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Your Layout and Models => Layout Planning => Topic started by: Black Sheep on November 13, 2015, 10:38:16 pm

Title: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on November 13, 2015, 10:38:16 pm
[edit Nov 2017] This topic is the initial planning of the layout and then becomes the more in-depth technical side of things [/edit]


I've been working on this for a little while and would welcome some feedback on it

Moving from left to right, we've got the cliffs with not Butlins on the top, linked down to the spa/lido by a cliff railway, this serves to hide the return and reversing loops.

moving right from here you can see the road come along the promenade and past the pier to the station and onwards into town.

behind the railway, moving back towards not Butlins we move gradually out from town past houses and factories which serve to block the view of the exchange (storage) sidings.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/MGalleryItem.php?id=31780)

so moving from right to left we go town centre feel, through suburban towards rural with the railway up on arches.

The two parts I'm a bit unsure on are the goods yard wedged in where it is and the depot

welcome suggestions and comments :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on November 13, 2015, 10:48:54 pm
Looks interesting.
What is the size (overall) of the whole layout please ?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 13, 2015, 11:16:52 pm
I can't actually remember, I know it's 3ft 3in front to back, the actual length has changed often between 12ft, 16ft and 14ft as I plan how I can shuffle things in the loft, I think it's 14ft in that plan
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Ditape on November 13, 2015, 11:55:31 pm
My first thought was have you got easy access to the back of the layout if not you may find 3ft3ins a bit of a stretch.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on November 14, 2015, 11:05:42 am
Looks a very good plan with lots of operational and scenic interest. It's worth remembering that with UK outline the outer loop travels in a clockwise direction so you may want to check point placement/type by running an imaginary train round it.
I'm assuming the storage/exchange yard is going to be visible rather than hidden behind a backscene?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: cornish yorkie on November 14, 2015, 01:24:38 pm
 :hellosign: nice plan, look forward to seeing this develop.
regards Derek.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 14, 2015, 10:33:49 pm
The layout will be only 3ft off the floor as it sits under the eves in the loft, I'll be sitting on a wheelie chair scooting back and forth, I'll also be able to lean over that depth to grab anything that's off the rails.

With it being LMS facing points were avoided where possible, the layout is set on the West Coast making the left hand end North and the right hand South, the long siding in the station and the long headshunt south of the station are both to facilitate storing trip trains having brought tourists for the day / week etc.
The bays are going to be shunt released and can run round the reverse loop.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Bealman on November 14, 2015, 11:10:22 pm
Interesting possibilities here. I'm a big fan of bay platform operations and like your bay set up  very much.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on November 15, 2015, 12:13:10 am
Its great to see another LMS fan on here, I thought I was the only one?

Keep the update coming
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 15, 2015, 10:16:10 pm
Interesting possibilities here. I'm a big fan of bay platform operations and like your bay set up  very much.  :thumbsup:

Thanks,

In practice you're likely to find the bays get used for stabling coaches a fair bit as, due to being on a viaduct, it's hard to expand facilities to meet the demand of the tourist trains, ah well, in another 20 years everyone will have  cars Ö


Its great to see another LMS fan on here, I thought I was the only one?

Keep the update coming

howdo, think we've met before :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on November 15, 2015, 10:23:08 pm
Interesting possibilities here. I'm a big fan of bay platform operations and like your bay set up  very much.  :thumbsup:

Thanks,

In practice you're likely to find the bays get used for stabling coaches a fair bit as, due to being on a viaduct, it's hard to expand facilities to meet the demand of the tourist trains, ah well, in another 20 years everyone will have  cars Ö


Its great to see another LMS fan on here, I thought I was the only one?

Keep the update coming

howdo, think we've met before :)

We have but on a different site, hows it going you have been very quiet  ???
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 15, 2015, 10:29:26 pm
I have been on there and as you can see have made a little more progress on the plans.

Currently have decorators painting the hallway and myself painting the kitchen and conservatory!
Add to that working over my finishing time and it taking longer than it should to escape Trafford Park on two wheels
How's yourself?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on November 15, 2015, 10:34:28 pm
I have been on there and as you can see have made a little more progress on the plans.

Currently have decorators painting the hallway and myself painting the kitchen and conservatory!
Add to that working over my finishing time and it taking longer than it should to escape Trafford Park on two wheels
How's yourself?

I'm not too bad, still working stupid hours, still trying to get my head round how it can take two hours to get from Widnes to Carrington some mornings.

Just managed to get the layout back together after yesterdays exhibition, and had an hour playing, sorry testing it. Found out my Black 5's are all running a little lumpy

Oh and I found out from the chaps on here that my layout will be in the January edition of Railway Modeller.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 15, 2015, 10:52:04 pm
Excellent, congrats on being in RM!

My two ambitions are to exhibit a layout and to have it in a magazine.

Feel free to give me a shout if you need an operator for exhibitions in the Manchester / Rossendale area
give me a shout if you're exhibiting in the Manchester / Rossendale area and I'll come put a face to the name :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on November 16, 2015, 07:36:49 am
Excellent, congrats on being in RM!

My two ambitions are to exhibit a layout and to have it in a magazine.

