N Gauge Forum

Your Layout and Models => On My Workbench => Topic started by: Newportnobby on December 12, 2011, 07:31:27 pm

Title: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Newportnobby on December 12, 2011, 07:31:27 pm
Anyone wanting a model of this loco can contact Mike J by PM.
Price etc unknown by me, but this is what it looks like
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j454/nobbynewport/Mugshots058.jpg)

The pic doesn't do it justice - soz
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Sithlord75 on December 13, 2011, 11:21:14 am
Geez where is the mouth watering emoticon when you need it?  I wouldn't mind but I reckon that Management would have something to say (mostly because my December bag reads 3 x 101, 1 x 411 and 1 x 121 already...)
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Newportnobby on December 13, 2011, 06:21:10 pm
Aw, come on. Everyone knows you have a Christmas sack, not a bag. Therefore you can get much more in it :evil:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Alex on December 13, 2011, 06:56:13 pm
Hi,

I thought the engine looked familiar. One of these engines won the NGS Annual Model Making Competition this year. Don't think it was this one as the bodywork above the driving wheels is slightly different. The guy modified his from a Graham Farish A3.

It is a very unusual looking engine. :thumbsup:

Alex
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Newportnobby on December 13, 2011, 07:09:30 pm
Hi Alex,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_W1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_W1)
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: GB No.9 on December 13, 2011, 07:33:53 pm
Heres a couple of my pics from Wigan mainly to test if I can post some pics!!

(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc366/GBno9/DSCF0810.jpg)
(http://i1208.photobucket.com/albums/cc366/GBno9/DSCF0802.jpg)

Fancy a W1 ??   (Hush Hush.............. dont tell the wife!!)    ;)
As stated earlier, if you fancy one of these little beauties, send me a PM & I'll pass your details onto the chap that makes em!!

I am not involved in the manufacture or financial side of these models, we just agreed to showcase his models because we thought  they were fantastic.

Hes also made a Garrett  a streamlined Duchess & an LNER Railcar

Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on December 14, 2011, 09:07:03 am
Very nice models there.

I've done a W1 also, but I did mine in rebuilt form, so used Farish A4 as the basis, with some stretching!

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1259363364/gallery_7627_400_20983.jpg)

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1269154169/gallery_7627_400_39466.jpg)

It's a long machine once built and makes an A4 look a bit shorty!

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: GB No.9 on December 14, 2011, 05:28:12 pm
That looks nice............ & its good to see something else  a bit different.

If the A4's were stretched any more to make a W1,  Mr Gresley would have had to make an articulated joint in the middle like on the "bendy-busses"   :smiley-laughing:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Stew2000 on December 16, 2011, 02:21:17 pm
Both models are very impressive machines. a shame the real one doesn't exist anymore :(
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: BernardTPM on December 16, 2011, 04:25:02 pm
If the A4's were stretched any more to make a W1,  Mr Gresley would have had to make an articulated joint in the middle like on the "bendy-busses"   :smiley-laughing:
Actually the LNER Pacifics are noticeably shorter than the LMS ones when you place them side by side, despite the 8-wheel tenders.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Mike J on January 11, 2012, 08:33:04 am
Very nice models there.

I've done a W1 also, but I did mine in rebuilt form, so used Farish A4 as the basis, with some stretching!

([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1259363364/gallery_7627_400_20983.jpg[/url])

([url]http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/1269154169/gallery_7627_400_39466.jpg[/url])

It's a long machine once built and makes an A4 look a bit shorty!

Cheers,
Alan


This is a fantastic conversion Al. I watched it progress on RMweb and was impressed by the skill and care you took to keep the line of the running plate, managing to stretch it without creating any kinks. A lovely job.
Mike
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on January 11, 2012, 09:17:12 am
This is a fantastic conversion Al. I watched it progress on RMweb and was impressed by the skill and care you took to keep the line of the running plate, managing to stretch it without creating any kinks. A lovely job.
Mike

Thanks Mike. I've seen conversions in OO where 2 A4 shells are simply halved and rejoined to either make a W1 or streamlined B17 - but I never liked this as the kink in the running plate stands out like a sore thumb. Keeping all of the running plate from one body sorts this out, and then you (just!) need to lengthen the boiler and the cab.

