1960s working practise

[port perran]

A couple of questions re working practices in the early 60s.
On Trepol Bay I work very short goods trains(1, 2 or 3 wagons) between the station area and the port. Wagons move up from the port (usually in ones and twos) to be added to goods trains. The distance is approx quarter of a mile. Would such movements have required a brake van or would they be regarded as shunting trips and not require a brake?
Similarly, I run 2 or 3 coach passenger trains between Trepol Bay and Port Perran. Obviously I can have a Brake carriage at the end in one direction but not the other (there being no turning facilities at either end). Hence, the brake on the return trip would be at the front of the train. Is this perfectly good operationally?
I'm sure someone will have the answer to this??

[Newportnobby]

As far as the coaching stock goes I operate either a loco + Autocoach, a loco + B set or a loco + brake + open + brake. This allows a 1, 2 or 3 coach formation which does not require turning as a turntable will take up far too much space.
I'll be interested to hear what our experts say, too

[PLD]

On Trepol Bay I work very short goods trains(1, 2 or 3 wagons) between the station area and the port. Wagons move up from the port (usually in ones and twos) to be added to goods trains. The distance is approx quarter of a mile. Would such movements have required a brake van or would they be regarded as shunting trips and not require a brake?

That may be subject to 'local arrangements' which may allow for movement without a brake maybe for all trains or maybe for specified trains only. Factors taken into consideration could include whether the line is freight only or shared with passenger services; the geography of the line e.g. whether there are any significant gradients, severe curves, level crossings; what cargo is being carried; are the wagons fitted with an automatic braking system...

I run 2 or 3 coach passenger trains between Trepol Bay and Port Perran. Obviously I can have a Brake carriage at the end in one direction but not the other (there being no turning facilities at either end). Hence, the brake on the return trip would be at the front of the train. Is this perfectly good operationally?

Despite many modellers thinking otherwise, since continuous brakes became mandatory for passenger trains in the late 1800s there never has been on any British railway any rule demanding that the last vehicle in the train is a brake coach. In most cases the rules allowed 2 or 3 vehicles after the last brake vehicle, so one brake in a 4 coach rake is perfectly adequate. Nor does the brake coach (if it is the end vehicle) have to be oriented with the brake compartment outwards though admittedly, that was the preferred formation on many lines, usually for convenience of access or sighting reasons...

[port perran]

On Trepol Bay I work very short goods trains(1, 2 or 3 wagons) between the station area and the port. Wagons move up from the port (usually in ones and twos) to be added to goods trains. The distance is approx quarter of a mile. Would such movements have required a brake van or would they be regarded as shunting trips and not require a brake?

That may be subject to 'local arrangements' which may allow for movement without a brake maybe for all trains or maybe for specified trains only. Factors taken into consideration could include whether the line is freight only or shared with passenger services; the geography of the line e.g. whether there are any significant gradients, severe curves, level crossings; what cargo is being carried; are the wagons fitted with an automatic braking system...

I run 2 or 3 coach passenger trains between Trepol Bay and Port Perran. Obviously I can have a Brake carriage at the end in one direction but not the other (there being no turning facilities at either end). Hence, the brake on the return trip would be at the front of the train. Is this perfectly good operationally?

Despite many modellers thinking otherwise, since continuous brakes became mandatory for passenger trains in the late 1800s there never has been on any British railway any rule demanding that the last vehicle in the train is a brake coach. In most cases the rules allowed 2 or 3 vehicles after the last brake vehicle, so one brake in a 4 coach rake is perfectly adequate. Nor does the brake coach (if it is the end vehicle) have to be oriented with the brake compartment outwards though admittedly, that was the preferred formation on many lines, usually for convenience of access or sighting reasons...

That is all most helpful - Thank You.

