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Author Topic: The Train Shed Project - Marton Hinmarche  (Read 135378 times)

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Offline lil chris

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #150 on: November 09, 2016, 12:05:28 pm »
I have a powercab based system, I have a smart booster an 4 circuit breakers to split the layout up and it works well. When I first started I could not get things to work my soldering skills needed improving, I did at first solder the drop wires under the rails. I found using a liquid clean flux and dcc concepts sapphire solder it us easier to solder to the side of the rail. I tin the rail and the wire first, I drill a small hole next to the joint and then poke the tinned wire up from below and just place it against the rail and touch it with the iron. Once ballasted you hardly know it's there but it is easy to repair if required, you do need a steady hand of course. My soldering station has variable heat control I think that is what enables just the touch required plus it has extra power for soldering to my bus  cables for which I have used 3 core mains with the earth removed.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 05:46:33 pm by lil chris »
Lil Chris
My layout here East Lancashire Lines
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29492.0

Offline pctrainman

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #151 on: November 09, 2016, 12:30:16 pm »
Like Chris I have used solid core mains cable for the DCC bus and twisted it as it apparently helps reduce crosstalk or summat like that between the wires , I soldered to rail bottoms using a 40 watt iron with a fine tip and used a non residue liquid flux designed for electronics and have had no problems at all , I use Railcom so the layout is divided into zones by the use of insulated joiners on the inner rails .

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #152 on: November 09, 2016, 06:17:02 pm »
Thank you both for the advice about using droppers with DCC.  I don't envisage any problems with the bus wires because I'm using bare tinned copper wire (TCW) running the length of each baseboard, with a spacing of 8 - 10 inches between them.  The bus wires are connected between boards by colour coded plugs and sockets.  I will try using droppers without insulation between rails in a progressive manner, so that I can monitor any problems before they become serious.  An oscilloscope would be useful in this respect, but I don't have one and, indeed, it may be a bit over the top.  In the final analysis, I could invest in sufficient insulated rail joiners to ensure that each rail length is isolated so that there can be no circulation currents.  However, I hope it won't come to that.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Offline lil chris

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #153 on: November 10, 2016, 12:34:41 am »
I think you are worrying about the dcc signal too much, like I said in my last post I have split my layout into 4 sections using PSX circuit breakers. I have my fiddle yard board, I have my station board where I have 2 sections the up line and goods yard and the down line, the rest of the layout is on the 4th breaker. There are two crossovers between the up and down lines on the station both with insulated joiners but you would have those on dc running. The only other insul joiners are on the live frog rails  on the points, my layout is semi modular so the are breaks between each board separating each section. I have droppers on every piece of track connected to the bus which runs underneath, I have left the insulation on the cables apart from where the droppers are soldered to it but I stagger the joins to avoid problems. Because my layout is modular I have leads with bananna plugs to connect each board. Here are a few pics 1st is some track with side soldered rail droppers you can see two arrows pointing to the droppers, to the left is were the track is soldered to screws on the board end,it is covered by a bridge, that was my first attempt I got better honest. 2nd a pic of the drop wires to the bus and the last pic of the bananna plugs.


« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 12:37:05 am by lil chris »
Lil Chris
My layout here East Lancashire Lines
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29492.0

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #154 on: November 10, 2016, 07:32:33 am »
Thanks for the advice and the excellent pictures, Chris.  I can't show you any pics of my own yet because I am still waiting on the baseboards.  Hopefully there will be some news by the end of the week.  When I go back down to the train shed, I'll try and take a couple of pics of my trial efforts.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #155 on: November 10, 2016, 08:58:09 am »
Here are some pics of my test efforts.  The first is the busbar arrangement. 


The busbars will run from one of a baseboard to the other passing through holes in the cross members, one busbar per hole.  The solder tags will actually be fixed to the end members rather than to the bottom of the boards, as suggested here.  Between boards, I will be using these connectors:


My first attempts at droppers were not actually droppers at all.  I was using this piece of track for experimental soldering and decided to use it as a test track to check all the new locos and perform the initial programming of the DCC chips.  So here the "droppers" are just connections to the programming changeover switch, soldered to the bottom of the rails.  I will practice making side connections while I wait for the baseboards to arrive.

With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Offline pctrainman

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #156 on: November 10, 2016, 02:15:45 pm »
I must admit that I do have some reservations about your use of uninsulated wire not because of the small voltages involved but because of considerations such as this                                                                                                            "A well-engineered cable is comprised of many crucial independent elements. Recently shielding has become just as critical as any other design element. The growing complexity of today’s communications and control systems, coupled with the increased distances signal and control communications are required to travel, have exponentially increased electrical interference (noise) related failures. Depending on the application, cables can be adversely affected by EMI/RFI/ESI (electromagnetic interference, radio frequency interference, electrostatic interference) also known as ‘signal interference.’ To combat the effects of signal interference proper shielding is vital.

According to industry technical data there are essentially four sources of signal interference.

Static Noise: Occurs when an electrical field distorts the signal and can be mitigated using continuous foil shields which offer 100% shielding efficiency and appropriate grounding techniques.

Magnetic Noise: Comes from large AC motors, transformers, and knife switches, and can set up current flows in opposition to the instrument. The simplest and best means of eliminating magnetic noise is through the use of twisted pair signal wiring.

Common Mode Noise: Results from current flowing between different potential grounds located at various points within a system. Solving this issue requires a carefully engineered and properly installed power and grounding system.

