Wot no shunting?!

[longbow]

I agree. The obvious drawbacks of shunting in N versus larger gauges are wide frog gaps, the lack of sound or stay-alives in most shunting locos, plus the small and light rolling stock. One can argue the toss over how coupling efficiency compares between the gauges although at least in O you have the option of manual shunting with 3-link couplings.

There are several 2MMFS shunting layouts that seem to work well thanks to finer tolerances and more sophisticated couplings (take a look on YouTube at Ley Hill and Mayfield St in operation), so that option - or O Gauge - would be my choice for a shunting plank.

[Chris Morris]

An exhibition is 7 hours continuous operating a layout. This is after setting up or checking everything over. My Ridgacre branch requires all trains to be driven and shunted at the terminus. Its a great little layout to operate for an hour or so at home but it is very hard work to run all day at an exhibition. A roundy roundy is so much easier to run at an exhibition. Using very simple technology it works ok though. This video is from three clips. All are as they were filmed and were the first shot, no second attempts were needed. The layout hasn't been run much over the summer and the track had not been recently cleaned.

[Chris Morris]

For me a roundy roundy should not merely be the same train going round and round (although sometimes I do this). When running my roundy roundy as it should be  - that is each train goes round just once at a time the punters get to see 11 different trains in a short time. I reckon when running this layout like this there are between 400 and 500 point changes an hour which means 2,000 to 3,000 point changes in a day at a show. This is a calculation, somehow I've never got round to actually counting them.

[port perran]

I installed some 22 point motors on my first Port Perran layout and built a console to operate it with.
I hate electrics so didn't enjoy the build experience, indeed finding it very frustrating and tedious.
It worked and worked well but after about a week of using the console I was completely bored with it and reverted to manual point changes.
At exhibitions I operate my current Trepol Bay layout from the side. That way I can reach the fiddle yard (to operate points manually) and talk to viewers (something that I feel is essential if you are exhibiting). Trepol  Bay has a largish fiddle yard which allows me to have 12 trains set up. Generally I let each one run round 3 times then switch in a new one.
Personally, I find shunting at home or at exhibitions extremely boring, preferring to see trains run around the layout but I can see that some people like shunting operations. Each to his own and if you enjoy shunting I feel that electric points and auto uncoupling are a must.
One added thought, at the last exhibition I attended (this time with Tregonning), the layout opposite me was a simple shunting puzzle with a class 08 and four wagons. It did prove very popular with the public who were able to " have a go".

[njee20]

For me a roundy roundy should not merely be the same train going round and round (although sometimes I do this). When running my roundy roundy as it should be  - that is each train goes round just once at a time the punters get to see 11 different trains in a short time.

Totally agree with that - running one train round repeatedly, even when there are multiple lines, if there's a fiddle yard full of stock is really irritating!

[martyn]

On James St we have three main areas of shunting: the dockyard (if Steve is not talking with spectators!) the James St  terminus, where passenger and parcels trains arrive: th train loco is released: probably the incoming train is shunted to the carriage sidings, or  another platform: then the released loco runs to shed for turning ; a freash train is drawn from the sidings, and a loco summoned from the shed to haul it. We also have an extensive goods yard at the lower level where again the incoming loco is realised, and the train broken down into the various sidings: and new trains made up from the sidings and a loco obtained from the shed. This does require some cooperation amongst the operators as some track work Is shared by the various actions.
We use B+B couplings, and are not 100% reliable, but we are working towards this, and I think we get a better success rate at every show. Part of the problem is the fine tolerances for N gauge, and transit to and from exhibitions can affect the set up of the couplings. But again, we are working towards every greater reliability...
Hopefully, you may judge for yourselves at Farnham in October, and, amongst others, TINGS next year.

Martyn

[ntpntpntp]

For me a roundy roundy should not merely be the same train going round and round (although sometimes I do this). When running my roundy roundy as it should be  - that is each train goes round just once at a time the punters get to see 11 different trains in a short time.

Totally agree with that - running one train round repeatedly, even when there are multiple lines, if there's a fiddle yard full of stock is really irritating!

Yep, also agree. I can usually manage around 24 different trains by splitting each yard line in half, and this naturally means each train goes round once.  Maybe one line in each direction will store a full length long train which can be allowed to trundle round and round for a few circuits if necessary (quick comfort break, and at the very end when it's time to pack the stock).  Kids love to see a long ICE set belt round a couple of times!

[NinOz]

One thing that has to be said is that N isn't terribly good for shunting plank layouts. It lacks the reliability at low speed.

