N Gauge Forum

General Category => Crowdfunding => Topic started by: DJM Dave on July 28, 2016, 11:31:18 am

Title: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 28, 2016, 11:31:18 am
Hi everyone, i've posted the following on RMWeb ( :sorrysign:) and post here for comments.

It may or may not be of interest to some of you.
cheers
Dave
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone,

This is something i've been thinking seriously about for some time, and its' come more to the fore since the announcement of the Farish Motorail wagon.

I've put a plan together to propose a crowdfunded pack of 5 different 1960's to 1970's era cars.
These will be plastic, with a fully molded and detailed body, separate chassis and wheels, and clear glazing.
Each car will be painted (not left plastic colour), and have painted wheels, hub caps, number plates, radiator grills, head and tail lights and where possible indicator lights.
I've reached an agreement that after 500 packs have been produced the run will change colour to other authentic colours of the day, and this will keep going per 500 run to keep things different.

As a modeller, you've either got to go to the trouble of repainting your cars yourself (and if your like me, i can never get them as good as the factory finish) or stick with the same colours as per the factory left them. Heck, some of them are left in their plastic molded colours too.

In this day and age it not impossible if there's a will, to do it the way i'm suggesting so that common cars can be seen in the same street on your layout, or indeed on your motorail train etc but with different colours.

I also envisage the possibility for fellow modellers getting together to swap cars depending on their tastes and needs etc.

Anyway, the nitty gritty...... the cost.

OK, in the scheme of things this doesn't sound too bad, but its' still monies needed up front to make the project a go'er. (please remember these are plastic and will be very light on car transporters so that you can model scale length trains without the need to double head etc to move them as you might have to do with metal cars.

If i get 1000 orders the cost per customer is £41.70   per pack of 5 cars
If i get 2000 orders the cost per customer is £26.40   per pack of 5 cars
If i get 3000 orders the cost per customer is £21.32   per pack of 5 cars
if i get 4000 orders the cost per customer is £18.79   per pack of 5 cars
If i get more than 4000 the price will drop further but as you can see from above, the price drop will slow up each 500 - 1000 produced.

This price difference between the quantities is purely the math used to amortize the fixed tooling cost which comes down per amount produced.
Obviously the 1000 customer price is a no go, but for 5 cars maybe 3000 sales are possible?

I envisage an RRP of £24.95 when and if they go on sale in stores.

Anyway, the choice of cars is as follows..... Vauxhall Viva, Morris Allegro, Morris 1100, Ford Zephyr, Rover P5B

If i can get this project off the ground the second series of vehicles will include other cars such as the early Fiesta and Princess models.

Right, over to you. and please be as candid as you think in your posting here.
Together i think we can make this one work, what do you think?
Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on July 28, 2016, 11:41:25 am
Sounds like an excellent plan, I'm on record somewhere saying someone should do something like this, where do I sign up? :thumbsup:

 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Ditape on July 28, 2016, 11:43:08 am
I would be interested in these cars but only at the 3000 order plus prices they will be useful with the launch of the NGS carflats.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Ian Bowden on July 28, 2016, 11:44:07 am
I would be interested
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Tom U on July 28, 2016, 11:52:13 am
I would be interested at the 2000 order price level. Even at around £30.
 Where do I signup  :)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 28, 2016, 11:52:22 am
Hi everyone,

sorry but i should have asked.
If you are interested, i'd like to have a feel for the amount of packs you'd be looking for (remember its crowdfunded so if it works you'd need to spend the monies up front)
I can narrow down options a bit once and if it proceeds.

For example you might want 4 packs, but would you want 4 from the first 500  or 4 different packs (ergo different car colours). but this can be fleshed out later.
cheers
Dave
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Only Me on July 28, 2016, 11:57:12 am
Dave, I really think you need to have a Granada or MK1 Contina in the offering??

I'd be in for a few of packs if they were under a fiver a car so £25 would be acceptable for a pack of five...
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: montyburns1982 on July 28, 2016, 11:57:26 am
Hi Dave,

Any possibility of some 1980s cars instead or are you proposed models set in stone? I'm not sure why, but there's hardly anything available, apart from a few 30 years old white metal lumps.

I'd really like some Escorts, Capris, Sierras, Metros etc but no-one ever seems to want to produce them.

I'd happily pay £40 for a pack of 1980s rust buckets.

Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 28, 2016, 12:34:50 pm
Hi mate,

I'm pretty sure that my choices for the first batch won't be everybody's taste, the same as 80's wouldn't be to others tastes either.

It's a case of you gotta start somewhere, and by starting in the 60/70's era it covers possibly the most popular era for trains and vehicles.

I will expand the range should it Prove popular=r, but remember it's early days at the minute.
Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: montyburns1982 on July 28, 2016, 12:51:42 pm
Fair enough Dave,

If it helps, I'd probably buy one pack of the 70s cars you are proposing, to support the venture if nothing more.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: johnlambert on July 28, 2016, 01:14:21 pm
It depends, to an extent, which cars you're offering but I'd probably order at least one pack.

