker just does not cut it.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: MacRat on January 12, 2017, 07:43:28 pm
Roy L S, yes, our posts have crossed mid air.

I quite like the yellow class 31. I have watched one in 2010 in Didcot Parkway trying to start up, shunting to the main line with a test train and then drawing away by the platform I was standing on. I can't remember if it was 31233 or 31603, but a yellow class 31 model is probably going to the continent, but I digress.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on January 12, 2017, 07:51:40 pm
How about just not sexy or distinctive enough.  I have always been of the view that railway modelers are quite vain and want people to complement them on their models.

If a TEA HOA 92 or Pendolino etc goes round a layout at a show, they will raise a comment, but I'm afraid a Class B tanker just does not cut it.

Well if this comes off, I hope 18 Class B wagons hauled by a Class 33 will cut it and raise a comment or two!!!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 12, 2017, 07:58:33 pm
How about just not sexy or distinctive enough.  I have always been of the view that railway modelers are quite vain and want people to complement them on their models.

If a TEA HOA 92 or Pendolino etc goes round a layout at a show, they will raise a comment, but I'm afraid a Class B tanker just does not cut it.

Well if this comes off, I hope 18 Class B wagons hauled by a Class 33 will cut it and raise a comment or two!!!

I think they will but I get the impression they are currently failing the imagination test.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: acko22 on January 12, 2017, 08:51:27 pm
I did reply before, but took it down as well it was came across overly negative against the model.

I actually thing its a great model like other have said covering the 50s all the way to the early 90s on the national network, then how many still exist on preserved lines?

There are factors which ok do hamper the model, looking on it from my perspective transition era is one of the better catered eras a like of that due to the long life of examples from that period at either end with stuff coming across from steam era and well stuff lasting into the 90s and even to today, this makes it very attractive for Farish / Dapol as they can get more cash for their efforts, then you have kits which are more prevalent for this era than most right now.

This may be the single biggest factor that is causing the Class B to not be as big a hit as the TEA, which when you look in comparison while transition era modellers out number Modern era modellers, there is also a wider choice for transition era. While not a bad thing in anyway unless you are able to sit on a product and wait for the profits to trickle is as already said then its a no, no and for the business model that revolution are based around

But on the flip side unlike some of the items that is currently on offer the Class B is an all rounder seen everywhere in every type of formation from 30+ wagon oil train to the single wagon rural service, the fact it took members on here to put it forward and for Revolution to take it on surprises me a little, I am glad they have but its up to transition modellers to well take things forward.
Another side that may see people buy some soon as is the price rises that Farish have announced which well lets face it make the Class B a event better bargin!

If the model does fall short I put money on it there will be people who will say they should have put their money in for some to make things happen, this cant be blamed on Mike or Ben for their efforts I would just say purely the market. I know if I had the spare cash I would be tempted to buy a few just to help them over the line and then ell further down the line

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: PaulCheffus on January 12, 2017, 09:15:10 pm
I know if I had the spare cash I would be tempted to buy a few just to help them over the line and then sell further down the line

Hi

I must admit I am considering this option. My personal need for this type along with the class A tanker has been catered for with a kit all be it a 2mm scale one rather than N.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: njee20 on January 12, 2017, 09:19:38 pm
Likewise I'd be tempted to buy some to sell later, I have no need for them whatsoever, but clearly there's (some) demand.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: railsquid on January 13, 2017, 01:08:01 am
Can someone confirm that the tankers visible in this shot:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm (http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm)

are the Class B ones in question? They look very similar.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Barry M on January 13, 2017, 07:58:50 am
Can someone confirm that the tankers visible in this shot:

[url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url])

are the Class B ones in question? They look very similar.


Yes look like Class B's
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Carmont on January 13, 2017, 10:17:06 am
Can someone confirm that the tankers visible in this shot:

[url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url])

are the Class B ones in question? They look very similar.


