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Author Topic: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List  (Read 11149 times)

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Online davidinyork

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2018, 06:39:41 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

Offline Dalek

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2018, 06:48:13 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

Thanks David.

I see you can also get sort of "intelligent" sound that works without pressing a multitude of buttons to play various sounds based on how you are driving, idel, revs up etc. I much prefer that idea, is that a Next-18 only thing or can you get this with other sound decoders ? Do all decoders use the same function keys for the same functions ? Horn, brake squeal etc ?

Sorry for going a bit off topic  :sorrysign:

Craig

Online njee20

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2018, 07:00:03 pm »
All sound chips will have a load of sounds that just work all the time - engine starting, revs increasing/decreasing, brake sound etc. You then have the other Ďad hocí noises accessed via functions buttons; horns, couplers, doors etc. These are not standard function keys, but can usually be remapped.

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2018, 07:46:32 pm »

Re: re-tooling locos to accommodate speakers etc I'd be concerned about loss of mass too. The old (non-DCC friendly) Dapol 66s were great haulers, then they removed a load of material to make way for a decoder and they're now nowhere near as good, indeed verging on inadequate I'd say. No idea what the 47 is like, but would be a shame if they went on to compromise locos like the 60, which can still manage prototypical trains with ease.

They will invent traction tyres to improve adhesion, though seem to work well on my Kato locomotives and TGVs/Eurostars with 16 cars. Think I should get my coat and hat........
Mike

Over-user of brackets and quotation marks.

Wondering how many pedants can dance of the head of a pin.


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Offline Dsolds

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2018, 09:18:13 pm »
Just read this entire thread and found it very interesting indeed. Diesel isn't my thing but it's really cool to see all the different options available now, especially compared to what I remember in OO as a kid. Probably just increased my diesel knowledge 500% as well.

Overall though, as a newbie in N, I think it's good to see the manufacturers investing in new models, even if some are only minor tweaks. It hasn't always been that way. I also understand the gripes about increased costs of DCC with sound. Those parts cost pence to make but the integration of it all has a cost which increases the price to everyone, not good if you don't especially want sound or are a DC guy. Just being DCC and sound ready means tooling changes so it has to add cost to the base DC running unit.

As for all those numbers you guys are on about, I doff my virtual cap to you. I'm still learning and really I just play trains compared to the real modellers amongst you all.

Having said diesel isn't my thing, that Midland Pullman set looks handsome. Anyone know the going rate for a kidney?  :laugh:

Offline Roy L S

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #80 on: January 08, 2018, 10:17:38 pm »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

The Zimo 6 pin plug and play sound chip may not be that hard to fit in a 31 although the microcube speaker may need to be located in one of the cabs. I have done a 24 this way and to be honest with just a touch of dirt on the windows you would never know.

Roy
Roy

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #81 on: January 08, 2018, 11:53:20 pm »
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.

It's interesting to consider, and there's a fair amount of info out there to hypothesise with.

Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].

So that does bring us back to Bachmann - if 3 or 4 livery applications pays tooling off, then basically the first 'batch' of liveries delivered must mostly cover it, and that's what I was really meaning, but perhaps was excessively sloppy with terminology. This would imply Bachmann need to sell between 3024 and 4032 (assuming a run is still the 1008 it was reported to be in the past) to pay the tooling cost. This seems credible - if it were double that, 8 runs say,  then absolutely none of their tooling would be fully paid off yet (seems highly unlikely?). So whilst the 350 may be a less good example (though there's been 3 runs already, but clearly many unsold), there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:

Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
and I'm sure there are plenty others if some analysis was done. There's been no obvious drop (or hold) in prices on later runs of these after the first (or second) batch as Dapol did.

Whilst it sounds like it's just price grumbling, it's actually not so much - this is a real problem that folk in OO are starting to flag up more and more, and it's relevant to N too, is that models that have clearly had tooling paid off that are still being sold at high prices (like the Hornby Railroad range and the classic being the perennial Hornby 0-4-0T that now sells for £35, and has been around and re-run countless times, and is available in a train set for only £10 more) - these would be perfect way to help try to attract folk to the hobby, as current prices are certainly turning now them away - there are a fair few OOers now grumbling at this.

It was the same when Bachmann were churning out old Poole designs - the tooling was certainly largely paid for there!

Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with - but I fear it will actually ultimately have a real detrimental affect on the uptake of the hobby in the medium to long term. 

That will hurt everyone.

That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!

Whichever wording the sentiment is the same - they've basically liquidated that stock unbelievably fast as a result of it being DCC sound - 2 or 3 weeks and you can already barely find one. Certainly a way to quickly get the cash back in.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online Snowwolflair

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2018, 12:58:33 am »
Of course you could be right that Bachmann amortise over a single run, but that wouldn't be normal for a company of their size.