When can we start frothing and arguing over which cars should be included? ;)



Anyway, the choice of cars is as follows..... Vauxhall Viva, Morris Allegro, Morris 1100, Ford Zephyr, Rover P5B

If i can get this project off the ground the second series of vehicles will include other cars such as the early Fiesta and Princess models.



Sorry, I should have read the OP properly!
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on July 28, 2016, 01:16:42 pm
Hmmm, I'd certainly go for one pack, I hadn't thought about the carflats, I'll need to think about how I could use those (worryingly easily, I suspect).

How many cars per carflat?

My personal preferences would lean more towards late 70s/early 80s but I understand you have to start somewhere. Three of the models (Vauxhall Viva, Morris Allegro, Morris 1100) were certainly still knocking around in various forms at that time (wait - just checking, was there ever such a thing as a "Morris" Allegro?), though the other two I had to look up.

Finally, will you be offering a choice of numberplates?  :hmmm:

Just joking  :D
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: johnlambert on July 28, 2016, 01:25:35 pm
Hmmm, I'd certainly go for one pack, I hadn't thought about the carflats, I'll need to think about how I could use those (worryingly easily, I suspect).

How many cars per carflat?

My personal preferences would lean more towards late 70s/early 80s but I understand you have to start somewhere. Three of the models (Vauxhall Viva, Morris Allegro, Morris 1100) were certainly still knocking around in various forms at that time (wait - just checking, was there ever such a thing as a "Morris" Allegro?), though the other two I had to look up.

Finally, will you be offering a choice of numberplates?  :hmmm:

Just joking  :D

As far as I know there was never a Morris Allegro, only the Austin Allegro.  The Morris Marina was sold as an Austin in some markets (and the Morris Minor van was also sold under the Austin name).

The Austin/Morris 1100/1300 range, Allegro and the Marina seem like good choices for N scale road vehicles, given how popular they were at the time.  Well, popular may not be the word, but there were plenty of them.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Newportnobby on July 28, 2016, 01:26:55 pm
Yep - count me in, Dave. I'll need a second mortgage to fund this as I'd want a trainful of same make cars e.g. shipping new ex Cowley or, as you suggest, can go back to being a kid and doing 'swappsies' in the playground ;D
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on July 28, 2016, 01:38:21 pm
Yep - count me in, Dave. I'll need a second mortgage to fund this as I'd want a trainful of same make cars e.g. shipping new ex Cowley or, as you suggest, can go back to being a kid and doing 'swappsies' in the playground ;D

I would swap some 1100s (Cowley?) for some Allegros (Longbridge?).

OK, I think I've finally lost it, it's 2016 and I'm speculatively arranging future swaps of BMC/BL "classics". Where's my Allegromon Go app?
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: JasonBz on July 28, 2016, 01:40:51 pm
I would certainly have at least one pack of each proposed issue.
But I agree somewhere along the line a Ford Cortina is essential :)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: PaulCheffus on July 28, 2016, 03:15:47 pm
As far as I know there was never a Morris Allegro, only the Austin Allegro.

Hi

I thought that too as I used to own an Austin Allegro.

I would be interested in one set of these.

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: trkilliman on July 28, 2016, 03:18:08 pm
I model the early to mid 1950s...However, I think your crowdfunding idea for 70s/80s vehicles is REALLY good and will be well supported Dave.

There are some glaring gaps with vehicles,especially cars, and the main player in their manufacture seems to be  (IMO) oblivious to what customers actually want and will buy. Some of their releases have been called "oddball" choices.

I would like more for the period I model in plastic, but in fairness the 70s/80s period is crying out for the vehicles that were so common on our roads back then.

Good luck with this crowdfunding project. I hope it comes to fruition for modellers of this era. If demand meets, or even exceeds your expectations you may extend crowdfunding to cover earlier periods in time.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: javlinfaw7 on July 28, 2016, 03:38:57 pm
I would go for at least one pack, but which viva  and zephyr are you planning
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: mr bachmann on July 28, 2016, 03:56:34 pm
some pig's , bubbles and infact any model three wheeler would be welcome .
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on July 28, 2016, 04:13:53 pm
I model the early to mid 1950s...However, I think your crowdfunding idea for 70s/80s vehicles is REALLY good and will be well supported Dave.

There are some glaring gaps with vehicles,especially cars, and the main player in their manufacture seems to be  (IMO) oblivious to what customers actually want and will buy. Some of their releases have been called "oddball" choices.