Best Regards,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Gordini5 on January 25, 2012, 10:17:45 am
Alan

Your model is superb, as all of them appear to be, where did you get the front bogie from?
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on January 25, 2012, 11:43:40 am
where did you get the front bogie from?

N brass locos.

Unfortunately for the A4 (and hence W1) the body needs quite a bit of not so easy modification to get it to fit and sit in the correct location - a lot of the underside of the front of the streamlined casing needs removal.

Regards,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: smudger on February 21, 2012, 06:27:23 pm
Thanks to the original poster I have one of Derek Rutherford's models of the W1 in original form. It really is a super model.

Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: GB No.9 on February 21, 2012, 08:24:33 pm
Thanks to the original poster I have one of Derek Rutherford's models of the W1 in original form. It really is a super model.

Alan

Im glad you're  impressed.  He has made a nice job of it.

If anyone else is interested in one, send me an e-mail & I'll put you in touch with the chap that makes em.............

N.B. As stated earlier, he also makes Garretts, Streamlined Duchess' & LNER railcars  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Newportnobby on February 21, 2012, 09:22:43 pm
Thanks to the original poster I have one of Derek Rutherford's models of the W1 in original form. It really is a super model.

Alan

Glad you like it, Alan. I was well impressed :thumbsup:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jon P on November 17, 2013, 07:55:00 pm
This is my W1 that I built using the body and chassis of an A3(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Mike J on November 17, 2013, 11:20:58 pm
This is my W1 that I built using the body and chassis of an A3(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

Nice one Jon. I don't think any of the major manufacturers will produce a model of the W1, so it's up to us scratch builders. A unique model for your layout.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jon P on November 17, 2013, 11:40:37 pm
Thanks Mike, nice to receive a positive response as a newbie to the forum. Now all I need to do is decide what to build next.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Mike J on November 17, 2013, 11:46:11 pm
Thanks Mike, nice to receive a positive response as a newbie to the forum. Now all I need to do is decide what to build next.

How about the holy grail of n gauge locos, a P2 in original condition?
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jon P on November 17, 2013, 11:58:08 pm
Has anyone else successfully made one? The chassis itself must present difficulties!
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Bealman on November 18, 2013, 12:08:51 am
Very impressive W1, Jon P! Thumbs up from me!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jon P on November 18, 2013, 12:17:00 am
Thanks Bealman. :thankyousign:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Atso on November 18, 2013, 12:31:51 am
How about the holy grail of n gauge locos, a P2 in original condition?

Mike, I've not forgotten this and think I've figured out the problem areas in the cad! Progress is slow as I'm fighting the keep the ice rink I teach at open at the moment (I would judge this a successful at the moment as it should've closed two weeks ago! However, we're not out of the woods yet...).
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Mike J on November 18, 2013, 06:49:52 am
How about the holy grail of n gauge locos, a P2 in original condition?

Mike, I've not forgotten this and think I've figured out the problem areas in the cad! Progress is slow as I'm fighting the keep the ice rink I teach at open at the moment (I would judge this a successful at the moment as it should've closed two weeks ago! However, we're not out of the woods yet...).

Best of luck with the ice rink Steve, I know which project is the more important, so we'll just have to wait on the P2. I hope you succeed on both fronts.
Mike
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jon P on December 16, 2013, 02:44:50 pm
N Gauge W1 Hush Hush 10000 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUkOi_hIGOs#ws)


 :laugh:
 :NGF:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: keerout on December 16, 2013, 07:16:47 pm
Great stuff!  :thumbsup:
Gerard  :wave:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jon P on December 16, 2013, 09:14:17 pm
Thanks Gerard
 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: ParkeNd on December 17, 2013, 12:47:34 am
Bl**dy brilliant.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Komata on December 17, 2013, 03:33:26 am
I see that a 'Garratt' was mentioned in an earlier posting. Any details?