It's interesting to consider, and there's a fair amount of info out there to hypothesise with.

Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].

So that does bring us back to Bachmann - if 3 or 4 livery applications pays tooling off, then basically the first 'batch' of liveries delivered must mostly cover it, and that's what I was really meaning, but perhaps was excessively sloppy with terminology. This would imply Bachmann need to sell between 3024 and 4032 (assuming a run is still the 1008 it was reported to be in the past) to pay the tooling cost. This seems credible - if it were double that, 8 runs say,  then absolutely none of their tooling would be fully paid off yet (seems highly unlikely?). So whilst the 350 may be a less good example (though there's been 3 runs already, but clearly many unsold), there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:

Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5
and I'm sure there are plenty others if some analysis was done. There's been no obvious drop (or hold) in prices on later runs of these after the first (or second) batch as Dapol did.

Whilst it sounds like it's just price grumbling, it's actually not so much - this is a real problem that folk in OO are starting to flag up more and more, and it's relevant to N too, is that models that have clearly had tooling paid off that are still being sold at high prices (like the Hornby Railroad range and the classic being the perennial Hornby 0-4-0T that now sells for £35, and has been around and re-run countless times, and is available in a train set for only £10 more) - these would be perfect way to help try to attract folk to the hobby, as current prices are certainly turning now them away - there are a fair few OOers now grumbling at this.

It was the same when Bachmann were churning out old Poole designs - the tooling was certainly largely paid for there!

Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with - but I fear it will actually ultimately have a real detrimental affect on the uptake of the hobby in the medium to long term. 

That will hurt everyone.

That isn't really a cash cow though if you are not getting a higher margin (or possibly a lower margin!). I don't think people can blame them for wanting to shift stock as quickly as possible!

Whichever wording the sentiment is the same - they've basically liquidated that stock unbelievably fast as a result of it being DCC sound - 2 or 3 weeks and you can already barely find one. Certainly a way to quickly get the cash back in.

Cheers,
Alan

A quote from Sir John Trelawny "God forbid we be thought cheap".  i.e. If you give them it cheap once they will expect it always to be cheap and you will struggle to get a descent return on your future products that have much higher production costs.

Offline Dr Al

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2018, 01:35:11 am »
A quote from Sir John Trelawny "God forbid we be thought cheap".  i.e. If you give them it cheap once they will expect it always to be cheap and you will struggle to get a descent return on your future products that have much higher production costs.

I don't think there's any dispute that prices have had to rise because of increasing production costs - that's all well known and less of the point - the point is more about the future, why long tooled models that have had many runs have the same RRP as new toolings etc. It's becoming a fairly big talking point in other scales.

Having said that, the price level has been broadly similar right through the transition from English production to supposedly cheaper Chinese production (which is now not so cheap) - and I wouldn't have said any of these was "cheap". Given they cut costs moving to China at some point in the past 20 years they've clearly made big profits from their range, even if the squeeze is on now - likely in the 2000-2007 is period when they were punting old tool Poole derived models.

I do wonder what the prices would need to reach for a significant number to say "I'm not buying that, it's too much". £200 a loco? £300? more? Clearly some already are at that point - it's a lot if you are on average UK salary of ~£22,000 after tax......

Manufacturers know their market though - is primarily older, with much more significant disposable income than that, and that's what they are playing to. One wonders though, once much of that generation has passed, in 20 years say, where we'll be - I think manufacturers might start to see a significant decline in their fortunes. Hornby already seem to be making some big mistakes and costing themselves big money as a result.

DCC sound'll be dirt cheap by then I'd hope though! I'd expect it to be built in as standard with a switch to turn it off for those who don't fancy it!

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Offline Malcolm

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #84 on: January 09, 2018, 02:00:05 am »
Alas, this is but capitalism, sell for as much as you can get away with
Nope, price it at what you think the market will sustain.

You, the proletariat, will desire something. A capitalist will provide it, at a price. If he gets the price wrong he will fail. if you cant afford his price you will both fail. The answer(-not) is a state subsidy !
The answer may be in crowd (aka proletariat) funding but the best model (it is early days) is yet to be designed.


Offline Dalek

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #85 on: January 09, 2018, 07:46:53 am »
Is the class 31 difficult to add sound to currently ? pre this release ?

Next18 decoder, whats the advantage over the older type ? apart from having sound on board ?

You can tell i'm interested but not done this yet  :)

Next-18 decoders have more functions than 6-pin ones, so there are options for things like control over specific lights, etc.

The existing Class 31 has a 6-pin socket so sound would be a case of hard-wiring, fitting a speaker and possibly having to cut the chassis to make it all fit.

The Zimo 6 pin plug and play sound chip may not be that hard to fit in a 31 although the microcube speaker may need to be located in one of the cabs. I have done a 24 this way and to be honest with just a touch of dirt on the windows you would never know.