I'm pretty sure the main player has established a range of things which definitely sell (I suspect to collectors rather than modellers) - otherwise they wouldn't make them - but what they don't see are scenes such as when I was standing in a UK model shop with a loose wallet gazing over a large range of their models, yet finding only one or two items I actually recognized (one was a BR Commer van). I could easily have walked out of there with a dozen or two vehicles but as I'm not into modelling scenes which could feature in a 1950's Ladybird book, on the shelf they stayed.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 28, 2016, 04:45:26 pm
I think this is a good initiative Dave. I'd be in for two or three packs at around the £25 per pack mark.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Cooper on July 28, 2016, 05:03:43 pm
I would prefer later vehicles, but like woodbury22uk I would take a couple of packs of these at the £25 price area to swap for the longer lived vehicles, and to support the project in the hope that vehicles of the later 70s and 80s will follow! Do we know what the NGS are considering for vehicles yet? Is this Dave getting in early and leaving the NGS to produce the early Cortinas, Marinas and Toledos and the previously mentioned 1980s rust buckets? Whatever, I sincerely hope this comes off.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Zogbert Splod on July 28, 2016, 05:05:01 pm
Well, second forum page since around midday. I think you have your answer!
I'm up for a set or two if they settle at the projected 3000 price. I would want more when the colours and/or models change too.
Let us know when and how orders will be taken.

Excellent scheme, regards, Allan.....  :thankyousign: :NGaugersRule:
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: red_death on July 28, 2016, 05:07:04 pm
Do we know what the NGS are considering for vehicles yet?

Yes  :D

Seriously, I've been in touch with Dave and whilst I haven't broken any confidences I think it is fair to say there is plenty of scope for all and we could really do with some 60s-90s cars.

Cheers, Mike

Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Cooper on July 28, 2016, 05:43:30 pm
Do we know what the NGS are considering for vehicles yet?

Yes  :D

Seriously, I've been in touch with Dave and whilst I haven't broken any confidences I think it is fair to say there is plenty of scope for all and we could really do with some 60s-90s cars.

Cheers, Mike

Very glad to hear that Mike!
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Bob G on July 28, 2016, 06:42:46 pm
Dave

I'm not sure about more than one or two of these, as specified above, but if you had said Ford Transits circa 1970-74 in white, white, white, red, white and blue, I would have had at least 20 cars (seven carflats worth). Eastleigh was a great place to see these shipped out, and a great way to justify carflats on the southern.

White van man needs his van!

Bob


Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Cooper on July 28, 2016, 07:46:01 pm
Like this?

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/9/main_33677.jpeg (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/9/main_33677.jpeg)

Shapeways is your friend. If you use the right paint, you can get a neater finish too! I learnt the hard way...
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on July 28, 2016, 08:03:41 pm
Good luck I may be interested in 1 pack 80's would have been better for me. I trust you will be able to get the appropriate licences to use these names. It is my understanding having spoken to others in the industry, including yourself in a past life that this can be difficult and costly. Would      hate to see you end up in court over this.

I take it then the 3000 unit sales would be made up of 6 different colour schemes?
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: ScottyStitch on July 28, 2016, 10:57:25 pm
Depending on the Mark of Zephyr, I'd be in for enough cars to fill ten NGS car flats at least.

I'd prefer the 1962 Zephyr which was the mark III, funnily enough also known as Zephyr 4 and Zephyr 6.

OR

The Viva, but only, again if it's the early version, ie the HA.

OR

The 1100, if it's the Mark 1.

I second the call for 1960s transits.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 28, 2016, 11:03:21 pm
Good luck I may be interested in 1 pack 80's would have been better for me. I trust you will be able to get the appropriate licences to use these names. It is my understanding having spoken to others in the industry, including yourself in a past life that this can be difficult and costly. Would      hate to see you end up in court over this.


If the make and model names are registered as trade marks there might be an issue in using them. Remember the Farish Scenecraft cars used model names but not maker names, and the 5cwt van had no branding at all.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: javlinfaw7 on July 29, 2016, 12:18:27 am
The 5cwt van ,indeed most of the range did not deserve branding
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Chetcombe on July 29, 2016, 01:05:40 am
Great idea. Count me in for at least a couple of packs. Oh and very best of luck with this initiative!
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Bob G on July 29, 2016, 01:24:55 am
Hmmm those Ford Transits are quite costly. At £11.50 approx. for a van or £19 for a van and a minibus, I could see myself spending £225 on FUD bodies alone.
Mind you, they wont rust...but they might not take the paint that well either  :D

Had better wait and see what Dave and the NGS each come up with, as the price point could come down a lot from there.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 29, 2016, 08:54:52 am
The 5cwt van ,indeed most of the range did not deserve branding


There seems to be a sizeable problem in getting N gauge cars to look anything like the original they are based on. Oxford struggle, Farish failed miserably, and this Herpa Fiat has barely a passing resemblance to the Panda. http://www.herpa.de/collect/(S(ljgh3jroxffpl5kemovmkwtj))/hitlist.aspx?lang=en-GB&collection=Cars&thumb=1&express=1&maxRecords=20&sk_hersteller_e=Fiat (http://www.herpa.de/collect/(S(ljgh3jroxffpl5kemovmkwtj))/hitlist.aspx?lang=en-GB&collection=Cars&thumb=1&express=1&maxRecords=20&sk_hersteller_e=Fiat)

Wiking seem to do better generally, especially with the recent VWs.