 Thanks'
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: msr on March 09, 2016, 05:31:28 pm
Derek Rutherford has been hard at work creating the streamlined version of the W1. He has two types, the valenced one is based on a Minitrix A4.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/6/thumb_36488.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=36488)

The non-valenced version is based on the Farish A4. This one began life as a blue streak with red front bogie wheels (!) from eBay.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/6/thumb_36487.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=36487)

Derek converted this by extending the cab, mounting a new trailing bogie, respraying and lining. The paints used were: Phoenix P100 BR Loco Green pre-1954, Humbrol Satin Black 85, Railmatch Satin varnish, transfers by Fox.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/6/thumb_36489.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=36489)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/6/thumb_36490.JPG) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=36490)

Very convincing!
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on March 09, 2016, 05:49:14 pm
Nice models, similar to mine back on page one of this thread; though I extended the boiler also.

In BR days it had a non-corridor tender unless being modelled before April 1948 - not sure if it had BR livery Jan-April 1948?

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: msr on March 10, 2016, 08:45:32 am
Thanks for the comments, Alan. The livery on the model was inspired by the photo on page 89 of William Brown's book on the Hush-Hush, dated 31 July 1948 and attributed to the Ken Hoole Collection.

The photo appears to show a lack of lining below the cab window - we initially tried it with lining but it looked wrong, so off it came!
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on March 10, 2016, 09:35:01 am
Interesting - did it have a corridor tender then? If so, I wonder when it was changed - definitely lost it for most of its BR days from my readings and photo searches - I can't quite find the ones I used online now (was a few years ago), but this one is indicative as whilst not showing the rear, it shows the top enough to show no corridor section and also the footplate that runs along the tender base was only present on the non-corridor versions.

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8454/8057993052_435d8e65a5_b.jpg)

I am tempted to do one again at some point, this time based on a Dapol A4 rather than the more dated Farish model....

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: east anglian on March 10, 2016, 09:39:33 am
W1   cab   lining   also   on   page   94   in  the   same   book,    cannot   be    sure   about  the  corridor  tender  but  the   original   W1   ran  with  a   corridor  tender   and   I   would   assume  it    was   kept   on   the   same   locomotive   throughout,    I   believe   it   was   fitted   with   disc   wheels   and   is   still   in   use   today   on   the   A4    Union   of  South Africa,    I  was   also    informed   that   it    ran   at   a   later   date   with   the   kitten   on   the   ball   of   wool   and    may   have    had   the   cab   and   tender   lining    added,
Im   not    sure   on   these   points   but   I   do   my   best
East    Anglian
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on March 10, 2016, 10:00:38 am
W1   cab   lining   also   on   page   94   in  the   same   book,    cannot   be    sure   about  the  corridor  tender  but  the   original   W1   ran  with  a   corridor  tender   and   I   would   assume  it    was   kept   on   the   same   locomotive   throughout,    I   believe   it   was   fitted   with   disc   wheels   and   is   still   in   use   today   on   the   A4    Union   of  South Africa,    I  was   also    informed   that   it    ran   at   a   later   date   with   the   kitten   on   the   ball   of   wool   and    may   have    had   the   cab   and   tender   lining    added,


It did have full standard BR early crest livery, with normal cab and tender lining applied as in the photo above as well as:

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8063/8194785187_e114a3e936_b.jpg)

And below shows the early crest, lining not clear because of the muck, but it's there:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/7492828160/in/gallery-78719580@N06-72157654553035958/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/7492828160/in/gallery-78719580@N06-72157654553035958/)

Later it got BR late crest before withdrawal:

(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8486/8241890516_fc26ce6a64_k.jpg)

The tender was also definitely changed - I have photos of this (somewhere) and read reports of it changing at an overhaul April-June 1948. Tenders were often swapped about on Eastern I believe.

