BUYING FROM OVERSEAS - the facts as experienced by members

Started by daffy, January 16, 2017, 05:01:26 PM

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daffy

A lot of members report that they buy from overseas, say from Germany, Japan or, if resident outside the U.K., from the U.K.

Looking through past posts, however, few mentions are found of the precise costs and processes involved, so hopefully this thread can provide insight into those elements, if Forum members can relate their own experiences.

Obviously costs can vary enormously from supplier to supplier, so it would help if individual retailers can be illustrated rather than just generalised facts about importing from such-and-such a  country. Also if prices are left unconverted from originating currencies, it would provide consistency and, er, currency in data.

N.B. - my idea is that this thread should NOT be about item prices, discounts, special offers etc, but about the practical costs, procedures and overall service that members encounter when buying from overseas. Similarly, this should not be the place to show what has been bought as there are already specific threads for that purpose.

==========================================

To illustrate what I think would be helpful: I have just bought from two retailers in Germany, and while totally happy with what goods and services I have received, the costs and processes are quite different:

Retailer - DM-Toys in Germany (Issum, near Duisburg) https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html] [url]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html[/url]. This is major n-gauge specialist, part of a larger group.
Free delivery over €300 but I bought less so a €10 p&p charge applies. Paid by MasterCard with no fees by my bank at a fair exchange rate (take care, these fees and rates can vary with card providers). Delivery is via DHL 'Premium' service in Germany, transferring to Parcel Force in U.K., both with tracking available to me online, with DHL having the superior system for this from despatch to final delivery, but they are well integrated.
The order was placed online, before 2:00pm (German time), despatched same day (Thursday), and reached the Parcel Force local depot in Lincoln by 02:00 Saturday, and there it sat until it was put out for delivery on Monday and received at 11:20am. Well packaged, and excellent service.


Retailer - Micahs Bahnhof in Germany (Berlin) http://www.michas-bahnhof.de/] [url]http://www.michas-bahnhof.de/[/url] This is a model rail retailer with two shop outlets in Berlin, with a small online presence. They just happened to have a discontinued, very hard to find loco I wanted.
Delivery charge was €15. They only accept online payment via PayPal or Bank Transfer, both of which apply fees. I had no PayPal account so my bank charged £9.50 for the transfer and the exchange rate applied was a little less than that applied by MasterCard, perhaps costing me an extra £2.00. The transfer was made after a 3:00pm deadline applied by my bank, and on a Saturday too, so it took over 48 hours for the money to reach the shops account on Tuesday, when delivery was instigated.  I had at the end of things paid in total what the shop had originally asked for the item, before I negotiated a discount.
Delivery was via GLS in Germany, transferring to ParcelForce in U.K. No tracking email was received due to a minor error by the shop but my parcel arrived early on Thursday. A very well packaged item.
Except for the tracking issue the shop showed an excellent service.

Lesson : don't pay by Bank Transfer if at all avoidable. I now have a PayPal account, but note that this will attract a 0.4% fee if payment is from a PayPal balance or connected bank account, or 3.8% + a fixed fee (I have no idea what this would be) if PayPal payment is fully or partially funded by Debit or Credit Card.

So, two retailers, two different experiences, but I was very happy with both purchases.

What overseas buying experiences, costs, and service can others illustrate?
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

Yet_Another

Just to clarify the Paypal fees bit: only the seller has to pay the fees, but it is common in Germany for the seller to pass on those fees to the buyer.  I believe that in this country (UK), this is against the Paypal terms of service, but I suspect the terms are different in Germany.
Tony

'...things are not done by those who sit down to count the cost of every thought and act.' - Sir Daniel Gooch of IKB

daffy

Thanks for that amendment Tony @Yet_Another , and as you say it can be charged at either end of the transaction, but not both. Not having used PayPal I was unsure of the full procedure.

Full PayPal cross-border Fees table for U.K. Buyers from overseas suppliers is here:

https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/cross-border-and-conversion-fees#currencyconversion
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

ntpntpntp

I'm not a fan of using bank transfer - it's just too expensive.  I was caught out a few years ago paying more in transfer fees than the item I was buying (a magazine subscription from Germany).   