And some of the white metal ones are definitely from the dark ages:-

http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=267 (http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=267)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: johnlambert on July 29, 2016, 10:52:48 am
The 5cwt van ,indeed most of the range did not deserve branding


There seems to be a sizeable problem in getting N gauge cars to look anything like the original they are based on. Oxford struggle, Farish failed miserably, and this Herpa Fiat has barely a passing resemblance to the Panda. [url]http://www.herpa.de/collect/(S(ljgh3jroxffpl5kemovmkwtj))/hitlist.aspx?lang=en-GB&collection=Cars&thumb=1&express=1&maxRecords=20&sk_hersteller_e=Fiat[/url] ([url]http://www.herpa.de/collect/(S(ljgh3jroxffpl5kemovmkwtj))/hitlist.aspx?lang=en-GB&collection=Cars&thumb=1&express=1&maxRecords=20&sk_hersteller_e=Fiat[/url])

Wiking seem to do better generally, especially with the recent VWs.

And some of the white metal ones are definitely from the dark ages:-

[url]http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=267[/url] ([url]http://www.pdmarshmodels.com/show_product.php?pid=267[/url])


There are some truly terrible 'N scale' vehicles out there.  Most of Oxford's output isn't bad, the R Parker whitemetal cars are pretty good and so are the RailNScale 3D prints.

I vaguely remember a car designer telling me that the three crucial elements in any successful design were proportion, line and form.  I suspect that it is very challenging getting these elements in balance when you've scaled the real thing down to 1:144th the original size.  A fraction of a millimetre out on a N scale car is quite a big error compared with the size of the car itself.

I also suspect that our eyesight tricks us, another card designer friend admitted to me that the dimensions on the scaled down styling models he and his colleagues produced were adjusted so that they looked right.  And It is (I think) fairly well known that Corgi (or was it Dinky?) adjusted the proportions on some of its toy cars because otherwise they didn't 'look right'.

My preference would be for something that I know is scaled correctly rather than something messed about with to meet someone's aesthetic ideals, but that may just be me.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Steven B on July 29, 2016, 12:28:42 pm
I'd see £3-5 per car to be the price to aim for - i.e. something around the price Oxford Diecast cars sell for. Much more and train loads become unaffordable.

The problem DJM with have is there are two different markets. One for cars to populate layouts and Motorail services where five different cars in a pack is to be welcomed. However, those like myself wanting to fill Cartics or Carflats with a factory train would want multiple models of the same car type. Having to mess about finding someone to swap with, or searching eBay isn't something I have time for and would rather just carry on running my trains empty.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Trainfish on July 30, 2016, 11:57:02 am
I would prefer mk3, 4, 5 Cortinas, Fiestas, Granadas, Cavaliers, Metros, Avengers, Princesses, etc but I'd probably have a couple of these packs too. I think up to £6 a car would be acceptable.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 30, 2016, 12:46:33 pm
Hi,

I think your right Steven B, and I think the way round it will be to produce packs with 1 single design at a later date.

That could be the ideal answer, but we have a long way to go to meet 3000 orders to make the project viable.

I'll look at doing an 'expressions of interest' page on my website, which I can use over say a 3 month period to see if this is viable.

Worth noting is that unless i increase the RRP for 'normal sales' (not crowdfunded) availability in the shops may be a heck of a long way off due to the economics of doing this.

The problem being to tooling. I'll only use hard steel, not rubbish softer steel or aluminium which are no good for long runs, and the fact that the undercuts etc of the models don't leave any room for skimping. As such either a 'kit' type body could be the answer but the assembly and gaps etc would be prohibitive and look silly, or you go the correct way and use a collapsing tool which is very expensive.

Take a look at a car next time  a chance. Angles, curves, sticky out bits, bits that go inwards. They are a tooling nightmare. And although not impossible, they are costly to replicate. And I'm not going to do them if I can't produce an accurate representation of the real thing, as it just isn't worth it.

No metal lump approximations, or scale problems for me.

So, in a few days I'll post  the expressions page link on my web site and then it's over to you and fellow N gauge modellers.

We can then all judge if there really is a market for scale UK outline vehicles in a good range of colours.

Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: MKP on July 30, 2016, 01:18:43 pm
Aren't some of Oxford Diecast's latest releases plastic rather than metal? might be worth finding out which metal they use for the tooling or you might already be aware which, as they can produce them for RRP£3.95, and £3.95 for a car from Oxford would have to be your ultimate aim? How many units would you want to get out of the tooling before it was no good?

the other question would be what number do Oxford produce a vehicle in to get it at £3.95?
 
I know from personal experience that to do a special run of an already existing tooled vehicle we would have had to commit to 3000 units
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 30, 2016, 01:36:44 pm
Well at around £20 for 5 vehicles it would be about £4.00 each
So a good take up would ensure that.

No idea what tools Oxford use.