Other modellers seem to confirm this - most of the BR livery ones I've seen, for example the colossus of OO modelling who is Tony Wright's one:

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_07_2013/post-18225-0-93280000-1374857758.jpg)

EDIT- found this page where the derailment of 60700 shows clearly the tender it was towing at the time - non-corridor.

http://dominionofcanada.tumblr.com/post/102185954189/10000-60700-built-at-darlington-works-1929 (http://dominionofcanada.tumblr.com/post/102185954189/10000-60700-built-at-darlington-works-1929)

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Malc on March 10, 2016, 04:21:02 pm
My dad worked on the LNER and had a framed photo of the hush-hush when it was number 10000. Although it was in black and white, the loco looked silver and I always assumed it was painted like the Silver Link, Fox etc.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Fredastaire on September 03, 2017, 07:36:54 pm
I've recently done some repair work to what I'm guessing is a Derek Rutherford W1 no 10000 as first built, wow aren't they an attractive model.
I was really taken by the scratch building on a Farish A3 with brass sheet and the detailed intricacies added
My question is simple, has anybody got around to making a kit body yet?
Kind regards from Fred
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on September 04, 2017, 10:11:35 am
My question is simple, has anybody got around to making a kit body yet?

Sadly, the answer is no, not that I'm aware.

New traditional material kits (i.e. whitemetal or brass) seem to be a virtually non-existent happening in N now. It's a shame, as with all the new chassis options from new tool models there's a lot of potential.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Atso on September 04, 2017, 10:45:04 am
Sadly, the answer is no, not that I'm aware.

New traditional material kits (i.e. whitemetal or brass) seem to be a virtually non-existent happening in N now. It's a shame, as with all the new chassis options from new tool models there's a lot of potential.

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan,

While not traditional materials, the feedback I've received regarding my 3D prints was that it was the current cost of current donor models that was off putting to many people (even at current 'bargain' prices) and hence why sales are next to non-existent - not because of the nature of 3D prints which is what I'd initially suspected. I suspect that this is one of several factors that have contributed to a lack of development in N gauge locomotive kits.

I'd love a W1 but can't afford Mr Rutherford's ones (at least not until I find a new job!) but designing one myself is quite far back in the queue of things I have to do. If/when I get around to one, it'll most likely be in original condition as I've still not managed to successfully CAD the Bugatti nose - which is a shame as I'd love to do a streamlined B17 as well! I could try and use an existing rtr A4 nose but there were slight differences and successfully matching the body profiles between a donor and print is really an awful lot of time, work as well as numerous test prints to get the two close enough to be viable.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on September 04, 2017, 11:49:19 am
While not traditional materials, the feedback I've received regarding my 3D prints was that it was the current cost of current donor models that was off putting to many people (even at current 'bargain' prices) and hence why sales are next to non-existent - not because of the nature of 3D prints which is what I'd initially suspected. I suspect that this is one of several factors that have contributed to a lack of development in N gauge locomotive kits.

I understand that, though it's not so different than in the past - most had to shell out for a new loco to take the chassis from back in the day. Given the number of kit models I've seen with old Farish chassis, clearly there were more folk willing to do that then than there are now.

3D prints are an area that is still generating new kits, but there are a lot of older models that could be updated and reissued with options for new chassis. Instead we essentially have to buy secondhand ones and rebuild them. I've done that extensively to get models that simply can't be bought any more - J52, Fowler 2-6-4T (current build) and Garratt (although Lytchett Manor have since re-released this).

But I think there are just less people making things in general, more and more on the "buy, unbox, moan" brigade.

I'd love a W1 but can't afford Mr Rutherford's ones (at least not until I find a new job!) but designing one myself is quite far back in the queue of things I have to do. If/when I get around to one, it'll most likely be in original condition as I've still not managed to successfully CAD the Bugatti nose - which is a shame as I'd love to do a streamlined B17 as well! I could try and use an existing rtr A4 nose but there were slight differences and successfully matching the body profiles between a donor and print is really an awful lot of time, work as well as numerous test prints to get the two close enough to be viable.