Disagree.
I have a working rotary dumper N-Trak module which I used to take to exhibitions. 8' x 2'.  3 or 4 locos, 36 hoppers.
It was used intensively by up to three operators, one delivering fully coal hoppers and hauling away empties (to be refilled around the back - 18 hoppers at a time).  Another packaged empties from the dumper sidings for the mainline loco and then packaged the full hoppers into groups of 3.  The third operator would pull a 3 pack of hoppers and feed them up a steep slope to the rotary dumper  to be emptied one at a time, then repeat and repeat.
The guys would keep this up non-stop for upto 3 hours at a time before they needed a rest.
All done at realistic speeds; needed to crawl to position hoppers accurately, very little hands on using Micro-trains couplers and magnets.  Most hands-on due to operators not able to judge distances, direction and movement.  Momentum is a real killer until you get used to it.
PECO track, a mix or 55 and 80 flex track.  Digitrax DCC.  13 points electric + 3 manual - PECO solenoids, the great blade wreckers; now Tortii equipped.

[Newportnobby]

@Chris Morris
Having watched your video, Chris, is there anything you do to the couplings on your trucks as many is the time I try to couple a loco up to coaches/trucks and they just end up bounding off down the line rather than couple?

[Southerngooner]

To add to Martyn's post about shunting on James Street I would agree that reliability with the B&B coupling is not 100%, but when you consider a typical day at a show involves probably 200 or so uncoupling moves I would say our success rate is very good. I don't think this would be possible using Rapido or other proprietary couplers, but should be possible with DGs too. Without going into too much detail (there are lots of coupler-related threads on the forum) you have to decide to uncouple or not, and then work accordingly to make it work.

I totally agree with the comments regarding layouts where no uncoupling takes place, but have these layouts been developed to actively avoid the need to uncouple while still making it appear possible, or have they tried and failed?

As Martyn said, if anyone is interested about how this is done on James Street just come and see us at a show, where I'm sure we would be able to find time to show how we do it. There is nothing unusual about what we use (apart from the B&Bs), just proprietary stuff used well. One final plug for B&Bs is the greatly improved look of a loco fitted with them, no great chunk of plastic sticking out!

Dave

[tunneroner61]

Handsfree shunting is perfectly achievable in N and has been for many years. Back in the 1990s I was a member of Macclesfield club. We had a N gauge layout called Marfield on the exhibition circuit. We ran round branch trains, removed vans, milk tanks etc from the rear of through trains, shunted the goods yard etc. All using Poole era locos, and a mix of DGs and Elsie couplings.

There are many N gauge or 2mmFS shunting layouts around that run perfectly so I would refute the earlier claims that it is not achievable. Whether operators and visitors prefer watching trains go by or shunting is a different debate.

Norman

[NeMo]

One thing that has to be said is that N isn't terribly good for shunting plank layouts. It lacks the reliability at low speed.

Disagree.

Good oh! Debate is always worthwhile.

Perhaps what I really mean is not that N-gauge shunting planks can't be done, they obviously can. But rather than that getting short-wheelbase locos to run at scale speeds, time after time, across points and crossings requires a lot more planning and craftsmanship than doing the same in larger scales.

The bigger scales provide space for locos that have more momentum in the motor or flywheel that keeps the loco moving even when the circuit is broken for an instant; a longer wheelbase that can better span gaps, kinks, and insulated frogs; more weight to push away dust or grease at the rail that might break the circuit; and quite possibly things like capacitors inside them that store a little electrical energy to compensate for any breaks in the circuit.

The couplings are not really the issue, as clearly there are automatic couplers of various kinds, and have been for years.

Cheers, NeMo

[Southerngooner]

It depends very much on the whole package. Well laid electrofrog trackwork, good rail joiners plus additional electrical wiring, the right locos.......all these are needed to make a layout work well. We have 08's and 03/4's that don't run that well, and Jinties that run like a dream, even over point runs and on curves. Anything is possible, but if you want gravity, bulk and inertia, N is not your scale!

[grid078]

I think we should clarify that on James st we rarely use 03/08's to shunt with, as has been mentioned due to reliability, we choose the super shunter route, usually a class 20 (goods yard)and I believe either a 27 or 33 in the dock yard. To my knowledge nobody to date has pointed out that we don't use shunting engines (03/08). Most people probably are not aware of what is prototypical correct.

Regards Stuart

[martyn]

And as a note about Stuart (Grid78) comment: another reason with using BoBo diesels is for 'grunt'; the 03,04, and 08 do not seem to have enough weight to reliably shunt the longer trains, especially when reversing. But that's another story.
Dave also makes the point about B+B reliability: as I said, we don't get 100%, but we are getting quite close, and closer every exhibition (fingers crossed).
At Southwold we ran a Jinty over the entire length of the layout with a short pick up goods and proved that it could be done. But another Jinty proved unreliable as a yard shunter when trialling at home, and so didn't get used at exhibitions.
Martyn