Feel free to give me a shout if you need an operator for exhibitions in the Manchester / Rossendale area
give me a shout if you're exhibiting in the Manchester / Rossendale area and I'll come put a face to the name :)

Hey if I can do it anyone can.

Does that mean I have another victim, sorry I mean volunteer for the operating crew  :D
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 16, 2015, 07:59:17 pm

Hey if I can do it anyone can.

Does that mean I have another victim, sorry I mean volunteer for the operating crew  :D


Sure, might only be able to do one day but if it's of help then I'm up for it.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on November 16, 2015, 08:27:01 pm

Hey if I can do it anyone can.

Does that mean I have another victim, sorry I mean volunteer for the operating crew  :D


Sure, might only be able to do one day but if it's of help then I'm up for it.

Not a problem, we may even get you a Foster Street - crew shirt
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on October 17, 2016, 11:11:24 pm
So, it's taken some time, and sorry for lack of updates. I've been better at keeping RMweb updated but not so much in recent months (it also seems to have gone quiet over there)

Planning to spend a bit more time here now that I'm making progress on the layout.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/44/1230-171016225231.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=44669)

So, a quick run through, the idea is to run from left to right going from a rural-ish feel, through suburbs and industrial into commercial town centre a little bit like the excellent 'Frankland' does (If you've not seen Frankland, go search it out and have a look!)

So, the left hand end is a cliff since Millideale on Sea sits in a bay nestled between cliff tops somewhere on the Lancashire coast - we're not entirely sure where as we used to arrive by train to stay at Auntie Norah's for our week's summer holiday and this layout is built out of fond memories after the war was won and the country was doing well at finding it's feet (well it would be if I was actually old enough, I was born far far too late to enjoy steam on the mainline but hey)

now, where was I? Oh, yes, at the left hand side is the cliff overlooking the bay, Mr Butlin has put in an application to build some chalets, whatever those are, on the cliff top and a funicular railway down to the spa centre, as we follow the promenade along the front we find a frontage of tall, bay windowed guest houses, reaching the station hotel and the driveway up to the station. Beyond this and past the pier there's the theatre which also shows some moving pictures and then duck under the railway to head inland into the town past the gasworks.

Instead of turning into town we can turn left at the gasometer and, with the goods yard and station to our left we can head along, passing shops in front of the locomotive depot on our right and short, stubby terraced streets to our left we soon pass the Black Sheep brewery, a factory, school and church, (behind which the marshalling yard sits) before finally coming to Simon Services garage on the junction where we can turn back under the railway to the spa, or up the hill to see what on earth a chalet is!


In terms of operation of the layout, all is on show, the loco depot intended to house all locomotives not on duty and occasionally playing host to excursion trains from the LNER (we're deeply in LMS country here) next to the depot is the marshalling yard housing and sorting all manor of freight as it passes north and south along the secondary route on the Lancashire / Cumbrian coast (left is North towards the Lakes and Scotland, right is South towards Blackpool, Liverpool and Manchester)

moving North of the marshalling yard we head into a cutting (and later a tunnel) with a branch heading into a tunnel far sooner than the lines in the cutting.

Moving West to the seafront two lines from the North exit the tunnel into the station, you may have noticed a line in the station that is simply a siding - this is a relief siding in which excursion trains can be tucked if there is no space for them in the bays.

Speaking of the bays, this is the original station build by the Victorian railway companies bringing passengers from Manchester, it was only slightly later that the through platforms were built. The bays will be operated as shunt relief, either by a pilot or by the new working.

East of the station is the new goods yard as the old goods yard was built over by the expansion of the station.


So, any questions / suggestions etc, feel free :)


The layout is 15ft x 3ft spread over 4 Tim Horn baseboards (1x 3ft x 3ft, 3x 3ft x 4ft)

Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Sprintex on October 18, 2016, 08:19:59 am
Very well thought out :thumbsup:


Paul
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on October 18, 2016, 11:14:56 am
I like the era, location and track plan but most of all the idea of the Black Sheep brewery.
Put me down for a visit please :pint: ;)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on October 18, 2016, 12:41:52 pm
There was a layout "Milliedale Brew Lane" that I started on, re-started on after my toddler learnt to climb onto the glass topped coffee table and has sat on it's shelf doing not a lot for quite some time, I'm planning on just re-using the buildings from that.

The chimney does have the name down it, might add Fred at some point :)

why Black Sheep when the real brewery is in not in Lancashire?

I like the beer, which is from Yorkshire, like myself, except I live in Lancashire (actually Gtr Manchester)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on October 18, 2016, 01:07:06 pm

why Black Sheep when the real brewery is in not in Lancashire?

I like the beer, which is from Yorkshire, like myself, except I live in Lancashire (actually Gtr Manchester)

I've taken on a few pints of Black Sheep in my life.........................and lost.
I was getting excited about you possibly building a brewery in Lancashire (which is where I live) but I guess the War of the Roses will probably put paid to that notion!
I'll just have to make do with a 'Black Sheep' mirror hanging in my hallway.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on October 18, 2016, 05:32:33 pm
I've taken on a few pints of Black Sheep in my life.........................and lost.
I was getting excited about you possibly building a brewery in Lancashire (which is where I live) but I guess the War of the Roses will probably put paid to that notion!
I'll just have to make do with a 'Black Sheep' mirror hanging in my hallway.