Yes, they are exactly the wagons in question.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on January 13, 2017, 10:29:34 am
Can someone confirm that the tankers visible in this shot:

[url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url])

are the Class B ones in question? They look very similar.


The first one is a class A tank (the tank barrel is slightly longer and the livery is for a class A tank), the second a class B (standard black).

HTH
Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Carmont on January 13, 2017, 10:50:27 am
Can someone confirm that the tankers visible in this shot:

[url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrs2308.htm[/url])

are the Class B ones in question? They look very similar.


The first one is a class A tank (the tank barrel is slightly longer and the livery is for a class A tank), the second a class B (standard black).

HTH
Bob


Yes, Bob, quite right and thanks for the correction.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on January 13, 2017, 10:53:50 am
Who wouldn't want to model this lovely era?
At least there are rails on the railbed, not ripped up yet!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: railsquid on January 13, 2017, 12:00:24 pm
Thanks all, I think I can give a short-ish rake a shot. It will have to be a short-ish rake (probably 9 wagons) as the layout won't handle more, and I can't justify spending any more.

TBH I wasn't not really a transition era modeller, but have been beguiled by videos and pictures of stuff which ran on the GWR mainline through Birmingham in the 1960s, so anything from that era which would plausibly have run in the Birmingham area is fair game. I like the look of the wagons for some reason too, I'm sure I must have seen some and/or pictures of some.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on January 13, 2017, 12:13:34 pm
I am moving backwards in time too. I am now exploring the delights of the early crest period. Prototype diesels and crimson cream coaches!
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: NinOz on January 13, 2017, 12:50:37 pm
I'm not going to give numbers, though there are enough hints on this thread and other threads (about what is generally necessary for our projects to go ahead) for people to get a good idea! It isn't so much about it being a commercial secret, but more that I'm not sure what the impact (good or bad) would be of giving out numbers ie will it encourage people to buy more to make it happen or discourage people from ordering any because they don't see it as likely to happen!
Interesting that this lack of information was one contributor to my aborting the order process.  Not that my order of 12 or so would be significant in boosting towards target as it sounds like you still need around 500.

Regards,
CFJ
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: johnlambert on January 13, 2017, 01:22:39 pm
Thanks all, I think I can give a short-ish rake a shot. It will have to be a short-ish rake (probably 9 wagons) as the layout won't handle more, and I can't justify spending any more.

TBH I wasn't not really a transition era modeller, but have been beguiled by videos and pictures of stuff which ran on the GWR mainline through Birmingham in the 1960s, so anything from that era which would plausibly have run in the Birmingham area is fair game. I like the look of the wagons for some reason too, I'm sure I must have seen some and/or pictures of some.

From memory the real Fawley to Bomford Bridge trains could be up to 45 tankers, behind double-headed BRCW Type 3 locos (Class 33) with a Queen Mary brake van on the end.

We need a few people to buy enough tankers to recreate the full train and the project will soon meet the minimum order number.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: newportnobby on January 13, 2017, 02:02:58 pm
Although I've got 2 x triple packs on order I'd love some more but attempts to gain extra resources such as selling body parts and visiting Preston Docks on a Friday night ( :-[) have yielded nothing yet :(

45 Class B's would cost £877.50 so I hope there's more than 1 rich person out there
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on January 13, 2017, 03:17:21 pm

From memory the real Fawley to Bomford Bridge trains could be up to 45 tankers, behind double-headed BRCW Type 3 locos (Class 33) with a Queen Mary brake van on the end.

We need a few people to buy enough tankers to recreate the full train and the project will soon meet the minimum order number.


Exactly. I've ordered 21 because with two 33s (bought), or a weathered 9F (bought), two barrier wagons (bought) and a Queen Mary brake (bought) that's plenty long enough for my layout.