Just use an A4 - the differences will be subtle enough at the front end. Where you need to get it right is the rear end with an smooth unbroken footplate etc - my W1 experience says that's far more noticable.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dorsetmike on September 04, 2017, 12:02:09 pm
We did discuss kits back in early August

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38400.msg458642#msg458642 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=38400.msg458642#msg458642)

The main problem would seem to be wheels and possibly a suitable tender drive; Colin Heard is closed until next week so can't run any ideas past him re wheels and drives. Apart from the 2mm people does anybody know of a producer of N gauge wheels, obviously Colin must either produce his own or has a reliable source.

The loco chassis need not be a problem if we can use the same method as UM, a keper plate grooved for the axles. Etched brass coupling rods would not be a problem, however valve gear could be more of a problem so maybe initially restrict the models as do UM by modelling locos with inside cylinders, thus no visible gear. Loads of 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s to choose from, I can think of 6 ex LSWR types & more than 6 ex SECR/SR, bound to be plenty more from other companies except possibly GWR, mostly outside cylindered 4-6-0s which have already been modelled.


Perhaps one of our 3D experts could say if viable bogies could be produce by 3D print.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on September 04, 2017, 12:28:33 pm
It's an interesting read.

But the fundamental sentiment seems to be the same - "can someone else please design us a kit for x/y/z". I think in reality this is basically not financially viable for the majority of prototypes out there.

The difference in my impression is that in the past seems to be that folk had a pretty limited choice, so they either build from scratch or kit and make something work themselves; or just don't have it, and don't moan about it. Now it seems very few want to build something themselves or even attempt it, making a catch 22 of blaming lack of experience for having a lack of experience.

It's just sad that we see so few saying "I want X loco, and I'm just going to make it from what I have available", given that the range of what's available now is so much larger than back when so many of the early whitemetal kits were first produced.

Whitemetal still has a place IMHO - a lot see it as cruder, but with brass detailing parts it can look really good, and has the massive advantage of solid weight which can be a real problem for light 3D prints.

If we wait for everything we want to be made as a kit we'll never get it I'm afraid - scratchbuilding and modding is the only credible route to many prototypes.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Atso on September 04, 2017, 02:38:30 pm
The only wheels that were produced by a small supplier were the old Beaver wheels that you use Mike. As you know they've not be produced for years now but (other than the oversize flange) hold their own quite well against modern offerings in looks. I know that a few of 2mm modellers experimented with 3D printed wheel centres for use with the 2mm Association tyres but this doesn't seem to have been successful.

I believe that Colin at Union Mills has his tyres turned for him but the plastic insert representing the spokes I think is done in house.

In theory a 3D printed chassis or bogie is possible in some of the finer materials (to get the tolerances) but I wouldn't want to even begin guessing what the lifespan of said chassis would be (other than very short!). Alan Cox played around with a motor bogie produced in 'Strong White and Flexible' by Shapeways but this wouldn't appear to be the material to use despite it's strength and cheap pricing. FUD seems to be ok for wagon and coach bogies and I've not experienced any significant wear with mine so far but I wouldn't trust if with a working mechanism or coupling rods.

I think Alan has hit the nail on the head regarding a large number of possible prototypes out there. I've produced one or two bits for others in the past at a low price because I've been assured that they would be great sellers only to find that I have sold one or two total over three years! If you think about the time taken to research the subject, taken to source drawings, correct any known errors on the drawings, measure up everything from the drawings and create the CAD, you can easily be looking at a couple of weeks work (absolute minimum with easily sourced and good references) to produce a loco or coach/wagon body print. That's not taking into account any money spend on purchasing the reference material in the first place and definitely not costing all the time taken up to that point.