I was introduced to real ale by my girlfriend of the time, Millie (now my wife) with a selection of beers which I sampled in ascending order of alcohol volume, finishing with a pint of Riggwelter :)

I don't have a Black Sheep mirror in my hallway, but I do have one removed from the Wharf Cottage in Ilkley from when my in-laws used to run it, it's likely the layout will have a fair few pubs on it taking their names from pubs run by the in-laws just to see if my mother in law notices :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: cornish yorkie on October 19, 2016, 10:21:23 pm
 :hellosign: From another Yorkshire man who has moved even further. Excellent plan look forward to developments
regards Derek.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: dannyboy on October 19, 2016, 10:34:31 pm
And here's another Yorkshireman who has moved even further. I was stationed in Ilkley for a few years in the late 70's and early 80's. Was the Wharfe Cottage just down the Skipton Road from the traffic lights, (memory is going a bit these days  :)).  :beers:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on October 19, 2016, 11:26:24 pm
And here's another Yorkshireman who has moved even further. I was stationed in Ilkley for a few years in the late 70's and early 80's. Was the Wharfe Cottage just down the Skipton Road from the traffic lights, (memory is going a bit these days  :)).  :beers:

I couldn't tell you where it was unfortunately as I didn't know them then.
They used to do Allo Allo nights and rocky horror nights etc
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 27, 2016, 09:54:01 pm
Baseboards are built!!!!!!

Need to lay out some buildings and get a feel for where and how things will fit.

Should I be creating a build topic to continue on from here? What is the etiquette here?

I'll continue the technical side of things here I guess or just do the lot here?

What to do?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on November 28, 2016, 09:28:45 am
You are no longer planning but are now constructing so I would put everything from now into a new thread in the 'Layout Construction' section
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 28, 2016, 05:05:01 pm
I will do so in due course then, currently need to lay the plan out on the boards and do some sketch modeling so the two topics may run in parallel for a month or two :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on November 28, 2016, 06:02:16 pm
I will do so in due course then, currently need to lay the plan out on the boards and do some sketch modeling so the two topics may run in parallel for a month or two :)

Get some modelling done
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 28, 2016, 08:06:33 pm

Get some modelling done

Station building being assembled
Goods shed next
Then station hotel

These can then be placed on track plan to work out spacing along with other buildings.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on November 28, 2016, 08:08:51 pm

Get some modelling done

Station building being assembled
Goods shed next
Then station hotel

These can then be placed on track plan to work out spacing along with other buildings.
Looking forward to the pictures of the buildings. Yet another Station Hotel to join the merry band on here.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 29, 2016, 12:35:29 pm
Looking forward to the pictures of the buildings. Yet another Station Hotel to join the merry band on here.

If you could name drop a couple of layouts with station hotels for how others have approached the station hotel I'd appreciate the inspiration

I'm currently considering using the Faller post office with some big chimneys added
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on November 29, 2016, 09:13:34 pm
Mine (on Trepol Bay) is only half relief and I'm not entirely happy with the roof but it works for me.
(http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu257/martinscane/c18_zpsykgwf4no.jpg) (http://s653.photobucket.com/user/martinscane/media/c18_zpsykgwf4no.jpg.html)
It's to the right of the footbridge. I know it's a bit distant but you can probably see (just about) what it looks like. Serves fine ales by the Headland Brewery and Castle Brewery by the way.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 30, 2016, 05:17:13 pm
Mine (on Trepol Bay) is only half relief and I'm not entirely happy with the roof but it works for me.
([url]http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu257/martinscane/c18_zpsykgwf4no.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s653.photobucket.com/user/martinscane/media/c18_zpsykgwf4no.jpg.html[/url])
It's to the right of the footbridge. I know it's a bit distant but you can probably see (just about) what it looks like. Serves fine ales by the Headland Brewery and Castle Brewery by the way.


I did have a look at your layout assuming you'd have a station hotel and did spot it but presumed it to be a large pub - sorry!
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on November 30, 2016, 08:22:02 pm
Ah, large pub or small hotel.
Either fits the bill  :beers:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Jerry Howlett on December 01, 2016, 10:51:51 am

Mine is near the Station but has delusions of grandeur.

Actually it is a adapted Scalescenes Large station.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/276-011216104844.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=45877)

Jerry
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on December 01, 2016, 06:37:10 pm

Mine is near the Station but has delusions of grandeur.

Actually it is a adapted Scalescenes Large station.
([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/45/276-011216104844.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=45877[/url])
Perhaps there is a big national hotel chain lurking to take over all these hotels  :D :D
Jerry
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on December 20, 2016, 11:29:00 am
I've started to look into the history of Milliedale on Sea in another thread (the layout build thread) here: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35646.0 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=35646.0)

This thread will continue as I tweak the track plan and finish building the boards and get track laid and point motors set up and working, once trains are running we'll move development of the scenery across there.