If I bought any more that would be for speculative selling on. Which I don't want to do, because to make the investment worthwhile, after I've paid for postage to receive the wagons, and then the cost of selling on EBay (10%), I would need to sell them at £30 each to warrant the risk of buying them in the first place, which I don't think is an acceptable price for a 15' wheelbase wagon (yet).

Bob
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 03:24:39 pm
I occasionally back Kickstarter projects and they show you how many are needed to hit minimum numbers.  It promotes the ones that can make it with a bit more backing but deflates the dead ducks.

A question to Ben,  If I increase my order what happens to postage already calculated?
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: railsquid on January 13, 2017, 04:08:20 pm
Thanks all, I think I can give a short-ish rake a shot. It will have to be a short-ish rake (probably 9 wagons) as the layout won't handle more, and I can't justify spending any more.

TBH I wasn't not really a transition era modeller, but have been beguiled by videos and pictures of stuff which ran on the GWR mainline through Birmingham in the 1960s, so anything from that era which would plausibly have run in the Birmingham area is fair game. I like the look of the wagons for some reason too, I'm sure I must have seen some and/or pictures of some.

From memory the real Fawley to Bomford Bridge trains could be up to 45 tankers, behind double-headed BRCW Type 3 locos (Class 33) with a Queen Mary brake van on the end.

We need a few people to buy enough tankers to recreate the full train and the project will soon meet the minimum order number.

I'll take 90 then, need to model the empties going the other way. Just need to build a helix to run them in...

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: red_death on January 13, 2017, 04:35:13 pm
A question to Ben,  If I increase my order what happens to postage already calculated?

Not Ben, but I can answer that.

When people place multiple orders we will combine and refund the difference where we can.  For wagons most of our P&P calculations are a flat rate plus an amount per wagon so if you placed 3 orders you are likely to get two lots of the flat rate amount back.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 13, 2017, 04:47:41 pm
A question to Ben,  If I increase my order what happens to postage already calculated?

Not Ben, but I can answer that.

When people place multiple orders we will combine and refund the difference where we can.  For wagons most of our P&P calculations are a flat rate plus an amount per wagon so if you placed 3 orders you are likely to get two lots of the flat rate amount back.

Cheers, Mike

Great  Thanks
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: robert shrives on January 13, 2017, 05:21:55 pm
Hi just upped order for 9 more happy esso!
look good heading to fort Willam depot and fuel terminal...

good luck with number crunching

Robert
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Bob G on January 13, 2017, 06:05:24 pm
The Esso sign means Happy Motoring :)

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/47/1517-130117180402.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=47283)

Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: jrb on January 13, 2017, 06:28:03 pm
I've just placed my third (and final... :uneasy:) order.

Now got 3x triples & a single in Esso, and 2x triples & a single in unbranded. I think 17 really is my limit...

OK, so I have no willpower, and my limit obviously isn't 17. I don't like odd numbers anyway. But that's it now. Absolutely done. No more. Not one. :whistle:
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: johnlambert on January 15, 2017, 07:36:44 pm
Another order placed, one more Esso (to go with the triple pack I ordered before) and four unbranded.  If funds permit I may order another triple pack (or two) before the end of February.

I bought a book called Goods & Freight yesterday and I was surprised at how many Class B tanks turned up in goods trains either in small groups or as large block workings.  It makes me wonder why this wagon is struggling to reach the required order quantity.
Title: Re: EXCLUSIVE - REVOLUTION Goes To The Top Of Class B!
Post by: Ben A on January 15, 2017, 10:23:43 pm
I bought a book called Goods & Freight yesterday and I was surprised at how many Class B tanks turned up in goods trains either in small groups or as large block workings.  It makes me wonder why this wagon is struggling to reach the required order quantity.

Hi John,

We are wondering the same thing!  Orders are getting closer to the minimum target we need, but we are still a few hundred short.

Fingers crossed the project can get there by Model Rail Scotland, at the end of February.  All I can ask is that forum members interested in seeing this model succeed spread the word as far and wide as possible!

Cheers

Ben A.