[dodger]

Despite many modellers thinking otherwise, since continuous brakes became mandatory for passenger trains in the late 1800s there never has been on any British railway any rule demanding that the last vehicle in the train is a brake coach. In most cases the rules allowed 2 or 3 vehicles after the last brake vehicle, so one brake in a 4 coach rake is perfectly adequate. Nor does the brake coach (if it is the end vehicle) have to be oriented with the brake compartment outwards though admittedly, that was the preferred formation on many lines, usually for convenience of access or sighting reasons...

Until the 1960's it was a Department of Transport requirement that the last coach of a passenger train had a guards/luggage section at the outer end.

This was to ensure that in the event of a rear end collision the passenger section would have some degree of protection. In most cases a blind eye was turned for branch or local services in rural areas. This is why GWR B sets and  SR 2P and 4car EMU  sets used two brake coaches but the SR 2W sets did not. It was generally accepted that strengthening coaches could be the last vehicle, but for regular use DoT approval was required, e.g. some Oxted line peak hour services that stopped at short platforms.

This requirement was only removed when low strength, often wood, coaches were withdrawn in the late 50's/ early 60's.

Dodger

[Chris Morris]

I found this
"From about 1850 to the mid 1970's every train (passenger or goods) moving on a `running line' (that is any line not in a yard or on private property) had to have a guard's brake van attached at the rear."
Sounds about right to me. I guess you could decide the line to the dock is either privately owned or classed as a yard. If there is a gradient then a brake van might be seen as essential.

[Jerry Howlett]

Got me thinking and just had a quick look at my old Somerset & Dorset book.
There are a few pictures of 2 coach trains on local services with the brake positioned, passenger accommodation against the loco so as the guards compartment is effectively in the middle of the train. Loco + Pass/Brake + passenger coach.

Hope that makes sense..

Jerry

[dodger]

Got me thinking and just had a quick look at my old Somerset & Dorset book.
There are a few pictures of 2 coach trains on local services with the brake positioned, passenger accommodation against the loco so as the guards compartment is effectively in the middle of the train. Loco + Pass/Brake + passenger coach.

Hope that makes sense..

Jerry

It makes perfect sense. Many short local trains ran like that. About 1962, during the great cull The Southern ran short of restriction 1 4 coach sets for the Tonbridge area local and Reading - Redhill trains they split all the sets into 2 coach, BSK-CK, sets to provide sufficient sets to keep the service running. It was not unusual to see a 4 coach train formed CK-BSK-BSK-CK when enough sets were available.

At this time the rules were often flouted. Up to the time in the mid 60's when the rules were relaxed only express passenger trains conformed correctly. At this time even the Southern started building EMU's with only one luggage van.

Dodger

[keithfre]

Until the 1960's it was a Department of Transport requirement that the last coach of a passenger train had a guards/luggage section at the outer end.

That would have been impossible on a train such as the Atlantic Coast Express that was made up of slip coaches, unless every coach was a brake end, and surely that wasn't the case?

[Jerry Howlett]

Until the 1960's it was a Department of Transport requirement that the last coach of a passenger train had a guards/luggage section at the outer end.

That would have been impossible on a train such as the Atlantic Coast Express that was made up of slip coaches, unless every coach was a brake end, and surely that wasn't the case?

Take cover, I think you have mis-interpreted the "slip" on the ACE.

[Newportnobby]

To the best of my knowledge there were no slip coaches on the A.C.E., the only slip being between the Bulleid driving wheels and the track - but I stand to be corrected.

[dodger]

Until the 1960's it was a Department of Transport requirement that the last coach of a passenger train had a guards/luggage section at the outer end.

That would have been impossible on a train such as the Atlantic Coast Express that was made up of slip coaches, unless every coach was a brake end, and surely that wasn't the case?

The ACE used 5 or 6 BCK's in its formation not slip coaches. The train stopped to detach the various portions.

All slip coaches had a guards compartment so that the guard on the slip portion could operate the slip coupling and stop the train in the correct position.

Dodger

[Jerry Howlett]

To the best of my knowledge there were no slip coaches on the A.C.E., the only slip being between the Bulleid driving wheels and the track - but I stand to be corrected.