Pre-grouping subjects are (usually) wonderful looking prototypes but many didn't make it as far as nationalisation. If you assume that the total N gauge market is around 10,000 modellers (twice the size of the NGS) and that c. 60% of the model steam, that'll give you 6,000 potential customers. Now if c. 25% of those model pre Nationalisation (based on some conversions with manufacturers regarding livery sales) that'll bring that number down to 1,500. So that's potentially 1,500 customers which would be great but how many of those would be prepared to build a kit? I'd suggest that number would be less than 10% and now you've also got to consider that (keeping with the grouping era for simplicity) there were four main railway companies all (with a handful of exceptions) operating different locomotive - some of which were tied to a geographical area for all their lives.

From a purely personally perspective, when I started Atso-Cad, I was simply trying to share some of my own models with similarly minded people - my own interests cover the LNER and specifically the GNR, GER and GCR sections with a splattering of NER thrown in. My own prints have many many hours put into getting them as right as I can (and even then someone is sure to find something I missed!) and with only a couple of exceptions are of prototypes I personally wanted. I have no problem producing other things as 3D prints but this would either need to be covered by somebody commissioning the design or a 100% guarantee that I'm going to sell 50 to 100 models as a minimum (as my own markup on Shapeways is minimum to keep my prices comparable to the likes of Langley) to cover my costs and time. To give an indication how likely I think it would be to sell that number of models, I don't think I've sold 100 3D printed models on Shapeways since I started there several years ago and all I do with the sales I do make is, more or less, covering the costs of the Atso-Cad webpage.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dorsetmike on September 04, 2017, 04:17:55 pm
I suspect Colin's wheels are metal; pick up is from the axle on one side, the other side there is a plastic bush to insulate.

My idea using Colin's wheels, or similar, is for a  grooved metal keeper plate which would have an electrical connection; the UM loco bodies are white metal so are connected to one rail, the tender to the other rail, the drawbar is plastic. The wire from the tender is connected to the body; with a 3D printed body it presumably would not conduct, hence using metal keeper plate with some form of connector.

Would a resin cast body be cheaper to produce? The design work would be the same, is casting a cheaper process than 3D print?

Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on September 04, 2017, 04:21:20 pm
The only wheels that were produced by a small supplier were the old Beaver wheels that you use Mike. As you know they've not be produced for years now but (other than the oversize flange) hold their own quite well against modern offerings in looks.

Have many people ever really successfully used these though? Quartering them wasn't straightforward, and the axles I saw gripped the wheel so hard that getting it off again to adjust quartering was nigh on impossible without damaging their centres.

They used to be on my C12 as it was originally unearthed, but the wobbles it had were incurable for just this reason, meaning they were ultimately scrapped and replaced with Farish 3MT wheels.

Therefore, using RTR wheels for me is still the only real option.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Dr Al on September 04, 2017, 04:34:38 pm
In theory a 3D printed chassis or bogie is possible in some of the finer materials (to get the tolerances) but I wouldn't want to even begin guessing what the lifespan of said chassis would be (other than very short!).

In terms of lifespan, it's something overlooked when looking at UM. Their soft material does appear to wear very badly in some cases - I've seen some relatively new ones that are badly worn. For slow plodding freight locos I have less concerns as the wear should take longer; but for larger express locos I've steered clear of using them for this reason.

If you assume that the total N gauge market is around 10,000 modellers (twice the size of the NGS)

Mentioning NGS is worth picking up on - they too have erred more and more toward pushing their RTR products rather than their own kits. Nice as many of the RTR are, it does feel like the kits are no longer the Society's star/unique products.

But maybe that's today's natural climate - while they seem to have sold plenty of their recent kits, e.g. Gresley fullbrake, which has been out of stock for a long time, one wonders how many of them have ever been made - I've only seen 2 made, and I made them! I read recently (somewhere I forget) that as few as 10% of kits sold are actually ever completed.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Atso on September 04, 2017, 05:22:54 pm
I suspect Colin's wheels are metal; pick up is from the axle on one side, the other side there is a plastic bush to insulate.