So, boards, track and spaghetti (wiring) etc will be in here, above the board will be in that topic, along with a potted history of my fictional little world :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on March 02, 2017, 12:17:35 pm
I'm at a sticking point, I need to work out the raised track bed height before I can progress, for this I need to work out what the ground level on the baseboard should be.

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/49/1230-020317121647.jpeg)

I have a flat baseboard onto which everything will be built, the sea will be stuck to the board, the track will be raised up to 43.5mm above ground level based on the scalescenes arches kit
The beach will rise slightly towards the sea wall / prom with the pier going from prom level out over the beach
What height should the pink, raised ground level be to ensure the beach and prom look right without being too high as overhead height is limited in the room as I'm in the loft!
I've possibly not given enough detail so feel free to ask!
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on March 02, 2017, 02:17:13 pm
Googling 'what height is the average seawall?' drew this Wickedpedia page but it does not give a height :doh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawall

Without knowing average sea/tidal conditions my best guess would be 15-20ft high between sea level and any road beyond the seawall :hmmm:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on March 02, 2017, 02:21:50 pm
indeed, there is no fixed height, sea wall heights differ a lot from place to place, Scarborough for example has two bays each side of the headland, the north bay having the sea wall about my waist height (so 3ft) above the beach, south bay being lower, around 1.5-2ft

I'm set on Morcambe bay, somewhere a little south of the Lune
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: daveg on March 02, 2017, 05:27:53 pm
If it's any help, have a look at this photo:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastings#/media/File:Bottle_Alley_Hastings.jpg

The road is at the level of the white railings where the guy is sitting on the bench.

Looks like 15+ feet to me but just a wild guess.

Dave G
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: PLD on March 03, 2017, 07:55:28 am
The answer is precisely "2 pieces of string..."

The next question is...  ;)

Reality is every one is different - just look at the resort nearest your supposed location and experiment until it looks right.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Bealman on March 03, 2017, 08:08:39 am
When it comes to model railways, I follow the old RM slogan:

For the average modeller.

Forget finescale dimensions, if it looks right, it is right.

I still admire the 2mm finescale modellers, by the way. I just don't have the time or patience to go down that route.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on March 03, 2017, 08:18:33 am
I agree wholeheartedly with Bealman.
If it looks good to the eye then it's ok. I have two sea walls on my layouts and both are different heights but to me look ok.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Yet_Another on March 03, 2017, 09:18:15 am
In reality, the answer is probably 'it depends'.

Here are some things off the top of my head that might affect it:

- The height of the foreshore above or below Mean High Water (MHW) upon which the wall is built
- The difference in height between Mean Low Water and Mean High Water (this can vary dramatically)
- Likelihood of exposure to storm surges/extreme storms (north west facing coastline)
- The value of the land behind the sea wall (eg. a once in 50 year flood might be acceptable for low value land)

So as others have said, if there are any walls around the area you're modelling, take a look at them, but only build what looks right.

Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on March 03, 2017, 12:27:06 pm
Thanks everyone,

The issue I'm having is two-fold and discussing it helps it become clearer what these are:

1) making the sea wall higher takes up space for ramps / stairs onto the beach, possibly making the scene appear cramped, this also possibly causes issues with head-room for the railway itself due to the ceiling height in the loft.

2) it needs to work to look right which makes it right, either the pier ends up cutting the beach in half except at low tide due to head height, allowing a lower ground level giving more height over the layout at the back. I think someone needs to be able to, or appear able to walk under the pier.

The Lancashire coast can get pretty stormy:

(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/28/article-2591542-004B221300000258-779_964x666.jpg)

We're North of Blackpool & Fleetwood but south of Carnforth, Heysham etc

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/49/1230-030317122539.jpeg)

As you can see, Milliedale on Sea is quite forgotten about today!

an archive picture from our neighbour resort further down the coast give an idea about the interaction between pier and beach
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/28/article-2591542-1CA3A7C100000578-905_964x971.jpg)

You can't get under the pier to walk along except at lower tides, and at really low tide you could walk out almost to the end of the pier - question is, while this feels normal when you're on the beach yourself, will it look right on a model?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on April 01, 2017, 10:14:09 pm
So, as part of working out heights etc I've started creating the trackbed,

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_04_2017/post-10525-0-13042600-1491080838_thumb.jpg)

This has been placed roughly where it's going to be height-wise

(http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_04_2017/post-10525-0-75747500-1491080916_thumb.jpg)

Next task is to build a sea wall and some mock-ups
I've got a fair idea of the height I want to go with, so we'll see where we get to.

need to work out wiring and finish building the controller!
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on April 02, 2017, 05:23:12 am
Thanks for the update.
That looks a fascinating building bottom right. Can I ask what it is please?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on April 02, 2017, 08:10:52 pm
Hi,

The bridge is a KS Laser one, actually based on one by Oxford Road station, Manchester which I tend to park my bike under when we go on a work night out in a nearby bar!

The building next to it is a GF Scenecraft Hampton Lodge but when it's in the box you see the other side with the tower tucked in the back corner of the box.