Crosstalk: Refers to the super imposing of the pulsed DC or standard AC signals between two or more nearby wires or cables. The most effective means of mitigation is individually shielded twisted pairs. "

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #157 on: November 10, 2016, 07:08:12 pm »
Thanks for the reply about bare conductors.  Fortunately, I spent about half my working life working in electronics so I have reason to be confident about my proposed methods.  The issue about screening applies mainly to signal frequencies greater than about 10 MHz, in which case, the cables would need to be screened cables, the ideal being co-ax.  However, the DCC signals are in the mid-audio frequency (AF) range and should be immune from such effects.  The big issue at such frequencies is common mode noise, which is the concern I made about isolating each track supply.  Strictly speaking, a bus system is off limits: each supply should be taken directly from a common point.  However, it is clear from other people's experience of DCC that it does not seem to be an issue and bus systems are widely used.  If the busbars are very close together it may be wise to twist them together, but this is usually only required for signals in the mA or uA region.  In my case there will be at least 8 inches separation between the bus wires, so I don't expect any problems.  However, thank you for you post, which is much appreciated.

At last the replacement Class 5 has arrived and I have tested it, fitted the chip and programmed it.  I found that I didn't need to remove the tender body.  By removing the coal, you can use a small pair of angle-nosed pliers to remove the blanking board and the chip can be inserted by hand, with a final push with the pliers to ensure it is securely located.


I had a go with side droppers today.  I cut the track runner near the end, opposite an existing gap and slid the sleepers away from the soldering site.  I clamped the rail in the jaws of my 30 year old workmate.  I then tinned the sides of the rails and the ends of the wires, having first bent each into a right angle about 3 mm from the end.  The iron was applied to the end of the wire and the rail as I held them together by hand.  I then slid the sleepers back into position.  You can see the results here.



Of course, I need a bit more practice to get back into the swing of things and make a really neat job of it.  I found the 25W Weller iron that I bought recently to be unsatisfactory, although back in my electronics days, I always used a Weller. So, reading what others had written, I invested in a 25W Antex and I must say the difference was astounding.  My little 15W Antex was hardly man enough for the job, but this was exactly what I wanted.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Offline lil chris

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #158 on: November 10, 2016, 08:47:25 pm »
Something that you might find handy Laurence is one of these,they are only £5. I have modded mine by adding a couple of wires to make it more flexible in use. They are very good for checking the frog polarity is correct on points after you have wired them and that current is getting to each piece of track.http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=TTTT1&style=&strType=&Mcode=Train+Tech+TT1
Lil Chris
My layout here East Lancashire Lines
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=29492.0

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #159 on: November 10, 2016, 08:54:23 pm »
This is one of two layouts where I want to see trains running probably more than the builders!
This is the other..........
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30692.msg409947#msg409947
@Milton Rail

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #160 on: November 10, 2016, 09:14:21 pm »
Thanks Chris.  I've ordered one.  I plan to connect the frogs via the C/O switch on the PM1 point motors.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Offline Croxy

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #161 on: November 10, 2016, 09:25:55 pm »
I bought a variable wattage soldering iron which seems to do the trick nicely as you can dial in the "sweet spot" for various jobs.....while I understand why you aren't concerned about you bus wires due to their separation, I'm just curious as to why you would opt for bare wires over insulated ones. I used insulated ones and then used self tapping connectors which worked very well......

Just curious...I suppose it makes it easy to solder any connecting wires without having to worry about stripping out a small section of insulation........thanks, Mark.
If you like it run it......

Offline Milton Rail

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #162 on: November 10, 2016, 10:58:51 pm »
This is one of two layouts where I want to see trains running probably more than the builders!
This is the other..........
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=30692.msg409947#msg409947
@Milton Rail


On that front..... I have wired up 50% of power district one, which is tullibardine & Muthill, and it worked (dirty track in the tunnel aside) on DC, not plugged in DCC yet.... but I am getting a short when I throw the passing loop point at tullIbardine, it all stops.... not sure if it's a quirk of DC or a track fault... will explore it more in my thread!  I think i will need some help, but progress has slowed now that trains are running!..... I am sure someone keeps saying that  :D

Offline Innovationgame

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #163 on: November 11, 2016, 06:42:30 am »
The original concept of a busbar comes from power distribution boards where there is a solid copper conductor running the length of the board so that outputs can be tapped into it at any point along its length.  I have simply miniaturised the concept.  Because I am wiring up the base board frames before I fix the top boards and lay the track, it makes sense (to me at least) to allow for a tap in to the bus at any point as yet unknown.  The idea of wiring up the frames first means that I can work from the top in situ, rather than either scambling underneath or up-ending the boards.

Incidentally, the power bus to the Digikeijs decoders for the point motors will simply be twin flex power cable because it is pure DC and will connect to known positions located at the end of the boards.  Each decoder will be located next to the end solder tags and I will connect the feeds to each decoder directly to the solder tags.

The short when switching points sounds like a lack of insulation between the frog of a live frog point and the continuation rail.  Of course there may be other causes, but I would have it down as favourite.  I hope this helps.
With kind regards
Laurence
My personal website is a bit of a mish mash
www.innovationgame.com

Online Bealman

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Re: The Train Shed Project
« Reply #164 on: November 11, 2016, 07:28:29 am »
While I'm a DC Dino, early on I ran a bare copper lighting bus the full length of my branchline, so I could plonk a building anywhere and light it up from the bus.
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

 

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