Buying secondhand locos

[daffy]

What should I look out for when buying secondhand or 'previously owned' locos?

I am mainly thinking about those advertised by the likes of Hattons and Rails of Sheffield, amongst others.

I can appreciate that old items will be suffering the ravages of time, use and/or abuse, but many items - I'm looking at a few at the moment from Rails for instance - are being described as 'Excellent condition' and 'like new'. This I am finding hard to reconcile with the fact that a high proportion of these are old models, with original, and often limited, release dates as far back as 1999 or the early 2000's.

Okay, they may have been well-loved, and treated as I would treat my own stock, but what of the general effects of time? Surely just siting in a box or on a shelf somewhere (who knows what atmospheric conditions applied) must have detrimental effects?

I would appreciate any and all comments about the perils and pitfalls of buying such locos, no matter what the asking price, which to me is just an invitation to haggle.

[Drakken]

I would still be very careful with buying second hand locomotives, It literally a gamble I would say to be honest. I've had absolute gems and absolute lemon's. I recently bought a Class 50 from Hatton's with has 'Like New' arrived with warn worm gear, Packed with ridiculous amount's of grease which made it as quiet as it was and bent bogie.

Although I have found a couple of what I would call very well maintained loco's in the past. I would only purchase second hand is the price was at most 2/3rd's the new price as I'd rather just have a new one and wait a little longer if it's an expensive model.

Seems to be a few 'auction' listings these days with Youtube video's embedded to view the loco running which would help a lot in a decision in purchasing it. I'd basically study the photo's hard for tell tail signs of not abuse but not well looked after

Maybe a second hand buyer's guide sticky?

[austinbob]

I've bought a number of second hand locos from Rails of Sheffield ebay shop and have been very pleased with them. They have mostly needed a good clean and oiling and I run them in as if they were new.
Rails offer a limited warranty on these items (I think its 60 or 90 days.
You have to keep an eye on the prices as many second hand locos are advertised at higher than new.
If your prepared to take a punt then bidding on ebay can land you a nice loco at a good price. Ozymandias frequently sells his refurbished locos on ebay and many are excellent value.

[Snowwolflair]

Three rules of buying second hand locos beyond the asthetic.

1)  check wheel wear, if the plating is gone say no
2)  check that spares for the loco are available - I always assume something will need replaced
3)  assume you will need to rebuild it - just to get the dirt and excess oil out and usually replace the motor brushes.

[longbow]

N Gauge locos have a high return rate. If the second-hand price is more than 80% of new - and often it is - then in my view it's not worth sacrificing the maker's warranty. Doubly so if you are buying online. If you can deal with crocks then you have a better chance of a bargain.

[Snowwolflair]

I agree, and what I regard as second hand is +5 years old. 

Anything still in production will always come around as a Sale item saving the need to buy second hand.

Supplementary rule "Take your time and never be in a hurry"

[railsquid]

What should I look out for when buying secondhand or 'previously owned' locos?

I am mainly thinking about those advertised by the likes of Hattons and Rails of Sheffield, amongst others.

I can appreciate that old items will be suffering the ravages of time, use and/or abuse, but many items - I'm looking at a few at the moment from Rails for instance - are being described as 'Excellent condition' and 'like new'. This I am finding hard to reconcile with the fact that a high proportion of these are old models, with original, and often limited, release dates as far back as 1999 or the early 2000's.

Okay, they may have been well-loved, and treated as I would treat my own stock, but what of the general effects of time? Surely just siting in a box or on a shelf somewhere (who knows what atmospheric conditions applied) must have detrimental effects?

A while back I acquired a Japanese locomotive from a shop here in Tokyo from a small pile which had evidently been sitting in storage for decades, as they were produced in the 1970s and the packages were uniformly in pristine condition. The only issue was with the metal roof part, which has suffered slight distortion, but that was a design flaw of the model anyway. Otherwise it ran fine (as can be expected for that  somewhat primitive) model of loco. It only cost about a fiver too Another more recent acquisition is a very nicely made locomotive made around 1979, I have no idea what its history is but both it and the packaging were in pristine condition and it too is fine.

From those and experience with other 2nd hand purchases, I'd say just sitting in reasonably stable storage (stable temperature, no exposure to light or damp etc.) with only a very little careful use at most, the mere passage of time is not likely to cause much in the way of ravaging.

I would appreciate any and all comments about the perils and pitfalls of buying such locos, no matter what the asking price, which to me is just an invitation to haggle.

Things I look for:
- state of the packaging - poor condition might be a sign of frequent use, poor storage etc.; no original box (in the case of locomotives at least) is a red light
- all buffers there?
- all couplings there, and are they the ones I want?
- general visual condition

I did recently acquired a Poole-era Farish tank unboxed which doesn't really run, but I was kind of expecting that and there's a particular reason for that particular loco.

[Ditape]

There is no way to guarentee a second hand buy from personal experience I have had a great many good S/H buys but also 1 or 2 duffers so you pays your money and takes your chances.