(https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/44-034_1.jpg)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: daveg on April 03, 2017, 06:17:54 am
Really nice and I have a place for one but I can only find it in 00, which is a shame!  :(

Dave G
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on April 06, 2017, 11:56:22 am
grrrr, the board I cut at the weekend has warped, it's a cross between banked corner and helix which is a bit odd, can't decide if it has to be thrown or can be flattened out again / braced straight

This section doesn't need to have clear areas under it as there's no viaduct at this point...

suggestions please
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Nik96 on April 06, 2017, 12:19:48 pm
It may be worth the added bracing all over unless this area is particularly "Underbraced".

As to replacement its worth trying to rebrace to see if it'll work.

Though as it's quite early in the build it may be worth replacing it and adding extra braces to prolong the future of your layout.

I've just realised how un useful that was
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: daveg on April 06, 2017, 12:37:39 pm
Haven't looked back to see if you mentioned what materials you were using but unless it's a real pain to do, physically or financially, I think I'd replace the board.

My attempts to straighten out boards that have decided to curl have met with failure but just maybe if I'd doubled the battens size from 2"x1" it may have worked.

Hope you get it sorted and sorry if I'm no help or comfort!  :(

Dave G
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on April 06, 2017, 05:19:37 pm
Haven't looked back to see if you mentioned what materials you were using but unless it's a real pain to do, physically or financially, I think I'd replace the board.

My attempts to straighten out boards that have decided to curl have met with failure but just maybe if I'd doubled the battens size from 2"x1" it may have worked.

Hope you get it sorted and sorry if I'm no help or comfort!  :(

Dave G

The baseboards themselves are fine, they're 9mm laser cut ply, it's the 9mm ply I cut over the weekend for the trackbed, it's not attached to anything at the moment so deciding if it's warped this quickly do I want to go ahead and fix it to supports or scrap it and try and get some that doesn't warp
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: daveg on April 06, 2017, 06:55:15 pm
Apologies for misunderstanding the problem.

I think I'd still want to try and find a more stable material.

Perhaps those here that have better knowledge can advise you.

Dave G
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on April 22, 2017, 12:31:43 pm
There's been a slight pause on construction (as you've noticed) while I wait and see what happens with the plywood already cut.

Work has continued on the church at work and also on the electronics (need to test parts and continue building) both of which will feature in due course.

one of the ends has kind of ski-ramped in the final inch of the board which is simply not going to be good enough so I have been considering my route forwards from here.

two options really are open to me, better quality plywood, letting it settle in the room before cutting but this would involve it not being flat during the settling time and carted up and down two lots of stairs to settle, down to cut, up to fit.

this would allow me to go with my original plan of the trackbed being removable to be able to work on the underside electronics on a workbench instead of crawling under a rather low layout.

my other thought is to use 12mm foam board. I used to model in 5-6mm foam board when I did a transport and product design course at uni (before finishing in graphics) and know a solid result can be achieved. Track would have to be glued instead of pinned and point motors would require some plywood gluing to the underside to ensure screw holes for the motors didn't grow with time (using servos so not thumping across and back)

the removing the trackbed option may not be as possible with this but I'm sure I could make some locating dowels and simply have a friction fit.

any thoughts welcome
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: weave on August 12, 2017, 09:29:43 am
Hi Black Sheep,

Just checking in after posting on your other thread so I don't lose track (no pun).

Cheers weave  :beers:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Buffin on August 12, 2017, 09:56:24 am
Dawlish has one of the classic  sea  walls

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Dawlish_View.JPG
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: port perran on August 12, 2017, 10:02:32 am
Well...how about a model of Dawlish after the great storm of Feb 2014 with the rails dangling in the air ?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: weave on August 12, 2017, 10:39:19 am
Well...how about a model of Dawlish after the great storm of Feb 2014 with the rails dangling in the air ?


Would make a great diorama for anyone just interested in the scenic side!
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on August 12, 2017, 11:31:02 pm
Dawlish has one of the classic  sea  walls

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Dawlish_View.JPG

it does indeed, but, that's for someone else to model :)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on August 13, 2017, 09:23:37 am
Dawlish has one of the classic  sea  walls

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Dawlish_View.JPG

it does indeed, but, that's for someone else to model :)

Coward  :P :P
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on August 18, 2017, 01:44:43 pm

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/44/1230-171016225231.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=44669)


I'm thinking of changing the reverse loop so that the flat crossing occurs at the right hand exit with just a simple point on it's own in the cutting / tunnel to minimise the possible issues within an area that's hard to see / get to.

Wondered what people's thoughts were?

the track plan hasn't changed, just posted for reference.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on August 25, 2017, 04:56:11 pm
Hopefully over the next weekend or two get some way towards starting the raised track-bed, restricted on maximum height by the roofline, restricted on minimum height by point motors!

Just aquired another locomotive project to join the two Duchesses and the ex L&Y pug in the loco works
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/54/1230-250817165443.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=54497)
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on August 25, 2017, 09:10:18 pm
If that's what I think it is the nose looks a bit short :hmmm:
Out of interest, what chassis are you going to use please?
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on August 25, 2017, 10:11:20 pm
it's not arrived yet, the nose on the prototype is very short anyway, much shorter than a Deltic or a 37

I'm probably going to use a 37 chassis with the bogie sides as that appears to be what's recommended in the e-bay listing and should be able to get one DCC ready, the other suggestion is, I think, a class 40 which I presume requires modification of the bogies as it's a 1+Co-Co+1
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on August 25, 2017, 10:14:41 pm
Yeah - the class 37, being a Co-Co, would probably be easier/the better bet :hmmm:
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on August 27, 2017, 11:52:58 pm
Hopefully over the next weekend or two get some way towards starting the raised track-bed, restricted on maximum height by the roofline, restricted on minimum height by point motors!