The MOQ from the factory would be 500 at a single colour each ( 1 blue, 1 mustard yellow, 1 green etc to make the pack of 5)

3000 is Mickey Mouse in my opinion and more hopeful rather than anything else.
Heck if you wanted a run of 250, I could do that but the pack price goes up accordingly.

HTH
Cheers
Dave

Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: steve836 on July 30, 2016, 05:10:32 pm
I would certainly be interested and prepared to take at least one pack, maybe more if they look good in the flesh. Have you thought though of approaching Oxford to see if they would take an order to make a model which is currently outside of their range and how many you would need to guarantee to take to make it worthwhile?
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 30, 2016, 10:00:32 pm
Piecing together information from a few different sources it looks like the minimum order size for a recolour of an existing model is 3000, and a new mould around 15000 models.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 31, 2016, 11:42:15 am
Not sure where you got those figures from but trust me, they are incorrect.

My minimum is much smaller, and into double figures if you want to go really small but for a bigger cost.

Tooling amortisation quantity shrinks as I have shown in my original pricing.
Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on July 31, 2016, 12:25:43 pm
I was talking about what Oxford require, Dave, in response to Steve836's suggestion. If you have better and lower quantity quotes from Oxford then that is great, but surprising.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: DJM Dave on July 31, 2016, 12:53:03 pm
Not sure its surprising. but it does, i suppose, depend on the prices you wish to charge and the margin you wish to make on the product.

I know that i can sell x amount of products at XX price and break even, and the prices in the original post in this section shows that on a sliding scale.

Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: 47033 on July 31, 2016, 04:11:43 pm
Count me in on 5 packs but I would like at least 2 maybe 3 different colour runs  in those packs. If this is successful and you move onto the later 80's version cars at a later date
then I would be willing to buy (depending on the quality) at least 10-15 packs. I would also require them shipped to me in the USA

Jamie
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Formerly NtasticShop on July 31, 2016, 06:32:27 pm
Piecing together information from a few different sources it looks like the minimum order size for a recolour of an existing model is 3000, and a new mould around 15000 models.

I would have thought these figures are close as £3.95 is the RRP
minus VAT £3.16
Distributer may get 50% £1.58
Oxford get £1.58 ish to design, manufacture, package, shipping, import duty, profit, wages, advertising, etc.
New Model on woodbury22uk number 15000 x 1.58 = £23,700 spread over 5 liveries. Not big bucks, based on back of a fag packet calculations of course.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: montyburns1982 on August 01, 2016, 11:47:49 am
IIRC, don't Oxford also have their own factory? Which may affect the commercials somewhat.

Regardless of this, I hope that Dave gets enough interest to get this off the ground, the lack of convincing N gauge vehicles has been an irritation of mine for a long time.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Railwaygun on August 26, 2016, 06:10:46 pm
N gauge RTP 1960’s-70’s cars from DJM (& RMWEb)

From DJM:

N gauge RTP (ready to plant) 1960’s-70’s cars (pack of 5)

With the advent of car carrying wagons from Graham Farish, and the dearth of variety of the ‘food and drink’ plain cars for this era, this is the perfect time to launch a further crowdfunding for a pack of 5 cars based on vehicles of that period.

Tooling to do these correctly is quite expensive as it’s a more complicated shape in a smaller area and this costs accordingly. The cars will feature separately painted wheels and hubs, glazing, painted lights, bumpers, door handles etc.

The run will be for only 500 packs, and after that the second run will be the same but in different colours of the day, for variety. The vehicles will be spray painted and not left in a plastic colour moulded state.

This crowdfunding is for as many packs as you want at £19.95 per pack of 5

The types of cars for the first run will be will be modelled on the list as follows: Viva, Allegro, 1100, Zephyr, P5B (This is pack product code DJM-V-N-00001)

 

All information and the ‘expressions of interest’ page will be on the DJModels web site

www.djmodels.co.uk  (http://www.djmodels.co.uk)

RSN!
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on August 26, 2016, 06:31:59 pm
I have asked whether the Viva and Zephyr can be more precisely identified as each came in 2 or 3 quite different body styles over the 20 year period covered by the 1960s- 1970s.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Ben A on August 26, 2016, 07:07:25 pm

Hello all,

For clarity, the Carflat wagons are available from the NGS initially, and we are expecting them for summer 2017, so they won't actually be available in the standard Farish range until summer 2019 at the earliest.

That's no reason not to start stocking up on cars of course, and the models DJM is offering are, I am happy to say, different to those the NGS is planning to  release with the Carflats.

Cheers

Ben A.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 26, 2016, 08:12:21 pm
Can someone inform this numpty how many cars a carflat would carry so I know how many cars to order? :dunce:
 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on August 26, 2016, 08:36:54 pm
Can someone inform this numpty how many cars a carflat would carry so I know how many cars to order? :dunce:
 :thankyousign:

Normally 4 cars per wagon, but you could get five little ones on physically if you had enough securing chocks.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 26, 2016, 09:06:20 pm
Thanks Mike.
As my layout is based near Cowley I would have preferred Maestros and Marinas but have decided that, due to a wildcat strike in Longbridge, some production was transferred using the Morris Cowley station and goods yard ;)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Mustermark on August 27, 2016, 01:33:51 pm
This is a great initiative. Glad to hear about the planning with the NGS to avoid duplication!