[StormyOutlook]

I got back in to N Gauge after discovering eBay, 80% of my locos are pre-loved (100+) and I very much enjoy turning something described as spares-or-repair into something healthier.  I'm not a bargain hunter per-se, but 2nd hand is frequently the only way I'm able to obtain locos I want.  I may be unusual but I'm the sort of person that wouldn't send a 2nd hand loco back, so I'm not put off by "no returns", I tend to look at secondhand items as buyer-beware, I tend to assume that I'm going to have to service it myself and I'm genuinely disappointed when a second hand item needs no attention at all.

A few things I'd add to the list are:

1.  If it's broken, can fix it yourself (with help from the nice folk here) or will you have to send it off for repair elsewhere?
2.  If spares are available, how much are they?  Is it worth repairing?
3.  Is the box and it's condition important to you?

[Snowwolflair]

I don't care about the box.  I find you are more likely to break fiddly bits off a model getting it out of a manufacturers box than at any other time. 

Don't be fooled by box condition. Any model I sell would have a pristine box as I take the model out of the box, put the model in my storage boxes and safely store the box.  In effect the loco could have ten years of use and the box will look like it was made yesterday.

[NeMo]

N Gauge locos have a high return rate. If the second-hand price is more than 80% of new - and often it is - then in my view it's not worth sacrificing the maker's warranty. Doubly so if you are buying online. If you can deal with crocks then you have a better chance of a bargain.

The "high return rate" is a bit debatable, but I'll let that pass for now... What I think is important to say is that a 12-month-old loco that runs well is almost certainly not a lemon. It'll be one of the good ones! Secondhand in this instance is a way to get a loco that has been properly run-in and proven to work properly.

Almost all of my problems with locos have been either (a) I've done something stupid or (b) it's failed almost immediately after purchase.  Can't do much about (a) beyond send the loco off for repair; but (b) is about avoiding getting the lemons.

I happily buy secondhand from reputable dealers. I know if it works properly on arrival it's probably a good model, and the risk of it failing thereafter is pretty low. If it fails immediately, or has some serious flaw I can't fix, then reputable dealers will cover that with their warranty.

Cheers, NeMo

[Newportnobby]

As one who would likely cause more damage if I tried to fix a loco I don't buy 2nd hand except if I see a 'bargain' at a model railway show as there's generally a layout nearby who will test run it for me. I certainly wouldn't buy off Fleabay and can only say 'Caveat Emptor' (that's not a spell from Harry Potter, by the way). However, those who can fix things can and do get bargains from that source.

[railsquid]

N Gauge locos have a high return rate. If the second-hand price is more than 80% of new - and often it is - then in my view it's not worth sacrificing the maker's warranty. Doubly so if you are buying online. If you can deal with crocks then you have a better chance of a bargain.

The "high return rate" is a bit debatable, but I'll let that pass for now... What I think is important to say is that a 12-month-old loco that runs well is almost certainly not a lemon. It'll be one of the good ones! Secondhand in this instance is a way to get a loco that has been properly run-in and proven to work properly.

Yup, that's the way I see it too - when I started out I assumed new models would be better, but (personal) experience has shown I'm more likely to end up with a new dud which needs sending back under warranty (or working on it myself) than second hand. So far. In my case this is an issue as returning stuff is much more hassle from this end of the world.

Regarding boxes, the condition isn't important to me - I have a few which are more than a bit tatty, but it's a factor I take into account when evaluating something.

[daffy]

Thanks to all for the detailed responses.

I suppose I should describe my self as somewhat lacking in the skills of the micro-engineer, so though I can handle a lot of small repairs and fixes, diagnosing faults would have me posting on here for advices, which I know would be forthcoming.

The locos I have been looking at today, Re 460's of the SBB (Swiss Federal Railways) , and many of these - I believe there have been 118 in total- have been dressed in many different liveries and adverts. The Swiss term them Werbeloks. The models produced, mainly by Marklin (under their MiniTrix brand), Kato/Lemke/Hobbytrain, Fleischmann, and a few others . This webpage gives an idea of the variety produced in various scales:http://www.roundhouse.ch/Re_460/SBB_Re-460-Werbeloks.htm?forumid=487660

The key point (hooray! He's finally got there!    ) is that they are short-term issues, in limited numbers. My modelling desire was to recreate memories of the early 2000's on SBB lines, so inevitably the locos i would like are around 10 to 15 years old.

From the comments given, and being somewhat risk-averse (especially when some of these 'used' locos are at crazily high prices) it is perhaps best that i look for new models with later liveries. Ah well, perhaps it's a good enough reason to set off for the mountains again and make some new memories, health permitting.

[silly moo]

When buying from swapmeets I like to see n gauge locos in boxes because (hopefully) they have been treated with care and stored in their box when not on the layout.

Anything that has been chucked into one big box with track, rolling stock etc, probably hasn't been looked after. If it's mucky and dusty that puts me off too.

If buying from Rails or one of the other retailers, I would ask them to test run the loco before posting it but I expect they test them before listing them anyway.