Just aquired another locomotive project to join the two Duchesses and the ex L&Y pug in the loco works
([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/54/1230-250817165443.jpeg[/url]) ([url]http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=54497[/url])


We want more up[dates on the Duchesses
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on August 28, 2017, 09:06:00 am

The paint is not as smooth as I'd like, need to rub it back a little and put another coat on but been putting off doing it as no layout to run on so trying to get that resolved.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on September 27, 2017, 06:15:35 pm
Not much to report at the moment, less progress than I'd hoped.

Alongside work on the house that needs attention (damp, ripping plasterboard walls out, building a downstairs toilet and sorting my daughter's new bedroom out) I've got a much longer queue of projects all part of the railway that I keep dipping in and out of them and making little progress.

I've also scraped the bumper on my wife's new car so no spending for a little bit until that's paid for, it's small but more than I'm able to polish out, being metalic paint it's beyond my ability to confidently do a good job of patching it.

So, while awaiting spending approval again (and selling anything that's been in the bottom of a box for four years on ebay)
I'm hoping to actually write down my project list and work through it, hopefully bringing myself up-to date and more organised and focused.

Feel free to chime in and persuade / help me to prioritise some over others or anything you think I should photograph properly and write up for the journal.

In no particular order:

L&Y 3d printed pug - paint, add couplings, afix to chassis etc
Streamlined City of Coventry - wartime black - paint and number
Streamlined Princess Eliza - Crimson - paint, line and number
Ransome & Rapier breakdown crane (and train)
Scalescenes large station (midland)- under progress on desk at work
Faller post office (intended to be pub / station hotel)
Finish testing MERG components for DCC control
Control panel (work out what MERG components for signal and point control, purchase and build)
Trial and fit DG couplings
Smart Models terraced houses (B&B)
Smart Models pier building
Smart Models engine shed
Plan depot as this is actually missing from track plan
build raised trackbed
lay track
actually get a train moving under DCC power!
Sea wall
detail LNWR station building
detail and finish goods shed
persuade wife to finish cinema so I can build a back for it
finish Metcalfe timber framed shops
Finish Severn Brass vicarage kit
finish detailing church building

so, enough to keep me occupied without queueing up any more jobs!

I can usually have a cardboard kit going at work in my lunch breaks (currently station) but can't do anything involving solvents for obvious reasons.


10,000 is not listed above as I need to source a china era GF 37 chassis, ideally one that's DCC ready and I'm not allowed money at the moment! This will come in time.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on September 27, 2017, 06:39:09 pm
Your workbench is more crowded than mine, but I don't have any Pugs or Streamliners its not fair
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on September 27, 2017, 06:40:01 pm
Your workbench is more crowded than mine, but I don't have any Pugs or Streamliners its not fair

I've not included the slot cars that need repair / building either!
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: paulprice on September 27, 2017, 06:40:39 pm
Show off  :'(
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on September 28, 2017, 09:36:24 pm
So, first task underway,
5305 Black 5 'Leonard Freear' has moved under DCC power!

(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/56/1230-280917213344.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=56214)

next stage is to get the booster into the circuit :D
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: PLD on September 29, 2017, 07:33:48 am
5305 Black 5 'Leonard Freear'
:confused2:
https://www.5305la.org.uk/About/Locomotive/45305 (https://www.5305la.org.uk/About/Locomotive/45305)
                                                                        ???
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Newportnobby on September 29, 2017, 09:42:50 am
Leonard Freear? Who he please? ???
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on September 29, 2017, 01:22:59 pm
Sorry, should have said, you won't find his name in the locomotive register, it's highly likely you'll see the name crop up in and around Milliedale on Sea

Leonard Freear was my grandfather, he was a draftsman,  engineer and mechanic.

At least three generations of the men in my family have been engineers in some capacity, I'm a designer making me the black sheep of the family, and I like the beer.

I was ordering name plates for my streamlined duchess Princess Eliza (my daughter) and there was space on the order for another set.

I also have a 3F and 4F named as Donald and Douglas :D
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on October 02, 2017, 12:31:58 pm

Bit of organising the to-do list

Feel free to chime in and persuade / help me to prioritise some over others or anything you think I should photograph properly and write up for the journal.