Nowadays I use PayPal if offered (or credit card otherwise), and to be honest I've not noticed the application of PP fees when buying directly from German retailers - the PP fee thing seems to be more prevalent on eBay.

I'll certainly second DM-Toys, I've used them and also bought from their stand at the Stuttgart N convention.

For small purchases of artisan detail items (brass etches etc.) I find having a friend in Germany helps a lot!!
Nick.   2021 celebrating the 25th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Railwaygun

Japanese suppliers , such as Modeltrainshop.net have good prices and have been helpful and prompt for me.

Paypal is accepted.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34824.msg405461#msg405461

His Facebook page has 90 pics of the 2106 All JApan model show

http://tinyurl.com/znkexsk
Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
Ecclesiastes 2:11

This has been a public service announcement
It may contain alternative facts

Caveat lector

The largest Railwaygun, Armoured Train & Military Rail group in the world!

https://groups.io/g/railwaygun/topics

NGF Military threads

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=146.0

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Motto: Semper ubi, sub ubi

Nick

It's worth pointing out that both the examples given by daffy are purchases from Germany, i.e. from within the EU. As such they enter the UK without any customs formalities. (For the time being...  :worried:)

Purchases from outside the EU have to pass customs checks. This may or may not cause both VAT and duty to be added to the purchase, and there will likely be a handling charge from the carrier for collecting the amounts.

I personally try to avoid purchasing items from outside the EU that will be sent via the postal service. (E.g. via USPS in the States). When these enter the UK they end up in a warehouse (in, I believe, Coventry) where they clear customs before being put in the normal Royal Mail delivery system. The clearance delay can be significant (i.e. weeks) and is unpredictable. This brings a further problem with Royal Mail into play. They notify you that you have to pay duty, VAT and their fee, but give you only about 21 days to pay. After that time, they return the item to sender. So, on your own head be it if you order something when you've a trip coming up that may render you unable to pay promptly.

I prefer to use a carrier such as UPS or Fedex, because they have in-house arrangements for clearance, which are enormously faster. But they can be considerably more expensive.

One route that I have only recently discovered to purchase from the US is to use Amazon.com. They have an arrangement whereby they quote up front for customs charges so you know what you're paying, and the items come through Amazon systems and arrive in a matter of days. (Actually my items have arrived via UPS, but at (exceedingly cheap) Amazon rates.) Not all Amazon.com items are available to be shipped that way but if it's available, my experience has been good. I haven't yet bought any model railway items this way, but see no reason it would work differently.

I hope this is useful.
Nick

The perfect is the enemy of the good - Voltaire

daffy

Quote from: Railwaygun on January 16, 2017, 06:54:27 PM
Japanese suppliers , such as Modeltrainshop.net have good prices and have been helpful and prompt for me.

Paypal is accepted.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34824.msg405461#msg405461

His Facebook page has 90 pics of the 2106 All JApan model show

http://tinyurl.com/znkexsk

Do you have any specific examples of costs RG, such as p&p charges, import duty (I believe there is a threshold for these), and any unexpected costs, such as those noted by @Nick from our friends at Royal Mail?
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

Nick

My understanding is that, on commercial transactions, customs duty is payable on non-EU shipments with a value >£135. VAT is payable on shipments >£15. Customs duty rates vary by item - you have to check the tariff code . Without checking, I'm 95% sure that the VAT & duty are payable on the value including the shipping cost.

Royal Mail I believe charge a minimum of £8, and I think that is charged for the clearance, irrespective of whether there is anything actually payable. But I'm not entirely sure about that.
Nick

The perfect is the enemy of the good - Voltaire

Newportnobby

I have only ever bought from abroad twice - once from Japan and once from the USA. Both were relatively low cost transactions but on each occasion I copped for a £10 customs charge and an £8 'handling fee' from the Royal Mail.
I won't give them the chance again :no:

daffy

Inspired  :hmmm: by Nick's comments about duties I decided to look for .gov.co.uk pages on this and after a lot of heavy reading - I got the wrong pages at first, I found this that gives the main points re VAT and Customs Duty:

https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad/tax-and-duty

Having read this and doing some calculations on goods over £40 from Japan and the USA, I will join NPN in avoiding buying from outside Europe for now.