I have no doubt that I will want at least one pack of each different colour set produced! 60-70's cars will fit perfectly on the streets of Reading, on a rake of carflats, and on motorail trains when Reading is in 70's guise. I doubt I will ever have enough, so please count me in... For the DJM crowdfunding and the NGS carflat cars.

The models of common cars cited so far are ones I remember, so just right to tempt me.

And when you get to the 1980s cars, I'll be in for a couple of those too, just because I collect stuff, and I'll be doing rule 1 on scenics too.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Newportnobby on August 27, 2016, 02:30:25 pm

The types of cars for the first run will be will be modelled on the list as follows: Viva, Allegro, 1100, Zephyr, P5B (This is pack product code DJM-V-N-00001)

All information and the ‘expressions of interest’ page will be on the DJModels web site

[url=http://www.djmodels.co.uk]www.djmodels.co.uk[/url]  ([url]http://www.djmodels.co.uk[/url])



@DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882)
Whoops. Never seen that on the website but found it under 'Other'.
Surely it would also help to have a numbers box alongside each item, especially the cars as although I have ticked the box for the cars, in actual fact I'd need probably between 5-8 packs. This might also go towards seeing how the crowdfunding sums are heading :hmmm:
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Bornin1980something on August 27, 2016, 11:02:50 pm
I've found the expressions of interest page, but not the actual crowd funding page. Where is it?

Also, can you give more model details for each one, including year of introduction?
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Ian Bowden on August 29, 2016, 09:38:28 am
looking forward to different cars in my era (5)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on October 04, 2016, 07:33:54 am
With all the excitement on the Class 92 has this project failed on the stop blocks? I am still wanting to know what actual vehicles are proposed before committing. After all the detailed precision applied to numbers and livery on the locomotives it seems strange that over two months in the product is still so vague.

I have asked over on the RMWeb thread a couple of times. Not saying which variant of the Viva or Zephyr is intended is the railway equivalent of saying it is a Mk2 coach. It would affect how many sets I ordered.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: mr bachmann on October 05, 2016, 11:28:29 am
( a class 139  :D )
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on October 13, 2016, 02:02:57 pm
I was really excited by this proposal when originally announced.

Over on RMWeb, in response to an enquiry from Grahame Hedges, Dave Jones has written:-

 "Unlike the class 92 in N and OO gauge, the cars have been an utter failure so far.

This may be down to the description of the models, but the overall premise, whilst being sound I thought, has been something that I'm now beginning to shy away from.
 
I'll leave it until after the next advert comes out in the press and see where we go from there."


I think the lack of response shows clearly to me, at least, that crowdfunding is not a launch and forget process. It needs constant nurturing. The unbelievably spectacular results from the two DJModels Class 92 projects shows how effective this can be, and both have detailed product lists with loco numbers and liveries, catalogue reference numbers. In contrast the "cars" just seem like a makeweight project and not even the vehicle marks have been specified. I decided not to commit to the "cars" without knowing as a minimum whether it was an HA, HB or HC Viva or a MkI, MII, MkIII Zephyr. I asked several times but no answer came forward. I do not see much hope of rescue for the project now unless the magazine publicity somehow has more precise product specifications than has been forthcoming here. Having 5 equally vague product numbers on the website is not an incentive to express an interest.

I am really disappointed that the project received so little attention from the proposer.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: njee20 on October 13, 2016, 03:09:48 pm
Were I a more cynical man I'd suggest the staggering popularity of the 92 is down to 'outside influences' more than pure sales volumes! Still a bit of a shame about the cars, but it did seem a bit of a lacklustre campaign as you say.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on October 13, 2016, 04:52:37 pm
An equally cynical man may suggest that everything promised for N gauge will be thrown on to the back burner from now until the 92 is produced. If it is produced.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 13, 2016, 08:35:13 pm
I must admit I may have to alter the delivery address for my class 23 to "Purgatory" :worried:
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Mustermark on October 14, 2016, 12:15:19 am
Inhave to agree woodbury. It wasn't an exemplary marketing exercise. Real shame as I'd have been happy to buy quite a few.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: woodbury22uk on October 14, 2016, 06:38:32 am
Seems like there may be a problem with how the DJModels website over-records expressions of interest, judging by this post and subsequent replies.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78865-rmweb-commission-hunslet-austerity-through-djmodels/?p=2462727 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78865-rmweb-commission-hunslet-austerity-through-djmodels/?p=2462727)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: njee20 on October 14, 2016, 07:30:13 am
Seems like there may be a problem with how the DJModels website over-records expressions of interest, judging by this post and subsequent replies.