Roy
Roy

Thanks for the info Roy, would you happen to have a picture showing fitment per chance ?

Cheers
Craig

Offline red_death

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #86 on: January 09, 2018, 10:41:32 am »
Assuming Dapol's tooling costs are the same (unreasonable??) - they have essentially paid off the tooling in a few runs (whereby terminology here needs tightened - lets call a "run" is one livery application on a tooling) and have said so - they did so with the Ivatt tanks and 45xx's, and offered later runs at lower prices, accepting and stating openly that there were more modern locos about. This does rather imply that the 4 initial liveries (4 'runs') paid off the tooling. [and as an aside, on the later ones some parts were actually retooled, notabily the wheels, so they must have been able to absorb that cost whilst still charging less in real terms for the model].

Whether Dapol's tooling costs are the same is irrelevant if you don't know how many models the tooling is amortised over or whether their business model is the same (it clearly isn't - Farish have their own factory and produce relatively large runs in a few liveries/numbers vs Dapol contract out and produce lower total production runs in more liveries/numbers) . 

It really is that simple and information that you don't have - and without it you can't make those sorts of comparisons.  You can't even assume that the amortisation is the same for every model from Bachmann as they may apply amortisation over a set number or they may vary that number depending on their expectation of how that model will sell ie you would expect to sell many more 37/47/66 than 350s so you might amortise the production across 3000 350s vs 10000 37s.

there are plenty others whereby the tooling simply must be paid for:

Duchess - at least 7 different runs already now
Jubilee - at least 8 runs now
37/0 - at least 6 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 37/4)
47/0 - at least 7 (and here a big proportion of the tooling (i.e. chassis) is shared over other variants e.g. 47/4, 47/7, and some parts from 57)
04 shunter - at least 5

You have no way of knowing that the tooling must have already been paid for unless you know the exact details of Bachmann's accounting policy!



Offline Dr Al

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #87 on: January 09, 2018, 12:21:59 pm »
Whether Dapol's tooling costs are the same is irrelevant if you don't know how many models the tooling is amortised over or whether their business model is the same (it clearly isn't - Farish have their own factory and produce relatively large runs in a few liveries/numbers vs Dapol contract out and produce lower total production runs in more liveries/numbers) . 

It really is that simple and information that you don't have - and without it you can't make those sorts of comparisons.  You can't even assume that the amortisation is the same for every model from Bachmann as they may apply amortisation over a set number or they may vary that number depending on their expectation of how that model will sell ie you would expect to sell many more 37/47/66 than 350s so you might amortise the production across 3000 350s vs 10000 37s.

I can make plenty of hypotheses though, given the numbers that are available (a fair few), plus some degree of logic. Sure, may be wrong, but I've seen no evidence to the contrary so far - and it's *definitely true* for those stated in OO from Hornby.

Given that Farish have their own factory and Dapol 'contract out' that puts another middle man (contractor) between us and the models - which means it's fair to believe Dapol's costs must be higher, or do you know otherwise?

Dapol's runs are well known to often be smaller - often 250, so Dapol's number are entirely relevant as an immediate comparison to Bachmann's 1008 runs. Dapol said the tooling was paid on the Ivatts, that was after 4 'runs' - so that basically means they have paid it off on as few as 1000 models, or as many as 4000 if we take 250 and 1000 as the bounds of a possible production run. Why would Dapol's tooling costs be significantly different to Bachmann - surely it's reasonable to assume they are comparable and of the same order? Therefore, if they pay off their costs on a smaller or similar sized batch, then the questions remain about how Bachmann do it, given their prices are comparable or higher.

Of course it's not that "simple" either, as the tooling cost of a specific model will be very varied given the number of common components they can re-use from existing tooled models.....gears, motors, wheels, wheel components such as axles and insulators, small detail parts like buffers, handrail knobs, coupling hooks, vacuum pipes, valve gear components, bogies - many many of these are shared across a lot of models meaning the apparent costs will be less as they already have those parts. Bachmann do this a lot more than Dapol (having stripped many of both, this is abundantly clear!).

You have no way of knowing that the tooling must have already been paid for unless you know the exact details of Bachmann's accounting policy!

Of course, but one can apply some thought to how it may be - if none of the tooling has been paid off as you imply then surely they will have a huge hole in their bank account - that's just plain! Where's the up front money to tool coming from otherwise? 'Profits' from another model that hasn't paid its tooling off either? Loans? If so then we are basically paying Bachmann's loan interest....lol. Just doesn't seem credible - my impression remains that the first batch (batch, not run) pays off these, unless you can provide more evidence from the industry to the contrary.

The pertinent point remains - when the tooling is paid off (whenever that is is not actually so relevant), will prices follow that like Dapol did? Or will they do a Hornby and milk it for everything they can? I can afford it, but I don't think the latter is great for the hobby as the OO guys and girls are now starting to voice.

Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Roy L S
If Dr Al is online he may be able to provide a more comprehensive answer.

Online davidinyork

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #88 on: January 09, 2018, 12:43:37 pm »
The pertinent point remains - when the tooling is paid off (whenever that is is not actually so relevant), will prices follow that like Dapol did? Or will they do a Hornby and milk it for everything they can? I can afford it, but I don't think the latter is great for the hobby as the OO guys and girls are now starting to voice.

If you look at Hornby HSTs, they are now significantly more expensive than the first batches using the new tooling were when that was introduced 8 or 10 years ago. I'm sure that the much-discussed extra production costs are a factor, but given the size of the increase (when compared to other models) it seems unlikely that this is the whole picture. The RRP of the only power car pair in the 2018 range is £299.99, plus £34.99 each for the trailers (and those use a very old tooling). This does suggest that they might be inflating the prices as high as they think they can go. Not sure what it's doing to the number of units they sell, but I haven't bought any recent ones and I don't imagine I am alone.

In this year's announcements they include another IEP in GW livery, with the power cars and three intermediate trailers as two separate packs. The total RRP comes to £449.98. Granted, this is a new model so there will still be tooling costs, but is this really sustainable for a 5-car multiple unit?

Offline red_death

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Re: Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List
« Reply #89 on: January 09, 2018, 01:10:02 pm »
Given that Farish have their own factory and Dapol 'contract out' that puts another middle man (contractor) between us and the models - which means it's fair to believe Dapol's costs must be higher, or do you know otherwise?

It doesn't make any difference in terms of the number of intermediaries - Farish/Bachmann Europe pay Kader, Dapol pay whichever factory they use.  My point was that different factories have different advantages/disadvantages in terms of tooling/production sizes/livery options etc.

Dapol's runs are well known to often be smaller - often 250, so Dapol's number are entirely relevant as an immediate comparison to Bachmann's 1008 runs. Dapol said the tooling was paid on the Ivatts, that was after 4 'runs' - so that basically means they have paid it off on as few as 1000 models, or as many as 4000 if we take 250 and 1000 as the bounds of a possible production run.

Bachmann produced a minimum of 3 x 1008 ie 3000 per production run (though I think I've seen that they have switched to 4 x 512 on some more recent runs ie 2000 per production run).  So you already have a problem with your figures unless you mean Dapol produced 3000 in one production run.  You don't even know how many Ivatts Dapol produced as they have had variable production run numbers.  The difference in paying off the tooling on a run of 1000 vs 4000 is massive!

Why would Dapol's tooling costs be significantly different to Bachmann - surely it's reasonable to assume they are comparable and of the same order?

I never said that they were different - I don't know and neither do you. I do know that there is significant variation in tooling quotes from different factories.

Of course it's not that "simple" either, as the tooling cost of a specific model will be very varied given the number of common components they can re-use from existing tooled models.....gears, motors, wheels, wheel components such as axles and insulators, small detail parts like buffers, handrail knobs, coupling hooks, vacuum pipes, valve gear components, bogies - many many of these are shared across a lot of models meaning the apparent costs will be less as they already have those parts. Bachmann do this a lot more than Dapol (having stripped many of both, this is abundantly clear!).

Even where the component is superficially identical it will often be from a completely different set of tooling (though from the same design). The factories want to be moulding a complete set of parts for one model not hunting around for various parts from multiple sets of tooling.  If the common parts are from one complete set of tooling eg all the parts for a bogie then the factory might use existing tooling though even that can be difficult to convince them.

if none of the tooling has been paid off as you imply then surely they will have a huge hole in their bank account - that's just plain! Where's the up front money to tool coming from otherwise? 'Profits' from another model that hasn't paid its tooling off either? Loans? If so then we are basically paying Bachmann's loan interest....lol. Just doesn't seem credible - my impression remains that the first batch (batch, not run) pays off these, unless you can provide more evidence from the industry to the contrary.

Oh come on, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. I never said that "none of the tooling had been paid off" - I said you don't know how much or at what rate it is paid off.  It would be unusual to charge the whole tooling to a single production run if you were planning to rerun the tooling. The money for tooling (unless you are crowdfunding) comes from the monies invested by shareholders (that includes retained profits, bank loans, intergroup loans etc).

The pertinent point remains - when the tooling is paid off (whenever that is is not actually so relevant), will prices follow that like Dapol did? Or will they do a Hornby and milk it for everything they can? I can afford it, but I don't think the latter is great for the hobby as the OO guys and girls are now starting to voice.

If you are right then it isn't pertinent as they will have made little return on their first runs and are making their returns on the subsequent runs - it is exactly what you would expect. Quite why Dapol reduced their price is beyond me unless they were looking to sell greater volume at lower margins...



 

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