In no particular order:

Electronics for motive power
actually get a train moving under DCC power!
Finish testing MERG components for DCC control
purchase and build cut out modules

Electronics for signaling (and points):
Control panel (work out what MERG components for signal and point control, purchase and build)

Motive power:
L&Y 3d printed pug - paint, add couplings, afix to chassis etc
Streamlined City of Coventry - wartime black - paint and number
Streamlined Princess Eliza - Crimson - paint, line and number
LMS 10,000 (class 37 chassis required)

Rolling stock:
Trial and fit DG couplings - magnet purchased, test track needs to be built, and couplings.
Ransome & Rapier breakdown crane (and train)
push pull set

Buildings:
Metcalfe LNWR signal box (why the woodwork is green I don't know)
Sea wall
Scalescenes large station (midland)- under progress on desk at work
Faller post office (intended to be pub / station hotel)
Smart Models terraced houses (B&B)
Smart Models pier building
Smart Models engine shed
detail LNWR station building
detail and finish goods shed
persuade wife to finish cinema so I can build a back for it -need to build back for it
finish Metcalfe timber framed shops - need to build backs
Finish Severn Brass vicarage kit
finish detailing church building
Metcalfe coaching inn

Structural work (baseboards and the like):
Plan depot as this is actually missing from track plan
build raised trackbed
lay track

so, enough to keep me occupied without queueing up any more jobs!

I can usually have a cardboard kit going at work in my lunch breaks (currently station) but can't do anything involving solvents for obvious reasons.

Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on November 08, 2017, 01:10:39 pm
Couple more things crossed off the above list (details in the other thread)

This thread is going to move much more slowly and possibly end once the first bit of track is laid (so after I've built the raised section) and kept more for reference of what is yet to be done towards having a working layout.
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on December 03, 2017, 10:44:18 pm
Test track built!


(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/58/1230-031217224209.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=58872)

Working and running, except the diverging line closest to the camera because the hole for the wires was not big enough to take both!

Able to plug both DC and DCC into it, built on a removable section to fit on an Ikea shelf, plenty of space for setting out and testing modules as I build them, fitted with a magnet for testing couplings (one built and tested, need to build a batch and see how they perform as the layout is reliant on hands free shunting!
Title: Re: LMS by the seaside - Milliedale - on - sea
Post by: Black Sheep on December 27, 2017, 07:12:02 pm
Didn't think I'd get much time for model building (can't get in the railway room) but a bit of progress
So, the updated list for December


Electronics for motive power
actually get a train moving under DCC power!
Finish testing MERG components for DCC control
purchase and build cut out modules

Electronics for signaling (and points):
Control panel (work out what MERG components for signal and point control, purchase and build)

Motive power:
L&Y 3d printed pug - paint, add couplings, afix to chassis etc 11808
Streamlined City of Coventry - wartime black - paint and number
Streamlined Princess Eliza - Crimson - paint, line and number
LMS 10,000 (class 37 chassis sourced)

Rolling stock:
Trial and fit DG couplings - magnet purchased, test track needs to be built, and couplings.
Ransome & Rapier breakdown crane (and train)
push pull set

Buildings:
Scalescenes large station (midland)
persuade wife to finish cinema so I can build a back for it -need to build back for it
finish Metcalfe timber framed shops - need to build backs

Metcalfe coaching inn
ratio coaling tower - what health and safety? painting
Metcalfe LNWR signal box (why the woodwork is green I don't know) built but awaiting interior kit
Sea wall
Faller post office (intended to be pub / station hotel) - under construction, need chimneys
Smart Models terraced houses (B&B)
Smart Models pier building
Smart Models engine shed
detail LNWR station building
detail and finish goods shed
Finish Severn Brass vicarage kit
finish detailing church building


Structural work (baseboards and the like):
Plan depot as this is actually missing from track plan
build raised trackbed
lay track

Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 05, 2018, 03:31:04 pm
bl@@dy DG couplings...
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin - help required
Post by: Black Sheep on March 16, 2018, 11:45:12 am
The baseboards built are Tim Horn laser cut and have good cross bracing, including some diagonal bracing (would recommend but you need to sort your own legs / trestles out) as I did not know my finished track plan at the time they are flat.

My intent was to build a raised trackbed that could simply be lifted off the board allowing for maintenance and access to the wiring and point motors (servos) with small holes for wiring harnesses to drop through and connect into the main system (will be running DCC and MERG CBUS so each area can connect with only a few wires.

I'm now thinking it might be better to work out and mark the area that the raised trackbed will go over and cut out lots of access holes around the bracing of the boards and make the viaduct sections permanent or semi permanent.

What do people think?

The layout is, effectively, on hold until I work this one (and remote uncoupling) out.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Newportnobby on March 16, 2018, 12:04:20 pm
I'd try to imagine the worst possible access scenario and then worsen it!
If something goes wrong in the fiddle yards on my layout I have to crawl under the boards and come up the other side. At 60+ years of age and with a bad back, I'm doing all I can to head off any problems so, for example, am bringing all the wiring to the front of the layout.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 16, 2018, 12:36:54 pm
I'd try to imagine the worst possible access scenario and then worsen it!
If something goes wrong in the fiddle yards on my layout I have to crawl under the boards and come up the other side. At 60+ years of age and with a bad back, I'm doing all I can to head off any problems so, for example, am bringing all the wiring to the front of the layout.

Coming up the other side is not an option, there's a wall and a loft ceiling in the way  :D
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: DaveGlew on March 23, 2018, 05:44:40 pm
Some folks on here have hinged their boards to give easier access. Seems like a solution which could work but I think baseboard joins would need to be well engineered as you could use fixed dowels.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 26, 2018, 10:39:12 am
appologies for lack of progress or updates, it would appear that the Yorkshire Embassy has been sabotaged and we've got no heating due to a leak.