Mind you, I have a lot of cousins in the States, so I could give them a call......
:hmmm:

But maybe some specific examples from those who have successfully bought from far off climes might sway that view.
Mike

Sufferin' succotash!

Mr Sprue

I've purchased a couple of locos from Australia via ebay and to be honest they arrived faster than a lot of transactions I have had here in the UK!  ???  The postage wasn't that terrible either.

However when ever I have bought anything from Germany for some reason they seem to have the most expensive P&P, which I find puzzling considering they are in the EU! :scowl:

Railwaygun

Quote from: daffy on January 16, 2017, 07:29:20 PM
Quote from: Railwaygun on January 16, 2017, 06:54:27 PM
Japanese suppliers , such as Modeltrainshop.net have good prices and have been helpful and prompt for me.

Paypal is accepted.

http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=34824.msg405461#msg405461

His Facebook page has 90 pics of the 2106 All JApan model show

http://tinyurl.com/znkexsk

Do you have any specific examples of costs RG, such as p&p charges, import duty (I believe there is a threshold for these), and any unexpected costs, such as those noted by @Nick from our friends at Royal Mail?


my items ( coach light bars) were below £18 so no duty.

in my experience, small items by post usually get through HMRC without problems, regardless of value.
Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done and what I had toiled to achieve, everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
Ecclesiastes 2:11

This has been a public service announcement
It may contain alternative facts

Caveat lector

The largest Railwaygun, Armoured Train & Military Rail group in the world!

https://groups.io/g/railwaygun/topics

NGF Military threads

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?board=146.0

My Military Rail Pinterest area
https://uk.pinterest.com/NDRobotnik/

10mm / N armour Threads
https://www.10mm-wargaming.com/

Motto: Semper ubi, sub ubi

railsquid

#12
Quote from: daffy on January 16, 2017, 05:01:26 PM
Retailer - DM-Toys in Germany (Issum, near Duisburg) [url=https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html] [url=https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html] [url]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html] [url]https://www.en.dm-toys.de/index.html[/url]. This is major n-gauge specialist, part of a larger group.
Free delivery over €300 but I bought less so a €10 p&p charge applies. Paid by MasterCard with no fees by my bank at a fair exchange rate (take care, these fees and rates can vary with card providers). Delivery is via DHL 'Premium' service in Germany, transferring to Parcel Force in U.K., both with tracking available to me online, with DHL having the superior system for this from despatch to final delivery, but they are well integrated.
The order was placed online, before 2:00pm (German time), despatched same day (Thursday), and reached the Parcel Force local depot in Lincoln by 02:00 Saturday, and there it sat until it was put out for delivery on Monday and received at 11:20am. Well packaged, and excellent service.

Ordered from them several times, no problems with delivery to Japan. However they won't deduct VAT (Mehrwertsteuer) for orders outside the EU.

Quote from: daffy on January 16, 2017, 05:01:26 PM
Lesson : don't pay by Bank Transfer if at all avoidable. I now have a PayPal account, but note that this will attract a 0.4% fee if payment is from a PayPal balance or connected bank account, or 3.8% + a fixed fee (I have no idea what this would be) if PayPal payment is fully or partially funded by Debit or Credit Card.
Bank transfer is a common payment method within Germany (typically you can give the retailer permission to withdraw the funds from your account), while credit card payments are much less poplar, especially with smaller retailers (I lived Germany for 15 years, and only ever had the one credit card which I used mainly for overseas transactions). Inter-country bank transfer (except possibly between countries in the Eurozone with sane banking systems) is generally expensive and not worth the expense/hassle in my experience.

Ordering from the UK, I've found Hattons consistently the best source; they are well set-up for international orders and deduct VAT at checkout. Apart from a brief period last summer when they were moving their warehouse operations, orders have been dispatched within 12~36 hours of ordering, and they will ship via standard airmail which has always been reliable here to Japan (though the lack of tracking number means a couple of anticipation-laden days around the time I estimate it will arrive). Their parcels are also excellent at not attracting the attention of the local excise, probably because they don't stick an official-looking invoice in a plastic envelope on the outside which shouts "tax me!". (Being Japan, when that does happen you can pay the customs fee directly postie, no trailing down to inconveniently located depots or whatever).

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