That's exactly how Colin makes his wheels Mike.  :)

Would a resin cast body be cheaper to produce? The design work would be the same, is casting a cheaper process than 3D print?

My own experience would suggest that this is a case of swings and roundabouts. Casting wise, on an upfront cost basis, it depends if you are going to cast in house or sub the casting out to a firm. Obviously the more reputable firms will produce the better castings but usually at a higher price. You've then got to consider that, if you are not a regular customer, you'll have to put all the money forward first and then wait until you get a slot - and you'll likely be bumped down several times as bigger/better orders come through.

To do it in house is cheaper at the first glance but you'll still need to acquire the mould making materials, resin and equipment to produce a good quality bubble free casting; as good as you can get anyway. However, offsetting this is learning skills required and the time taken to mix, pour, degas/vacuum/pressure the liquid resin to get the best results. Also, there are many things you can produce as a single piece as a print that cannot be easily cast (if at all), this increases the time take at the design, production (and number) of masters, the mould making and casting phases (this effects using a professional company as well). You've also got the time taken to count out the various bits and pieces and package them (still required if using a casting firm) before being able to send them off (if you're lucky enough to sell anything!  :P ) either direct to the customer or to a reseller (who would also want their own markup). All of this takes time which needs to be factored in and have a cost associated with it, all of which would affect the final price - and not forgetting the time taken writing and producing instructions!

The beauty of 3D printing via a third party such as Shapeways is that they handle the printing and postage direct to the customer for a fixed costs - how they make their business model work, I don't know but it obvious does. However, given that my own experience is that 3D prints sell very slowly (if at all), is this really such an advantage?

White metal casting is completely different animal to resin castings if you are looking for consistent professional results. To get these you are looking at a centrifuge casting machine and vulcanised rubber moulds. Simple gravity casting is possible (i.e. 'tin' soldiers) but with the fine detail expected in N gauge my own limited attempts at this would suggest a high reject rate without using more advanced equipment - although at least you can reuse the metal.

Etching is something I wouldn't recommend doing at home for any serious production - that's something that I would personally always sub out to a company geared up to do it and I've never achieved any results that could be compared to those of a professional company. Again, there is the design time, setup and recurring costs to take into account (as well as any revisions which will require the setup costs to be paid again) plus the time to separate the various etch frets from each other (you have to etch a minimum size and therefore join various frets of bits together for this process) and package them.

The final thing to consider is can a living be made from this? The national average wage is around 27k at the moment or 519.23 a week. If you assume that a loco kit can sell for 40 and half of that price is taken up by material costs (it's unfortunately usually much more than that depending on the complexity!), that would mean that to make selling kits a worthwhile exercise you'd need to guarantee selling at least 26 locomotive kits per week (realistically more like 50+). Obviously rolling stock could help but the price acceptable to the market is more often than not less than that of a loco - despite the cost in materials and time being the same or sometimes more. If you're expecting the minimum run life of a kit to be 50 units, that'll mean that you're looking to increase your range by at least one new kit every two weeks (doable but difficult if you're not spending time producing as well as designing) and hoping that you've managed to pick a prototype that'll sell well.

I'm not saying from the above that it can't be done, others have proven it can (although I wonder what their returns and wages are). However, to become established and make the effort of casting worthwhile takes time to achieve and that'll be where my question mark is at the moment regarding viability. Sadly some of the best white metal kits (in my opinion anyway) Foxhunter, ABS/Beaver(?) and Graham Hughes are no longer available and it would appear that no-one else was willing to take up the production. I do wonder why this is as they were exceptionally good kits.
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Atso on September 04, 2017, 05:24:03 pm
The only wheels that were produced by a small supplier were the old Beaver wheels that you use Mike. As you know they've not be produced for years now but (other than the oversize flange) hold their own quite well against modern offerings in looks.