Currently suspecting a covert operation by Newportnobby and PaulPrice  :bounce:

All my spare time has been devoted to resolving this.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Newportnobby on March 26, 2018, 10:46:07 am

Currently suspecting a covert operation by Newportnobby and PaulPrice  :bounce:


Denial as per the Putin manual will follow. Any expulsions of Lancastrian 'diplomats' from our embassy in Yorkshire will ensure retaliation >:D
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 27, 2018, 11:38:41 pm
Some tidying and sorting has occurred clearing the layout off, hopefully over the easter weekend I'll be able to get some bits of the raised section built.

Trying to work out a few things:

1) the layout is deep, 3ft to be precise and sits in the eves of the loft, best to lay track on the raised section then fit it into place or is this likely to cause other issues?

2) how do I replicate my anyrail plan onto the board while ensuring things end up where they should?

3) does copydex hold track in a curve or will pins be needed?

any other track laying advice welcome :D
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Newportnobby on March 28, 2018, 09:49:10 am
1. I think it's best to lay the track before pushing the board back into the eaves but bear in mind you may need to ballast/weather it first and fit any points motors (with required droppers) which could an issue if not done before placing the baseboard into position.

2. Sorry - can't help

3. The glue won't hold on it's own so I suggest glue it and place map pins between the sleepers you can pull out when the glue has dried.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 28, 2018, 09:53:03 am
Unfortunately to take it out of the eves either involves moving a fair bit of furniture or removing it from the loft and setting it up elsewhere, will have to apply for a work permit :D
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Newportnobby on March 28, 2018, 10:17:28 am
Sorry, I should have engaged brain before fingers :doh:
I meant you to add everything to the raised section before then fitting that to the baseboard which is already in the eaves.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 29, 2018, 10:36:00 am
provisional permission to use part of the dining room has been granted for track laying!

Thinking it might be best to turn the layout round in the loft and start building the raised section across the back (it's straight along the rear edge) and lay track along there and get it running end-to end and then turn it back round to work on the front.

once I get the leak to the central heating sorted (stop valves cutting off downstairs appears to have got us heating upstairs and hot water) and repaired the porch roof I should be able to do something on the layout :D
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: keithbythe sea on March 29, 2018, 08:23:55 pm
I donít want to get involved in any diplomatic incidents, especially from way down here....

First priorities sound to be heating and porch roof (no sign of spring or dry weather down here yet), this will also earn massive brownie points, but after that:

Loads of different methods for fixing track down. My limited (first layout ever) experience is to pin initially to get the right location and alignment. Once you ballast (loads more different methods again) everything is pretty rock solid. I use 1:1 water:pva to fix the ballast. Once ballasted you can either remove the pins or hide them with ballast. I think that the theory with fixing the track with something like copydex is that itís relatively easy to take the track up if needed. However, once you ballast that advantage seems to disappear. But I might well be wrong!

Hope this helps, and good luck with whatever method you use.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: port perran on March 29, 2018, 08:29:27 pm
Heating and porch roof are definite priorities.
 Rownie points by the score for sorting those two.
Then........crack on with the railway.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: jpendle on March 29, 2018, 11:43:50 pm
You could ask nicely for a large format printer, or find your local print shop and see if they would do a 1:1 print of your Anyrail plan at a reasonable price.

Then you lay the track on top of the plan and tear the plan away when you're done.

I've done this in my model of Wigan, laying track on top of a plan was a doddle compared to any other method. I didn't need a single track gauge to get my curves done, and I didn't need to worry about track centers on curves either.

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 30, 2018, 09:06:53 am
You could ask nicely for a large format printer, or find your local print shop and see if they would do a 1:1 print of your Anyrail plan at a reasonable price.

Kind of embarrassing I didn't think about doing this, I work at head office of Printing.com!
I think the cost would still come in at over £30 even with staff discount

I've bought some carbon paper to put under the bits of plan and trace through, then marker pen to make sure it doesn't rub off.
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: jpendle on March 30, 2018, 03:36:14 pm
So around 30 quid, compared to say the cost of 3 Tracksetta's. Gaugemaster have them at 7 pounds each. Of course if you already own the Tracksetta's or are not using Flex track, then 30 quid is 30 quid. But I would say that buying a print, versus buying Tracksetta's is a no brainer. Especially as you can have as many radii as you wish on your plan, plus transition curves if you want to get fancy.

I was lucky enough to get an HP large format printer as an early Christmas present, it has made track laying on my new layout really easy, and compared to the cost of getting prints done here in the US ($250 for each iteration of my initial plan!) it has paid for itself already!

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: Milliedale on sea - Technical Bulitin
Post by: Black Sheep on March 30, 2018, 07:23:34 pm
I've got two copies of the plan on A4 (88 sheets) already which is where the carbon paper comes in, can lay it out, taped together, with the carbon paper below it and trace.

the A4's got banged out on the office laser printer while no one was looking in payment for some overtime I'd clocked up :D