[url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78865-rmweb-commission-hunslet-austerity-through-djmodels/?p=2462727[/url] ([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78865-rmweb-commission-hunslet-austerity-through-djmodels/?p=2462727[/url])


Not a problem so much as a function of how it works. I know with the 92 no one got any confirmations, despite Dave's assertions they should. I know I put in expressions for 2 (possibly 3, can't remember), but I have nothing to remind me; no email, no login credentials to check an order. I got one £30 invoice which says "n gauge 92", but I don't know if that's for one loco or two, and if it's one then which one?

I haven't paid because Ben and Mike are doing liveries I want more, but even taking that out of the equation I would be very reticent to purchase on the strength of this information. I don't quite know why Dave doesn't say "emails aren't working", and/or just fix them! I think he's making a rod for his own back by saying they're fine, meaning people simply think they've forgotten/the system hasn't worked and so 'order' again.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on October 14, 2016, 08:07:17 am
Inhave to agree woodbury. It wasn't an exemplary marketing exercise. Real shame as I'd have been happy to buy quite a few.
A couple of updates from the horse's mouth on this thread about where to place expressions of interest and any impending cut-off dates might have reminded those of us who don't follow every thread on RMweb...
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Claude Dreyfus on October 14, 2016, 08:17:24 am
I am afraid this whole situation seems to be getting worse every day. The issues around the receipt of an order is not just a little glitch with the sticking plaster solution if 'I will let you know'. At best it is an administrative nightmare, at worse it means you lose track of your orders and end up with a huge disparity in order numbers and are staring at a potential loss on a product you thought was a success. Admissions that order volumes are significantly wrong due to people not being notified of their order, therefore placing it again, only to cancel the duplicate when the issue is realised, will certainly not give us the confidence to place more orders.

Things are not looking too great at the moment. There was been no N gauge model delivered yet, none of the earlier models (Clayton, Baby Deltic and the 59 for example) are even at the point where prototype samples are being shown, the ordering process is not up to scratch, the eminently sensible plan to produce N gauge cars seems to have fallen flat, not to mention the rather unseemly post on RMweb about the 92. All this combined does not instill confidence in people who are promising large amounts of money in these ventures.

The 00 models by all accounts are excellent models, but DJM have not produced an N gauge motor for us to judge if this quality scales down.

At risk is the credibility of DJM, which seems to be being continuously undermined day by day. It can only be rescued with action, not promises. By that I do not mean clearing the decks to compete with Revolution on the 92, it means delivering those models promised a couple of years ago. Otherwise it is nothing more than empty promises and vapour-ware.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: njee20 on October 14, 2016, 09:24:17 am
Couldn't agree more Claude, I have some serious misgivings about the whole thing. His website is very out of date, with Mermaids due in March and other n gauge models following at six-weekly intervals. As with so many of these things (for me) it's the basics that matter. Yes, I'm paying him to make model trains not provide a website and admin service, but when you can't even get things like that right it doesn't instill confidence in me to hand over significant sums of money, effectively on a promise. I'm surprised that so many people are confident to do so.

Had the 92 invoices been a little more polished, and not just a PayPal request for money, that would have instilled a little more confidence. Or indeed if something ostensibly easier to get to market, like packs of cars, had been rushed through.

Of course I hope I'm totally wrong, there's a (non Hanjin) container full of Mermaids on the high-seas and various other models and winging their way to their respective purchasers as we speak, but the whole 'crowdfunding' thing makes me a little twitchy in this instance.

Inhave to agree woodbury. It wasn't an exemplary marketing exercise. Real shame as I'd have been happy to buy quite a few.
A couple of updates from the horse's mouth on this thread about where to place expressions of interest and any impending cut-off dates might have reminded those of us who don't follow every thread on RMweb...

To be fair there was a question posted on the RMWeb thread saying "what's happening Dave?", to which he said "err, yeah, not a lot", the whole point being that he wasn't keeping anyone up to date, rather than he was focusing his attention on RMWeb. I think it's overly critical to be grumpy at someone for not using multiple forums. RMWeb has a significantly bigger membership base, and Dave is very active on there (not always a good thing!), I think you have to cut him a bit of slack myself. I never quite understand the apparent chip on the shoulder some people have about RMWeb.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Thorpe Parva on October 14, 2016, 09:38:57 am
The cars situation has been complicated by Oxford's recent announcement of a similar-ish offering...

http://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/collections/1-148/products/carflat-pack-1960s-cars-or148cpk001 (http://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/collections/1-148/products/carflat-pack-1960s-cars-or148cpk001)

I don't think that either the DJM or Oxford offerings really address what many people want anyway. Anyone running a rake of Carflats with ex-factory vehicles would require a batch of similar cars without registration numbers. A mixed offering is OK in other situations.