Have many people ever really successfully used these though? Quartering them wasn't straightforward, and the axles I saw gripped the wheel so hard that getting it off again to adjust quartering was nigh on impossible without damaging their centres.

They used to be on my C12 as it was originally unearthed, but the wobbles it had were incurable for just this reason, meaning they were ultimately scrapped and replaced with Farish 3MT wheels.

Therefore, using RTR wheels for me is still the only real option.

Cheers,
Alan

I'll admit to having several sets squirrelled away but I've not tried using any of them yet...
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Atso on September 04, 2017, 05:33:28 pm
In terms of lifespan, it's something overlooked when looking at UM. Their soft material does appear to wear very badly in some cases - I've seen some relatively new ones that are badly worn. For slow plodding freight locos I have less concerns as the wear should take longer; but for larger express locos I've steered clear of using them for this reason.

I'll have to agree with you here Alan as I've got my first UM locomotive that is exhibiting signs of wears and the method of production effectively means that both the chassis and loco will have to be replaced if I cannot bodge some kind of repair. However, any material used for moving/working parts will eventually wear out it is just a matter of how long the material used will last - eventually all those Dapol/Farish locomotives will wear out as well (but hopefully not for a long while!).

Mentioning NGS is worth picking up on - they too have erred more and more toward pushing their RTR products rather than their own kits. Nice as many of the RTR are, it does feel like the kits are no longer the Society's star/unique products.

But maybe that's today's natural climate - while they seem to have sold plenty of their recent kits, e.g. Gresley fullbrake, which has been out of stock for a long time, one wonders how many of them have ever been made - I've only seen 2 made, and I made them! I read recently (somewhere I forget) that as few as 10% of kits sold are actually ever completed.

Yes, I find it interesting that the NGS has made a move towards rtr in (apparent) preference to kits. I personally think that this is a shame as there are many prototypes that could (in theory) be more cheaply covered as kits - the irony of my statement here when considering my posts above isn't lost on me!  :smiley-laughing:

I wonder if this is representative of the NGS understanding that there has been a fundamental shift away from kit building and, while more expensive to product, rtr is more likely to generate returns quicker to allow investment into other projects.

I've seen two more Gresley Full Brakes built so that makes at least four! Sadly this doesn't include my own which is still sitting half built.  :(

Sorry to the original poster as this thread has wandered way off topic!  :sorrysign:
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: joe cassidy on September 04, 2017, 06:34:27 pm
My NGS Gresley full brake is built and may be one of the few in LNER "teak" livery.

I also built the Andy Calvert memorial BR horse kit.

I was disappointed that the NGS did not follow these up with more coach kits, catering vehicles in particular.

Going back to loco kits, surely the Poole Farish locos that have been superceded by new versions must be affordable ?

My "obselete" Duchess, Jinty and 4F will all be converted into something else "one day".

Best regards,


Joe
Title: Re: W1 Hush Hush
Post by: Jim Martin on September 23, 2017, 03:50:14 pm
Mentioning NGS is worth picking up on - they too have erred more and more toward pushing their RTR products rather than their own kits. Nice as many of the RTR are, it does feel like the kits are no longer the Society's star/unique products.

But maybe that's today's natural climate - while they seem to have sold plenty of their recent kits, e.g. Gresley fullbrake, which has been out of stock for a long time, one wonders how many of them have ever been made - I've only seen 2 made, and I made them! I read recently (somewhere I forget) that as few as 10% of kits sold are actually ever completed.

Judging from the regular accounts in the Newsletter of the difficulties faced by the guys who are trying to get the NGS kit range packed, I'd guess that RTR is a lot easier from an administrative point of view than kits are. If you commission an RTR model, you're presumably dealing with one supplier (I'm not speaking from experience here) whereas with a kit you have to deal with one supplier for the moulding, another for any etched bits, another for the decals etc, and then have to get all those delivered at the same time and put them together into an actual kit.

No doubt Ben A has vastly more insight into this than I do (not that high a bar), but it certainly seems possible from what I've seen reported.

Jim