I am also one of those waiting for the Mermaids so hopefully before the end of the year?
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Newportnobby on October 14, 2016, 09:42:12 am
I think it needs to be remembered Dave stated from the start that 00 gauge would be the first models from DJM, and that N gauge projects would be funded from sales of the 00 stuff.
Well and good, but this news on RMWeb does not bode well for those of us waiting for any comments/reviews of N gauge. What I've seen from DJM in 00 looks pretty damned good, but I am glad my only commitment so far is to pre order a Baby Deltic so no money has been taken. I'm very disappointed the Mermaids are nowhere to be seen yet, especially as my only interest was in weathered versions which would be quite a while after the pristine ones.
Methinks @DJM Dave (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2882) needs to update us.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on October 14, 2016, 10:07:10 am
To be fair there was a question posted on the RMWeb thread saying "what's happening Dave?", to which he said "err, yeah, not a lot", the whole point being that he wasn't keeping anyone up to date, rather than he was focusing his attention on RMWeb. I think it's overly critical to be grumpy at someone for not using multiple forums. RMWeb has a significantly bigger membership base, and Dave is very active on there (not always a good thing!), I think you have to cut him a bit of slack myself. I never quite understand the apparent chip on the shoulder some people have about RMWeb.
No particular chip here, just I don't follow the model rail stuff there as there's not much N gauge (plenty of "real world" stuff of interest). If he's running a business it's up to him to ignore effective communication channels. Anyway I can't find any mention of the cars on his site so assume they're no longer on the plate.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: njee20 on October 14, 2016, 10:38:05 am
But he isn't ignoring communication channels, he's not overly active on the forum you want him to be on. Dapol are using their own forum to canvas opinion and provide updates. They're not actively responding on other forums.

Still, NN's tagged him now, so perhaps we will get an update, but it's there on RMWeb that the cars have been an abject failure in terms of volumes, so it seems they're off the table.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: ScottyStitch on October 14, 2016, 10:47:10 am
The cars are still actively listed on the expression of interest page:

http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=47 (http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=47)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on October 14, 2016, 11:13:07 am
But he isn't ignoring communication channels, he's not overly active on the forum you want him to be on. Dapol are using their own forum to canvas opinion and provide updates. They're not actively responding on other forums.
Umm, DJM started this thread, implying an interest in using this forum as a communication channel, but evidently hasn't followed through. Even with a "sorry guys, too busy to keep up here, please follow me on [link]". And is complaining about lack of interest in the advertised product... just saying like.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on October 14, 2016, 11:17:05 am
The cars are still actively listed on the expression of interest page:

[url]http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=47[/url] ([url]http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=47[/url])

Ah, that was cunningly hidden.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: ScottyStitch on October 14, 2016, 11:17:49 am
As far as I know, that's really the only place they have ever been, tucked away at the end.....
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on October 14, 2016, 11:28:25 am
Actually looking back through the thread, I see the first reaction is mine where I ask "where do I sign up", a question which was never actually answered.

As far as I know, that's really the only place they have ever been, tucked away at the end.....

Indeed, well hidden - it's like you need to know a) expressions of interest are hidden under "Other" and b) to scroll all the way down a very long list. I probably looked on the site before (under "DJM products") and found nothing. Have cautiously expressed interest...
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: njee20 on October 14, 2016, 11:32:23 am
But he isn't ignoring communication channels, he's not overly active on the forum you want him to be on. Dapol are using their own forum to canvas opinion and provide updates. They're not actively responding on other forums.
Umm, DJM started this thread, implying an interest in using this forum as a communication channel, but evidently hasn't followed through. Even with a "sorry guys, too busy to keep up here, please follow me on [link]". And is complaining about lack of interest in the advertised product... just saying like.

But he's not kept anyone updated. It's not like you've missed constant updates and feedback. I'm completely failing to see an issue here!
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on October 14, 2016, 11:57:56 am
But he isn't ignoring communication channels, he's not overly active on the forum you want him to be on. Dapol are using their own forum to canvas opinion and provide updates. They're not actively responding on other forums.
Umm, DJM started this thread, implying an interest in using this forum as a communication channel, but evidently hasn't followed through. Even with a "sorry guys, too busy to keep up here, please follow me on [link]". And is complaining about lack of interest in the advertised product... just saying like.

But he's not kept anyone updated. It's not like you've missed constant updates and feedback. I'm completely failing to see an issue here!

The issue is he makes an announcement about a product which is interesting for quite a few people, fails to make it clear or easy where to place expressions of interest, then complains a few months later that "the cars have been an utter failure so far". I'm sure the odd quick update ("hey guys, expressions of interest are still open, click here") would have been conducive to reminding people to sign up (especially as it's not obvious from his site where to do that).

Anyway far be it from me to tell him how to run his business.
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: railsquid on January 05, 2017, 01:16:29 am
Per comment on RMweb it looks like this proposal is not, alas, going ahead: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118432-djmodels-ltd-end-of-year-report-2016/?p=2557989 (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/118432-djmodels-ltd-end-of-year-report-2016/?p=2557989)
Title: Re: N gauge Cars (crowdfunded proposal)
Post by: Mustermark on January 05, 2017, 04:35:09 am
Thanks for that Squid. Disappointing, but not surprising.

Now we just have to be just very hopeful for the NGS project to make the cars to go with the carflats.